Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Apparently so.. in response to my inquiry early on.... Oh sorry. I missed that.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 You were a bit typsy and he knew what he wanted and went after it aggressively. You told him to leave but he didn't. You say it wasn't forced sex, but it doesn't really sound consensual to me. Absolutely. You get it. I'm glad there are men out there like you.
Jilly Bean Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 So walking a guy to the door and saying "It's time for you to leave" could be interpreted differently than that? And actually, if I say that, I should assume that when I am saying that, he might be interpretting it as "Please stay?" WRONG Huh? This has nothing to do with "interpretation". It has to do with being foolish to assume a total stranger is going to behave like a normal, adjusted human being who respects boundaries and will not impose their will on you. I think anyone who entrusts their safety and well-being to a stranger runs the risk of becoming a statistic in ANY situation.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Huh? This has nothing to do with "interpretation". It has to do with being foolish to assume a total stranger is going to behave like a normal, adjusted human being who respects boundaries and will not impose their will on you. I think anyone who entrusts their safety and well-being to a stranger runs the risk of becoming a statistic in ANY situation. You have made it your own agenda, yes. You are the one who is stating it to be this. I do say it has something to do with interpretation. Everything you say is not the "word." I am allowed to state my views. You are using it as a platform to lecture the OP on her behavior. I am giving my views on how the guy is a rapist. Got it?
J2FT1 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Even if I was as drunk as I have ever been in my life, I would know that "Time to leave" and a guy walking me to the door means "leave." If you (women in general) were that drunk, you would not understand what he was saying (from being too drunk). You would be waking up in his bed the next morning...
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Even if I was as drunk as I have ever been in my life, I would know that "Time to leave" and a guy walking me to the door means "leave." Even if I was drunk as can be I would never steal from someone's home. What is your point? You/I are not everyone. That is my point. Nor should you assume others will think or behave like you, because I can guarantee you they won't. It is your responsibility to be proactive in securing your safety and it is no one's fault but yours if you put yourself in a risky situation assume people DON'T have your best interest in mind, since YOU should have your best interest in mind. You could be walking home from work and get mugged, that is not something you have control over. But walking through a dark alley where you see a gang of hoodlums loitering playing with swiss army knives is probably a less favourable choice in keeping your safety, than walking home on that busy street where all the shops, cars and people are coming and going. In neither instance would you welcome being mugged but common sense tells you that one route is prob safer than the other and though there is no guarantee of either the one choice is still much riskier than that other. Common sense should tell you to never invite a man you don't know back to your home one you have not even spoken to, She saw him for a bit at the begining of the night overheard him on some phone conversation and then hooked up with him on her way home from the bar. She didn't even get a chance to talk to him much during the night. Sorry but this situation was just bad all around from the get-go and if you cannot see that then I pitty and even worry about the situations you might end up in yourself. It's like Jilly said we live in a society that is not civilized nor should you kid yourself into thinking we don't regardless of what you WOULD or WOULD not do if you were in the same situation. Because this is not about you, this is about some man you met randomly at a bar that you don't know from a whole in the wall. Would you allow your child to accept a candy from a strange man? If you can't trust a strange man to feed candy to your child why should trust a strange man to come into your home after knowing him for an hour? Not to mention that women by nature should be the ones looking out for hereself because a man has more physical strength than a woman so techenically he CAN force himself onto a woman more than woman can onto a man so it is a woman's duty to make sure she is safe from harm and assume nothing in her favour when it comes to other people. Calisto this is a non-argument so please stop comparing yourself to what you would do.
Jilly Bean Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Even if I was drunk as can be I would never steal from someone's home. What is your point? You/I are not everyone. That is my point. Nor should you assume others will think or behave like you, because I can guarantee you they won't. It is your responsibility to be proactive in securing your safety and it is no one's fault but yours if you put yourself in a risky situation assume people DON'T have your best interest in mind, since YOU should have your best interest in mind. You could be walking home from work and get mugged, that is not something you have control over. But walking through a dark alley where you see a gang of hoodlums loitering playing with swiss army knives is probably a less favourable choice in keeping your safety, than walking home on that busy street where all the shops, cars and people are coming and going. In neither instance would you welcome being mugged but common sense tells you that one route is prob safer than the other and though there is no guarantee of either the one choice is still much riskier than that other. Common sense should tell you to never invite a man you don't know back to your home one you have not even spoken to, She saw him for a bit at the begining of the night overheard him on some phone conversation and then hooked up with him on her way home from the bar. She didn't even get a chance to talk to him much during the night. Sorry but this situation was just bad all around from the get-go and if you cannot see that then I pitty and even worry about the situations you might end up in yourself. It's like Jilly said we live in a society that is not civilized nor should you kid yourself into thinking we don't regardless of what you WOULD or WOULD not do if you were in the same situation. Because this is not about you, this is about some man you met randomly at a bar that you don't know from a whole in the wall. Would you allow your child to accept a candy from a strange man? If you can't trust a strange man to feed candy to your child why should trust a strange man to come into your home after knowing him for an hour? Not to mention that woman by nature should be the one looking out for hereself because a man has more physical strenght than a woman so techenically he CAN force himself onto a woman more than woman can onto a man so it is a woman's duty to make sure she is safe from harm. Calisto this is a non-argument so please stop comparing yourself to what you would do. TC - fully agree with everything you had to say. Thanks for "getting it".
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 TC - fully agree with everything you had to say. Thanks for "getting it". No problem thanks to you too, I think some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing!?!? I take something like this very seriously and I am overall happy that Cherry managed to get away from this experience relatively unscarred I say relatively since I am sure she is realising now how dodgey that situation was and how risky it was to have this man back in her home especially since he acted quite agressively and it can be really scary. It could have been way worse. But I would also hope that this experience also served as a lesson to make better choices next time around because next time a woman may not be "so lucky" there are alot of twisted people out there and we just don't know who we will encounter.
sid3 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 There should never be a moment when a women has to accept that it is just going to happen, so she allows it to happen. Unless there is a weapon involved and complying means saying your life like JB mentioned. No man has a right to be so aggressive that a woman should feel she has to have sex. This guy is an animal and a disgusting example of a man. Hopefully he won't remember where you live and didn't give you herpes or anything else....hope your ok.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 There should never be a moment when a women has to accept that it is just going to happen, so she allows it to happen. Unless there is a weapon involved and complying means saying your life like JB mentioned. No man has a right to be so aggressive that a woman should feel she has to have sex. This guy is an animal and a disgusting example of a man. Hopefully he won't remember where you live and didn't give you herpes or anything else....hope your ok. Thanks for not making it Jilly Bean's agenda to lecture and then tell everyone else they're wrong for making a different point (which is not her agenda and doesn't give her the fun of lecturing and telling people they're wrong because they are bringing up a different point than she is.)
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 TC - fully agree with everything you had to say. Thanks for "getting it". Yeah, hon, it's not rocket science. It's just that some people had other points to make besides lecturing to the OP.
missdeathwish Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Just a little note based on my reactions to what everyone has been saying... How many women out there say "no" when they mean "yes?" Seriously. I have NEVER in my life done that. Do men really believe that being invited to a woman's home, or making out with a woman, means that that means the women wants to have sex with them? Do people really think that being in a relationship with someone means that it's always okay to have sex with them? The some of the posts on this thread are really scaring me. I don't really think it's not rape if someone has even 1% of the blame. Even if you're doing something that might be unwise (it could be walking one block to your car alone... it could be asking the wrong person to walk you to your car... it could be wearing something low-cut... it could be drinking one too many), it still doesn't make it your fault. Cherry, take care of your physical and emotional health, okay? I'm so so sorry!
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Yeah, hon, it's not rocket science. It's just that some people had other points to make besides lecturing to the OP. What was your point? that you wouldn't do what this guy did? Ok we got that. Still doesn't mean the rest of us were lecturing. The OP asked what we thought of this situation and we levelled with her. I mean back on the first page Jilly asked Cherry what her takeaway was and she wasn't sure what to take away from this!?!? I can't imagine recounting a story like this and having nothing to take away from it in terms of a lesson learned. Maybe that's just me... (!)
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 What was your point? that you wouldn't do what this guy did? Ok we got that. Still doesn't mean the rest of us were lecturing. The OP asked what we thought of this situation and we levelled with her. I mean back on the first page Jilly asked Cherry what her takeaway was and she wasn't sure what to take away from this!?!? I can't imagine recounting a story like this and having nothing to take away from it in terms of a lesson learned. Maybe that's just me... (!) A few of us made points that what the guy did is rape or bordering on rape and how he is wrong and JillyBean made it clear that that was not the point of the thread. SHE was making it her own point of the thread to lecture (don't go home with a guy you don't know, etc.etc. etc.) and we all realize safety, etc. but she is telling us that we weren't "getting it." Getting what? the OP was relaying her experience and JillyBean asked a question about the "takeaway" thing and others of us had points to make about the man's behavior and we are told by her that we are wrong. Wrong? We were just making another point and deciding not to lecture. JillyBean was making it her own agenda and the rest of us who weren't pushing the safety aspect were wrong.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Just a little note based on my reactions to what everyone has been saying... How many women out there say "no" when they mean "yes?" Seriously. I have NEVER in my life done that. Do men really believe that being invited to a woman's home, or making out with a woman, means that that means the women wants to have sex with them? Do people really think that being in a relationship with someone means that it's always okay to have sex with them? The some of the posts on this thread are really scaring me. I don't really think it's not rape if someone has even 1% of the blame. Even if you're doing something that might be unwise (it could be walking one block to your car alone... it could be asking the wrong person to walk you to your car... it could be wearing something low-cut... it could be drinking one too many), it still doesn't make it your fault. Cherry, take care of your physical and emotional health, okay? I'm so so sorry! Oh please women say no all the time and end up meaning yes after the guy pushes a little more. Tell you me you have NEVER EVER told a guy no and he pryed a little more and ok fine the hand slips into boob territory or what have you PLEASE! women do that all the time. Let's not get carried away now by vistimising women in such a way that excempts them from all fault. Yes this guys was more agressive than your average guy but she said herself this: I just have a few "problems" for lack of better word to discribe it with these comments: We had sex. At that point I was like, well, ok then. I wasn't into it though. We went to sleep. I woke up at 3:45 in the morning because I heard a sound. It was him, leaving. I think the only time that happened to me was in college, many years ago. that doesn't sound like someone who was forced to have sex after vehemently meaning NO. That sounds like someone who was on the fence the whole time and went along, with mixed emotions, but went a long nonetheless. then... I am disturbed by the fact that I had sex with him. He was very aggressive, to the point of being scary. I felt like if I really resisted he could probably force me. I did not resist. I just did it. I've done this before, had sex when I didn't really want to, and I don't know why I do this, but it really bothers me. He was stimulating me and I was physically turned on. I want to make it clear that this was not forced sex. Their was no physical force. I just felt sort of swept away by it, but not in the good way. I really would have been happy to see him go without sex or anything. That seems rather contradictory to me, yes he was verbally agressive no he did not physically aggravate her in any way. But she kind of liked it but didn't. C'mon! And then what sealed the feeling of wrongness what that he left in the middle of the night, if he has woken up next to her and they had breakfast together we would not even be discussing this thread because she would not have felt used had he stuck around all night. So was she forced or not then? Excuse me but as a woman I have a real problem with this attitude, you mean to tell me if you wear a super low cut top and naturally men are going to ogle your boobs it is not your fault it is the man's fault for ogleing!?!? Why in the world would you wear a low cut top that practically exposes your nipples if you don't want men looking there? Sorry but you cannot victimise all woman by exempting them from all behaviour and saying that when a woman says no she means no. If she means no she need to also show no. If she shows she is on the fence all it takes is one push to get her to the other side. I think there was some "on the fence" behaviour going on here.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 A few of us made points that what the guy did is rape or bordering on rape and how he is wrong and JillyBean made it clear that that was not the point of the thread. SHE was making it her own point of the thread to lecture (don't go home with a guy you don't know, etc.etc. etc.) and we all realize safety, etc. but she is telling us that we weren't "getting it." Getting what? the OP was relaying her experience and JillyBean asked a question about the "takeaway" thing and others of us had points to make about the man's behavior and we are told by her that we are wrong. Wrong? We were just making another point and deciding not to lecture. JillyBean was making it her own agenda and the rest of us who weren't pushing the safety aspect were wrong. Well I'm sorry but if a woman says this: I am disturbed by the fact that I had sex with him. He was very aggressive, to the point of being scary. I felt like if I really resisted he could probably force me. I did not resist. I just did it. I've done this before, had sex when I didn't really want to, and I don't know why I do this, but it really bothers me. He was stimulating me and I was physically turned on. I want to make it clear that this was not forced sex. Their was no physical force. I just felt sort of swept away by it, but not in the good way. I really would have been happy to see him go without sex or anything I think when someone says this they are in need of a nudge in the right direction, vitimicing her actions and telling her "yes men are creeps and you were raped" is not opening her eyes to the reality of the dangerous situation she got herself in. Some of it felt right to her and my uneducated guess is that it is due to her past experience of being raped so the forceful nature of this situation does create some level of comfort in a deep seated and unconscious way and perhaps it is time she explores that perhaps in therapy?
GPFan Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Hi Cherry Blossom, I, for one, am happy things didn't go any worse than they did. Thank your lucky stars for that! I haven't read every post in this thread but I assume you learned your lesson. The predicament you placed yourself in was dangerous to your safety and well-being but, I suspect, this won't ever happen again. Take care of and be good to yourself.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Well those of us who see the man as being completely aggressive and rapist/borderline have our points to make, also. JillyBean was discounting the points that we had to make and it wasn't her thread to do so. I see it as a lesson to men - when a woman tells you it's time to go and walks you to the door, then don't manipulate and mind**** to get your way, you are a creepy rapist.
tinktronik Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 So walking a guy to the door and saying "It's time for you to leave" could be interpreted differently than that? And actually, if I say that, I should assume that when I am saying that, he might be interpretting it as "Please stay?" WRONG No but if a guy says can I come in your house and your like "emm I don't know." he asks again "well maybe" he asks again "oh okay." Can I have your lamp..."well I don't know , maybe not " again "maybe maybe" again "well okay." Can we have sex "yeah, lets get started" can we now "maybe" please "I think you should leave" ask again" Oh okay" NOT RAPE...Mixed signals . Sounds like a lot of" I don't know" that either mean yes or are leading to a yes.
tinktronik Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I still want to know what aggressive behavior is. Seeing that the OP is a person that has been victimized in the past could mean that aggressive behaviors are quick moves misconstrued through a haze of reliving the prior incident or could mean that he was slamming her through furniture. What does it mean?
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Once inside he was very aggressive. Then we were making out on the couch and he was so aggressive that the couch moved. The connector that plugs in my Macbook was in the wall and the couch had bumped into it, breaking the thing. Well I tried to make it work, and it does still work but it is barely holding together. He did not offer to buy me a new one, of course. I was really pissed. I said, you know, I think it is time for you to go. I'm not attracted anymore. I walked him to the door. He started being very aggressive again. He was very aggressive, to the point of being scary. I felt like if I really resisted he could probably force me. He was very aggressive. There is nothing that the OP said or did that could have been misconstrued, she wanted him the hell out of there and made that clear to him. So he responded by more aggression.
Author Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 He was very aggressive. There is nothing that the OP said or did that could have been misconstrued, she wanted him the hell out of there and made that clear to him. So he responded by more aggression. Thank you, Calisto. I don't know how many times I can say this. He was VERY AGGRESSIVE. If a man pulls his penis out when you turn around to unlock the door, I call that aggressive. When a man lifts up your skirt to "have one last look" at the door, I call that aggressive. When a man PICKS YOU UP and takes you back to your bed, I call that aggressive. I in no way ever said I had no part in this situation. My original point was why I just went with this, rather than FIRMLY kicking him out the door, which as Trial by Fire and a couple of other posters have pointed out, has a lot to do with the earlier rape. And by the way, that person held me against my will for at least 8 hours in a hotel room and took my virginity, so don't tell me I'm not going to have some deep-seated issues with this, even all these years later. Thank you, rapist!
Author Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 23, 2008 Author Posted June 23, 2008 Hey CB, That's pretty scary! I went through a really bad period after my last relationship fell apart. I began drinking a lot and as a result repeatedly put myself in risky situations where I very well could have been raped. I remember going home with a guy after a bar and I got a bad vibe when I got to his place so I took off. I was so drunk and I didn't know where I was, my cell phone was dead and I ended up walking home in the middle of the night and let some stranger give me a ride home. That was my wake up call. I did something similar to what you did last night. I was on vacation in Florida when I was young and my friend met a guy and invited him and his friend to come back to her condo. The friend and I ended up making out- and he too got very aggressive and it ended up with him penetrating me and me being passive about it because I was afraid. I agree that there is something about those of us that put ourselves in risky situations like that. It's a problem that needs an intervention. I hope you are doing okay. Thanks, D-Lish
carhill Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 The immediately preceeding is why I bend every effort to give someone the benefit of the doubt...yikes, so sorry to hear that story CB35
Recommended Posts