Mahatma Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Honestly, people just generalize "nice" and being a push over. It is OK to be nice to a girl when she deserves it. Just because a girl is hot, many guys are willing to do almost anything for her, instead guys need to look for more than looks in a girl. This is what turns a girl on from my experience. As soon as you find something in her which you really respect, let her know that and reward her for that trait and show that you are interested in that. If you are immediately her butler, she will never respect you because you don't respect yourself.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 I wasn't asking if you had a roster. I was just asking if you had any idea why you bring out such strong reactions. Probably because I bring up controversial topics, I suppose.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 Fair enough Caliguy, I have not read that book, nor will I pretend to know what it is about. I was refering to the Catch him and Keep Him, The Rules, Why Nice guys Finish Last all that stuff and other crap sold online to entice people to entrap other human beings and double their game. I subscribed to the CHAKH newsletter just for curiosity and made my mind up onw what I saw which was enough. I understand. The title of the book is VERY, VERY misleading. It is in no way a book on how to be a jerk. Instead, as I mentioned before, it is a book who's sole purpose is to break men of their wussy/metro-sexual behavior. I recommend the book so often to the self-proclaimed nice guys because I have been there and I have read the book and I know what it did for me. And my comments were also in reference to the article you posted here which I thought was basic but I suppose to some people it could prove to be quite newsworthy. I have read so much on this arena, I go to a lot of sociology seminars etc because human behaviour fascinates me, so for the people who don't take such interest maybe this is news to them...and I can't compare my own knowledge to the rest when I have an active role in obtaining it. You would not believe the number of nice guy topics on this message board. I bring it up occasionally when I see them so that I can remind the men they aren't nice but door mats. They are manipulative men (often not realizing they are being manipulative) who use gifts and acts of kindness to get the love and affection they desire instead of just being happy and confident in who they are. It is very akin to a little boy pounding his fist on the floor when mommy won't buy him the toy he wants. Girly/Metro-sexual/Wussy men. They should read the book. Personally I think they all need to go to Marine Corps boot camp.
Crestfallen_KH Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I guess I don't understand why people seem almost offended at the notion of changing behaviors to accrue more favorable results. You may have green eyes, be thin but have a big butt, have red hair and be short. The book (and books like it) aren't saying to run out, get colored contacts, have lipsuction, dye your hair and put lifts in your shoes to become another person; they are recommending that you consider changing your behavior. And our behaviors are absolutely 100% changeable if we wish to do so. I can't go from 5'10" to 5'6" even if I wanted to, but I can stop running over to his house when drunk dials me, act needy and clingy, and pester him with "Where do you think this relationship is going?" conversations all the time. These are all alterable behaviors. I know, many of you are experts and think this is all so obvious and everyone should just know it - well, many don't. And they aren't all teenagers either. Most of these books don't ask you to change who you are as an individual, or what you like and don't like. And any book that does, would absolutely not be regarded as reliable by me. But if I'm tryihg to figure out a way to land more dates or stop sabotaging relationships, there is NOTHING wrong with reading one of these books to see what behaviors I could consider adopting or stop doing. If I suck at plumbing, I'm darn well going to buy a book on how to do it and not be critical of myself for just "not automatically knowing this." Self-improvement is founded on education and changing the behaviors that don't work or sabotage you.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 I guess I don't understand why people seem almost offended at the notion of changing behaviors to accrue more favorable results. You may have green eyes, be thin but have a big butt, have red hair and be short. The book (and books like it) aren't saying to run out, get colored contacts, have lipsuction, dye your hair and put lifts in your shoes to become another person; they are recommending that you consider changing your behavior. And our behaviors are absolutely 100% changeable if we wish to do so. I can't go from 5'10" to 5'6" even if I wanted to, but I can stop running over to his house when drunk dials me, act needy and clingy, and pester him with "Where do you think this relationship is going?" conversations all the time. These are all alterable behaviors. I know, many of you are experts and think this is all so obvious and everyone should just know it - well, many don't. And they aren't all teenagers either. Most of these books don't ask you to change who you are or what you like and don't like. And any book that does, would absolutely not be regarded as reliable by me. But if I'm tryihg to figure out a way to land more dates or stop sabotaging relationships, there is NOTHING wrong with reading one of these books to see what behaviors I could consider adopting or stop doing. If I suck at plumbing, I'm darn well going to buy a book on how to do it and not be critical at myself for just "not automatically knowing this." Self-improvement is founded on education and changing the behaviors that don't work or sabotage you. Exactly! The books aren't saying "change who you are". The book I am recommending aims to SHOW men how their behavior pushes the love they desire away from them and how to be self-controlled, confident and self-assured. The by-product of those behaviors will eventually bring the RIGHT woman into your life. It doesn't even remotely allude to changing your outward appearance but the inner wussy you that drives women away. Kind of like "Double your Dating" without the cheesy pickup lines and ultimate goal of picking up women at bars. The book will show men how to have a lasting, meaningful relationship and hopefully kill the little boy inside them (the bad part, that is).
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 Honestly, people just generalize "nice" and being a push over. It is OK to be nice to a girl when she deserves it. Just because a girl is hot, many guys are willing to do almost anything for her, instead guys need to look for more than looks in a girl. This is what turns a girl on from my experience. As soon as you find something in her which you really respect, let her know that and reward her for that trait and show that you are interested in that. If you are immediately her butler, she will never respect you because you don't respect yourself. When we speak of "nice guy" we're referring to door mat men. Good, confident, well-balanced men are not "nice", they are GOOD. Nice when they should be, mean when they should be (in other words, not being a push over wuss or he'll fail the test). Cheers.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 You would not believe the number of nice guy topics on this message board. I bring it up occasionally when I see them so that I can remind the men they aren't nice but door mats. They are manipulative men (often not realizing they are being manipulative) who use gifts and acts of kindness to get the love and affection they desire instead of just being happy and confident in who they are. It is very akin to a little boy pounding his fist on the floor when mommy won't buy him the toy he wants. Girly/Metro-sexual/Wussy men. They should read the book. Personally I think they all need to go to Marine Corps boot camp. Fair enough and point totally taken. I'll get my coat....
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I think it is possible to be vulnerable and still be confident. If you love someone and love them, you do want to be nice and show them you are there for it. There is nothing wrong with a man having a sensitive side and showing it, and it is not going to drive women away who have a sincere interest in the true person, not a put-on fascade. The book is basically saying 'Be the emotionally unavailable man and the women will come running, even if you do have emotions and your instinct is to show them to the woman you're interested in.' I'm starting to see Johan's point on this. Then to bring personal style into it - Metro Sexual, Marines...etc...it's kind of scary that you're equivicating a relationship to the Marines and war and defense.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 I think it is possible to be vulnerable and still be confident. If you love someone and love them, you do want to be nice and show them you are there for it. There is nothing wrong with a man having a sensitive side and showing it, and it is not going to drive women away who have a sincere interest in the true person, not a put-on fascade. The book is basically saying 'Be the emotionally unavailable man and the women will come running, even if you do have emotions and your instinct is to show them to the woman you're interested in.' That's not what the book is saying at all. And yes, it's ok to show your soft side occasionally, just not all the time. And the difference is what makes a wussy door mat and someone who is genuine. I'm starting to see Johan's point on this. Then to bring personal style into it - Metro Sexual, Marines...etc...it's kind of scary that you're equivicating a relationship to the Marines and war and defense. When it comes to being a man and getting rid of the little boy in you that makes you act like a wuss, yeah I'd saying comparing it to Marine Corps boot camp is a good example. I never once said war and defense. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I wasn't putting words in anyone's mouth. Just giving my opinion. That's not what the book is saying at all. And yes, it's ok to show your soft side occasionally, just not all the time. And the difference is what makes a wussy door mat and someone who is genuine. When it comes to being a man and getting rid of the little boy in you that makes you act like a wuss, yeah I'd saying comparing it to Marine Corps boot camp is a good example. I never once said war and defense. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.
BrooklynBridge Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I can summarize this in one sentence based on my experiences: I am an as$hole and women keep falling in love with me.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I can summarize this in one sentence based on my experiences: I am an as$hole and women keep falling in love with me. what kind of women? If I recall a few weeks ago you started a thread that these women you are just not that into fall in love with you. So it is safe to say the kinds of women that fall for this kind of attitude are not the most desirable for men, otherwise you would be reciprocating that love for them. You are the perfect example of why azzholes don't finish first. You might get quantity and if that is what you are after then by all means be my guest but you clearly don't get quality. Anyone with a few good tricks up their sleeve can get quantity, take it from me a woman who doesn't have to try super hard to get quantity that it's easy enough. Quality is harder to come by and that's where it's at.
imbewildered Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Being honest and showing a woman that I like her as soon as I feel that way makes me needy? WTF? . Yes it does UNTIL you have established your VALUE to her . Women will tell you differently but they say a lot of things which are inconsistent with their behavior. YOu need to show JUST enough interest to make her feel that she is validated and flattered by your attention BUT not so much that she thinks that you want MORE from her than she wants to give. And if you absolutely MUST show your hand , do so physically. Never have "the talk " . Let her know in dribs and drabs.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 I can summarize this in one sentence based on my experiences: I am an as$hole and women keep falling in love with me. Wrong. Being an arse doesn't make women fall in love with you. It gives them the optical illusion that you are confident and secure in yourself, but really arses are just as insecure and needy as door mat men. Well balanced, confident, secure men don't need to be arses to attract women. They seem confident because they ARE. They seem self-assured because they ARE. They seem to not be needy because they aren't. Arseholes and door mat men are none of the above.
I am who I am Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I never knew that dating was so difficult until I stumbled across this site. I really thought that it was common sense. I know, I know... common sense isn't so common... The article is a great beginners guide, but there are many other things that go into building and maintaining a woman's interest. I have found the best way to avoid the pitfalls that the article mentions, is to be dating several women at once, not to follow some preset rules that tells me when and how to do something (like when to call?!? haha... yeah... oookay) Now, I know this thread started to discuss "How to get" books. Never read them, so I can't comment on them directly, but I don't see how they could be a negative. Not everyone is a "natural" with the ladies (just look at some of my friends! @ Tomcat Quantity vs. Quality.. Well, I have found that it is a numbers game. I have to date lots of women in order to find the quality ones. Currently dating a 22, 24, and a 29 year old (I'm 34). Now, are any of them "quality"... maybe, maybe not, thats why I'm dating them... to find out! And dating isn't always about finding a life-long partner. I find dating to be fun! Meeting new people is a great way to spend some free time.
I am who I am Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Originally Posted by Stockalone Being honest and showing a woman that I like her as soon as I feel that way makes me needy? WTF?Yes it does UNTIL you have established your VALUE to her . Women will tell you differently but they say a lot of things which are inconsistent with their behavior. YOu need to show JUST enough interest to make her feel that she is validated and flattered by your attention BUT not so much that she thinks that you want MORE from her than she wants to give. And if you absolutely MUST show your hand , do so physically. Never have "the talk " . Let her know in dribs and drabs. Speak the truth brother!
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Wrong. Well balanced, confident, secure men don't need to be arses to attract women. They seem confident because they ARE. They seem self-assured because they ARE. They seem to not be needy because they aren't. Arseholes and door mat men are none of the above. Precisely. @ Tomcat Quantity vs. Quality.. Well, I have found that it is a numbers game. I have to date lots of women in order to find the quality ones. Currently dating a 22, 24, and a 29 year old (I'm 34). Now, are any of them "quality"... maybe, maybe not, thats why I'm dating them... to find out! Of course! I was never implying that you should not date and try on different shoes for fit, it's the only way to do it. I enjoy dating as well a LOT. But you don't have to adapt a certain persona to double your game when your game will only attract the types of people that end up annoying you instead of appealing to you. So when I say quality vs quantity what I mean is wouldn't you rather be out on less dates and be more selective in who you spend a saturday night out with than to have a lot of dates that just don't cut it, simply to say you are dating a lot? When you, as a guy aim for these "get rich quick schemes" which some of these dating manuals profess to do, you end up with a bunch of nothingness, yeah sure you get to date a lot but what are you dating? Like when you go to an all you can eat buffet, sure you end up sampling a whole bunch of crap but at the end of the meal you feel like you ate way too much and you you didn't really have a meal, and on top of it you end up with indigestion an hour later. I value my time and I personally value who I spend my time with, I would much rather be alone then accompanied by someone whom I am counting the minutes til it's over and done with. You can still go out on a bunch of dates but be selective in doing so.
Stockalone Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Yes it does UNTIL you have established your VALUE to her . Women will tell you differently but they say a lot of things which are inconsistent with their behavior. YOu need to show JUST enough interest to make her feel that she is validated and flattered by your attention BUT not so much that she thinks that you want MORE from her than she wants to give. And if you absolutely MUST show your hand , do so physically. Never have "the talk " . Let her know in dribs and drabs. Well, I didn't understand that concept for quite some time. I always thought it was stupid and still do, but then I came to accept that this is how things are and played along. I adapted as much as I could without compromising who I am.
I am who I am Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Like when you go to an all you can eat buffet, sure you end up sampling a whole bunch of crap but at the end of the meal........ you end up with indigestion an hour later ROFL :lmao: There's a lot of truth in that statement! Yeah, I get where you are coming from and agree whole-heartedly. I'm a quick study on people. Generally by the third date (sometimes on the first), I have seen enough red flags to determine if I wish to keep pursuing the relationship or not. The tricky part, however, is when I only have a brief encounter with a girl, get their number, and then "meet" them on the first date.... Never know what you're gonna get! (((Well, she looks cute! >>> hour into date>>> So that's why your single!!! <looks around for ejection button> )))
lino Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I don't see anything new or special about this article. It says the same thing the other 213243432543 ones you can find on the net just like it do.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 ! (((Well, she looks cute! >>> hour into date>>> So that's why your single!!! <looks around for ejection button> ))) :lmao: that's a good one booooy could I use one of those on some dates I have been on. That or an ACME portable hole. It is just funny how some of this online literature boosts how men can get more chicks and for women how women can "trap" more men! They are fighting with each other to outdo the genders. How about we all just chill out, let love take its course and in our down time work on being the best that we can be in terms of having a well rounded life and a healthy self image, and date to learn and have fun, not to desperately find love. The rest is totally up to fate. I strongly believe that at least. I remember I went through a phase after a long rel I had just gotten out of and I wanted to try out internet dating (it was just starting to hit big and everyone was doing it so thought what the hay) and I was dating two, three different guys a week. Let me tell you there was no shortage of dinners, drinks, and theatre invites, BUT I did not fall in love with any of the men I dated there. I actually met a guy doing volunteer work and working for a local hospital working on their gala and events committee. In fact every single time love has come into my life it has happend when I was least expecting it and totally when I was looking the other way. This has happened enough times that I am hip to the outcome so when I am single I totally chill out and enjoy being on my own and have faith that when it's the right time things will happen. You know how animals smell panic and how experts will tell you if you see a bear don't move and don't act abruptly and don't let it smell the fear in you? Well we are not that much different. Fear and panic can still be smelled intuitively from person to person. When you try to follow all these mass consumption dating tactics you still can't hide that fear, you can cheat the eyes but you can't cheat the nose. And I didn't mean the book you recommended Cali I meant more the nature of the article you posted.
sumdude Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 For people who are 'naturals' and for whatever reason grew up with a solid self image and good self esteem I bet a lot of these articles and books probably seem like "Well no sh** Sherlock." Consider yourselves lucky... For me... having been on both sides of the confident/too nice realities some of that stuff help makes sense of things I may not have understood before. A lot of the stuff is garbage out there preying on lonely people and want to tell you how to get 'game' and be a 'pickup artist'. On the other hand some of them actually go into educating about interaction between the sexes and how to work on yourself to become the confident self-assured person you want to be who is naturally more attractive.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 Sumdude, the reason I posted the article is it pointed out some flaws in the behavior of "clingy/needy" men that sometimes is hard for them to recognize. It isn't an article on "how to get game" but more or less and article explaining that their need/clingy behavior is not nice at all, but very 'door mat-ish'. That in and of itself is inherently unattractive to women. It's not saying be a jerk or play the game but more or less -- in a very kind way -- get a life
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Basically these books, including "Nice Guys" "The Rules" "Why Men Love Bitches" etc. etc. etc. are stating "You have to love yourself before someone else will love you." I really believe that's true. Any book that is telling a guy "don't give gifts right away" "don't call her too much" I don't agree with, however, because if it is in his personality to give a gift right away because it suits her, you are telling him not to and to change his personality. For example, if on our first date we talked about our favorite bands and I said "I have a thing for the Moldy Peaches, they're awesome" and then before the next date he happened to run across a Moldy Peaches t-shirt and he bought it for me, I would think this guy is awesome and creative. Your book would tell me that he is a schmuck. When I have dated a guy, the guy has called pretty much every day and this I liked because it showed true interest and he wasn't following the "don't call for 3 days" crap that books like the one you are saying. So I'm going to have to go by what Johan is stating here. I don't want some guy to think twice all the time...hmm, I'm calling right now because I like this girl...hmmm, the book is stating I'm a weeny schmuck if I do this....what should I do? THAT is a weeny, in my opinion, if you have to rely on a book to make dating decisions. Don't buy gifts is a very specific instruction so the book is no different than any of the other "follow the numbers" dating books out there.
Balthazar Posted June 24, 2008 Posted June 24, 2008 I am coming to this thread quite late. Hopefully, I am not repeating what another poster mentioned. It is my sincere belief that these "self-improvement" books can definitely help men and women out there. Some people are clueless, and are in dire need of instruction on male-female relationships. But we can't follow all the rules set out in these books as if they are the tablets of Moses. All information in these books must be properly interpreted and filtered. Finally, the information must be calibrated to fit the differing instances in each couple's relationship. For example, Calisto mentioned how a gift(a T-shirt)brought her closer to her BF. In that instance, it was correct for him to follow his instincts rather than some rule in a book. In other cases, the no-gift rule may be quite applicable(the case of a goldigger for example) and may save us from a lot of trouble. A mistake many of us make(myself included) is to hand out generic advice, usually as prescribed in these books. Don't get me wrong, there are times the advice is solid, but at others it may be catastrophic. We all need to exercise great care, CHeers,
Recommended Posts