sunshinegirl Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 I think you're mostly right. Except she never allowed herself to rely on me at all for anything. My ex was never vulnerable with me. Never let me in, never let me be there for him emotionally, certainly never let himself 'need' me.
Storyrider Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Maybe we should define "intimacy" then. In this case it means "being cared about". We're not talking about a fear of acting intimately. We're more talking about a fear of being loved for real. Well, love is an abstract but you can only experience it in concrete moments with the other person, so I'm not sure what you mean.
Nemo Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Seems contradictory, if you look at what Star has actually accepted from guys. It seems more accurate to think that maybe she's afraid that it will exceed her expectations. It's easier to put up with crap, and be pleasantly surprised on occasion, than to deal with a "perfect" situation that may crumble at any time. Often, expectations are matched to the circumstances.
Author johan Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 I suppose everyone has a fear of intimacy to some degree. My ex? I am speculating but at this point I think he may be incapable of having an intimate relationship. He is shockingly cut off from his feelings, intellectualizes everything, holds everyone at bay, rarely self-discloses, and can't empathize with others. His 12-year marriage was, by all accounts, bad and getting worse from the early years onward. As I understand it, his wife eventually left him for a man she could get close to, emotionally speaking. I think I made the mistake of falling in love with his potential for intimacy. He would say I got him to open up (or at least talk) more than anyone else, but he still ultimately fled the relationship by cheating. I had my own reasons for choosing someone so closed off, not as much fear of intimacy as replaying old patterns with unavailable partners. I recommend the book to you as well. It's what got me started on this thread. I just thought that it hits so many points perfectly. And your ex sounds like exactly the kind of person they are writing about. I started to read it because I wanted to rationalize what happened with my ex and what seeing her recently brought to the surface for me. But I got more interested in applying it to myself.
sunshinegirl Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Well, love is an abstract but you can only experience it in concrete moments with the other person, so I'm not sure what you mean. Doesn't it boil down to fear of being rejected if you let yourself really be known by somebody else?
Author johan Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 Well, love is an abstract but you can only experience it in concrete moments with the other person, so I'm not sure what you mean. Love is an abstract only if you aren't capable of feeling it. I feel like you think of love more as something you do, versus something you feel. Another way to define the topic is the fear of allowing someone to really care about you. The fear of accepting those feelings.
Lovelybird Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 I get it. If you don't have any fear of intimacy, then you must be a flasher. some people aren't very sure about themselves, they didn't sort out the most inner being of themselves, so they are afraid to show others, afraid what others might think about them, especially afraid to show real self to the one that they care about
Nemo Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Doesn't it boil down to fear of being rejected if you let yourself really be known by somebody else? Sure. Fear of rejection, fear of dependence, fear of the pressure of being constantly at your best, fear of giving much more than you get in return, fear of fear itself...
Storyrider Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 It's easier to put up with crap, and be pleasantly surprised on occasion, than to deal with a "perfect" situation that may crumble at any time. Often, expectations are matched to the circumstances. And it is easier to ask only a little and get only a little, than to ask for exactly what you want only to be disappointed.
Nemo Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 , they didn't sort out the most inner being of themselves, so they are afraid to show others, That's a very interesting point. If you don't know who you really are, then you could be afraid that you might change, and the love will evaporate.
Nemo Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 And it is easier to ask only a little and get only a little, than to ask for exactly what you want only to be disappointed. Absolutely. You can have an inch from me anytime you want.
Storyrider Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Love is an abstract only if you aren't capable of feeling it. I feel like you think of love more as something you do, versus something you feel. Another way to define the topic is the fear of allowing someone to really care about you. The fear of accepting those feelings. I'm thinking of ways we give and receive love with another person, which is always through words or touching or some kind of interaction, right? You can only open up to someone else by telling them and showing them, and people have different ways of doing that.
Storyrider Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 some people aren't very sure about themselves, they didn't sort out the most inner being of themselves, so they are afraid to show others, afraid what others might think about them, especially afraid to show real self to the one that they care about Or afraid to see the real self of the one they care about because they might not like it.
Author johan Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 I'm thinking of ways we give and receive love with another person, which is always through words or touching or some kind of interaction, right? You can only open up to someone else by telling them and showing them, and people have different ways of doing that. That's right, to an extent. My ex would certainly react poorly if I acted in a way that expressed that I cared for her. But it wasn't the actions that bothered her. It was what was behind them that she couldn't stand. She would have been much more accepting of the actions if she knew they weren't expressions of love.
Lovelybird Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Sure. Fear of rejection, fear of dependence, fear of the pressure of being constantly at your best, fear of giving much more than you get in return, fear of fear itself... I think this one is close to most cases
Author johan Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 Or afraid to see the real self of the one they care about because they might not like it. If you have fear of intimacy, it's about having the one you love see who you really are.
sunshinegirl Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 That's right, to an extent. My ex would certainly react poorly if I acted in a way that expressed that I cared for her. But it wasn't the actions that bothered her. It was what was behind them that she couldn't stand. She would have been much more accepting of the actions if she knew they weren't expressions of love. On the flip side, my ex was capable of doing loving actions, but I don't think they sprang from underlying feelings of love. The day we broke up he said he might be broken and unable to love. Could have been a line, but he was bawling and upset and his "shut down"-ness was certainly consistent throughout our relationship.
D-Lish Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 If you have fear of intimacy, it's about having the one you love see who you really are. To me... that's a truly scary concept.
Author johan Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 On the flip side, my ex was capable of doing loving actions, but I don't think they sprang from underlying feelings of love. The day we broke up he said he might be broken and unable to love. Could have been a line, but he was bawling and upset and his "shut down"-ness was certainly consistent throughout our relationship. My ex once told me if she ever got married again it would most like be to someone she didn't really love. That's the only kind of person she could really allow in: someone who didn't represent a risk to her.
sunshinegirl Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 My ex once told me if she ever got married again it would most like be to someone she didn't really love. That's the only kind of person she could really allow in: someone who didn't represent a risk to her. !!! This is what I don't get! What kind of happiness would your ex have if she put herself in that situation? Are people really that willing to forego real joy in life because of their fears?
Storyrider Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Absolutely. You can have an inch from me anytime you want. And you know what happens if you give an inch... If you have fear of intimacy, it's about having the one you love see who you really are. But these things are all tied together. She chose you as her heart's desire, so seeing who you really are is a reflection of herself.
Storyrider Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 My ex once told me if she ever got married again it would most like be to someone she didn't really love. That's the only kind of person she could really allow in: someone who didn't represent a risk to her. Well, that is pretty extreme. But when you were first attracted to her, did she hide this about herself? Did she present as a more open person than she turned out to be?
Lovelybird Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 !!! This is what I don't get! What kind of happiness would your ex have if she put herself in that situation? Are people really that willing to forego real joy in life because of their fears? maybe he cares much about you, and don't want you have a close-up picture of real self (for what reason I don't know, maybe fear you reject real him), so he rather choose someone he doesn't care much about, and that person's rejection cannot hurt him much. not that your effort can change that.
Author johan Posted July 7, 2008 Author Posted July 7, 2008 Well, that is pretty extreme. But when you were first attracted to her, did she hide this about herself? Did she present as a more open person than she turned out to be? It's extreme, but you wouldn't believe how common it is. People with a fear of intimacy are able to be very open and fun for quite a while, until the deeper feelings start up. And that's when they close down. So yes, early on, she was very sweet and caring and a lot of fun to get to know. And I discovered how intelligent she is and how much we have in common. Unfortunately she found out the same things about me. And when her feelings started to go deeper, we started having problems.
sunshinegirl Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 People with a fear of intimacy are able to be very open and fun for quite a while, until the deeper feelings start up. And that's when they close down. So yes, early on, she was very sweet and caring and a lot of fun to get to know. And I discovered how intelligent she is and how much we have in common. Unfortunately she found out the same things about me. And when her feelings started to go deeper, we started having problems. Hmm. To my chagrin, my ex was fairly un-communicative and un-emotional from the get-go. It is my fault/responsibility that I kept going even though he was hard to get to know. I attributed it to divorce trauma and thought his walls would come down in time. I do think at one point he loved me, as best as he was able. I am not sure when he started shutting down. To Lovelybird's point, I guess only time will tell what happens with his office hooch - whether she'll reject him, or they will have a shallow, non-intimate relationship that threatens neither of them.
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