HiItsMe Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 I have a guy friend tell me that nothing drives a woman to be attracted to you than her seeing you enjoying yourself and having a good time, and of course, her not being involved in your 'good time'...will drive her to wanting to be involved with you. Some women hate to be ignored as well, thus this attracts them even more. Unfortunately....if you DID ignore a woman, then she is attracted to you, you think 'H m...this woman has the hots for me, THEN you start paying attention to her, and her interest level drops in you, then stops returning your phone calls......stop calling her, and the cycle REPEATS!
carhill Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 A side effect of the transition from nice guy to good man (and the commensurate change in perspective regarding women) is that now I am really not interested in having a woman in my life. In some ways, it's like sadly bidding an old friend goodbye...and that friend is me. Don't you think that unattractive to average looking women want the same thing (to have a goodlooking guy with a unique personality fall in love with her?) Absolutely. My experience is they rarely settle if given even a remote option. The key dynamic is most don't even realize the looks disparity, since they've been told from a very young age that they are beautiful, mainly by guys trying to get into their knickers. Fugly to average looking men have no such delusions Sometimes the only winning move is not to play....
LiveKhaos Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 You know I have been reading this thread and it seems that most of you "nice guys" or ex "nice guys" seem to be frustrated because it's beautiful women you want to date. I see a lot of jealousy for the so called "bad boy". It may not be that these guys are so "bad" as much as they have good looks and unique personalities. Much like the beautiful women that you wish to date. Don't you think that unattractive to average looking women want the same thing (to have a goodlooking guy with a unique personality fall in love with her?) Women do not call these beautiful girls "bad girls" because they are desired by many men. Why do you men do this to each other? I'm sorry but you guys sound really "catty". My advice would be to stop the "hating", "get in where you fit in", and for God's sake stop trying to be what you are not (changing from a nice guy to a bad guy or whatever) Just be a "good guy": -good hygiene -good dresser -good personality -good manners -good job -good person Nobody is trying hate or be something their not...its simple a murderer is a murderer right? Does that mean that becuase he's a murderer and thats the way he is he doesn't need help to change his faulty ways? No! Of course not! Its almost as if it were the same concept...a guy who IS A DOORMAT is being walked all over, taken for granted, and unappreciated by MOST girls weather they're beautiful or NOT....being nice is good...but sometimes being a little TOO nice can hurt you...F$%# the no more nice guy Bull S*%@! Its the I'm going to STOP the not holding value and worth to myself , and I'm going to STOP being a DOORMAT attitude that many of us have taken on... Just becuase you acknowledge some of your "faults" and are trying to correct a couple...that DOES NOT make you a FAKE PERSON...please get that through your head...Being a doormat IS A FAULT IMO...And nobody's meant to be a doormat, but the same goes for nobody is to blaim except YOU for allowing yourself to be a doormat.... Disclaimer (lol): IF YOU'VE NEVER BEEN A DOORMAT IN YOUR LIFE THEN 7 TIMES OUT OF 10 YOU MOST LIKELY HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE HERE... And like i said in my previous post, its about being a GOOD guy more than anything...
GoodOnPaper Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Don't you think that unattractive to average looking women want the same thing (to have a goodlooking guy with a unique personality fall in love with her?) Where do average guys fit in, then? Women do not call these beautiful girls "bad girls" because they are desired by many men. Why do you men do this to each other? I'm sorry but you guys sound really "catty". When you value your worth by your ability to generate attraction and chemistry and believe that you pretty much lack this ability, it can get very frustrating. Just be a "good guy": -good hygiene -good dresser -good personality -good manners -good job -good person Sounds very dependable and reliable -- two adjectives that don't go along with generating attraction and chemistry.
stillafool Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Where do average guys fit in, then? They fit in with the average looking women. When you value your worth by your ability to generate attraction and chemistry and believe that you pretty much lack this ability, it can get very frustrating. Then this is an insecurity problem which we all have to some degree. I would bet anything you are an above average looking guy but someone you wanted has hurt you. Sounds very dependable and reliable -- two adjectives that don't go along with generating attraction and chemistry. Dependability and reliability are very attactive to women. Chemistry - I don't know about that.
stillafool Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Nobody is trying hate or be something their not...its simple a murderer is a murderer right? Does that mean that becuase he's a murderer and thats the way he is he doesn't need help to change his faulty ways? No! Of course not! Its almost as if it were the same concept...a guy who IS A DOORMAT is being walked all over, taken for granted, and unappreciated by MOST girls weather they're beautiful or NOT....being nice is good...but sometimes being a little TOO nice can hurt you...F$%# the no more nice guy Bull S*%@! Its the I'm going to STOP the not holding value and worth to myself , and I'm going to STOP being a DOORMAT attitude that many of us have taken on... Just becuase you acknowledge some of your "faults" and are trying to correct a couple...that DOES NOT make you a FAKE PERSON...please get that through your head...Being a doormat IS A FAULT IMO...And nobody's meant to be a doormat, but the same goes for nobody is to blaim except YOU for allowing yourself to be a doormat.... Disclaimer (lol): IF YOU'VE NEVER BEEN A DOORMAT IN YOUR LIFE THEN 7 TIMES OUT OF 10 YOU MOST LIKELY HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE HERE... And like i said in my previous post, its about being a GOOD guy more than anything... You too, I bet you are an above average looking guy who has been hurt and this has made you question your attractiveness to women.
LiveKhaos Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 You too, I bet you are an above average looking guy who has been hurt and this has made you question your attractiveness to women. Hahahaha! Actually you just lost your bet...I know I'm past average looking, not becuase I see myself in the mirror every single day, but becuase women let me know...lmao! Ok...ok...all jokes aside in all seriousness: Yeah, I've been hurt before...but what f^*#$@% guy hasn't been hurt at some point and time in their lives by a girl...? I used to have EXTREMELY low self esteem when I was very heavy set (almost 300 pnds) but I started running ate right and shaved over 100 pnds and I've never felt better about myself... as well as my self esteem is shining bright...even though I do have my days where my self esteem isn't all that high...And lets get something straight I'M CONFIDENT IN MYSELF NOT COCKY...
Author CaliGuy Posted July 11, 2008 Author Posted July 11, 2008 Hahahaha! Actually you just lost your bet...I know I'm past average looking, not becuase I see myself in the mirror every single day, but becuase women let me know...lmao! Ok...ok...all jokes aside in all seriousness: Yeah, I've been hurt before...but what f^*#$@% guy hasn't been hurt at some point and time in their lives by a girl...? I used to have EXTREMELY low self esteem when I was very heavy set (almost 300 pnds) but I started running ate right and shaved over 100 pnds and I've never felt better about myself... as well as my self esteem is shining bright...even though I do have my days where my self esteem isn't all that high...And lets get something straight I'M CONFIDENT IN MYSELF NOT COCKY... Live Khaos, you've made some really good points. A man who's never been a doormat in his life wouldn't understand the context in which the article was written. Guys who are doormats also don't understand why they are being walked on because they don't realize they are doormats. They just think they are "nice" guys. It's like an alcoholic who doesn't realize that he's drinking too much. Nice guys give and give not realizing that what they are doing is actually causing resentment and rejection. They don't value themselves so they give (their time, money, etc) to make up for their perceived shortcomings. The new tag line says it all.
LiveKhaos Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Live Khaos, you've made some really good points. A man who's never been a doormat in his life wouldn't understand the context in which the article was written. Guys who are doormats also don't understand why they are being walked on because they don't realize they are doormats. They just think they are "nice" guys. It's like an alcoholic who doesn't realize that he's drinking too much. Nice guys give and give not realizing that what they are doing is actually causing resentment and rejection. They don't value themselves so they give (their time, money, etc) to make up for their perceived shortcomings. The new tag line says it all. Thanx CaliGuy I actually couldn't have said it better myself...The fact that some guys don't even realize that they are simple doormats is IMO sad...from a previous doormats perspective to another... Sometimes people don't understand the BS that a "nice Guy" AKA doormat guy (and sometimes yes, even girls) have to go through...in the end he/she is left with his/her heart layed out broken in pieces in their hands... I've seen it happen first hand too many times... That's why I'm glad people like this Masini women write articles like this, and I'm appreciative that people like you start very informative threads on this subject such as the one we're in right now... While some women are actually attracted to the doormat type of guy...I'd say realistically speaking over 75-80% AREN'T! Its that simple! And it's NOT that you're CHANGING WHO YOU ARE...BUT INSTEAD YOU ARE TRADING IN A BAD HABIT FOR A BETTER, MORE REFORMED, SELF-RESPECTED & VALUED YOU!
Author CaliGuy Posted July 12, 2008 Author Posted July 12, 2008 Thanx CaliGuy I actually couldn't have said it better myself...The fact that some guys don't even realize that they are simple doormats is IMO sad...from a previous doormats perspective to another... Sometimes people don't understand the BS that a "nice Guy" AKA doormat guy (and sometimes yes, even girls) have to go through...in the end he/she is left with his/her heart layed out broken in pieces in their hands... I've seen it happen first hand too many times... That's why I'm glad people like this Masini women write articles like this, and I'm appreciative that people like you start very informative threads on this subject such as the one we're in right now... While some women are actually attracted to the doormat type of guy...I'd say realistically speaking over 75-80% AREN'T! Its that simple! And it's NOT that you're CHANGING WHO YOU ARE...BUT INSTEAD YOU ARE TRADING IN A BAD HABIT FOR A BETTER, MORE REFORMED, SELF-RESPECTED & VALUED YOU! Crazy_grl has a tag line that I love: "It's better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you are not..." I would say that 99% of women don't like door mats. I would also say that 99% of women who want a "nice" guy are really talking about well balanced GOOD men, NOT door mats. Being walked over isn't attractive. Being "nice" to make up for perceived shortcomings isn't attractive. Being more girl than man (when you're a man) is not attractive. Being a whiner/bitchy man isn't attractive. I could go on and on. I realize my past mistakes and I worked hard to overcome them. All I want to do is help open the eyes of the door mat men out there who just think they're "niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice...."
bones1 Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I think more people would understand if someone could give a real, tangible example of how they were a "door mat", or what it means. Much of this is pretty subjective. I mean some people on here think you should be unreliable, and undependable to get a woman. I couldn't disagree more.
GoodOnPaper Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 I mean some people on here think you should be unreliable, and undependable to get a woman. I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem that dependability and reliability are completely separate from that mysterious whatever-it-is some men have that draws lots of women to them. The ability to generate excitement/passion/attraction/chemistry trumps everything, and it's something the average guy with "nice guy" tendencies is not confident about.
bones1 Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 Yes, but I think people over think this too much. Maybe watch too much tv. Look around.. There are hundreds of millions of regular people that have kids, are married, etc. Regular, ordinary people. The main thing is just approaching women. I went to a grocery store, told this woman she had a great body, then dated her for a year. I think often times we don't approach or try enough, in real life, and think too much. If you aren't a bad boy don't try to be one. As the other guy said, good job, good clothes, etc..
Author CaliGuy Posted July 12, 2008 Author Posted July 12, 2008 I think more people would understand if someone could give a real, tangible example of how they were a "door mat", or what it means. Much of this is pretty subjective. There are a lot of examples: Here's just a few: 1. Covert Contracts: AKA Doing "nice" things for people expecting something in return but never telling the person that is why you are doing it. 2. Never standing up for yourself or putting your foot down when the situation calls for it. 3. Solid lack of boundaries. IE: You let her do things she shouldn't because you are afraid of losing her. 4. Avoiding conflict. 5. Being a "Yes" man. Always saying yes for fear you'll make her angry. 6. Whining about things most men would never whine about. 7. Begging, pleading, crying about the relationship when it seems it's at it's end. 8. Needing too much of her attention (clingy/needy behavior) 9. Being ashamed of your own needs as a man. 10. Never doing things with your friends, always being available to her, catering to her every whim and need. There are many more. Save yourself the time and read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover. It explains in detail many of the typical door mat behaviors that push women away. I mean some people on here think you should be unreliable, and undependable to get a woman. I couldn't disagree more. No one has said that as far as I can tell. The unreliable or undependable comment can be confused with "have a life." In other words, don't make her the center of your world. Make her PART of it but NOT the reason you exist.
Curt Posted August 1, 2008 Moderators Posted August 1, 2008 It may not be that these guys are so "bad" as much as they have good looks and unique personalities. Unique personalities. Correct. By unique, you cannot help but imply non-needy, non-clingy, self-confident, engaging, self-respecting, dominant (NOT domineering) men. Women do not call these beautiful girls "bad girls" because they are desired by many men. Why do you men do this to each other? I'm sorry but you guys sound really "catty". We are having this discussion FOR each other, not TO each other. Desire to build other men up from deep within their own personalities in order to encourage change and greater success in their personal lives does NOT define a person's being "catty." My advice would be to stop the "hating", "get in where you fit in", and for God's sake stop trying to be what you are not (changing from a nice guy to a bad guy or whatever) Get in where you fit in? Hating? ? ? ? ? Say what? LOL! That is the kind of submissive, self-defeating, "accept the status quo" position that has kept individuals (maybe even nations) from leaping forward into greatness. What if Japan were to have accepted this kind of ideology after Hiroshima? Do you imply that an individual that can see that something is not working ... should just continue to do what is not working? Just be a "good guy": -good hygiene -good dresser -good personality -good manners -good job -good person If you yourself were using this as your "desired qualities in a man" list, by good personality and good person, you would consciously (and perhaps even more unconsciously) mean the kind of "dominant" man we are discussing, NOT a "wussified male."
Yamaha Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 A doormat guy is weak about advocating is own needs and caves in to hers. He will try always to please her and win her acceptance by buying gifts, food, etc in order to make her like him. She will use him because he doesn't respect himself so neither will she. He will get mad and angry at her but will not voice it or if he does (and she calls him on it) he will back down. He will complain to her but will never be the one to end things.
Angel1111 Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 If your definition of nice guy is "you can walk all over me and I'm happy to let you," then you're correct to think that this guy won't have much success with women. On the flipside, neither would any woman who acted that way, either. I really wish men would stop worrying about this crap and figure out that when you know who you are, when you have direction and control over your life, and are secure with yourself, you are attractive and totally unique. Figure out who you want to be and become that person, if you're not already. Then you'll probably attract the right person. All of you are just totally wasting your time by being bitter, attacking American women, and grasping at straws about why your relationships fall apart. You're just as much a part of the reason as the woman is. It is never one-sided. And if something doesn't work out, stop thinking that blame has to be placed on one person or the other. Sometimes people are just incompatible, and sometimes things just don't work out. Most of the time, it really is that simple.
Woggle Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 The key for a man is not being afraid to put a woman in check if need be and being willing to kick a woman to the curb when you are not being treated the way you should be treated. Never give up your self respect or dignity for a woman and you should be okay. She has to see that you will live a happy and full life without her.
Author CaliGuy Posted August 3, 2008 Author Posted August 3, 2008 The key for a man is not being afraid to put a woman in check if need be and being willing to kick a woman to the curb when you are not being treated the way you should be treated. Never give up your self respect or dignity for a woman and you should be okay. She has to see that you will live a happy and full life without her. Exactly, Woggle! Never make a woman you reasons for existence. The center of your world. Make her PART of your life. You should be able to be happy in or out of a relationship but not because of it. Cheers!
Curt Posted August 3, 2008 Moderators Posted August 3, 2008 All of you are just totally wasting your time by being bitter, attacking American women, and grasping at straws about why your relationships fall apart. You're just as much a part of the reason as the woman is. It is never one-sided. And if something doesn't work out, stop thinking that blame has to be placed on one person or the other. Sometimes people are just incompatible, and sometimes things just don't work out. Most of the time, it really is that simple. I agree with much of what you are saying, Angel, with the exception of the noted commentary. I disagree that this is an attack on women, American or otherwise. I also disagree that it is a "blame game," to try and find some "guilty party" on whom the responsibility for failed relationships can be affixed. Further, it is not about men being bitter. Bitterness is merely a self-destructive, counterproductive emotion that smacks of emotional insecurity and weakness in and of itself. I can only speak to what I am attempting to advocate. Put simply, my comments are more of a "call to action" for men; a call for them to take back their own personal sense of self-worth and standards when it comes to women and dating. Rather than having standards of behavior, intelligence, beauty, etc., that we use to examine potential mates, I think many men consciously (or subconsciously) surrender the right to find a woman that complements us and makes us happy, and rather approach relationships from the perspective of trying to "please her." Unfortunately, we often do this without having an "accurate" picture of what most women truly find desirable in a mate to start with. Yes, there will always be men and women that are exceptions to any generalized rules/concepts. Even though what I am talking about here is inherently a set of generalizations, I think that they are accurate ones for a considerable number of women in the general population. Angel, you're right in stating that a guy needs to find out where he needs to change and then demonstrate. However, I think you would agree that knowing not only how females think and act but also what they find desirable and attractive in males is not bad advice for any man. In the end, men MUST be able to think, behave and act as self-confident, dominant (again, I am not saying domineering) discriminating males. They must be able to stand up for what they believe in and think. If a man or woman has grown into adulthood with misconceptions, misunderstandings, incorrect information or just plain poor judgment with respect to the opposite sex and dating/relationships, they owe it to themselves (and their future mates) to take ownership of these issues and correct their paths. Are these not the fundamental steps to improvement for everyone? I think that unless we all refocus the "mating dance" between men and women, we will continue to have as Dennis Miller once put it, "a tentative sexual two-step where neither partner wants to lead, neither partner wants to follow, and EVERYBODY'S feet are getting stepped on." But that's just his opinion ... and MINE could be wrong. Curt
Angel1111 Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 I agree with much of what you are saying, Angel, with the exception of the noted commentary. I disagree that this is an attack on women, American or otherwise. I also disagree that it is a "blame game," to try and find some "guilty party" on whom the responsibility for failed relationships can be affixed. Further, it is not about men being bitter. Bitterness is merely a self-destructive, counterproductive emotion that smacks of emotional insecurity and weakness in and of itself. I can only speak to what I am attempting to advocate. Put simply, my comments are more of a "call to action" for men; a call for them to take back their own personal sense of self-worth and standards when it comes to women and dating. Rather than having standards of behavior, intelligence, beauty, etc., that we use to examine potential mates, I think we men consciously (or subconsciously) surrender our right to find a woman that complements us as individuals, and rather approach relationships from the perspective of "pleasing her." Unfortunately, we often do this without having an "accurate" picture of what most women truly find desirable in a mate to start with. Yes, there will always be men and women that are exceptions to any generalized rules/concepts. Even though what I am talking about here is inherently a set of generalizations, I think that they are accurate ones for a considerable number of women in the general population. Angel, you're right in stating that a guy needs to find out where he needs to change and then demonstrate. However, I think you would agree that knowing not only how females think and act but also what they find desirable and attractive in males is not bad advice for any man. In the end, men MUST be able to think, behave and act as self-confident, dominant (again, I am not saying domineering) discriminating males. They must be able to stand up for what they believe in and think. If a man or woman has grown into adulthood with misconceptions, misunderstandings, incorrect information or just plain poor judgment with respect to the opposite sex and dating/relationships, they owe it to themselves (and their future mates) to take ownership of these issues and correct their paths. Are these not the fundamental steps to improvement for everyone? I think that unless we all refocus the "mating dance" between men and women, we will continue to have as Dennis Miller once put it, "a tentative sexual two-step where neither partner wants to lead, neither partner wants to follow, and EVERYBODY'S feet are getting stepped on." But that's just his opinion ... and MINE could be wrong. Curt I was really making reference to about 3 different threads that are going on right now that are all focused on this topic one way or another. One of them specifically targets American women. Sorry, I'm just getting really sick of hearing about how noble men are and how shallow women are. It's incredibly insulting. I agree with a lot of what you say, but it's usually a man's instinct to want to please the woman he loves and that is the great charm of a man, so he shouldn't give that up. What he needs to do is to learn how to do that while still maintaining his sense of self. And I totally agree about being dominant. I get busted for this all the time but I absolutely cannot handle being with a man who is weaker than me, who lets people walk all over him, or who will not take the lead. It's not about equal rights and it's not about him being disrespectful to me, it's about me not feeling like I have to be a mommy to the guy I'm with, and that he's someone I can depend on. I keep saying it but no one seems to hear it - but this is why women are so attracted to successful men, because they're self-confidence is usually very high and they usually know who they are. They are in control of their lives. But it really wouldn't matter if you're a janitor at an elementary school, if you're sure of yourself and in control of your life, you'll be appealing.
Curt Posted August 3, 2008 Moderators Posted August 3, 2008 I agree with a lot of what you say, but it's usually a man's instinct to want to please the woman he loves and that is the great charm of a man, so he shouldn't give that up. What he needs to do is to learn how to do that while still maintaining his sense of self. Yes, my intention was to imply that he should not merely try to please her at the expense of recognizing his own needs and desires. If this is what you mean as well, I am completely in agreement. And I totally agree about being dominant. I get busted for this all the time but I absolutely cannot handle being with a man who is weaker than me, who lets people walk all over him, or who will not take the lead. It's not about equal rights and it's not about him being disrespectful to me, it's about me not feeling like I have to be a mommy to the guy I'm with, and that he's someone I can depend on. I keep saying it but no one seems to hear it - but this is why women are so attracted to successful men, because they're self-confidence is usually very high and they usually know who they are. They are in control of their lives. But it really wouldn't matter if you're a janitor at an elementary school, if you're sure of yourself and in control of your life, you'll be appealing. Thanks, angel. Poignant and well expressed. Curt
loveinlife Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 i think i still fall under the nice guy category and might be played by this girl... =/
Angel1111 Posted August 3, 2008 Posted August 3, 2008 i think i still fall under the nice guy category and might be played by this girl... =/ Maybe you do but please don't misunderstand that terminology and think that women don't want a nice guy. What they don't want is a wimpy guy - which is often referred to as a nice guy. And they don't want a bossy, mean guy either. I know a man who is highly successful and is one of the nicest people I've ever met. He will go out of his way to please people and make them feel good. But if anyone crosses a line with him, he'll set them straight very quickly. And no matter how pissed off he gets, I have never seen him lose his temper. He probably does on rare occasions but I've never seen it. As a matter of fact, he becomes extremely calm when he has been pushed too far. I think he's the best example I've ever seen of a guy who is truly nice, but has a good sense of himself, a lot of self-control, and very strong boundaries. What you may be experiencing with the girl you're with is that you could be acting like a push-over, or not speaking up when you think she's playing you. If you put up with this, she will not respect you. Women do want a nice guy, but they don't want a doormat. There's a huge difference between the two but there seems to be a lot of confusion about that. I hope my explanation helps a little.
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