Jilly Bean Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I expect that when someone tells you to leave and walks you to the door, this should be enough. IF he were any kind of civilized man, he would have left. Apparently not. TBF, what you are very naively failing to see, is that you are operating from a premise of how people SHOULD behave. Which is often far different from how they DO. I think if you go through life with this attitude of expecting people to conform to your code of conduct, you could also very well end up in the same situation as CB or worse. Which would be most unfortunate. The harsh reality is that this is no longer the 1950's TBF, and you cannot live your life expecting people to always do the right thing, and treat you properly, with respect or however you would desire. We live in a MUCH different world in which saying no doesn't mean that nothing will happen. We ALL have to exercise restraint, common sense, and protect ourselves and never give credit to a stranger that they will respect our boundaries.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Yeah, she said IF. TBF, what you are very naively failing to see, is that you are operating from a premise of how people SHOULD behave. Which is often far different from how they DO. I think if you go through life with this attitude of expecting people to conform to your code of conduct, you could also very well end up in the same situation as CB or worse. Which would be most unfortunate. The harsh reality is that this is no longer the 1950's TBF, and you cannot live your life expecting people to always do the right thing, and treat you properly, with respect or however you would desire. We live in a MUCH different world in which saying no doesn't mean that nothing will happen. We ALL have to exercise restraint, common sense, and protect ourselves and never give credit to a stranger that they will respect our boundaries.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 DUDE! I just looked it up. Mark Twain stated "Action speaks louder than words" NOT THOREAU.
mixwell Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I sort of agree with Tomcat, it seems like you were giving him mixed signals. You were saying "leave" but your actions contradicted that ... sort of like playing hard to get, and we all know the old saying "actions speak louder than words" Did you ever say stop, no, or I don't want to do this when he was sort of forcing himself on you? Totally agree. Unless he was just creepy and wouldn't take no for an answer it seems like you told him to leave but were still affectionate with him. If you really didn't want to have sex with this guy you should've seriously told him to leave but instead you kinda went with it. You should let this be a good lesson and seriously be glad that he just left and you don't have to deal with him again. Hopefully you don't run into him again at the same place
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I hope you used a condom! The pill doesn't protect against STDs and he could very well have anger issues and take out his anger on women who don't know he has herpes/HIV etc. Maybe he is angry because he has herpes, who knows. There are lots of weirdos out there.
MJTig Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I think the OP needs to make up her mind how she wants to behave , decide wether she wants sex or not and learn how to say NO effectively . Use less words , just one NO. I agree. OP does not sound very happy with herself and why she does this, she calls it a "habit" and "i don't know why". It seems as though she lets other decide for her, then regrets it. At any point when he was pushing too far Cherry could have said no with firmness and he should have listened. "I want to stop." If he does not, or thinks he can pressure you. "i said I want to stop, I am not kidding" and follow it up physically. Let them know your line and what will happen if they push. Decide that you want. If you want to do it- great. If you do not- great. But you put the boundaries you want. If either person does not want to continue, it's done. If he did not want to continue, woudl she have pushed him? Cherry, time to figure out why you do this and where you want to go with it. I say this because i sensed the regret and powerlessness you feel.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Laws are heavily biased against men. Just because it is in the law, doesn't make it right. This is part of the reason I hate women. No accountability, it is all the mans fault and responsibility to control things out of his control. Just say 'No sex' next time. And you wonder why we pay for it. Next time just say 'No sex' it is really, really simple. OK, she said "NO" and he continued and you feel he could have misinterpreted this? This makes no sense. Walking him to the door and stating "It is time for you to go" is the same as NO! He is strong enough to pick her up, I'm 100% sure he would have raped her, I consider what he did RAPE because he emotionally ****ed with her after she told him to get the hell out and lead him to the door!
D-Lish Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Hey CB, That's pretty scary! I went through a really bad period after my last relationship fell apart. I began drinking a lot and as a result repeatedly put myself in risky situations where I very well could have been raped. I remember going home with a guy after a bar and I got a bad vibe when I got to his place so I took off. I was so drunk and I didn't know where I was, my cell phone was dead and I ended up walking home in the middle of the night and let some stranger give me a ride home. That was my wake up call. I did something similar to what you did last night. I was on vacation in Florida when I was young and my friend met a guy and invited him and his friend to come back to her condo. The friend and I ended up making out- and he too got very aggressive and it ended up with him penetrating me and me being passive about it because I was afraid. I agree that there is something about those of us that put ourselves in risky situations like that. It's a problem that needs an intervention. I hope you are doing okay.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 OK, she said "NO" and he continued and you feel he could have misinterpreted this? This makes no sense. Walking him to the door and stating "It is time for you to go" is the same as NO! He is strong enough to pick her up, I'm 100% sure he would have raped her, I consider what he did RAPE because he emotionally ****ed with her after she told him to get the hell out and lead him to the door! Yes but getting back on into his arms and allowing him to carry you back into the bedroom and letting him continue to make passes at you on your own bed does not say no, it says "ok if you keep insisiting I might cave". Words are not enough in situations like these and clearly this guy was not one to stop at just words. A woman can say no until the cows come home with her voice but if she is standing there half naked, and entertaining a man's physical passes and in her actions is still engaging with him sexually one way or another that NO message is not strong enough. Your voice should mirror your actions. If you consider this rape you are just seeing what you want to see, Cherry assured us this was not rape so why you are choosing to see otherwise? As a woman we can always be placed in a situation where we kind of don't want something but we kind of do, there is nothing wrong with that we are all human and we have all been there, but you cannot turn around and blame another person for making you do something you ultimately were not conviced 100% you didn't want to do. Men will try, some men are more agressive then others, and some men need a firm clear message and others a simple no will do and they won't try again. But consider there was quite a bit of alcohol consumption, cosnider she had never met this guy before and all he had to do was ask her a few times to go up to her place and she agreed, then this is the first sign that proves to him that all he has to do to get his way is push the matter a bit and she caves. So that is exactly what he did. I am not saying the guy is not a creep, he may very well be, but she just did not show him she was convinced she did not want more in her actions.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 THe way I see it, yes,I still see it as rape and very agressive, scary behavior. You walk a man to a door, you tell him to leave...he should leave with no question....unless he's a rapist. Cherry Blossom, I don't want you to not think he is not at 99% fault here...he is. You are at about 1% fault for letting him in your home after just meeting him and not being more insistent that he leave. He is the one with the issues. Rape issues. I wouldn't be surprised if he raped before.
Trialbyfire Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 TBF, what you are very naively failing to see, is that you are operating from a premise of how people SHOULD behave. Which is often far different from how they DO. I think if you go through life with this attitude of expecting people to conform to your code of conduct, you could also very well end up in the same situation as CB or worse. Which would be most unfortunate. The harsh reality is that this is no longer the 1950's TBF, and you cannot live your life expecting people to always do the right thing, and treat you properly, with respect or however you would desire. We live in a MUCH different world in which saying no doesn't mean that nothing will happen. We ALL have to exercise restraint, common sense, and protect ourselves and never give credit to a stranger that they will respect our boundaries. The one and only time I was almost raped, was one night working late in the office. Beyond that, it's never happened before where "No" doesn't mean "No". Maybe I prefer civilized men? I dunno Jilly, you tell me.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 You walk a man to a door, you tell him to leave...he should leave with no question....unless he's a rapist. Cherry Blossom, I don't want you to not think he is not at 99% fault here...he is. You are at about 1% fault for letting him in your home after just meeting him and not being more insistent that he leave.. Yes he should leave with no question in a perfect world but we don't live in a perfect world so at that point it is your duty to mirror your words with your actions if a man forces himself past your actions then that's considered rape or an invasion of your bieng. There was none of that he pushed she accepted. If you say he is 99% at fault and she has 1% at fault then by your own admission that's not rape . Rape is 100% the forcing of your self onto another human being. There is no split blame. But you are welcome to see it however you want. Let's hope you never get called to do jury duty with that philosophy.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 He is told to leave. He should leave and not push the issue. He is a rapist to some extent. Maybe not to the he should be handcuffed and mugshot, but yes, he definitely is a form of rapist. He manipulated and mindf**ked. He is a poor excuse of a human being and I sure hope that a condom was used.
Jilly Bean Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 The one and only time I was almost raped, was one night working late in the office. Beyond that, it's never happened before where "No" doesn't mean "No". Maybe I prefer civilized men? I dunno Jilly, you tell me. I also told you, but apparently this needs to be repeated. You can't assume strangers are going to behave the way you want them to. You have to exercise some caution and be smart about your own safety. Just because you "prefer civilized men" doesn't mean they will always behave that way. Got it?
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 He is told to leave. He should leave and not push the issue.. But you are victimizing the person that let him into her home. Does she have no say in terms of him coming into her home so because he was persistent this absolves her of her duty to say "No you can't come tonight sorry, maybe some other time:) " ? Do we blame him for her accepting to let him into her home too? Did he force his way into her house or did he walk through the door? He may be a poor excuse of a human being but we can't dismiss that Cherry put herself in an extremely dangerous situation, willingly. And she is not a child and she was not drunk she was just not using her best judgement at the time and gave a man a hand and he took her hole arm, but she still gave him the hand.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I also told you, but apparently this needs to be repeated. You can't assume strangers are going to behave the way you want them to. You have to exercise some caution and be smart about your own safety. Just because you "prefer civilized men" doesn't mean they will always behave that way. Got it? Exactly! I prefer a world without war, and I will never understand why war has to happen, but so much for my personal preference...pfft!
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 If I were at a guy's house, and we were making out, and he got up and said "Look, you have to leave now" and walked me to the door.....no question, I would get OUT of there PRONTO, as he has requested. I would not push the issue and mind f**k and manipulate him into staying and having sex with me that's for darned sure.
Trialbyfire Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I also told you, but apparently this needs to be repeated. You can't assume strangers are going to behave the way you want them to. You have to exercise some caution and be smart about your own safety. Just because you "prefer civilized men" doesn't mean they will always behave that way. Got it? I will reit my entire dating bible of not dating men who I haven't known for years or had the ability to verify through sources, their integrity. I don't do one-night stands or sleep with men on first dates. Do you do as much as I do to ensure for the right kind of man? If not, you're one to talk. Anyways, this isn't what I see as the issue with Cherry. She knew what she did was high-risk behaviour and yet chose to proceed with some very mixed emotions about the entire incident, up to the point where he left. Her emotions didn't synchronize with who she is. I saw it as something more than just a simple situation of risky behaviour. I honestly believe that Cherry has some issues to address, from her first rape. Got it?
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I also told you, but apparently this needs to be repeated. You can't assume strangers are going to behave the way you want them to. You have to exercise some caution and be smart about your own safety. Just because you "prefer civilized men" doesn't mean they will always behave that way. Got it? Well, "got it?" is condescending. Just because she doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that you are right and she is wrong. She understands what you are saying.
Jilly Bean Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I will reit my entire dating bible of not dating men who I haven't known for years or had the ability to verify through sources, their integrity. I don't do one-night stands or sleep with men on first dates. Do you do as much as I do to ensure for the right kind of man? If not, you're one to talk. Anyways, this isn't what I see as the issue with Cherry. She knew what she did was high-risk behaviour and yet chose to proceed with some very mixed emotions about the entire incident, up to the point where he left. Her emotions didn't synchronize with who she is. I saw it as something more than just a simple situation of risky behaviour. I honestly believe that Cherry has some issues to address, from her first rape. Got it? I don't think my dating behavior was the point of this thread, Trial. Nor is yours... What I am arguing is your naivite that "no means no" in all situations and your short-sighted views that people "should" behave in certain ways. We no longer live in a civilized society, and we no longer live in a society in which CB, or any woman, can be in that risky of a scenario with a man and expect him to take the high road and become a gentleman if she changes her mind about the evenings' activities. ALL people, men and women, need to exercise strong judgement and not put themselves in dangerous situations. This time, she was lucky things didn't get MORE out of control. And isn't it a sad commentary that we have to say this even? But we do. So, to counsel someone that "no 'should' mean no" is a lovely and utopian concept, however, it is no longer practically applicable in modern times, particularly in dealing with strangers.
carhill Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 He is told to leave.<snip> He is a poor excuse of a human being and I sure hope that a condom was used. Apparently so.. in response to my inquiry early on.... Carhill: I insisted on condoms. Thank God. Yes, I do feel assaulted in a way. I was very clear that I wanted him to go home and he ignored my request and kept pushing.
Tomcat33 Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 If I were at a guy's house, and we were making out, and he got up and said "Look, you have to leave now" and walked me to the door.....no question, I would get OUT of there PRONTO, as he has requested. I would not push the issue and mind f**k and manipulate him into staying and having sex with me that's for darned sure. I understand most normal human beings would behave like that, as would I but clearly neither you nor I represent how the whole world thinks. So if you can remember that the less problems you will bring into your life. You are also a woman, women can control their urges better. If you are sitting there making out and teasing and half fondeling a man and making out and getting him all hot and heavy and making his testosterone flow it is harder for him to put the kibosh on that when you are ready to call it quits. Women function differently in this respect and by no means am I even remotely insinuating that a man is entitled to force sex on a woman because his juices flow differently but as a general rule of thumb if you don't want to open a can of worms you don't want to deal with just keep the can closed. Men get frustreated when they get teased that doesn't mean they should rape a woman but you can see why a man would try to push a little more and a little more to see how far they can go. It's a challenge for them too, for the normal guy it is a challenge that in turn can be frustrating. For the somewhat twisted guy it is very frustrating and it can push him to do something he might regret. I would never steal something from another human being's house nor would I undertand why someone would want to do that, but guess what if I invite a crack addict into my house their first target may be to pocket the most valuable and easily sold item they can find around my house. I will never understand why they would do that to me considering I invited them into my home and made them feel welcome. But talk to a crack addict and they give a rat's azz about my hospitality they just want their next hit and the money to obtain it. The moral of the story is the guy in question could have been a "crack addict" (metaphorically speaking) and so he acted as a crack addict would. never let someone you don't know, who is also drunk into your house no matter how nice they seem.
Trialbyfire Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 I don't think my dating behavior was the point of this thread, Trial. Nor is yours... What I am arguing is your naivite that "no means no" in all situations and your short-sighted views that people "should" behave in certain ways. We no longer live in a civilized society, and we no longer live in a society in which CB, or any woman, can be in that risky of a scenario with a man and expect him to take the high road and become a gentleman if she changes her mind about the evenings' activities. ALL people, men and women, need to exercise strong judgement and not put themselves in dangerous situations. This time, she was lucky things didn't get MORE out of control. And isn't it a sad commentary that we have to say this even? But we do. So, to counsel someone that "no 'should' mean no" is a lovely and utopian concept, however, it is no longer practically applicable in modern times, particularly in dealing with strangers. You continue to miss my point entirely. Whatever Jilly Bean. I'm done. Cherry, my apologies for my portion of the derail. You know where I'm coming from. Good luck with working on it.
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 So, to counsel someone that "no 'should' mean no" is a lovely and utopian concept, however, it is no longer practically applicable in modern times, particularly in dealing with strangers. So walking a guy to the door and saying "It's time for you to leave" could be interpreted differently than that? And actually, if I say that, I should assume that when I am saying that, he might be interpretting it as "Please stay?" WRONG
Calisto Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Even if I was as drunk as I have ever been in my life, I would know that "Time to leave" and a guy walking me to the door means "leave." I understand most normal human beings would behave like that, as would I but clearly neither you nor I represent how the whole world thinks. So if you can remember that the less problems you will bring into your life. You are also a woman, women can control their urges better. If you are sitting there making out and teasing and half fondeling a man and making out and getting him all hot and heavy and making his testosterone flow it is harder for him to put the kibosh on that when you are ready to call it quits. Women function differently in this respect and by no means am I even remotely insinuating that a man is entitled to force sex on a woman because his juices flow differently but as a general rule of thumb if you don't want to open a can of worms you don't want to deal with just keep the can closed. Men get frustreated when they get teased that doesn't mean they should rape a woman but you can see why a man would try to push a little more and a little more to see how far they can go. It's a challenge for them too, for the normal guy it is a challenge that in turn can be frustrating. For the somewhat twisted guy it is very frustrating and it can push him to do something he might regret. I would never steal something from another human being's house nor would I undertand why someone would want to do that, but guess what if I invite a crack addict into my house their first target may be to pocket the most valuable and easily sold item they can find around my house. I will never understand why they would do that to me considering I invited them into my home and made them feel welcome. But talk to a crack addict and they give a rat's azz about my hospitality they just want their next hit and the money to obtain it. The moral of the story is the guy in question could have been a "crack addict" (metaphorically speaking) and so he acted as a crack addict would. never let someone you don't know, who is also drunk into your house no matter how nice they seem.
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