mendoman Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Hello all, this might ramble a bit, and the point I'm trying to make or the advice I'm trying to get I am very unsure of, but here's what's up. My wife and I have been married nearly 23 years. During the last 7 or so it has been rocky, with her moving out at one point for a year and a half, having a couple of EA's (I had one too), and we now sleep in separate rooms (for the last year). There is no sex or intimacy on any level (her choice), though I am trying to be everything she wants and needs in a man, she's not interested. During the entire marriage I have had to plead for closeness, and for the most part she says "I was raised in a stoic loveless family, this is how I am, deal with it". Not an exact quote, but the gist is the same. I convinced her to go to MC with me, and we've had 2 sessions, the next one is tonight. Up until recently, my wife has had several friends that she's never introduced me (or my one daughter who is still at home) to. She spends a ton of time with them in person, on the phone, and via texting, and it was quite peculiar that we'd never met them. Three weeks ago, she finally invited one of them over. This woman is single, out of a relationship for 4 years, and a very sweet woman, raising 2 kids on her own. I am glad she's my wife's friend. One thing I am seeing though are comments from her friend that lead me to believe that maybe my wife didn't want to bring her home because she had told her I was some sort of beast. I always dote on my wife and her friend sees this. A comment made two weeks ago was "You better start taking care of your man or I'll bring him home and do it til the day I die!" Anyway, she came over Friday night while my daughter was staying the night at a friends house. The two of them like to drink wine, so I made sure that no one would have to go to the store later on and buy any, and made the trip for them. After a few hours of the three of us playing karaoke at home, my wife realized that she was going to be ill and I walked her to the bathroom in what is our master bedroom. Her friend was there by me. My wife shut the door to the bathroom whilst kneeling in front of the toilet (good times!). I put my hand on her friends waist/hip (I am by no means a flirt, and meant absolutely nothing by this. I do it to friends, family, etc.) and whispered to her that I think my wife was going to have to put a finger down her throat to get the booze out of her. I whispered again that I hope she gets it over with soon for her sake. Her friend then placed her hands on my waist and laid her head sideways against my chest. I placed my other hand on her waist/hip area, and she hugged tighter. I stood there in a dim light, being held in a way that I hadn't been for years. It was by no means sexual, but it was like a light went off in my head as to what I had been missing for so long. I honestly don't know how much time had passed. It could have been 3 minutes or a year. I was so awestruck by what had happened that I kind of snapped out of what was going on (honestly losing perspective of where I was) and said, "Wow, I almost kissed you... sorry". There was no leaning in for the kiss, or trying anything at all, but it was just something that spilled out. As I was saying this, I opened my eyes and she was already staring at my mouth and said "Your wife would never forgive me". I pulled away and that was the end of it. Or so I thought. I started getting angry a bit in thinking that "This is all I have ever asked of my wife, something so simple and easy and pure, and yet she denies me something I realize is so very critically missing". I continued to try and work my ass off the last couple of days to again gain her elusive favor of me, but began to feel more like Don Quixote. Last night she asked me about what happened. Her friend said on Saturday that I was cute and put my arm around her, and when my wife interrogated her on Sunday, her friend said that I tried to kiss her. She asked me about it last night, and I told her exactly what I said here, except for the statements by her friend and I at the end of the hug. This will be the topic of tonights counseling. I honestly don't have any feelings for her friend, and wasn't trying to seduce anyone. That's not me. Thoughts?
carhill Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Two things: 1. I know exactly what you mean when you say "During the entire marriage I have had to plead for closeness, and for the most part she says "I was raised in a stoic loveless family, this is how I am, deal with it"." 2. Your wife will believe her friend and not you I don't envy your position. I think you know what you need to do. Get to the gist of the M issues in MC. The vibe you were sending out to the friend was just a symptom.
EnigmasMuse Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Kepp going to MC, hopefully soon enough you'll know better what you need to do. Hang in there!
Enema Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 $10 says your wife uses it as ammunition in her case to the MC for why she's not more affectionate.
Untouchable_Fire Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 MC seems pointless with someone like that. I would not waste my time effort or life with a similar woman.
carhill Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 He might, as I did, clarify some of his behaviors responsible for the condition of his M and better be able to have a healthy R or M in the future. His wife's work is her own.
AAlike Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Kepp going to MC, hopefully soon enough you'll know better what you need to do. Hang in there! I don't know, they've been having serious problems for 7 YEARS, and apparently, have lacked closeness for 23, according to this: "During the entire marriage I have had to plead for closeness, and for the most part she says "I was raised in a stoic loveless family, this is how I am, deal with it". I'm having a tough time thinking that this is fixable at this juncture. It's pretty obvious that you yearn for this closeness (as you should, it's a marriage!!), and if some incidental contact is making a monumental impact like that on you, who knows what will happen when a similar opportunity presents itself when you're not right next to your vomiting wife. If I were you, I'd come 100% clean on this - you did nothing wrong, and if anything, maybe it will be a reality check for your wife that she's going to lose you. If your wife is not willing to work with you on this, it's clear that you either need to leave her, or make some adjustments to your marriage arrangement so that you're more like roommates and you go out and get the affection that you need elsewhere. you can't go on being miserable - eventually you're going to cheat.
carhill Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 you can't go on being miserable - eventually you're going to cheat. Yes, very true. I think the OP is seeing that reality now. That's why I suggested continuing MC, to keep him engaged in the M (the reinforcement which comes from good MC) while clarifying his reasons to stay or go. In the long run, I think it'll be a healthier choice for him.....
AAlike Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Yes, very true. I think the OP is seeing that reality now. That's why I suggested continuing MC, to keep him engaged in the M (the reinforcement which comes from good MC) while clarifying his reasons to stay or go. In the long run, I think it'll be a healthier choice for him..... I suppose, but no amount of MC is going to help if his wife is maintaining a non-negotiable stance on the matter. I mean, it's been 23 years!
JackJack Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 Do you feel she went to MC mainly because you suggested it? Or do you truly feel she wants to work on things? In other words, if she is going just because you mentioned it (and people do that sometimes to make their spouse think its gonna be ok or to shut them up) then it may not work anyway. She has to truly be willing to go to work on things in the marriage, not just because you suggested it. More details on exactly whats been going on might be helpful too.
Author mendoman Posted June 24, 2008 Author Posted June 24, 2008 OP here...I'll try to answer the questions posed, but I am replying from my phone and might miss a thing or two.As for MC, my wife is going because I asked her to, and she has stated to me and the counselor that she's already decided that she wants to live on her own, but she's willing to go to MC and maybe have her mind changed.That attitude is kind of part of the problem that's been going for a long time. That is a constant aura of unhappiness and discontent, and a real life "If my wife ain't happy, ain't noboby happy" environment. She doesn't have a very good relationship with our daughters in the sense that they come to me for advice and avoid her when she's on the warpath.My wife can be very sweet, but it is always on her terms. There's not ever a time when she goes out of her way on an emotional level with the family. She appears to be most comfortable when there is some sort of perceived wrong or injustice against her and she can hold it over everyone's head.
JackJack Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 "My wife is going because I asked her to, and she has stated to me and the counselor that shes already decided that she wants to live on her own, but shes willing to go to MC and maybe have her mind changed." Well, how nice of her to at least see if it can be changed. And yes, its possible, but right now sounds to me she already has her mind made up. I'm not saying ditch MC by no means, its worth a shot to see if things can be fixed, but from what you have said, I'm not so sure her heart and soul is in it.
carhill Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Yes, it does appear W has her mind made up, but, as long as she'll stay engaged in MC, the OP can benefit from the process to make himself healthier, something which will benefit him now and in the future and hopefully make him a more engaged father through the D process (if that's where it goes). The work and the changes to one's self are the benefit, IMO, regardless of the efficacy of the work on the M. He could switch to FC with his daughters perhaps, depending on their ages. MC helped me immeasurably in getting to the bottom of my emotional attachment to my old female friend and finding a healthy solution and clarifying my reasons to stay in the M or go. At this juncture, I'm still leaning towards go, but at least it is now for the right reasons, both within myself and my W, instead of the superficial claptrap I was going by prior. That's my hope for the OP, clarity
Chrome Barracuda Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 If she isnt gonna be intimate with you or dont wont to reconsile what is the point of being in the marriage and going to MC? It's a waste of time. You need to tell her the truth and let her decide if she wants to stay or not. God I hate sexless marriages. I know you want intimacy and kissing and everything else. But dont cheat, be better than that. Ask for a divorce. It sounds to me she's already left the marriage emotionally.
AAlike Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 If she isnt gonna be intimate with you or dont wont to reconsile what is the point of being in the marriage and going to MC? It's a waste of time. You need to tell her the truth and let her decide if she wants to stay or not. God I hate sexless marriages. I know you want intimacy and kissing and everything else. But dont cheat, be better than that. Ask for a divorce. It sounds to me she's already left the marriage emotionally. yeah, that's kind of where I was going with this too. This doesn't seem like a situation that can be rectified with some counseling, especially if your wife is just going through the motions. You can't force affection and emotion, she's got to want it.
Author mendoman Posted June 25, 2008 Author Posted June 25, 2008 OP here... So, we went to MC last night and I started off the session by telling the entire story of that evening. I could see my wife's eyes turning red with anger, but I was quite pleasantly surprised when I heard the Counselor's reaction. She said that she could tell I was sincere and telling the truth, and other than my wife's friend acting inappropriately, this had nothing at all to do with my wanting to bang her friend but everything to do with having a crucial need of mine fulfilled when I wasn't even seeking it out. She then turned it on my wife and asked her why this isn't part of the marriage and again my wife stated "I was raised in a quiet, non-loving home, thus - here I am, deal with it, etc., etc..." kind of statement. The counselor then asked her how it would have felt to be acknowledged and cared for when she was growing up and my wife got teary-eyed. It was the best possible question at the best possible time. I think my wife might be hunting down her friend today...
carhill Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Interestingly, my wife is the one who wanted MC and she's the one devoid of emotion and affection. Maybe she's trying to find it. Historically, that's always been an issue for her. MC has helped me understand better why I was trying too hard and feeling frustration and failure in the effort. My best way to describe it, beyond "going through the motions" is that she masks "the right behaviors" even if not feeling them. I really don't think it has anything to do with me and never has. I have a quiet understanding of that now and accept it. I have to decide if the pros of the relationship (there are pros) outweigh the cons. MC has helped me more clearly elucidate those nuances of the decision-making process. That is the thrust of my advice to the OP, to find clarity in his reasons and psychology. I find myself hugging my wife's friends too, even the nice psychologist friend who referred us to our MC. Everyone has the need for simple affection and connection, even a long-time live-alone (before getting married) guy like myself. The OP has other very important considerations, like kids. I hope he considers everything carefully.
AAlike Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Interestingly, my wife is the one who wanted MC and she's the one devoid of emotion and affection. Maybe she's trying to find it. Historically, that's always been an issue for her. MC has helped me understand better why I was trying too hard and feeling frustration and failure in the effort. My best way to describe it, beyond "going through the motions" is that she masks "the right behaviors" even if not feeling them. I really don't think it has anything to do with me and never has. I have a quiet understanding of that now and accept it. I have to decide if the pros of the relationship (there are pros) outweigh the cons. MC has helped me more clearly elucidate those nuances of the decision-making process. That is the thrust of my advice to the OP, to find clarity in his reasons and psychology. I find myself hugging my wife's friends too, even the nice psychologist friend who referred us to our MC. Everyone has the need for simple affection and connection, even a long-time live-alone (before getting married) guy like myself. The OP has other very important considerations, like kids. I hope he considers everything carefully. See that right there is a distinction between your wife and OP's situation. Your wife suggested the MC - that would imply that she at least acknowledges a problem and is making some kind of effort to deal with it.
carhill Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Interestingly (you'll see me using that word a lot ), she does not think she has any significant problem which impacts our relationship. Her reason for suggesting MC was to help me with my "hovering", "nagging" and "being too emotional". Her words - "This is how I am and I don't imagine it changing".
AAlike Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Interestingly (you'll see me using that word a lot ), she does not think she has any significant problem which impacts our relationship. Her reason for suggesting MC was to help me with my "hovering", "nagging" and "being too emotional". Her words - "This is how I am and I don't imagine it changing". interestingly, I now wish to withdraw my former distinction! I definitely commend you guys for being able to exist within such a relationship.
carhill Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Obviously, as in any marriage, there are a ton of things missing from a brief synopsis, and neither of us (my wife and I) is perfect by any stretch, so, in that sense, I can empathize with the OP. He's likely leaving out a number of things as well, perhaps some of which could support his W's perspective. Again, this is why I was pushing MC, so he could come to "accept" his and his W's incompatibility (if applicable) even if he can't "live" with it. Such education has taught me a lot about myself and I hope that for him. Me? No worries about me. I'm FUBAR
bish Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 I put my hand on her friends waist/hip (I am by no means a flirt, and meant absolutely nothing by this. Besides a woman's T&A, one area that is off limits is her hips/waist. If I hug a female friend, my hands are on the upper part of her back. come on man...your wife was getting ready to hurl in the bathroom and the first thing you did after closing the door was put your hands on her hips? Was there a reason you couldn't have talked to her without having to touch her? Face it, you wanted to see where it would go.
carhill Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 OP, continue to be honest with your wife and MC. Think of the incident as a signpost and wake-up call. My instinct is you're a good man who really wants his M to work and whose emotional/love bank has been completely withdrawn. If you were single and alone, it would be one thing to be missing that basic human touch, but offering up yourself to a cold and distant spouse is far worse, and I know that feeling well. Tough it out, stay away from female "friends", as you now know your psychology, and decide what you're going to do about the M. It's a harder but IMO healthier path. I've made enough mistakes to understand that now. BTW, do not take any pleasure when the MC "takes your side". There is no pleasure here, only varying degrees of pain. Empathize with your wife's struggle. She is struggling. If the M ends, you'll be happy you did, for you. I wish you well
Author mendoman Posted June 25, 2008 Author Posted June 25, 2008 Besides a woman's T&A, one area that is off limits is her hips/waist. If I hug a female friend, my hands are on the upper part of her back. come on man...your wife was getting ready to hurl in the bathroom and the first thing you did after closing the door was put your hands on her hips? Was there a reason you couldn't have talked to her without having to touch her? Face it, you wanted to see where it would go. Wow, thanks for the blanket generalization. Maybe I should rephrase that. The open plm of my right hand was on the left side of the small of her back. I have placed my hand in the same place on male friends, female friends, my daughters, my wife, my brothers, and even my mother in law. I can with great certainty tell you that I was never looking to score with any of them, or "see how far it would go". If you knew me, you'd know that behavior is not in my makeup.
twice_shy Posted June 25, 2008 Posted June 25, 2008 Wow, thanks for the blanket generalization. Maybe I should rephrase that. The open plm of my right hand was on the left side of the small of her back. You went from hands on her waist in one post...to one hand on the small of her back in this one. 2 hands on waist, to one hand on her back. Thats called a backpeddle I have placed my hand in the same place on male friends Then you have bigger things to worry about than where you put your hands on a woman.
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