AnLandy Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 I work in higher education, both with "traditional" students and "nontraditional" working adults. In the five years that I have been teaching at the college level, I have noticed a very rapid transition in my student population. It seems that the new freshman are less and less mature and less and less academically prepared. They struggle with reading comprehension, openly refuse to read the assigned texts, and don't know how to take decent notes. The formal papers that I have graded in the past two years have made me truly boggle at how few high school graduates actually seem to have a grasp of the English language. And don't even get me started on the issues of "forgetting" to cite direct quotes, "accidentally" cutting and pasting huge portions of text directly off of the Internet, and and "not understanding" what plagiarism is!!!!! In addition to all of this, there has been an attitude shift that I find alarming. When I asked a student to remove his ear buds in class one day, he went off on me for "disrespecting" him in front of his peers. I have asked five students to leave my classroom in the past four semesters, and had another one escorted out by campus security. (He threw a chair during a rather heated discussion of the death penalty). In one of the most surreal conversations that I have ever had, one student actually came to my office and argued that he did not deserve to fail the course, despite the fact that he did not show up to take the mid-term, did not turn in five of the ten homework assignments, and missed 3 of the 12 in-class quizzes. Is there anyone else out there who is dealing with this? I am currently on summer break, and, I swear to God, if I experience another year like this past one, I may seriously rethink my career choice.
Jake Barnes Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 I blame rap music. Combine that with videogames and designer drugs and do you really expect the English language to survive? But have no fear...Obama will save us
BoooredGuy Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 It's alarming, but old news. I graduated college a few years ago. I actually went to college knowing that this is more than 'the next step in life.' I studied hard, worked hard, and got a B.Sc., magna cum laude. I wasn't a total square - I got hammered at frat parties and took advantage of hot, easy women, but I made sure to take care of what needs to be taken care of. The average college student does not go to school for the right reasons. Furthermore, very few are prepared for what is to be expected to succeed in college, which is also a cakewalk compared to what it takes to succeed in the real world. I'm not dismissing higher education, but most professor's establish expectations and tell you what to focus on to succeed in the classroom. The real world does not have an outline for success that you should adhere to. A's are not guaranteed in the real world. These sorts of students are everywhere, including secondary ed. and graduate/professional levels (many bogus graduate/professional programs exist IMO). I think as an educator you strive to do your absolute best in reaching your audience; to teach and prepare students for success. Many won't listen, but if one succeeds (beyond the classroom), then you've done your job. What fuels it? I'd venture many things.
quankanne Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 ooh, this is a popular subject in our newspaper office – my editor teaches a couple of freshman English classes at the local U and is appalled by the students he's working with (before that, he was in the language lab, helping students with papers, basically being an editor there, but for a wider variety of writings, so he's seen the atrocious education level of kids new to college). our consensus is that for the past 25-20 years, kids are being taught how to pass tests, not learn, in grade school/high school; they've got greater exposure to increasingly bad writing prompts (text-speak is a prime example); and they just don't know how to read for content or comprehension. Basically they're educated and versed in soundbites. You know, those tidy little nuggets of information conveyed in 100 words or 15 seconds or less. They have no concept because none are officially conveyed. They're new-school, we're old school. and it's as scary as hell.
Gunny376 Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 I was at the store awhile back, my purchase came to $4.49, I gave her a $5 ~ she closed the drawer and cleared the register. She actually grabbed a pen and a piece of paper! She thought I was trying to con her when I told her, "You owe me .51 cents." Me to a high school junior working part0%-time in the lab where I work, "What's 20 % of 100?" She didn't know that answer.
BoooredGuy Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 That's a good point Gunny. College and higher education is not for everyone. I have many friends who never went to college and I don't hold that against them. They wanted to pursue work where a college degree was not necessary, and that makes sense. But your example is a good one with education in general. Can you do basic math? An extension of that is can you write a good letter, a memo, an e-mail, etc. Basic life skills. Things you do everyday. I'm not talking about anything advanced. It's kind of sad really.
MaxManwell Posted July 4, 2008 Posted July 4, 2008 I was a fantastic student in highschool, went to all my classes did all the assignments and loved mathematics. Got to college and was generally appauled with the teaching standard, the inconsistency, lack of cohesion and how simple most of my units were. I attended maybe 30% of my classes unless they were compulsary. One has better things to do with ones time. Like make money. Students don't see they are getting much out of college anymore because there are more graduates and less job. So they don't take it as seriously as they once did. College is now a formality and a requirement and is being treated as such by a lot of people.
MaxManwell Posted July 4, 2008 Posted July 4, 2008 I was at the store awhile back, my purchase came to $4.49, I gave her a $5 ~ she closed the drawer and cleared the register. She actually grabbed a pen and a piece of paper! She thought I was trying to con her when I told her, "You owe me .51 cents." Me to a high school junior working part0%-time in the lab where I work, "What's 20 % of 100?" She didn't know that answer. You probably hired and idiot because she had nice breasts. Put into place proper hiring and hire an ugly bloke who knows his stuff.
stillafool Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 I blame rap music. Combine that with videogames and designer drugs and do you really expect the English language to survive? But have no fear...Obama will save us I do too! Not to mention the parents who raise these self-entitled brats who have no discipline or respect for anyone or anything! You can blame the parents for students who disrepect teachers, classrooms and other people.
D-Lish Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 I was appalled when I started college as a mature student at the age of 21 (17 years ago) how many morons were in my class. People couldn't string sentences together properly... kids used the word "aint" in their essays. When I started University at the age of 25... I was just as appalled at how retarded the general student population was. I'd sit with my mouth agape during tutorials when some of these idiots would speak. I paid big money for my tuition- and I was in post secondary education because I WANTED to learn. It got better by fourth year university when the classes were smaller and the undesirables had been weeded out. Do I worry about my future as a senior with regard to the youth of today? Um....yes.
puppycat Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 I blame rap music. Combine that with videogames and designer drugs and do you really expect the English language to survive? But have no fear...Obama will save us Political leanings aside, sound-byte snarkiness like this is part of the root problem; regardless of the reason, many students now have limited attention spans. Social movements can't be summed up in two sentences. Of course, it's easier to blame than try to find a solution.
MaxManwell Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 I was appalled when I started college as a mature student at the age of 21 (17 years ago) how many morons were in my class. People couldn't string sentences together properly... kids used the word "aint" in their essays. When I started University at the age of 25... I was just as appalled at how retarded the general student population was. I'd sit with my mouth agape during tutorials when some of these idiots would speak. I paid big money for my tuition- and I was in post secondary education because I WANTED to learn. It got better by fourth year university when the classes were smaller and the undesirables had been weeded out. Do I worry about my future as a senior with regard to the youth of today? Um....yes. You probably studied liberal arts which is more or less a holding pen for stupids before they go out into the world and become waitresses and taxi drivers if they're lucky.
Ssheena Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Somehow I doubt Lishy is in liberal arts and even if she were, my impression of her is she is over qualified for either waitress or taxi driver. I agree schools are teaching to the "tests" as in a lot of states, how well their students do on the tests determine how much money they get. They also seem to push students through without demanding better than sub-quality work. Unfortunately, I don't see it getting any better for you. Well, there is the fact that the last two years there has been a huge amount/baby boom boom of applicants so the better colleges can be even more selective. You may end up with one or two more that actually respect you and will do the work that you assign them without having to have their hands held and bottle fed. Enjoy your time off while you can! I commend you for being demanding in your classes. I'm sure it's not easy and very frustrating.
Lucky555 Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 I am a currently going into my senior year of college. I believe that a lot of the core curriculum classes at my college are bogus. I absolutely dreaded some classes and therefore it was a MUST to do in order to get my degree. I really had no interest in English because I learned everything in high school. I believe that at my college if I didn't take advanced coursed in high school I would be way behind in college. That was the key here taking advanced high school course to prepare for college. Another issue is professor that don't care and lecture on and on. Seriously the class is not good like this and a lot of students will want to drop the course, not show up, or just blow off the tests. I believe if you want a great classroom you have to strive to be a great professor. I have just taken a neurology course and this subject was difficult. Its a lot of learning and the exams are difficult. I had to dedicate a lot of time to this subject. Yes i knew i needed it but it was also my professor that made the difference. My professor would let us have short breaks, always told us any time we have questions to stop him, he genuinely cared about our progress. He said EVERYONE HERE WILL GET THROUGH THIS COURSE SO DONT WORRY! That right there relieved a lot of stress. He told us we were a smart group. He was available right after class or before class. He also offered to be online to chat latter in the day if we had questions. HE NEVER Humiliated anyone. He never used a harsh tone even if we had an answer wrong. This professor created an effective learning environment. In addition he talked about his family and made small jokes here and there. By the way the whole class passed the course, everyone loved him, and i am sure he got high marks on his evaluation by the class. I didn't hear one bad comment about him. I also have some other professor like this at my college who teach the program i am in. In particular this one professor I can talk to him online even at 7:30 at night. Hes constantly available and he has his own life too. He is eager to help us in any way he can and if we need answers he will help us. For tests these professors guide us and they say I don't trick you. I have an outline just like everyone else, i have very difficult course, i have to study, i have to dedicate a lot of time in my schooling. However, professor like this make me want to go to class, help me become eager to learn, and like i said create and effective learning environment for their students. Hope this helps
jerbear Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 1901 High school diploma = 2008 College Degree Is that not the truth! 1901 High School Diploma = 2008 College degree. I view my college BS degree as a requirement to even qualify for a job at a top firm and it as my pedegree MS degree that got me qualified for a job at another top firm. I would have to say that I have made many close friends while I was in college and university. For those in the US, the college is a university. For those outside the US, I went to two universities. The networks they've hookd me into were just amazing. Anyway, I've noticed the differences in abilities and drive of the student body between the two schools I graduated from. At the university level, I got chewed out by the head of the department while another student got chewed out in front of the class. At the college level, nothing happened. I think the decline of college graduates started much earlier. I recently went back to my high school to visit and noticed the quality of students have dropped significantly. I did not witness all the teachers' abilities but I do know some teachers personally, HS graduate now teacher, and they've said similar things.
MaxManwell Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 I blame douche bag employers for making everyone get a degree.
Kenyth Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Everyone wants a college degree. There are too many ways for anyone to get financial assistance to go. Many of the people getting herded off to college by parents and counselors are simply not the academic type. Teachers are scared to fail a student unless they completely screw things up, and then only if they don't ask for a "do-over". This doesn't even take into account "rough" high schools where failing the wrong person could put you in harms way. Why do your basic middle class family students seem so undereducated? Because they are! I personally have met more than one childs mother that did all their homework for them! I don't mean working with them, I mean doing it for them. One was typing up her daughters book report while taking adult education classes with me. She wasn't paying attention to her own class at all. She was only concerned with attendance, and training to pass the certification test. She had little or no knowledge of the actual material, only the memorized answers to multiple choice test questions. She was doing her kids homework because she couldn't let her get less than an "A" in her classes. So she did it while her daughter sat home watching TV. How fair is that to all the other kids who do their own work? To compete against an adult doing fifth grade work? People like this dilute the value of education. Their children are the kinds of students you see in your classes.
purpleknif67 Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 My mom has worked for years as a part-time college instructor at a local and quite large community college here in NE Ohio. Since she also has a full-time job, she only teaches one class per semester. She is a very patient person and loves to teach and generally speaking, really enjoys her students. But a couple of years ago, I seriously thought she was just going to chuck teaching. There have been numerous incidents of plagarizing--one time a student copied a complete paragraph out of a book that had been written by one of my mom's PH.D. advisors!! I have my theories: Hate to blame the 70's-(that is when I grew up, but) that, I think was the beginning of that "we don't want our children to get too overwhelmed with schoolwork, they are going to get stressed, how will they handle the pressure..." blah, blah, blah. Kids, at a certain age, have to start learning to deal with stress and pressure and competition. Factory jobs are disappearing. Jobs, period, are disappearing. We are increasingly living in a period of disappearing resources. Life is competitive. This is no time for lower expectations, but that's all I see. I think there is also some type of subtle sort of classism that exists in this country and no one wants to talk about it but it manifests itself in the different treatment kids get. Some kids do well in school naturally, some need more work, more guidance and more assistance. I think a lot of educators love to spend time with the students who are intellectually gifted, charming and have good social skills. In a way, I don't blame them, and I'm sure that no one would want to actually admit to this but who wouldn't hesistate to indulge themselves in working with kids who need the minimum amount of instruction for the maximum amount of benefit? (and in no way am I accusing this college professor of doing this, but I feel this is rampant in high schools). Kids need to be graduating from high school with certain basic skills. Educators should not allow children to progress to the next grade level if the child is not performing at grade level. I should have been put back myself, numerous times because... I spent way too many years staring at the ceiling in elementary school, jr. high and high school. When I got to college, I had a RUDE awakening. I had to learn study skills...fast. I had to learn how to concentrate...fast. I nearly flunked out, was on academic probation, and managed to radically improve my GPA. While I was studying my butt off, I would hear "adults" comment, "oh, you are working to hard?" Huh? Guilt and shame has it's redeeming features;). No, I'm serious. Listen to the NPR interview with Tracy Ullmann..she explains it really well.
MaxManwell Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 My mom has worked for years as a part-time college instructor at a local and quite large community college here in NE Ohio. Since she also has a full-time job, she only teaches one class per semester. She is a very patient person and loves to teach and generally speaking, really enjoys her students. But a couple of years ago, I seriously thought she was just going to chuck teaching. There have been numerous incidents of plagarizing--one time a student copied a complete paragraph out of a book that had been written by one of my mom's PH.D. advisors!! I have my theories: Hate to blame the 70's-(that is when I grew up, but) that, I think was the beginning of that "we don't want our children to get too overwhelmed with schoolwork, they are going to get stressed, how will they handle the pressure..." blah, blah, blah. Kids, at a certain age, have to start learning to deal with stress and pressure and competition. Factory jobs are disappearing. Jobs, period, are disappearing. We are increasingly living in a period of disappearing resources. Life is competitive. This is no time for lower expectations, but that's all I see. I think there is also some type of subtle sort of classism that exists in this country and no one wants to talk about it but it manifests itself in the different treatment kids get. Some kids do well in school naturally, some need more work, more guidance and more assistance. I think a lot of educators love to spend time with the students who are intellectually gifted, charming and have good social skills. In a way, I don't blame them, and I'm sure that no one would want to actually admit to this but who wouldn't hesistate to indulge themselves in working with kids who need the minimum amount of instruction for the maximum amount of benefit? (and in no way am I accusing this college professor of doing this, but I feel this is rampant in high schools). Kids need to be graduating from high school with certain basic skills. Educators should not allow children to progress to the next grade level if the child is not performing at grade level. I should have been put back myself, numerous times because... I spent way too many years staring at the ceiling in elementary school, jr. high and high school. When I got to college, I had a RUDE awakening. I had to learn study skills...fast. I had to learn how to concentrate...fast. I nearly flunked out, was on academic probation, and managed to radically improve my GPA. While I was studying my butt off, I would hear "adults" comment, "oh, you are working to hard?" Huh? Guilt and shame has it's redeeming features;). No, I'm serious. Listen to the NPR interview with Tracy Ullmann..she explains it really well. wow you are so smart I want to be just like you seriously awesome post no one wants to do the hard yards for their students anymore
BoooredGuy Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Good post purpleknif67. I agree with many of the points which you make. I admit that I was a slacker back in high school. I always had the potential, but I slid by on charm and being social. I remember one teacher always referred to me as a 'movie star' simply because of my charm and warmth around her. I did well enough by barely applying myself (B- student), but if I really worked hard then I would have been an A student and been more set up to succeed after I graduate. I bombed my first semester of college. I was immediately placed on academic watch. My GPA was a 2.0 / 4.0, and I was taking gen. ed. my first semester. Nobody cared about my charm and socialness. They were like a bonus, but professors in legit courses don't pass you on those qualities. I got my act together and began to apply myself. I worked hard in college, and I graduated with a B.Sc. and multiple honors and distinctions. Securing my first real job was another learning experience. The charm and social lubricants secured the job for me after interviewing, but once on board, then it's about performance. The charm and socialness allow me to butter up others, network, schmooze, etc., but the bottom line is I need to perform and stay on top of my game. The other items are intangible assets which add value, but that's not why a professor gives me an A or why an employer retains me. I have friends who have never cared about school or applied themselves. They are strugging today, now that they are no longer a kid. They thought the fun times would never end, but now we are adults and nobody cares how many girls you got back then or how cool you were. They were more focused on getting drunk, watching MTV, having fun, going to clubs, etc. Nothing wrong with doing those things (I too did them plenty), but if that's all that you do, then you will be in for a rude awakening when you grow up. Even at my company today we deal with the 'helicopter parents' and other issues. My boss, who is in his mid 30s, even complained to me about what is it with my generation (early to mid 20s). I'm a hard worker and got to where I am today because of my hard work (I won't lie - the charm and socialness helped too), but some of my colleagues do not work as hard or are not as qualified and expect a good raise and a promotion after a year because that's what's supposed to happen to them. I saw this in school as well. Students who should not have been there or did not try / give a damn, yet expected to pass with a decent grade, and some had the nerve to even ask for a reference out of the deal, simply because of who they are (which is a nobody) or because there parents always coddled them, or whatever. This mentality translates into relationships as well. I know quite a few people who expect the very best because they think they are the very best. I think they stink pretty badly.
CaterpillarGirl Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 A few years ago, I was teaching an intro geology class. I started to explain something to the students that involved geometry. I taught at a relatively large, expensive university. When a student complained that she had to do math, I calmly explained that the prerequisite for admission to this university was 4 years of math, which probably included geometry. "Yeah," she replied, "but that was two years ago - I don't remember any of it." Apparently, people took this particular course so they wouldn't have to do the math that other "tougher" science courses required!
Virgo1982 Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 So she did it while her daughter sat home watching TV. How fair is that to all the other kids who do their own work? To compete against an adult doing fifth grade work? People like this dilute the value of education. Their children are the kinds of students you see in your classes. How fair is that to her daughter?
Gunny376 Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I live in a "university" town. We had a college student at work who had to repeat more than a couple of his general ed classes, (English 101, 102) and had been in college for more than the standard four years. He said, "There's lots of people that go to college for more than four years." I told him, "Yea! They call them Doctors!"
Gunny376 Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 80% of the jobs in the US today do not require a college degree, but they do require additional education beyond the HS level. I know of many people with a college degree (especially a liberal arts degree) that are working jobs they could have gotten without having gone to college. Indeed here in Alabama, the number one source of employment are family owned businesses that employ 100 employees are less ~ and as a result there's so much nepotism its un-real. So its not so much what you know, as it is who you know ~ and all the more ~ who your related to or which family your married into. The guy that I work for never went to college, and started out as a truck driver. Just one of his companies that he owns, (he owns about 12 that I know of.) grossed 159 million last year, and is ranked No.#1 nationally in the industry. The heir-apparent, his son? Didn't even finish high school.
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