This Yahoo article says it all about door mat nice guys...

[imbewildered]

Men need to learn how to assess women and quickly figure what type of woman they are dealing with and treat them accordingly.

 

Ahh.. Woggle strikes again at the heart of the matter..

 

THe difficulty with this piece of advice is that most guys ASSUME that the wrapping represents the contents and do NO further investigation with a new woman.

Secondly, a lot of women are expert actresses...Oscar winners.

[Woggle]

Too many men see a pretty face and a nice bubbly personality without taking a look at what lurks underneath. Many women are very skilled at putting up a front and presenting themselves to be a woman other than who they are. Also many nice guys try to be knights in shining armor when in reality most damsels in distress willingly put themselves there. There are very few women in the relationship world today who truly are victims so don't try to be a rescuer.

[t_veron]

Too many men see a pretty face and a nice bubbly personality without taking a look at what lurks underneath. Many women are very skilled at putting up a front and presenting themselves to be a woman other than who they are. Also many nice guys try to be knights in shining armor when in reality most damsels in distress willingly put themselves there. There are very few women in the relationship world today who truly are victims so don't try to be a rescuer.

 

See it's attitudes like yours that keep the war between the sexes going. Why can't you say "too many people see a pretty face..... without looking for lurks underneath"? I think women are just as much if not more about physical appearance. I doubt you'd go for a guy who is as short if not shorter than you right? Would you date the geeky nerd chubby guy if he walked up to you and asked for your number?

 

Stop with the drama we all want to date above our means so we all have high expectations. While you expect a knight to come into your life you get insecure when he acts accordingly. Here's a writeup I liked which I think applies to men and women. Accept what marriage and relationships are really about and you'll be much happier.

 

http://clearblogs.com/woman2women/13118/+The+Seven+Emotional+Hungers.html

[Woggle]

I am a man and while I am very critical of women men have to be honest with ourselves about how we get ourselves into these situations. This is the first time I have ever been accused of being a woman.

[CaliGuy]

A lot of the information which relationship gurus offer is useful but they tend to downplay certain basic factors purposefully as it is bad for their business.

 

A prime example is when they deemphasize looks and stress confidence.

The latter is ,undoubtedly, important, but the former is crucial also.

Modern people have been raised to appreciate and strive for physical beauty.

 

With this in mind, looks are of paramount importance.

 

If the man is handsome(or the woman beautiful), a lot of , supposedly, important factors are waived as "unimportant".

 

I had an interesting conversation once with a female friend(Marianne, 29).

I asked Marianne if she would be bothered if someone made a move in a club or bar, possibly a bit awkwardly..

She stated she would be offended, unless, the guy was "cute".

 

After a few more minutes of conversation the results were as follows.

 

Cute but crass = He's in!

Plain/Ugly and crass = He's out

Cute and interesting = He's in

Plain/Ugly but interesting = Probably out

 

SO if he is cute, he is given the benefit of the doubt; he can do little or no wrong apparently!

If he is not cute, he better be the conversational equivalent of Jean Paul Sartre, or else he is dead in the water!

 

My point is that physical chemistry cannot be overlooked, and to that end, it is important to cultivate our body and mind.

 

This self-improvement on all levels with bolster our confidence and amplify our attractiveness to the opposite sex.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

CHeers,

 

All of this is well and good but doesn't really stay on the topic which is that simply put, "door mat" nice guys are the ones who lose out in the end. Being attractive always helps and yes, it often causes people to overlook flaws (or red flags) they should not have. But the end result of being a door mat is always the same.

 

You will not be loved or respected. Period.

 

Those who do not love and respect themselves should not expect others to love and respect them either.

[CaliGuy]

Ahh.. Woggle strikes again at the heart of the matter..

 

THe difficulty with this piece of advice is that most guys ASSUME that the wrapping represents the contents and do NO further investigation with a new woman.

Secondly, a lot of women are expert actresses...Oscar winners.

 

 

I bolded the last piece because that is very, very true.

[t_veron]

I am a man and while I am very critical of women men have to be honest with ourselves about how we get ourselves into these situations. This is the first time I have ever been accused of being a woman.

 

Oops really sorry about. Still back what I say but for now going to go crawl under a rock. No offense but sounded kinda girly. Why dog on guys I think we have enough women on here that do just fine in that area.

[t_veron]

I bolded the last piece because that is very, very true.

 

I second that CaliGuy.

[Tomcat33]

All of this is well and good but doesn't really stay on the topic which is that simply put, "door mat" nice guys are the ones who lose out in the end. Being attractive always helps and yes, it often causes people to overlook flaws (or red flags) they should not have. But the end result of being a door mat is always the same.

 

You will not be loved or respected. Period.

 

Those who do not love and respect themselves should not expect others to love and respect them either.

 

 

I am sorry I disagree, what Balthazar posted IS very much on topic because these "don't be a nice guy" or "nice guys finish last" articles appeal to the types of people who have poor self image issues. So naturally if we live in a society that ranks self image as the MOST desirable of qualities, being "too nice" for the below average looking person is actually like sealing the coffin.

 

I have seen this trend as well, good looking people can get away with murder it's a fact of life. Look at OJ Simpson (ok that was a joke don't forget to laugh)

 

 

I attend a lot of work related events that are geared towards company senior management, CEO's and executives and my obesrvation is that with no exaggeration I would say 80% of the men are tall, and or have a good looking presence. Notice I didn't say they are "good looking" I said have "a good looking presence". It is no coincidence that looks and physical appeal play a big part in self confidence and success. So if this happens in the corporate world what is stopping that from transfering itself into the social world? Afterall people buy from people, the products or services sold are irrelevant.

 

In love it is the same you can either sell yourself or you can't. A person who is on the extreme pole of the spectrum ie, too nice or too cocky is not going to be able to sell themselves effectively.

[carhill]

So naturally if we live in a society that ranks self image as the MOST desirable of qualities, being "too nice" for the below average looking person is actually like sealing the coffin.

 

Very true. Lived that life. It taught me a lot, both about myself and the state of our culture.....

 

Notice I didn't say they are "good looking" I said have "a good looking presence". It is no coincidence that looks and physical appeal play a big part in self confidence and success. So if this happens in the corporate world what is stopping that from transfering itself into the social world? Afterall people buy from people, the products or services sold are irrelevant.

 

I see this every day with my customers when competing with other vendors. Style nearly always trumps substance at first blush. Then it's the substance that has to go in later and clean up the mess.

I even see this with my wife. She'll believe the cr@p a good-looking guy tells her about something (lately it's been real estate and home improvement stuff) over her husband who's been grinding away at the same stuff for most of his life. I laugh now, since I'm over the pain. She's "Only human" (to plagiarize agent Jones in the Matrix)

 

My journal on nice guys and good men reflects my most current thoughts regarding women

[Balthazar]

All of this is well and good but doesn't really stay on the topic which is that simply put, "door mat" nice guys are the ones who lose out in the end. Being attractive always helps and yes, it often causes people to overlook flaws (or red flags) they should not have. But the end result of being a door mat is always the same.

 

You will not be loved or respected. Period.

 

Those who do not love and respect themselves should not expect others to love and respect them either.

 

I Agree.

I was arguing about how to avoid becoming a "doormat" through self improvement.

 

But the purpose of a doormat is to wipe your feet on it, not love and respect it.

So, the women are just doing they are supposed to.

Female doormats get the same treatment as male ones, don't they?

 

CHeers,

[mousse]

It is a classic pile or ignorance, and just more of the pulp about "strong women" ( whatever that means) and "vulnerable men ", that you ladies WANT to believe.

 

I am man and I know a lot of men both personally and professionally..

We all gain "validation" from their careers, our intellectual pursuits , our actons, our recreation and our sports and our acheivements in general .

WE do NOT look for "validation " from the woman(women) in out life or by having one. WE look for sex and emotional involvement, loyalty and respect.

 

Secondly the vast majority of men do not love Baitches .We are repulsed by "Baitches".

I could care less what some cash strapped author wrote to the contrary in some "self help " book aimed at gullible, confused women.

 

You're missing the point imbewildered. I'm not saying men look for validation from the women, nor that they're attracted to "bitches" in the classical sense of the word. I don't think that men are attracted to selfish and drama queen type of women.

 

I do think that it's important for women to be independent, learn to be respected in their relationships and to have a full life outside of this relationship. Many women overinvest time in their relationship, sacrifice a lot of things for their relationship and I believe that it's not attractive for men. That's what I've observed in real life.

[Woggle]

Oops really sorry about. Still back what I say but for now going to go crawl under a rock. No offense but sounded kinda girly. Why dog on guys I think we have enough women on here that do just fine in that area.

 

I don't dog on men but we need to realize how many of us put a kick me sign on our backs when it comes to women.

[imbewildered]

You're missing the point imbewildered. I'm not saying men look for validation from the women, nor that they're attracted to "bitches" in the classical sense of the word. I don't think that men are attracted to selfish and drama queen type of women.

 

 

 

You endorsed this view and now you are retreating..

 

You clearly know zip about men and little about relationships.

 

You are welcome to have the last word here if you wish.

[imbewildered]

Here's another article that I really like, it gives the same type of advices for women and it pretty much sums up the book "why men love bitches".

 

http://www.couplescompany.com/advice/TOM/Man1.htm

 

Here is where you started to take a position.

[CaliGuy]

But the purpose of a doormat is to wipe your feet on it, not love and respect it.

 

Line of the year right there

[bones1]

I have found this to be true, but here is the problem..

 

When you do not care for a girl that much, you naturally do not want to be around her, take her out, buy her things etc. She might make an excellent girlfriend, but you are not into her, although she is crazy about you, since you are unavailable.

 

When you meet a woman you are very interested in, and a woman who values herself, you are treating her in a more respectful way, and naturally because you are very interested. Would this woman also be crazy about me if I do not call for a week, like the ones i am not into?

 

And sooner or later, even if you are the cocky cool guy who doesn't care that much, you will either feel like taking the relationship to the next level, (then she will become bored?), or you will live a life of acting and pretending as if you are not that into someone whom you really are.

 

Of course being a big wuss or doormat is not appealing. But if you are with a woman who constantly needs to chase, is their much of a future?

[t_veron]

I have found this to be true, but here is the problem..

 

When you do not care for a girl that much, you naturally do not want to be around her, take her out, buy her things etc. She might make an excellent girlfriend, but you are not into her, although she is crazy about you, since you are unavailable.

 

When you meet a woman you are very interested in, and a woman who values herself, you are treating her in a more respectful way, and naturally because you are very interested. Would this woman also be crazy about me if I do not call for a week, like the ones i am not into?

 

And sooner or later, even if you are the cocky cool guy who doesn't care that much, you will either feel like taking the relationship to the next level, (then she will become bored?), or you will live a life of acting and pretending as if you are not that into someone whom you really are.

 

Of course being a big wuss or doormat is not appealing. But if you are with a woman who constantly needs to chase, is their much of a future?

 

I think this is so true. This is the part all the advice coming at us don't get into. Basically do you want to play a game for the rest of your life or do you want to just be yourself because you have other things you'd like to put your attention into like work, friends, kids, vacations, etc.... This is only fun when you're young and dating trying to have fun.

[bones1]

As an example, I remember being the aloof more arrogant guy with a couple women. The girls were in total love. They grew on me. Then as the relationship progressed, they pulled away.

 

So when you are being the aloof arrogant confident guy who doesnt seem to care, isn't it just delaying the inevitable as..

1. You are really not that into her

2. Sooner or later you will progress, and then she will leave.

 

And to be honest, people need to be with someone similar to themselves. As for myself, I work, own a business, play tennis, and read. I am more that type of person who does not have or need a huge circle of buddies, or have everyday of my schedule filled up. I am happy that way.

 

So if I meet a woman who works, and is so busy she is never free, I am turned off. I like to be with the woman I am with in my free time. So, I need a woman whom is like that as well. Should I start dating a woman and then take up tons of hobbies so I can show her i don't have much time for her, then she will want me?

 

I have never called a woman 20 times a day, or told them I love them early, etc. Obviously that is ridiculous. That is common sense.

 

I think a better way to put it is to meet a woman who is content and respects your life and goals. Then stick with your life and goals, and she is welcome to come along.

[CaliGuy]

I think a better way to put it is to meet a woman who is content and respects your life and goals. Then stick with your life and goals, and she is welcome to come along.

 

This is a very easy concept to understand but extremely difficult for people to put into place. They keep thinking "I can change him/her!" but in reality, you shouldn't WANT to change them.

 

You should love them for who they are, not who/what you think you can mold them into.

[imbewildered]

The reason that "nice guys" come last and get used for favors, free dinners, and chauffeur duty is simple to understand .

Women are NOt attracted to men who do NOT lead.

Women say all manner of things which confuse men ,heck, I think that most times women confuse themselves. One of the old favorites is that they want a "nice" or "sensitive " guy.. Who knows what this means (even it it were true which I doubt)

Based on MY experience and observations, women do indeed want a "nice " guy in their lives BUT not in the role of an SO. The function of a "nice " guy is to be her fawning servant. Take her places,wash her car and step in to comfort her when she and that bad boy break up for the tenth time.

Sure, she has some affection for a NICE guy but not that deep down ATTRACTION.

 

The nice guy does not assert his RIGHTFUL leadership - he follows her whims, wants and moods HOPING that she will realize what a sweet guy he is and fall for him. It never works- he gets exploited, she treats him like a "male girlfriend" and that bad boy bangs her when it suits him.

 

Fact of life.

[kladia]

they're babied and end up being metro-sexual wussies.

 

i do love a guy who spends more time on his hair than me, bring on the metros.

 

and i hate to break it to you, but your avatar's pretty metro lookin'.

[bayouboi]

and i hate to break it to you, but your avatar's pretty metro lookin'.

 

lol oh no you just didden

[Cherry Blossom 35]

The reason that "nice guys" come last and get used for favors, free dinners, and chauffeur duty is simple to understand .

Women are NOt attracted to men who do NOT lead.

Women say all manner of things which confuse men ,heck, I think that most times women confuse themselves. One of the old favorites is that they want a "nice" or "sensitive " guy.. Who knows what this means (even it it were true which I doubt)

Based on MY experience and observations, women do indeed want a "nice " guy in their lives BUT not in the role of an SO. The function of a "nice " guy is to be her fawning servant. Take her places,wash her car and step in to comfort her when she and that bad boy break up for the tenth time.

Sure, she has some affection for a NICE guy but not that deep down ATTRACTION.

 

The nice guy does not assert his RIGHTFUL leadership - he follows her whims, wants and moods HOPING that she will realize what a sweet guy he is and fall for him. It never works- he gets exploited, she treats him like a "male girlfriend" and that bad boy bangs her when it suits him.

 

Fact of life.

 

 

This sounds like a self help book. It doesn't sound like you are describing real people, just stereotypes. Everything is not so black and white. We are all a mix of traits, some more dominant than others.

 

I'm not saying you don't have some good points, because there are a couple good nuggets there. It just sounds so....like that Tom Cruise character in Magnolia!

[CaliGuy]

they're babied and end up being metro-sexual wussies.

 

i do love a guy who spends more time on his hair than me, bring on the metros.

 

and i hate to break it to you, but your avatar's pretty metro lookin'.

 

I can't help it -- I'm sexy....