Ariadne Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Oh and Ariadne, I couldn't disagree with you more on that one. We wouldn't still be married (and happily at that) if it weren't for the fact that we negotiated our expectations along the way. You only negotiate when you are not on the same page. And people that get along well usually are. For what I recall, you had to negotiate about how to deal with his ex wife. And that was because he was trying to be nice and you had to step in to straighten things up. (Which I'm sure he was thankful for, because he didn't know how to get out of that one.)
Star Gazer Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Oh well we were engaged when I moved in 5 months before we got married but still...I really agree with Art. And I don't get it. And I wish Hubby and you, Star would explain it to me. You both haven't come up with a satisfactory answer (and you're both lawyers! ) What gives? It's not an absolute, it's just the way I see it. There are levels in a relationship. This is how I see the levels (generically stated): (1) dating, (2) committed dating, (3) engagement, (4) living together, (5) marriage. In my eyes, each one is its own unique step. No two levels are the same. Your hubby probably sees it the same way. On the other hand, you, LB and Art see it this way: (1) dating, (2) committed dating, (3) marriage-like or marriage-in-fact (interchangeable).
Touche Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 It's not an absolute, it's just the way I see it. There are levels in a relationship. This is how I see the levels (generically stated): (1) dating, (2) committed dating, (3) engagement, (4) living together, (5) marriage. In my eyes, each one is its own unique step. No two levels are the same. Your hubby probably sees it the same way. On the other hand, you, LB and Art see it this way: (1) dating, (2) committed dating, (3) marriage-like or marriage-in-fact (interchangeable). Yes, I know he sees it like what you described here too but I still don't get how that translates into EXPECTATIONS. Why would they be different? I get that you (both) think they're different but I don't get HOW. Ariadne, yes. We did have to negotiate on that one. But there were other things too. I mean it wasn't a constant thing but things have (and I'm sure will) come up that we have to compromise and negotiate about. Fortunately, we're on the same page about most things. So yeah, I see what you're saying about that.
I Luv the Chariot OH Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 3) The guy wants to get "trashed" with his buddies. Seems like his mentality is in Spring Break or something. Really? Their relationship is in "serious trouble" because of that? I think it's something closer to, oh I don't know, him being a normal, social, 20-something-year-old guy. But I guess it would be better if he was a hermit with no friends and just stayed inside and watched TV alone all day, right? I agree with AC...I've been seeing your threads for a long time LB, and although I don't always agree with you, I think your relationship is mature and strong and it will work out in the end.
Star Gazer Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Yes, I know he sees it like what you described here too but I still don't get how that translates into EXPECTATIONS. Why would they be different? I get that you (both) think they're different but I don't get HOW. Are there different expectations between just dating and marriage? Just dating and living together? Just dating and committed dating? There are, aren't there? Or are you saying the moment you go out on a date with someone, the same expectations as in marriage exist? Each level carries increased expectations, responsibilities, and commitment. Marriage is the ultimate commitment. You can't have the ultimate commitment, the ultimate responsiblities, the ultimate expectations if you're not, in fact, married.
AriaIncognito Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 We wouldn't still be married (and happily at that) if it weren't for the fact that we negotiated our expectations along the way. Just because we love each other doesn't mean we can read each others' minds you know. I agree with this 1000%. If you go into a relationship expecting things to just "naturally" work out because youre in love, then well, you've got a lot to learn about being in a relationship. No 2 people are the same. There is always going to be something you'll need to discuss. Some sort of conflict. I've been learning a good deal about the need to communicate with my current bf. Sometimes, we have totally different takes on a situation, and as it turns out, we could have avoided misunderstanding had we talked about our take when it occurred rather than down the line, however long that may be. It's incredibly important and respectable that LB and her bf do seem to at least make the valiant attempt at communication. It takes time to develop the skill, 30+ years and I'm still learning, I'd venture to guess that there are people on here twice my age that can still say the same thing. As for living together isn't like marriage, well, I have to disagree with that. It does indeed feel like marriage. No, you don't have the piece of paper, but if you're living as a "couple" then I'd expect the same respect I'd have in a marriage. I would also give the same respect that I'd expect. It's common courtesy to let someone know if you're late, whether you live with them or not, to be honest. People worry about people. I don't see anything wrong with the fact that she expected he let her know.
Touche Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Are there different expectations between just dating and marriage? Just dating and living together? Just dating and committed dating? There are, aren't there? Or are you saying the moment you go out on a date with someone, the same expectations as in marriage exist? Each level carries increased expectations, responsibilities, and commitment. Marriage is the ultimate commitment. You can't have the ultimate commitment, the ultimate responsiblities, the ultimate expectations if you're not, in fact, married. No, of course it's different when you're just dating. But when you're living together at the very minimum, for example, shouldn't you be expected to "check in" with your SO. Otherise how is that different than just being roommates. It also indicates to me that he's not ready for marriage. What's the point in living with someone you love? Just to split the rent? You can get a roommate for that.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 I agree with this 1000%. If you go into a relationship expecting things to just "naturally" work out because youre in love, then well, you've got a lot to learn about being in a relationship. No 2 people are the same. There is always going to be something you'll need to discuss. Some sort of conflict. I've been learning a good deal about the need to communicate with my current bf. Sometimes, we have totally different takes on a situation, and as it turns out, we could have avoided misunderstanding had we talked about our take when it occurred rather than down the line, however long that may be. It's incredibly important and respectable that LB and her bf do seem to at least make the valiant attempt at communication. It takes time to develop the skill, 30+ years and I'm still learning, I'd venture to guess that there are people on here twice my age that can still say the same thing. As for living together isn't like marriage, well, I have to disagree with that. It does indeed feel like marriage. No, you don't have the piece of paper, but if you're living as a "couple" then I'd expect the same respect I'd have in a marriage. I would also give the same respect that I'd expect. It's common courtesy to let someone know if you're late, whether you live with them or not, to be honest. People worry about people. I don't see anything wrong with the fact that she expected he let her know. Yeah, he says I was giving him a hard time when I said I wished he would have called and told me he was going to be late. I wish he would have even had the courtesy to live early like he said he would. His friend probably had influence over that though, I have no doubt. As for going out with his friends..I have told him before that I have no problem with him hanging out with his friends. I do expect him to show me the courtesy of committing to spending time with ME too. I think he may be torn between "guy world" and "committed boyfriend" world. Like many of you have said, he may be comfused about how to manage the two without losing either one. We really do communicate well. I don't believe that our relationship is "headed down hill" I just think we have some things we need to work out. When issues come up we are usually able to work them out fairly effectively. I plan on talking to him tonight in a mature and calm way and hope that we will be able to work through whatever is the issue here.
Touche Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Oh, Aria I saw your post after I posted. Yes, we agree. I agreed with everything you said too. I don't understand why the expectations should be different if you're living with your SO as opposed to being married. I'm still waiting for LB or SG or someone (or H for that matter) to tell me WHAT expectations should be different.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 No, of course it's different when you're just dating. But when you're living together at the very minimum, for example, shouldn't you be expected to "check in" with your SO. Otherise how is that different than just being roommates. It also indicates to me that he's not ready for marriage. What's the point in living with someone you love? Just to split the rent? You can get a roommate for that. Yeah, that's one of the things I need to find out.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 Oh, Aria I saw your post after I posted. Yes, we agree. I agreed with everything you said too. I don't understand why the expectations should be different if you're living with your SO as opposed to being married. I'm still waiting for LB or SG or someone (or H for that matter) to tell me WHAT expectations should be different. Well, I guess to each his own. It IS like we are married honestly. We share finances, a bed, chores, laundry, grocery shopping, ect. I guess because there ISN'T that ultimate final committment in place that the expectations aren't the same. I mean, we aren't married, we don't have joint bank accounts, share insurance, own property, own cars together, ect. Most everything we have is still seperate. So I guess thats how it is different, I don't think it's the same kind of "serious and binding" committments as you have when you are married and living together. Then again, there are some people who aren't married who still do all that (share property, cars, ect.) so I suppose in that reality they just don't have the committment in front of God so thats what makes it different.
Art_Critic Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Each level carries increased expectations, responsibilities, and commitment. Marriage is the ultimate commitment. You can't have the ultimate commitment, the ultimate responsiblities, the ultimate expectations if you're not, in fact, married. I don't think it is fair to say that marriage is the ultimate commitment.. have you tried to have and raise a child ? I do think marriage is the end game.. it is the reason we date.. the reason we get close to one another and the reason why we decide to live with someone and share our lives/bed with them. Of course each level has it's own level of responsibilities.. Otherwise you would be asking the guy on the first date to pay your car payment There are many people who live together and have children and never marry.. are you saying that they are not committed to one another ?.. they are... When LB and her BF decided to live together they discussed that marriage was in the future of the type of life they were pursuing.. So living together in her example is two people living together as a couple who are working towards marriage.. They are not roommates... They spend the holidays together.. they go over each other families houses and sit in their families living rooms as a couple living together working toward marriage. They cook and pay bills the same way.. Of course the legal responsibility of marriage isn't there but most of the other good stuff already is...
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 I don't think it is fair to say that marriage is the ultimate commitment.. have you tried to have and raise a child ? I do think marriage is the end game.. it is the reason we date.. the reason we get close to one another and the reason why we decide to live with someone and share our lives/bed with them. Of course each level has it's own level of responsibilities.. Otherwise you would be asking the guy on the first date to pay your car payment There are many people who live together and have children and never marry.. are you saying that they are not committed to one another ?.. they are... When LB and her BF decided to live together they discussed that marriage was in the future of the type of life they were pursuing.. So living together in her example is two people living together as a couple who are working towards marriage.. They are not roommates... They spend the holidays together.. they go over each other families houses and sit in their families living rooms as a couple living together working toward marriage. They cook and pay bills the same way.. Of course the legal responsibility of marriage isn't there but most of the other good stuff already is... This is the exact same way I see it as well. And we DID go into this with the understanding that we are working towards marriage. That expectation was and still is there. I was thinking about it, and I honestly don't think my bf thinks I'm some spoiled little brat. If he did he probably wouldnt be with me or have moved in with me. I "rehearsed" what I am going to say tonight. I will post it here if anyone is interested and wants to critique it. (i don't know exactly what he is going to say, but this is just sort of his listening and my talking) Me: Okay babe I need to talk to you. BF: Oh geez, are you pregnant? (he always adds that for a joke, it's a joke between us). Me: No. Anyway, I was thinking about what we were working out last night and I just wanted to try to discuss it rationally. BF: Okay. Me: I really want things to work out between us. I love you and I love living with you. I really think we can make this work and are doing a good job. BF: Okay Me: As far as last night goes, I was thinking about what you said. Yes, I admit that I can make little spoiled comments sometimes. Just like you have a tendency to give parental lectures. It's ACTIONS that we both don't like. And they can be changed. But the way I see it, I love you even though you will give the occasional lecture. It doesn't make me want to live with you less or be with you less. Can you work on it? Yes. But it isn't something that I would leave you over. BF: Yes I know. Me: I really hope that you feel this way too. I think that we can really make this work, I just think we need to make sure we are on the same page. I feel like we need to be committed to each other, and that we are not "just roommates." I know we are not married, but checking in with me, giving me the respect of consulting with me on important decisions and reaching a compromise. Those are all things committed couples do. BF: Yeah. Me: I just wanted to tell you that I love you more than anything and I love living with you. I know we can work this out and I really want to try.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 Can I critique it? Yes, of course! That's why I posted it.
Touche Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Yes, of course! That's why I posted it. Ok, LB. Well I thought it was nice but it had too much about what YOU want. I really want this and I was thinking that and I etc. etc. I mean you said some nice things but you're not really saying anything that opens up the conversation for negotiation and compromise in my opinion. The way it should be approached maybe is this way: "What do you think we can do next time so that we don't have this argument again?" And then I'd say: "How about this?" And I'd suggest this: I'd ask him if maybe he can give you a window of when he'll be home if he doesn't want to give you an exact time. Would you agree to that? That's kind of a compromise right? See I'd make him part of the solution. Engage him that way. Not like he's part of the problem. Like it's BOTH your issue to solve - for the good of the relationship. Not just yours. I do like what you said at the end though. So what do you think?
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 Ok, LB. Well I thought it was nice but it had too much about what YOU want. I really want this and I was thinking that and I etc. etc. I mean you said some nice things but you're not really saying anything that opens up the conversation for negotiation and compromise in my opinion. The way it should be approached maybe is this way: "What do you think we can do next time so that we don't have this argument again?" And then I'd say: "How about this?" And I'd suggest this: I'd ask him if maybe he can give you a window of when he'll be home if he doesn't want to give you an exact time. Would you agree to that? That's kind of a compromise right? See I'd make him part of the solution. Engage him that way. Not like he's part of the problem. Like it's BOTH your issue to solve - for the good of the relationship. Not just yours. I do like what you said at the end though. So what do you think? See, this is why I'm asking the wiser LSers here! (in relationships anyway). Hmm, I think you are right about the fact that I was making it about me. That's a good idea to make it about "us" and try to reach a compromise. Now, that solves that part of the argument, but how can I approach everything else? I mean clearly there are other issues here.
Touche Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 See, this is why I'm asking the wiser LSers here! (in relationships anyway). Hmm, I think you are right about the fact that I was making it about me. That's a good idea to make it about "us" and try to reach a compromise. Now, that solves that part of the argument, but how can I approach everything else? I mean clearly there are other issues here. LOL, that made me laugh...I mean the part about being wise in relationships at least. About everything else we're dunces! ahaha. Ok, I'm joking. Ok, take one thing at a time. Don't try to solve everything all at once. Take what's most important to you and deal with that first. But what do you think are the other issues you refer to? I mean I'd like to hear it in your own words.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 LOL, that made me laugh...I mean the part about being wise in relationships at least. About everything else we're dunces! ahaha. Ok, I'm joking. Ok, take one thing at a time. Don't try to solve everything all at once. Take what's most important to you and deal with that first. But what do you think are the other issues you refer to? I mean I'd like to hear it in your own words. Well, now I'm worried about what SG and others were saying about him having doubts about living together. In my heart I would like to think that is not true and that he loves living with me like he says he does. I do think he may be adjusting a little now that he feels he doesnt have freedom to do whatever he wants to. I am going to try to cut out the bratty comments, I know I make them sometimes. I know some others on here disagree, but our relationship IS really strong and healthy..for people in their 20's anyway. We are both trying to adjust to living together I think, and it's just going to take some practice on both our parts. The issues I suppose I am referring to are that this really isn't what he wants. Also that he did criticize me fairly hard last night and he did say that the thing he "hates" about me is that I can be negative and make bratty comments. I tried to tell him that it's not ME, but it's my actions. I don't think he realizes the difference between the two, therefore it makes me feel bad about myself and like I'm not good enough. Which in turn confuses me when he goes back to being lovey dovey and telling me he can't live without me. These aren't resolved issues, as they come up every time we fight. Also the "my friends don't like you" stuff.
Star Gazer Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 I was going to say the same thing T did. The relationship isn't all about you and what you want, so don't make the conversation about you and what you want. Also, don't bring up things you don't like about him in your discussion, even if it's by way of example. Don't get off track. Keep the focus on what you should be talking about: your level of commitment to one another and how to show that to one another.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 I was going to say the same thing T did. The relationship isn't all about you and what you want, so don't make the conversation about you and what you want. Also, don't bring up things you don't like about him in your discussion, even if it's by way of example. Don't get off track. Keep the focus on what you should be talking about: your level of commitment to one another and how to show that to one another. Yeah thats something else I was thinking about to. I guess I was just trying to work out some issues, but I don't know how to go about doing that WITHOUT trying to work through what actions we don't like that each other does.
Star Gazer Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 The issues I suppose I am referring to are that this really isn't what he wants. Also that he did criticize me fairly hard last night and he did say that the thing he "hates" about me is that I can be negative and make bratty comments. I tried to tell him that it's not ME, but it's my actions. I don't think he realizes the difference between the two, therefore it makes me feel bad about myself and like I'm not good enough. Which in turn confuses me when he goes back to being lovey dovey and telling me he can't live without me. These aren't resolved issues, as they come up every time we fight. Also the "my friends don't like you" stuff. Honestly, LB...... people don't repeatedly, time and time again, act like a brat, unless...well, they ARE a brat. If it acts like a brat and talks like a brat... So stop being one, period. I say that out of love, I hope you know that.
Star Gazer Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 Yeah thats something else I was thinking about to. I guess I was just trying to work out some issues, but I don't know how to go about doing that WITHOUT trying to work through what actions we don't like that each other does. One thing at a time. You can't work out other issues you have with one another if you don't FIRST establish how committed you are to this relationship. Otherwise, you'll turn tonight's convo into a b*tch-fest, and you don't want that.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 Honestly, LB...... people don't repeatedly, time and time again, act like a brat, unless...well, they ARE a brat. If it acts like a brat and talks like a brat... So stop being one, period. I say that out of love, I hope you know that. Yeah the thing is, I DON'T act like a brat time and time again. I don't think he REALLY thinks thats who I am or else he wouldn't be living with me or be even dating me. I am a very nice and caring person, not some spoiled little bratty girl who always needs to have everything. There are occasional comments, but it's not my personality by all means.
Author Lauriebell82 Posted July 14, 2008 Author Posted July 14, 2008 One thing at a time. You can't work out other issues you have with one another if you don't FIRST establish how committed you are to this relationship. Otherwise, you'll turn tonight's convo into a b*tch-fest, and you don't want that. Yeah thats what Touche said. I can see why you guys are saying that.
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