Trialbyfire Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Yes there are and we have not heard his. Men cannot be held responsible for women's sexual emotions. She needs to learn from this (if it hurt her) and be more responsible with herself next time. Men don't understand your emotions and we can't control them so we're not responsible. The law views No, as meaning No, at any given time. Men are responsible for themselves and their own actions/self-control. Don't try to justify bad behaviours based on gender.
Jilly Bean Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Cherry, I didn't say it earlier, so before I head out for the day, just want to let you know I am really relieved you are OK physically and that you weren't hurt. Things could have easily gone the other way... I am sure you are reeling with a lot of emotions today. I know I would be! Just try not to beat yourself up TOO much. We all make foolish choices. It's only if you don't learn from them and continue to repeat the mistakes that it becomes truly problematic. As mentioned earlier, take the time to learn how this came about, what your role was, what his was, how your expectations differed from the reality, etc. Lots to learn from here, so please don't bury this and move on. THAT would be the real tragedy here. Take care, JB
tinktronik Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 The law views No, as meaning No, at any given time. Men are responsible for themselves and their own actions/self-control. Don't try to justify bad behaviours based on gender. Men cannot read women's minds especially when they are unknown putting out more go signals than no signals. I did not see in the OP's post where she stated NO clearly. The OP clearly needs some boundary help. You can't claim every guy you take home drunk and kind of decided to have sex with, but kinda not too is a rapist.
Trialbyfire Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 So the guy asks if he can walk me home. I said yes, but that's it. I don't want him coming up. He said ok. Once we got to the front door, he started in with this stuff about me being so pretty, and he just wants to kiss me on my couch, can he come up? I said, but don't you have a gf? He responded, no, we went out for two months and now we are just friends. I was really pissed. I said, you know, I think it is time for you to go. I'm not attracted anymore. I walked him to the door. He started being very aggressive again. At this point I'm feeling physically turned on, but mentally I wanted him out of there. The next thing I know he picked me up and took me back to my bed. Men cannot read women's minds especially when they are unknown putting out more go signals than no signals. I did not see in the OP's post where she stated NO clearly. The OP clearly needs some boundary help. You can't claim every guy you take home drunk and kind of decided to have sex with, but kinda not too is a rapist. It seems that she was clear. Read up on the link provided for PTSD. It also includes information about how rape can cause inappropriate sexual behaviours and freezing, when a similar situation happens.
Stockalone Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 There are supposed to be clear cut rules to stop things like this from happening. Don't let guys walk you home or don't let them come up after being at a bar at night. These are sexual boy girl things a woman should avoid if she doesn't want sex. Just because she takes him home doesn't mean that she can't change her mind. A woman can say stop/no at any time. She told him to leave, that means she didn't want it to go any further. The same goes for a guy. If he wants nothing more than make-out on the couch, he can tell her "sorry, I don't want to take this further" and then go home. Well, I think if a woman is feeling physically endangered, then sometimes it is in her best interest to detach as much as possible from the physical situation in order to survive. I think in that moment she was feeling unsafe, and felt this was her best defense. I get that, I truly do. I never thought about it that way. When I think about a possible rape scenario, I think of my sister walking to her car in a dark parking lot and a sick pervert waiting behind a tree. There, the situation is very clear. The way things went down for CB35 is different, far more subtle. Obviously the guy should have left after she asked him to leave. I was just wondering if he had stopped had she said no again to his advances after that. Maybe he would have gotten the point. It's hard to say what that guy would have done. If I would be told to leave, I would. When a gf wasn't in the mood and told me "no/stop", I didn't push her buttons to try and change her mind. Maybe that guy didn't get the point and thought she was "playfully" telling him to leave but didn't mean it. Maybe another firm "No!" would have made him stop. But CB35 didn't feel safe and thought that another no would only enrage the guy. It's a difficult decision. I taught my sister how to attack vital points on a man's body with devastating effect. Whether or not she would try to fight back in a possible rape situation would still be up to her and her assessment of that situation. So I can understand CB35 and why she chose to "comply" and choosing the lesser of two evils from her point of view.
tinktronik Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I don't find the things the OP said to be clear at all "I think" is not a clear or firm statement "You need to leave" or "It is time for you to leave".I would find it to be different if so many girls did not waffle at the point of sex with men as a means to appear virtuous when they know they will be having sex with this man. How are men ever to get a clear signal? he only one is a firm NO. I never read that the OP said NO at all. In fact what is "aggressive" in this instance ? I think the poster that said the OP is freezing or behaving in shock as to a previous rape is correct, but you cannot expect a guy that she brought home directly after meeting her to know , understand or base his behaviors on something he knows nothing about.
MaxManwell Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 The law views No, as meaning No, at any given time. Men are responsible for themselves and their own actions/self-control. Don't try to justify bad behaviours based on gender. Laws are heavily biased against men. Just because it is in the law, doesn't make it right. This is part of the reason I hate women. No accountability, it is all the mans fault and responsibility to control things out of his control. Just say 'No sex' next time. And you wonder why we pay for it. Next time just say 'No sex' it is really, really simple.
Trialbyfire Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I don't find the things the OP said to be clear at all "I think" is not a clear or firm statement "You need to leave" or "It is time for you to leave".I would find it to be different if so many girls did not waffle at the point of sex with men as a means to appear virtuous when they know they will be having sex with this man. How are men ever to get a clear signal? he only one is a firm NO. I never read that the OP said NO at all. In fact what is "aggressive" in this instance ? I think the poster that said the OP is freezing or behaving in shock as to a previous rape is correct, but you cannot expect a guy that she brought home directly after meeting her to know , understand or base his behaviors on something he knows nothing about. I expect that when someone tells you to leave and walks you to the door, this should be enough. IF he were any kind of civilized man, he would have left. Apparently not. No doubt there were turning points to the entire situation.
carhill Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I would find it to be different if so many girls did not waffle at the point of sex with men as a means to appear virtuous when they know they will be having sex with this man. How are men ever to get a clear signal? Color my experiences odd but I've never been confused about a woman's sexual signals and have never experienced anything like the OP. Is "virtue" really a factor anymore? Perhaps this is a philosophical difference, where some people view sex as a recreational activity and others view it as an expression of intimacy. From the OP's description, she felt more of a need for being desired and comforted than she did for sex. The issue was how that was communicated and received and the psycho-sexual makeup of the man in question. A common complaint from my wife and female friends has been that men can't be affectionate without it becoming sexual. Having been a virgin for years, I learned how to separate the two and derive satisfaction from both. I found the reverse of the OP's situation to be frustrating, in that women thought physical affection by me was going to lead to sex (because of their experiences with other men), so I was often denied intimacy which I valued and such often led to my resenting the women. My problem was I couldn't (or didn't know how to) effectively communicate my needs and desires properly. Sounds a lot like the OP, eh
Trialbyfire Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Right then, princess. Rape laws are put in place for men who have self-entitlement issues. Anyways, Cherry, have you considered therapy? It might help you work through your distress about this incident and possibly, about the first incident that might have caused your reactions to this situation.
tinktronik Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 From the OP's description, she felt more of a need for being desired and comforted than she did for sex. The issue was how that was communicated and received and the psycho-sexual makeup of the man in question. A common complaint from my wife and female friends has been that men can't be affectionate without it becoming sexual. Having been a virgin for years, I learned how to separate the two and derive satisfaction from both. I found the reverse of the OP's situation to be frustrating, in that women thought physical affection by me was going to lead to sex (because of their experiences with other men), so I was often denied intimacy which I valued and such often led to my resenting the women. My problem was I couldn't (or didn't know how to) effectively communicate my needs and desires properly. Sounds a lot like the OP, eh I agree with this statement, it sounds as though the OP should work on her interior issues. We here are privy to the OP's interior thought and feelings ."Guy" was not ,only to her exterior that was not saying NO but instead showing outward signs of arousal, the signs that she was not interested were overwhelmingly unspoken but instead thought .
carhill Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Great example: We're kissing and caressing each other and my wife feels my penis become erect. Do I want sex? Does my sexual arousal mean we have to have sex? IMO, no. It merely means my body is reacting to the stimulation. In my case, the big head is still running the show Does my wife instinctively know this? NO. I need to communicate it. Do I have a right to sex just because I'm married and aroused? NO Replace "my wife" with "a woman"...... should there really be any difference? Can a woman become sexually aroused and still not desire to have sex? Of course. Can she desire physical intimacy and not have genital/genital and/or oral/genital contact? Of course. Should she expect a man to understand this instinctively? NO. It needs to be communicated. Set the boundary.
tinktronik Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Great example: We're kissing and caressing each other and my wife feels my penis become erect. Do I want sex? Does my sexual arousal mean we have to have sex? IMO, no. It merely means my body is reacting to the stimulation. In my case, the big head is still running the show Does my wife instinctively know this? NO. I need to communicate it. Do I have a right to sex just because I'm married and aroused? NO Replace "my wife" with "a woman"...... should there really be any difference? Can a woman become sexually aroused and still not desire to have sex? Of course. Can she desire physical intimacy and not have genital/genital and/or oral/genital contact? Of course. Should she expect a man to understand this instinctively? NO. It needs to be communicated. Set the boundary. Well said, my point exactly.
Author Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 22, 2008 Author Posted June 22, 2008 I don't know how to do the multiple quotes in one reply, so here goes. First of all, I really appreciate the fact that all of you have taken the time to read my post and thoughtfully respond. Your input is valuable to me. TrialbyFire, Carhill, and JillyBean: Thank you for your concern about my safety. Again, much appreciated. I will try to respond to the different responses on here because I read each one and gave them some thought. JillyBean: I have been thinking about what I can take away from this. First of all, I will not allow strange men to walk me home. Period. I will leave with my friends. If the guy is actually interested in me then he can get my number and follow through in the normal way. Carhill: I insisted on condoms. Thank God. Yes, I do feel assaulted in a way. I was very clear that I wanted him to go home and he ignored my request and kept pushing. Trial by Fire: A special thanks for the link to the article and for standing up for me. I did not get therapy at the time of the rape. I wanted to pretend it didn't happen so I stuffed it down. Years later, I went to therapy because I was stressed about not having a job. I went in there and broke down crying at the first appointment about the incident. I was shocked that I did this, because I went there to discuss my fears about being jobless. I think I wtill struggle with this in a level that is very deep down inside me. It happened in 1992, so I think I "should" be over it. I think on the surface I am, but I also think it affected my development as an adult. General reply: I was very clear that I wanted him to go. There was no ambiguity there. I was standing by the door telling him to leave. After he started in again, it's like another person came over me. This happens to me sometimes. Not a split personality, LOL, but a different persona. I suddenly change into this other person. I don't know how to explain that.
carhill Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Thanks for your response, CB35; as a guy, I want to protect and "fix" things, so I have to catch myself. Hope you stay engaged here, even with the diversity of opinion. You are the sum of your realities and your pasts. This is where that "other person" comes from. Try not to fear that person, rather learn from her. She is you. I'm now aligned with TBF (and perhaps others) that therapy would be a benefit. Your revelation of your last therapy experience underscores this. Glad you were (and are) safe (regarding the sexual part)
Author Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 22, 2008 Author Posted June 22, 2008 Thanks for your response, CB35; as a guy, I want to protect and "fix" things, so I have to catch myself. Hope you stay engaged here, even with the diversity of opinion. You are the sum of your realities and your pasts. This is where that "other person" comes from. Try not to fear that person, rather learn from her. She is you. I'm now aligned with TBF (and perhaps others) that therapy would be a benefit. Your revelation of your last therapy experience underscores this. Glad you were (and are) safe (regarding the sexual part) Going to brunch, but will be checking this later. I will remain engaged Yes, therapy would probably be beneficial. I function well in my daily world, so usually I think I'm fine. Then something comes up, and I'm like, hmmm....maybe not.
Trialbyfire Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 You're welcome Cherry. Your actions within your post conflicted with what I've seen of your personality on LS. When things don't add up, it always makes me wonder if there's a historical trigger.
J2FT1 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Well the fact that the OP titles this thread, "OMG, he left in the middle of the night" might mean she was more concerned about him making her feel "dirty" (by leaving early) than him being agressive and finally having sex with her. And so maybe she is using the "him being agressive" card to make it seem like it's all his fault that this occured.
Author Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 22, 2008 Author Posted June 22, 2008 Well the fact that the OP titles this thread, "OMG, he left in the middle of the night" might mean she was more concerned about him making her feel "dirty" (by leaving early) than him being agressive and finally having sex with her. And so maybe she is using the "him being agressive" card to make it seem like it's all his fault that this occured. I don't feel dirty about sex with two consenting adults. He was very aggressive and it got to the point where I was like, well, I guess this is just going to happen. I also did not say it was "all his fault". I think I was pretty clear in stating that I wanted to know why I was having trouble being just as aggressive back in getting him out of there. He knew exactly what he was doing. A decent, respectful guy would have left after they broke the charger and I said please leave now. I know the difference. He even said he "took what he wanted". This was a man determined to get his way. By the way, even with my history, I've also had loving, respectful men in my life and good relationships. I'm not a man hater.
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Take this as a lesson - no more one night stands with guys you just met that night. Live and learn.
Author Cherry Blossom 35 Posted June 22, 2008 Author Posted June 22, 2008 Take this as a lesson - no more one night stands with guys you just met that night. Live and learn. Absolutely.
Tomcat33 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 IHe knew exactly what he was doing. A decent, respectful guy would have left after they broke the charger and I said please leave now. I know the difference. Been following your thread Cherry and I have to say that yes a man who knows how to take no for an answer does not behave as this guy did, I have met a few guys like this myself who are more agressive than usual however a woman that says no and means no would have said to him firmly when he picked you up at the door "put me down, I am serious I would like you to go now. please leave" and I would have looked at him point blank and meant it. No more mucking about. I just don't think you were firm with him and I don't doubt he was agressive he clearly was but you were not convinced of your actions and it showed in your delivery and acted on this. I hope to god you will not allow something like this ever again. Treat your home like an extension of your body, never let anyone into your palace that has not proven to be trustworthy or simply worthy, that attitude will always ensure you are never put in a situation like this again. I had knots in my stomach reading this.
Sagan Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I sort of agree with Tomcat, it seems like you were giving him mixed signals. You were saying "leave" but your actions contradicted that ... sort of like playing hard to get, and we all know the old saying "actions speak louder than words" Did you ever say stop, no, or I don't want to do this when he was sort of forcing himself on you?
J2FT1 Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 I sort of agree with Tomcat, it seems like you were giving him mixed signals. You were saying "leave" but your actions contradicted that ... sort of like playing hard to get, and we all know the old saying "actions speak louder than words" Did you ever say stop, no, or I don't want to do this when he was sort of forcing himself on you? Your quote was said by Thoreau? Why not give him credits?
Calisto Posted June 22, 2008 Posted June 22, 2008 Your quote was said by Thoreau? Why not give him credits? Maybe he didn't know who originally stated it. No biggie.
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