carhill Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Even if not a "doormat", but rather a polite gentleman, even one mindful of his own boundaries, perceived attraction is still limited IME. I think women buy as much into this cultural socialization as men do. As an socio-psychological anarchist, I have a different perspective I'm really starting to understand the psychology of emotionally damaged women, how they mask and the resultant exhibited attraction. Too bad it's taken 50 years ..... I think Calisto's perspective is laudable, but IME in the minority. I have to wonder out loud if such perspective, if sincere, stems from a healthy socialization process (role models, social and spiritual exposure and the like) or if it is an intrinsic psychological trait, much like some men here on LS, myself included, can't "help it" that we treat women a certain way, not purposefully rather just naturally, and such behavior is received in non-positive or unattractive way. Since the focus of the article was "getting girls", perhaps pragmatism must rule idealism in this case. I will report on my progress in my journals.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I do believe you can pick up tips here and there in those types of books, but I don't think they are the be-all, end-all. I totally fell for and was in a relationship with a man for 3 years who was crazy about me from the start, and didn't fear showing it. Our first date was a few days before Christmas, and we weren't able to see each other again until after Christmas, but on our second date for New Year's Eve, he bought me a beautiful cashmere wrap. He just thought when he saw it it was "me" and he wanted to buy me a holiday gift. He called everyday in between. I shortly fell in love with him because he was caring and giving and not afraid to be vulnerable. Yes you are saying but why is he your ex? Well, sometimes relationships don't work out, but I never lost respect for this man and the woman who does end up with this man is a very lucky woman. It just wasn't meant to be for us. We are still friends. If he had followed your book, I would not have fallen for him and met a great guy in the process.
Trialbyfire Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 No matter what recipe style book you read, what set of rules you follow, or what 400 ft list of positive attributes you have, you can't force chemistry. It's like a lightening strike. It just happens. If it never happens, are you withholding your own feelings, afraid to be vulnerable? Are the people you target, the incompatible types?
sid3 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 CG I posted a thread in 2nd chances "why would an ex?" would really like to hear your opinion and your advice. i went from healing to feeling like a doormat in the blink of an eye. Urghh.. BTW, probably shouldn't have read Glover's book while visiting my parents..wasn't babied, but alot of what he says hits a nerve.
Suiyobi Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Everytime I'm reminded of things like these, I just feel like beating myself up for being cursed. I seriously am trying to change my ways. I have no problems being approachable to women, my problem is getting them interested in me in more than a friendly level. And so I read things like these, get motivated, I try to get "better". But alas, reality kicks in and I find myself not getting any success. A person can't change overnight is what I've learned from all of this, apparently.
johan Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 If you "stick to methods" someone wrote in a book, are you being yourself?
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 If a guy has lacked confidence in the past and it has affected his relationships, then following the book might be good and it might be a way to find inner confidence that you already had but you weren't using it. That said, I do not want to heavily rely on such books but they can be helpful.
johan Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 How would you feel if someone you were dating said to you "this is going well right now, because of the methods I'm using"? Would you feel you really knew the person or would you feel you were being deceived?
Tomcat33 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 If you "stick to methods" someone wrote in a book, are you being yourself? Exactly! that's why these types of books fail miserably with reforming the ones that don't have a clue, and any person who does have clue can see right through a person that is trying too hard. I do think they serve a purpose and if people could learn to take literature like this with a grain of salt and be very careful in adapting the concepts it can work in your favour but for a good majority it does not, because it's like you said Johan it turns people into someone they are not and nothing is more unattractive than seeing a person who is trying to be something they are not.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 How would you feel if someone you were dating said to you "this is going well right now, because of the methods I'm using"? Would you feel you really knew the person or would you feel you were being deceived? I don't think someone would say that, but I think we all have gotten words of wisdom from books, television, friends, etc. I think if I were with someone for a while and we were in a serious relationship, and he mentioned that this book helped him gain confidence in dating, I wouldn't feel deceived. Not at all. If you're spending a lot of time with someone, you are going to fall in love with them, not the book, the true essence of them are going to shine through no matter what.
OpenBook Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 The thing that struck me about the article was the author's assumption about the woman's reaction to the guy who's going ape over her: "The nice guy cares too much, too soon. He has made the woman too important and too valuable and it shows in everything he says and does. He is too available, too eager to please, too accommodating, and he gives too much -- all without getting anything in return. By doing so, he has made himself appear desperate, insecure, needy of this woman's attention, affection, and approval -- and he has stripped himself of any value in her eyes. After all, if he's already doing and giving everything, without her doing or giving anything - why would she value him? She won't. She is not going to value him any more than he values himself. What she is going to do is look for someone else, someone who she perceives as being more worthy, more confident, and more valuable." When a guy acts like this toward me (and doesn't know me very well), I always get the impression that he's after something that he thinks I represent - not me. He's not seeing ME for who I am. He's projecting his own ideal onto me. I might as well be a plastic blowup doll. IT'S NOT ME HE WANTS. He wants me to fill some role he's got in his head. The whole thing smells phony to me. That's what turns me off. Not the self-devaluing behavior stuff. That said, I think there is some truth in the article. For everybody. If you show the world you value yourself, it tends to follow suit. Same in reverse - if you go around like a wounded animal, people have a tendency to want to kick you again.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I disagree about the age difference thing. Cali could have been focused on his career and he was attracted to her youth, and 22 is an ideal childbearing age. She will still have the energy to raise a child, which he is now ready to embrace. If he found a younger woman and fell in love with her, and she was wanting to have children soon and was equally in love, then it could be a great match.
johan Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I think the only thing I got out of the article is that you can be paid and have your writing published without having a single original thought. It was written primarily for high school kids who are just getting into dating. It should have been in a teen magazine, geared toward kids for whom such ideas are exciting and new. It's for boys who are trying to date women.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Johan, if you were seeing a woman for say...8 months, it's serious, she's everything you could ever want and you are blissfully happy with her...and you are staying at her place one night and discover a well-worn copy of Christian Carter's "Catch Him and Keep Him" series, and it's obvious the entire DVD set and notebook have all been read and she has completed all the worksheet exercises, etc.....would this change your feelings for her?
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I do think that such a relationship could work. That is not the point of the thread. Also, I stated that if both people were in love. Did I say the relationship would be solely based on child-bearing? No. I'm saying it could actually work in many ways.
Gatormaniac Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I'm supremely confident about one thing, being true to ones self is much more important than any relationship...or getting laid. I don't come off as a confident, take charge kind of guy although I'm confident in my abilities and sexuality. I come from modest, kind, and humble beginnings...that's a part of me I'm not willing to sacrifice...for anyone. If some women consider that a weakness, then they have much to learn.
johan Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Johan, if you were seeing a woman for say...8 months, it's serious, she's everything you could ever want and you are blissfully happy with her...and you are staying at her place one night and discover a well-worn copy of Christian Carter's "Catch Him and Keep Him" series, and it's obvious the entire DVD set and notebook have all been read and she has completed all the worksheet exercises, etc.....would this change your feelings for her? I don't know what those books have to say. If it was the woman's version of a Guide to Being a Balanced Guy, I think I would lose a little bit of respect for her, to be honest. I don't really want someone to use "techniques" on me. I don't want someone who uses tape flags in a book to remind herself how to be with me. Not because I expect her to be so self-assured or perfect, but more because she must be someone who doesn't feel comfortable being herself with me. Sooner or later, when things get tough, everything that book has to say is going to go right out the window and I'm going to find out who she really is. And that's who I'm going to have to figure out if I want to keep. I honestly think the value of books like that is not in that they help bring about change. It's more in that they bring hope for bitter people. The actual change is rare. People can't really hide who they are when insecurities get triggered. And what those books tell me about someone is that they have some level of self-rejection going on, and it's the particular kind that directly affects me. And that's something to watch.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 That is a good answer. Catch Him and Keep Him basically gives out a lot of the same concepts of being confident to women.
Tomcat33 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 That is a good answer. Catch Him and Keep Him basically gives out a lot of the same concepts of being confident to women. Yes but Catch him and Keep him also describes tactics that will win a man over, and as Johan said in the long run these tactics will fall short of reality because a person can sustain the gameplan for so long until they feel they can kick their feet up and show their true colours and this is when men decide...hmmm is this really who I settled to be with? So much of this self help stuff comes from a good place but ultimately gets bogged down by all the "tactics" because it is the tactics that people buy into, the populace feels they are getting their money's worth when they are give "tools" to work with rather than concepts to learn and adapt to alter the self to become a more enlightened human being. But tactics are not tools they are schemes and nothing great can come out of scheming to win something. I would save my money and skip all the self help fads and I would invest in real psychology to read and truly understand the hows and whys we are as we are as human beings romatically speaking. A great recommendation I was given in a point in my life was the book Getting The Love You Need, it is hard to grasp at times but once you do it builds a solid foundation for understanding how men and women relate. Also don't shy away from hearing motivational speakers (Mike Lipkin comes to mind) that don't particularly talk about romantic relationships they may focus on professional relationships but a lot of the concepts can be adapted to how we engage others and that is the foundation of any relationship "how one human being engages another". I know it sounds cheesy but heck if you are willing to purchase an ebook by David Deangelo or Catch him and Keep him to get dates it doesn't really get any cheesier than that really so what have you got to lose...?
Author CaliGuy Posted June 22, 2008 Author Posted June 22, 2008 Hey Tomcat, that's all well and good, but the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" isn't about "techniques for picking chicks up." It's basically a self help book that assists men in losing the "door mat" personality. I'm not suggesting one read a book and "become" the book. I am suggesting one gets what they need from the book to make the adjustments necessary in their life to change the aspect that causes them relationship grief. It may be one thing, it may be 10 things. Once again, I suggest you read the book before criticising it. Johan, since my own sense of self worth isn't determined by what people on LS think about me, I haven't kept track of who is on the "love" and "hate" side of the Caliguy train. Cheers.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 LOL -yeah, Catch Him and Keep Him, there is no subtext there.
Author CaliGuy Posted June 22, 2008 Author Posted June 22, 2008 CG I posted a thread in 2nd chances "why would an ex?" would really like to hear your opinion and your advice. i went from healing to feeling like a doormat in the blink of an eye. Urghh.. BTW, probably shouldn't have read Glover's book while visiting my parents..wasn't babied, but alot of what he says hits a nerve. I did read your thread and felt most of the people responding were pretty much dead on. I didn't really have anything to add. Read the book I suggested. I think it will help you. I was in your situation once and it took reading the book for me to understand how my behavior was effecting my relationships and then adjusting my attitude accordingly.
Tomcat33 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Hey Tomcat, that's all well and good, but the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" isn't about "techniques for picking chicks up." It's basically a self help book that assists men in losing the "door mat" personality. Fair enough Caliguy, I have not read that book, nor will I pretend to know what it is about. I was refering to the Catch him and Keep Him, The Rules, Why Nice guys Finish Last all that stuff and other crap sold online to entice people to entrap other human beings and double their game. I subscribed to the CHAKH newsletter just for curiosity and made my mind up onw what I saw which was enough. And my comments were also in reference to the article you posted here which I thought was basic but I suppose to some people it could prove to be quite newsworthy. I have read so much on this arena, I go to a lot of sociology seminars etc because human behaviour fascinates me, so for the people who don't take such interest maybe this is news to them...and I can't compare my own knowledge to the rest when I have an active role in obtaining it.
Phily Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 These types of articles are ridiculous... Everyone perceives a relationship and their potential significant other differently. Articles like this one are one of the major reasons why the majority of relationships don't last.
johan Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Johan, since my own sense of self worth isn't determined by what people on LS think about me, I haven't kept track of who is on the "love" and "hate" side of the Caliguy train. Cheers. I wasn't asking if you had a roster. I was just asking if you had any idea why you bring out such strong reactions.
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