Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 You do look pretty good in that Olan Mills....
stillafool Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 http://dating.personals.yahoo.com/singles/datingtips/85967/dating-secret-exposed-why-nice-guys-finish-last This is essentially what "No More Mr Nice Guy" is all about. I read this but couldn't the same thought apply to a "nice girl"? No man wants a woman who is "not exceptional, not exciting and not sexy". They don't want women who are too available and too needy. I think this thought applies to people in general.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 30, 2008 Author Posted June 30, 2008 You do look pretty good in that Olan Mills.... Flattery will get you everywhere, my dear...
bones1 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I think as cherry blossom alluded to, these self help books and gurus paint too much in black and white. Actually I never heard in my life "Your a nice guy but I see you as a friend". I don't know any guys that hear that, except in teenage Hollywood movies. As an example, I call when I say i will, and answer my phone. Is that being too available? Should I purposely be less available, as I have been to women I am not that interested in? At the same time, I disagree with women I date, and don't give in too much. However, I also like to see that the woman I am with is happy with where we go to eat, vacation etc. All I am saying is that it is almost impossible to find the stereotypical "nice guy doormat" that is so often written about in these books. I don't have that much spare time to date a woman I cannot be myself with, or have to be sure to watch when I am too nice, or not nice enough, or too available etc. The women who think a man is too nice, or too available are obviously not that into the man in the first place.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 30, 2008 Author Posted June 30, 2008 I read this but couldn't the same thought apply to a "nice girl"? No man wants a woman who is "not exceptional, not exciting and not sexy". They don't want women who are too available and too needy. I think this thought applies to people in general. Yes, it applies equally to males and females. I can speak personally on my experience with insecure, confidence lacking women -- NOT sexy at all.
bones1 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I guess my question is... Are some guys just nice, and some guys just bad, without crossing over in between the 2 over the course of time, and with different women? As for myself, I am sure I have been very nice and available with some women, and a complete jerk with others. With some women i was a mixture of both. Come on guys think of it... What would you rather have? A beautiful model who is rich, yet needy? Or a poor fat chick who "makes you feel attraction through her cocky attitude?" I would take choice A.. So women are that much different that they would overwhelmingly choose choice B as their mate for life?
You'reasian Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 There's no earth-shattering revelation here. It's just "Why Men like Bitches" rehashed for the opposite sex. People like confident, self-respecting people. It's as simple as that. Mild temper problems could be tolerable, but down right bitch is out the door.
You'reasian Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 What would you rather have? A beautiful model who is rich, yet needy? Or a poor fat chick who "makes you feel attraction through her cocky attitude?" I would take choice A.. So women are that much different that they would overwhelmingly choose choice B as their mate for life? Its never a black and white situation, bones. How many beautiful, rich models have you attracted? And if the answer is > 1, please shed some light lol Seriously, if a woman makes you feel needed, regardless of her physical or financial situation - so long there's an attraction, then you feel the need for her and vice versa.
bones1 Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I agree.. What i am saying is this.. Many of these self help books, gurus, etc, sell their product by telling people looks do not matter, money does not matter, it is simply how you create attraction, and women will fall for you. I used an extreme example to illustrate how ridiculous that would be, when you turn it around. Would men choose an obese ugly girl with confident personality over a very attractive , yet needy one? It seems to be wishful thinking that women will overlook height, looks, physique, money, career, etc, just if you can create attraction through being a cocky bad boy! And men don't love "bitches". They love "hot bitches". Big difference. Perhaps some men might be so clueless that they call a woman 20 times a day, tell them they love them on the first date, etc. But if they learn these lessons, and change, they might be able to attract the same type of woman in their league. That's all. They won't have all types of beautiful women falling all over them if they have other major shortcomings, which is what these programs try and make people believe, so that they buy them.
Author CaliGuy Posted July 1, 2008 Author Posted July 1, 2008 I agree.. What i am saying is this.. Many of these self help books, gurus, etc, sell their product by telling people looks do not matter, money does not matter, it is simply how you create attraction, and women will fall for you. I used an extreme example to illustrate how ridiculous that would be, when you turn it around. Would men choose an obese ugly girl with confident personality over a very attractive , yet needy one? It seems to be wishful thinking that women will overlook height, looks, physique, money, career, etc, just if you can create attraction through being a cocky bad boy! And men don't love "bitches". They love "hot bitches". Big difference. Perhaps some men might be so clueless that they call a woman 20 times a day, tell them they love them on the first date, etc. But if they learn these lessons, and change, they might be able to attract the same type of woman in their league. That's all. They won't have all types of beautiful women falling all over them if they have other major shortcomings, which is what these programs try and make people believe, so that they buy them. Many men have chosen the more obese and less attractive woman over the super hot bitchy or needy model type. Look around you my friend. This is not a dream world, this is reality. I showed several examples here at my work earlier this year. It happens. Men and women who are able to look past exterior flaws to see the perfect person inside are much more likely to be in a happy, lasting relationship than men and women who can not. It's not rocket science. It's just life.
bones1 Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Being a perfect person inside, is far different than simply "not being a doormat", or having that "cocky bad bay attitude". I have yet to meet a perfect person inside.
You'reasian Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 I used an extreme example to illustrate how ridiculous that would be, when you turn it around. Would men choose an obese ugly girl with confident personality over a very attractive , yet needy one? Your descriptions are extreme. A man might chose a gal who has curvy, has some meat on her (but no means obese) whose much more fun to be with, reciprocating and shares a similar energy level and sex drive compared to a very, very attractive needy one whose not these things. It seems to be wishful thinking that women will overlook height, looks, physique, money, career, etc, just if you can create attraction through being a cocky bad boy! C'mon we've all seen guys with attractive women who are cocky bad boys. Why is that? And men don't love "bitches". They love "hot bitches". Big difference. Hot or not, I tend to close the door on bitches. Perhaps some men might be so clueless that they call a woman 20 times a day, tell them they love them on the first date, etc. But if they learn these lessons, and change, they might be able to attract the same type of woman in their league. That's all. They won't have all types of beautiful women falling all over them if they have other major shortcomings, which is what these programs try and make people believe, so that they buy them. Yeah, I can agree with this.
imbewildered Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 Many men have chosen the more obese and less attractive woman over the super hot bitchy or needy model type. Look around you my friend. This is not a dream world, this is reality. I showed several examples here at my work earlier this year. It happens. Men and women who are able to look past exterior flaws to see the perfect person inside are much more likely to be in a happy, lasting relationship than men and women who can not. It's not rocket science. It's just life. THis is called "settling".. Both sexes do it out of scarcity and lack of other options. We rationalise and justify it by refering to her "inner beauty". whatever that means.
Tony T Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 The reason that "nice guys" come last and get used for favors, free dinners, and chauffeur duty is simple to understand . Women are NOt attracted to men who do NOT lead. Women say all manner of things which confuse men ,heck, I think that most times women confuse themselves. One of the old favorites is that they want a "nice" or "sensitive " guy.. Who knows what this means (even it it were true which I doubt) Based on MY experience and observations, women do indeed want a "nice " guy in their lives BUT not in the role of an SO. The function of a "nice " guy is to be her fawning servant. Take her places,wash her car and step in to comfort her when she and that bad boy break up for the tenth time. Sure, she has some affection for a NICE guy but not that deep down ATTRACTION. The nice guy does not assert his RIGHTFUL leadership - he follows her whims, wants and moods HOPING that she will realize what a sweet guy he is and fall for him. It never works- he gets exploited, she treats him like a "male girlfriend" and that bad boy bangs her when it suits him. Fact of life. In my opinion, the above quoted is about as well put as it could possibly get. From my intense personal experience on the subject, it couldn't be more on target.
You'reasian Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 The nice guy does not assert his RIGHTFUL leadership - he follows her whims, wants and moods HOPING that she will realize what a sweet guy he is and fall for him. It never works- he gets exploited, she treats him like a "male girlfriend" and that bad boy bangs her when it suits him. Fact of life. I agree with this as well.
Curt Posted July 2, 2008 Moderators Posted July 2, 2008 This thread is so good. I agree that the article is good for HS guys. Y'know what, though? It should be required reading for guys from high school age and onwards. We all mess up and get too caught up in chicks now and then. I did it recently, actually. SAD SAD SAD I nearly bitch-slapped myself after I came back to my senses. It's a humbling lesson to learn. OH, and for the nice guys out there ... just in case you still haven't come to your epiphany in life ... here's the lesson: "The only thing nice guys get is endless nights alone ... doing ... well ... you know what they'll be doing..." This has been a pubic service announcement. Cheers, Curt
Curt Posted July 2, 2008 Moderators Posted July 2, 2008 In my opinion, the above quoted is about as well put as it could possibly get. From my intense personal experience on the subject, it couldn't be more on target. Word!
Curt Posted July 2, 2008 Moderators Posted July 2, 2008 So women are that much different that they would overwhelmingly choose choice B as their mate for life? They well may. But Brad Pitt still will win a female, regardless. Looks and $$$$ help, but are not the hard-and-fast rules that males would follow for themselves. Curt
bones1 Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 My example said "Given the choice", because you see men with all types of women. Does that mean that woman is their first choice? Do they have the ability to land models, beautiful women, and make a CHOICE to be with the obese or unnattractive one? And just because she is obese, that means she must have a great personality? She might have a much worse personality. Yes, we see women with the cocky type bad boys. Do those relationships last? Are those the type of women to avoid, as they are love addicts whom just enjoy the thrill of the chase? Are those the cocky bad boys whom have a reason to be that way? Do they have looks, money etc? Or are the women chasing after the cocky bad boy whom works at McDonalds? I personally have no problem if the woman I am with is needy. I would actually prefer that then if she was 100% completely independent of me, and could take me or leave me. I have noticed many women seem to be the nurturing type, who feel more comfortable with a guy that needs them. I don't understand that all the time, but it just shows there are all types of women. And if you are too caught up in a chick,and she left you, who says she was the one for you anyway? Do you think you would have been with this girl forever if you acted more cocky?
Curt Posted July 2, 2008 Moderators Posted July 2, 2008 Do those relationships last? Likely many do, yes. Are those the type of women to avoid, as they are love addicts whom just enjoy the thrill of the chase? I suspect avoiding these women would mean avoiding most of the female population. Are those the cocky bad boys whom have a reason to be that way? Do they have looks, money etc? Or are the women chasing after the cocky bad boy whom works at McDonalds? Yes, cocky guys (who are funny while being cocky - critical element) are EVERYWHERE, making sweet love to all ranks and conditions of ladies ... whomever they want to lay the loving on... I personally have no problem if the woman I am with is needy. I would actually prefer that then if she was 100% completely independent of me, and could take me or leave me. Forgive my frankness, but that almost seems like codependency or a "keeping control over her via her neediness" power play. I have noticed many women seem to be the nurturing type, who feel more comfortable with a guy that needs them. I don't understand that all the time, but it just shows there are all types of women. Yes, some women love having a guy she can manipulate and have do all she tells him to ... to nurture him like one would a lost puppy. They would PREFER, however, to have a male that excites their desire to mate ... so that they may have sexy, virile offspring to carry on their genes into the next generation. Oh ... I know what you might be thinking. It sounds so Darwinian, doesn't it? I have found that many women say they want a sweet, affectionate, attentive, loving guy. They do, of course, but they want those qualities in a "bad boy/dominant male" package. Women don't need the above qualities to show forth in their bad boy too often to also attribute those qualities to him. The focus is on overall quality, not quantity. Afterall, why would a woman stay with an abusive guy if he NEVER shows positive sides? She wouldn't. Again, however, the exciting bad boy does not have to do much positive "stuff" in order to get her to attribute those qualities of character to him as well. And if you are too caught up in a chick,and she left you, who says she was the one for you anyway? Do you think you would have been with this girl forever if you acted more cocky? It is likely that, without one did the personal "re-framing" of one's thinking patterns, one could never keep her. She would grow tired, bored, unchallenged, .... yadda yadda yadda. At that stage in one's mental journey, no, she would not be the right one for you, because you couldn't get to her level of socialization and sexual maneuvering. You would be a boy in a man's world, and it would not work. The question of "rightness" would be null and void. Just my $0.02. Curt
Curt Posted July 2, 2008 Moderators Posted July 2, 2008 If a woman makes you feel needed' date=' regardless of her physical or financial situation - so long there's an attraction, then you feel the need for her and vice versa.[/quote'] Attraction is often based at the start on physical or mental constructs. Being needed only amplifies attraction, but it does not create it. Curt
Samari Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 Interesting you should bring up the subject. I found a series of amateur, yet very well produced, programs on youtube about the trials of a nice guy. The series consists of three shows, less than ten minutes each, but they dramatize the nice guy process and what he goes through. I thought it was worth the watch. Go here: Part I: Part II: Part III: That was a great video. Thanks.
You'reasian Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 They would PREFER, however, to have a male that excites their desire to mate ... so that they may have sexy, virile offspring to carry on their genes into the next generation. ....Spot on.
LiveKhaos Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 I used to never have a problem getting women interested...it was always the keeping them interested and un-bored that most of the time seemed impossible. I had tried everything, I gave them everything, and I emotionally opened myself up to them before its was "safe" to...and what do you know...they would loose interest and pursue other "not as nice" guys in my place...some had told me that I was TOO NICE...but I didn't really listen, until I came across this article. It showed me in what areas I had EXACTLY fallen to be a door mat type of guy...I was too nice, and I was giving women my all without them having to give me anything in return. Well a while back I said no more to this, and now I feel as though I'm a well balanced, confident, GOOD guy who's nice whenever he needs to be, but NEVER over does it. If you value yourself then others (mainly the opposite sex) will value you as well...this is something that I've come to learn the hard way...Take it from me TOO TOO NICE = DOORMAT UNAPPRECIATED, TAKEN FOR GRANTED GUY!
stillafool Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 You know I have been reading this thread and it seems that most of you "nice guys" or ex "nice guys" seem to be frustrated because it's beautiful women you want to date. I see a lot of jealousy for the so called "bad boy". It may not be that these guys are so "bad" as much as they have good looks and unique personalities. Much like the beautiful women that you wish to date. Don't you think that unattractive to average looking women want the same thing (to have a goodlooking guy with a unique personality fall in love with her?) Women do not call these beautiful girls "bad girls" because they are desired by many men. Why do you men do this to each other? I'm sorry but you guys sound really "catty". My advice would be to stop the "hating", "get in where you fit in", and for God's sake stop trying to be what you are not (changing from a nice guy to a bad guy or whatever) Just be a "good guy": -good hygiene -good dresser -good personality -good manners -good job -good person
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