Stupid Crazy S!ht: Another Update

[spookie]

TT and I could not tear ourselves away from the keg downstairs on Thursday night. I don't know how many pitchers we knocked back between the two of us, but it was enough for me to spend the evening slumped over a toilet seat, barfing.

 

I was still fcvked up when we woke up for work the next morning. So fcvked up, in fact, that the first thing I did when I stumbled into the office at 7 AM was run to the bathroom to throw up some more.

 

I have a drinking problem, obviously.

 

But, that evening we went out with my supervisor and a couple of people from other departments, and I realized I'm not alone.

 

My boss had at least 8 beers over dinner. TT was not far behind. B literally threw back 14 red bull vodkas before we even got to the bar. We spent the next several hours socializing and playing pool as everyone got wasted. Eventually my boss began telling us inappropriate stories about other coworkers, as well as a few kinky ones about his wife, hen he dropped the bomb about the fact that he is looking to leave.

 

TT likes my boss a lot, so he did not take this well at all. He got really upset and went on and on about how much he hated his job, and how working alongside __ was the only thing that made it bearable.

 

It was totally inappropriate, not the right thing to say to a superior when you're an intern at all.

 

When my boss left, L and B went off on TT for being an idiot. TT got PISSED. To calm him down, I suggested the two of us go out to the patio to make out, but he said he was uncomfortable with so many people around. I pointed out that after the day we showed up to work with matching hickies, our R was pretty much out of the bag, but he refused. "Now you're going to be pissed at me, aren't you," he said, and stormed away.

 

At first I thought he had just gone to the bar for more drinks, but as the night wore on, and people were getting ready to leave, I realized he wasn't there. We called his phone, and he told us he was walking home cause we were a bunch of ashsoles. We were worried, since the bar is 8 miles away from our hotel and we all had work the next morning, but B. said TT getting belligerently drunk and walking off by himself was a pretty regular occurance back at school.

 

When we didn't see him walking alongside the highway on our way home, we tried calling him a bunch more times, but he'd either not pick up at all or pick up to tell us to fcvk off.

 

I realized then why he's never gotten laid: he's shy when he's sober and an ashshole when he's drunk. B agreed with me, going on to say that it was odd that TT was hooking up with me at all, since in the four years he's known him, he's never so much as had a crush on a girl, never mind a relationship.

 

He made it back ok somehow, and the next day, I drove him to the airport. We had a good time talking as we drove, but I felt kind of funny when he made no attempt whatsoever to hug or kiss me; especially after having been basically rejected the night before, and seeing that other side of him, and knowing he was on his way to visit two female friends and sleep in a sorority house.

 

He texted me all weekend, though. Nice things, like "wish you were here", and "I'm excited to see you tomorrow."

 

I guess I just see some red flags, and I am wondering how to proceed.

[johan]

There are several stories on here of situations where the person was a Jeckyll and Hyde type of drinker. And when the person is a heavy drinker you see more Jeckyll than you really want to. Those relationships don't work out.

 

I suggest you proceed cautiously, and keep your feelings for this guy under control until you figure out whether you can really trust him.

 

I also suggest that you (and he) lay off the alcohol. You rely on that too much.

[Stockalone]

I am sorry to hear that things aren't going so well.

 

I was still fcvked up when we woke up for work the next morning. So fcvked up, in fact, that the first thing I did when I stumbled into the office at 7 AM was run to the bathroom to throw up some more.

 

I have a drinking problem, obviously.

 

Well, then do something about it.

 

 

TT likes my boss a lot, so he did not take this well at all. He got really upset and went on and on about how much he hated his job, and how working alongside __ was the only thing that made it bearable.

 

It was totally inappropriate, not the right thing to say to a superior when you're an intern at all.

 

When my boss left, L and B went off on TT for being an idiot. TT got PISSED.

 

Does he easily get pissed even when sober or is that only when he id drunk?

 

 

To calm him down, I suggested the two of us go out to the patio to make out, but he said he was uncomfortable with so many people around. I pointed out that after the day we showed up to work with matching hickies, our R was pretty much out of the bag, but he refused. "Now you're going to be pissed at me, aren't you," he said, and stormed away.

 

...

 

but B. said TT getting belligerently drunk and walking off by himself was a pretty regular occurance back at school.

 

 

Not everybody is comfortable with showing affection in public, let alone make out.

 

Him running off is another sign of his immaturity. But to be honest, I haven't seen many people who behave even the slightest bit mature when they are really drunk.

 

 

When we didn't see him walking alongside the highway on our way home, we tried calling him a bunch more times, but he'd either not pick up at all or pick up to tell us to fcvk off.

 

I realized then why he's never gotten laid: he's shy when he's sober and an ashshole when he's drunk. B agreed with me, going on to say that it was odd that TT was hooking up with me at all, since in the four years he's known him, he's never so much as had a crush on a girl, never mind a relationship.

 

Given that I have never been drunk, I don't know how much alcohol influences people actions. But having had friends and family doing the same things TT does, it always seemed that those people were unhappy with their lives and that alcohol didn't create that side but merely brought out that side that gets easily pissed, storms off in the face of confrontation, everything they do is right and people just don't want understand them, etc..

 

It's absolutely possible that I have no clue what I am talking about, but something about TT doesn't sit right with me. Being an a-hole when he is drunk is certainly something to be conderned about. But I wonder why he is such an a-hole when drunk.

 

Do you think the alcohol makes him an a-hole or do you think that there are deeper issues that cause him to drink and then show up once he is drunk?

 

 

He made it back ok somehow, and the next day, I drove him to the airport. We had a good time talking as we drove, but I felt kind of funny when he made no attempt whatsoever to hug or kiss me; especially after having been basically rejected the night before, and seeing that other side of him, and knowing he was on his way to visit two female friends and sleep in a sorority house.

 

No hug and no kiss is odd. I can think of two scenarios.

 

1. He was ashamed of what he had done the last night. But he couldn't bring himself to say "Spookie, I am sorry for how I reacted". Which he should have.

 

Did he say anything about why he had that little tandrum last night. Leaving you alone without saying good-bye last night. An apology, an explanation?

 

He could have been too embarrassed to hug and kiss you at the airport. I guess he wanted to see how you reacted after last night. Did you make an attempt to hug and kiss at the airport?

 

 

2. He is still pissed off that guys critized him and was to angry to hug and kiss.

 

 

I think that scenario 1.) is more likely, considering that he kept texting you all weekend.

 

 

He texted me all weekend, though. Nice things, like "wish you were here", and "I'm excited to see you tomorrow."

 

I guess I just see some red flags, and I am wondering how to proceed.

 

I agree that you have reason to be concerned.

 

I would ask him if he is aware how he behaves when he is drunk. Then I would ask him how that makes him feel.

 

Ask him why he left without a word and I would also tell him how that made you feel. That you were worried when you didn't know where he was.

 

Tell him that you believe he is a good guy but that he completely changes into an a-hole when he is drunk.

 

The problem with all this is that he might show the same evasiveness when confronted directly as he did last night when he was drunk. That would not be good.

[sb129]

Wow Spookie.

 

What a way to kick start your working life.

 

I know that some jobs involve drinking and socialising with your workmates- in many workplaces it is expected and necessary to progress up the career ladder.

 

Personally, I am very glad I am not in that kind of job. Work is work and play is something completely different.

I have had my fair share of train wrecks in my personal life, but thankfully the line between work and play has never been blurred and my career has never been affected as a result. I make a point of not getting wasted with co-workers, nor do I befriend them on Facebook etc etc.

 

My private life is exactly that- private. I don't want my professionalism compromised by that. I don't want to have to discipline someone and then have them not take me seriously because they saw me doing tequila slammers and telling them all my sex secrets on the previous saturday night out.

 

All I am going to say is

your job obviously isn't like mine BUT

 

at this critical stage in what is a fledgling career

BE CAREFUL when you decide to mix booze and work.

[shadowplay]

Hmm. Yeah, I would be cautious.

 

TT is an alcoholic, no doubt about it. But given your own alcohol problems maybe you're more willing to put up with it. I don't like the fact that you guys often get drunk together, enabling each other's addictions. It's depressing when people bond over something self-destructive. Better to leave that crap out of the relationship and keep your time together somewhat pure. When two people share an addiction, they can be twice as self destructive.

 

I would make a promise to yourself that from now on you'll keep drinking out of your relationship. You can drink on your own, but try to avoid it when you're together as it will just fvvck things up between you two -- I guarantee you. Perhaps this an idea out of left field, but have you thought of going to AA meetings together?

 

Just aside from the whole relationship topic, I'm concerned about your well-being. You really need to face this addiction, Spookie. It could destroy you if you don't address it soon. How long have you been abusing alcohol? Did it start when you were dating your ex or after? Do your parents drink a lot?

 

Based on your descriptions, I'm not quite sure what to make of TT. He seems to have a lot of emotional hang ups. Something is cracked or scarred within him. Are his parents divorced, is one of them an alcoholic, was he verbally or physically abused? Something went very wrong in his childhood, I'm sure of it. How much has he opened up to you about this stuff?

 

You may not see it now, but I suspect he's emotionally closed off. The fact that he's been so reluctant to get into a relationship before suggests it. You're just now getting to know him, but this could become more of an issue as your relationship develops. I don't think he's a virgin because of his shyness but because of his fear of intimacy. Any attractive guy can get sex if he really wants it. Maybe his shyness is a subconscious defence mechanism that protects him from getting too close.

 

So just be aware going in that he's 1) very emotionally underveloped and immature, 2) predisposed to alcholism, 3) may have emotional baggage and problems with intimacy.

 

The good news is he can change because he's young and inexperienced. You can be the catalyst for his emotional development, but you'll have to put in a lot to break down his walls. I've been in three relationships with emotionally scarred, inexperienced guys and in all three cases I was able to open them up and change them for the better through sheer persistence (they even thanked me). But it took a lot of pushing to finally get there. Had I met them later in life, I'm sure my efforts would have been futile. Also, they didn't have addictions like TT does.

 

At this point in my life, I wouldn't take on another "project" boyfriend. It was unhealthy for me to want to change another person. I think I was trying to prove to myself that I could win over unavailable guys because my dad was unavailable.

 

I'm not sure this guy is right for you unless you don't mind the extra work.

[spookie]

 

Does he easily get pissed even when sober or is that only when he id drunk?

 

It's absolutely possible that I have no clue what I am talking about, but something about TT doesn't sit right with me. Being an a-hole when he is drunk is certainly something to be conderned about. But I wonder why he is such an a-hole when drunk.

 

Do you think the alcohol makes him an a-hole or do you think that there are deeper issues that cause him to drink and then show up once he is drunk?

 

 

I'm 100% sure there are deeper issues.

 

He's shy, but obviously craves the company and acceptance of others. If I have the right read on him, that drives him to conform - instead of using his obvious intelligence to form his own opinions on anything, he just goes with the flow, hoping to offend no one.

 

I don't find this particularly respectable, but I've dated sociopathic ashsoles with big strong ideas about everything, and I know I'd rather be with someone who valued people over thoughts. TT's this way.

 

Anyway, so he's a shy, non-confrontational conformist. The shyness and desire to be liked drive him to drink. When he drinks, the schism between what he thinks and what he's pretending to think is wide and apparent, and his inhibitions go out the window, and that's what brings out the belligerence, if I am right. He finally has the courage to make the socially wrong decision to be himself; and the first thing he does about that is go about setting everyone right: his friends are ashsholes, he hates his job.

 

I COULD be wrong. But that's what I think.

 

 

 

 

 

No hug and no kiss is odd. I can think of two scenarios.

 

1. He was ashamed of what he had done the last night. But he couldn't bring himself to say "Spookie, I am sorry for how I reacted". Which he should have.

 

Did he say anything about why he had that little tandrum last night. Leaving you alone without saying good-bye last night. An apology, an explanation?

 

He could have been too embarrassed to hug and kiss you at the airport. I guess he wanted to see how you reacted after last night. Did you make an attempt to hug and kiss at the airport?

 

 

2. He is still pissed off that guys critized him and was to angry to hug and kiss.

 

 

I think that scenario 1.) is more likely, considering that he kept texting you all weekend.

 

Actually, I guess I was sort of unclear. He made no attempt to hug or kiss me on the 2 hour drive there, but once we were at the airport, before he walked away he did do that. I suppose that means I have absolutely nothing to complain about - I was just baffled as to why he didn't want to touch me, when we were together and alone.

 

Like I said, the chemistry is strong. He's like a magnet to me. All I want to do is touch when we're together.

 

 

 

I agree that you have reason to be concerned.

 

I would ask him if he is aware how he behaves when he is drunk. Then I would ask him how that makes him feel.

 

Ask him why he left without a word and I would also tell him how that made you feel. That you were worried when you didn't know where he was.

 

Tell him that you believe he is a good guy but that he completely changes into an a-hole when he is drunk.

 

The problem with all this is that he might show the same evasiveness when confronted directly as he did last night when he was drunk. That would not be good.

 

 

It's hard for me to bring up his drinking as a serious issue without sounding like a hypocrite when I have all the same problems. That said, on the drive to the airport I did ask him if it ever made him feel uncomfortable. He said sometimes, like when back in college, he'd get pissed off at parties and walk 10 miles home through snow, amazed in the morning that he didn't freeze to death in a field somewhere.

 

I asked if he thought we were alcoholics. We both come from extended families full of alcoholics and immediate families where drinking and drugs are completely not ok, so, IMO, we definitely have the right predispositions. He said one sign is drinking more than one intends, and that, since he always intends to blackout, he's in the clear. (He LIKES blacking out, and I've seen him drink to nausea, vomit, and then continue to drink.) He also said that since this kind of behavior is fairly acceptable in college and for a couple of years after, he wasn't worried about it just yet.

 

 

I guess it should worry me, getting involved with someone like that. Everyone says you cannot change someone, and I know that already I'm looking forward to bringing out a sober, independent-thinking TT. I know he's in there. He's even showed himself a couple of times, and it's the guy I like. I really think all he needs is the assurance of acceptance.

 

Wow Spookie.

 

What a way to kick start your working life.

 

I know that some jobs involve drinking and socialising with your workmates- in many workplaces it is expected and necessary to progress up the career ladder.

 

Personally, I am very glad I am not in that kind of job. Work is work and play is something completely different.

I have had my fair share of train wrecks in my personal life, but thankfully the line between work and play has never been blurred and my career has never been affected as a result. I make a point of not getting wasted with co-workers, nor do I befriend them on Facebook etc etc.

 

My private life is exactly that- private. I don't want my professionalism compromised by that. I don't want to have to discipline someone and then have them not take me seriously because they saw me doing tequila slammers and telling them all my sex secrets on the previous saturday night out.

 

All I am going to say is

your job obviously isn't like mine BUT

 

at this critical stage in what is a fledgling career

BE CAREFUL when you decide to mix booze and work.

 

I know I've already made some stupid decisions re: alcohol at the workplace. It's not completely frowned upon around here, but to the extent that we abuse it, it probably is.

 

The problem is that it's hard to set boundaries when your supervisor is crossing them constantly and encouraging you to do the same; and when you're really good friends with co-workers who have no concept of the idea whatsoever.

 

I need to try harder, however. Showing up to work wasted is not ok, nor is it ok to be so tired and hungover that you need 5 red bulls to stay awake.

[spookie]

Hmm. Yeah, I would be cautious.

 

TT is an alcoholic, no doubt about it. But given your own alcohol problems maybe you're more willing to put up with it. I don't like the fact that you guys often get drunk together, enabling each other's addictions. It's depressing when people bond over something self-destructive. Better to leave that crap out of the relationship and keep your time together somewhat pure. When two people share an addiction, they can be twice as self destructive.

 

I would make a promise to yourself that from now on you'll keep drinking out of your relationship. You can drink on your own, but try to avoid it when you're together as it will just fvvck things up between you two -- I guarantee you. Perhaps this an idea out of left field, but have you thought of going to AA meetings together?

 

We do get drunk together a lot, but it's only with other people. Of course, the other people are usually done after 3 beers while he and I continue till one of us vomits or passes out, but, still - when it's just the two of us, we've always been sober.

 

TBH, I think it's my fault that we drink as much as we do. The night we chugged beer for three hours at the keg, for example, was entirely at my insistence. He was actually kind of pissed at me about that later, and told me he preferred it when I didn't drink.

 

I do think that he, like me, wants a relationship with someone he feels comfortable and happy being around sober. That's why I'm not too worried about what all this drinking means, re: whether we're even compatible. I think we are, I just think we're both neurotic alcoholics. That's not our bond, though, it's just something we have in common.

 

 

 

Just aside from the whole relationship topic, I'm concerned about your well-being. You really need to face this addiction, Spookie. It could destroy you if you don't address it soon. How long have you been abusing alcohol? Did it start when you were dating your ex or after? Do your parents drink a lot?

 

Surprisingly, I have only been drinking for about a year. My ex hated alcohol, and I met him when I was 18 and had never drunk at all, so I spent the first three years of college drinking maybe every 6 months (and hating it). We did start smoking a lot of weed together though, in the last year of our relationship.

 

After we broke up I was forced to make friends, and that's how I got into alcohol. I drank socially, at first; and then to cope, and then for fun, and then for work when I was stripping, and now, I don't know. Now I drink mostly beer, which seems harmless and nonalcoholic when you have 1 or 3, but when it's 20 or 30, it fcvks you up.

 

 

Based on your descriptions, I'm not quite sure what to make of TT. He seems to have a lot of emotional hang ups. Something is cracked or scarred within him. Are his parents divorced, is one of them an alcoholic, was he verbally or physically abused? Something went very wrong in his childhood, I'm sure of it. How much has he opened up to you about this stuff?

 

It's funny that you say this, I thought the exact same thing. There is something very vulnerable about him, like he is still bleeding from some kind of wound on the inside. I've probed about his childhood, though, and from what he's told me, it was one of those happy all-American ones. Wealthy married parents, 3 siblings, 2 dogs; a house in the suburbs and Little League games every weekend for everyone.

 

Who knows, though, what kinds of secrets lurk on the edges of those kinds of lives. Maybe there's something, maybe there's not. Either way, I do think he has emotional hang-ups. Maybe they just all originated inside his head.

 

You may not see it now, but I suspect he's emotionally closed off. The fact that he's been so reluctant to get into a relationship before suggests it. You're just now getting to know him, but this could become more of an issue as your relationship develops. I don't think he's a virgin because of his shyness but because of his fear of intimacy. Any attractive guy can get sex if he really wants it. Maybe his shyness is a subconscious defence mechanism that protects him from getting too close.

 

So just be aware going in that he's 1) very emotionally underveloped and immature, 2) predisposed to alcholism, 3) may have emotional baggage and problems with intimacy.

 

The good news is he can change because he's young and inexperienced. You can be the catalyst for his emotional development, but you'll have to put in a lot to break down his walls. I've been in three relationships with emotionally scarred, inexperienced guys and in all three cases I was able to open them up and change them for the better through sheer persistence (they even thanked me). But it took a lot of pushing to finally get there. Had I met them later in life, I'm sure my efforts would have been futile. Also, they didn't have addictions like TT does.

 

At this point in my life, I wouldn't take on another "project" boyfriend. It was unhealthy for me to want to change another person. I think I was trying to prove to myself that I could win over unavailable guys because my dad was unavailable.

 

I'm not sure this guy is right for you unless you don't mind the extra work.

 

I completely agree with everything you said. He'd be a project boyfriend, for sure. Luckily, I have some experience with these types (actually all my experience is with these types) so I don't think cracking him would be that hard. All it takes is empathy and enough sensitivity to know where to push; most people want to be cracked. We all want to be understood.

 

The virgin thing... you might be right, but I'm still not sure what the deal is. According to B, TT has never had a gf nor shown any interest in getting one. According to an uncomfortable TT who mumbled that he felt like a loser telling me about this stuff, he's had one and it lasted 6 months.

 

He is really objectively attractive so I know it would be easy for him to get laid if he wanted to. It seems like he thinks that he should have, but he doesn't really want to.

 

Even with me, I've noticed, for example, that he has made no attempt to acquire condoms like someone wanting to get laid would have and that he was relieved when I said I wanted to slow things down. He has also asked me a few times whether sex would ruin what we have.

[shadowplay]

An alcoholic cannot change alone. He needs outside help. You cannot change him in that regard. You may be able to open him up emotionally, but you will not be able to make him sober. And until he's sober his other problems will be hard to fix.

 

The more you write about him, the less confident I feel about your long term potential of happiness together. It's dangerous for two people with addictions to get together, especially if they aren't trying hard to overcome them.

 

I mean imagine if you ever were to marry him the kind of environment you would be raising your kids into. Even if he sobered up, he always would have the strong risk of relapsing. Plus, you'd be passing down a lot of alcoholic genes.

 

Do you really want to be around somebody who is blacking out and drinking to sickness all the time because he hates his life? It's depressing, and not the start of a healthy relationship. It would be one thing if he was actively trying to get better, but it sounds like he's in total denial.

 

Just because you have your own alcohol related problems doesn't mean you have to be more forgiving of the alcoholism of others.

[shadowplay]

 

Even with me, I've noticed, for example, that he has made no attempt to acquire condoms like someone wanting to get laid would have and that he was relieved when I said I wanted to slow things down. He has also asked me a few times whether sex would ruin what we have.

 

I'll admit, that's pretty cute. I don't know, the only guy I dated like that who wanted to slow things down physically turned out to be bi...then gay...then straight...then transgendered. He's definitely not gay, right? Have you asked him whether he's ever been attracted to another guy? It's good to eliminate that possibility.

[spookie]

An alcoholic cannot change alone. He needs outside help. You cannot change him in that regard. You may be able to open him up emotionally, but you will not be able to make him sober. And until he's sober his other problems will be hard to fix.

 

The more you write about him, the less confident I feel about your long term potential of happiness together. It's dangerous for two people with addictions to get together, especially if they aren't trying hard to overcome them.

 

I mean imagine if you ever were to marry him the kind of environment you would be raising your kids into. Even if he sobered up, he always would have the strong risk of relapsing. Plus, you'd be passing down a lot of alcoholic genes.

 

Do you really want to be around somebody who is blacking out and drinking to sickness all the time because he hates his life? It's depressing, and not the start of a healthy relationship. It would be one thing if he was actively trying to get better, but it sounds like he's in total denial.

 

Just because you have your own alcohol related problems doesn't mean you have to be more forgiving of the alcoholism of others.

 

An alcoholic cannot change, but is he an alcoholic? I don't think anyone who drinks, even to the point of excess, is automatically a terminal alcoholic. Some people go through periods in their lives when they do this kind of thing and then, for one reason or another, change their lifestyles.

 

I like to think that I will be one of them.

 

One reason I'm not running right now is that he seems to want to spend a lot of sober one-on-one time with me. It makes me think that maybe, like me, he only drinks when other people are drinking, which just happens to be constantly, but that he'd be happier (like me) if he weren't.

 

Maybe I'll stop drinking for next week and see if he follows. I mean, it's hard to tell who's encouraging whom; which one is the bigger drunk of the two of us.

 

I'll admit, that's pretty cute. I don't know, the only guy I dated like that who wanted to slow things down physically turned out to be bi...then gay...then straight...then transgendered. He's definitely not gay, right? Have you asked him whether he's ever been attracted to another guy? It's good to eliminate that possibility.

 

Haha, transgendered??? You really know how to pick em...

 

I don't think he's gay. He always has a raging hard-on the whole time we're together, and a gay person would not have thought of titty-****ing as something to do naked.

[Stockalone]

Anyway, so he's a shy, non-confrontational conformist. The shyness and desire to be liked drive him to drink. When he drinks, the schism between what he thinks and what he's pretending to think is wide and apparent, and his inhibitions go out the window, and that's what brings out the belligerence, if I am right. He finally has the courage to make the socially wrong decision to be himself; and the first thing he does about that is go about setting everyone right: his friends are ashsholes, he hates his job.

 

I COULD be wrong. But that's what I think.

 

If he drinks to escape a life he hates (at least one he isn't happy with), then he won't stop drinking. The drinking is his outlet, it gives him the cahnce to act up and to escape the restraints of the things he hates.

 

 

Like I said, the chemistry is strong. He's like a magnet to me. All I want to do is touch when we're together.

 

That is fairly obvious.

 

 

It's hard for me to bring up his drinking as a serious issue without sounding like a hypocrite when I have all the same problems. That said, on the drive to the airport I did ask him if it ever made him feel uncomfortable. He said sometimes, like when back in college, he'd get pissed off at parties and walk 10 miles home through snow, amazed in the morning that he didn't freeze to death in a field somewhere.

 

I agree with Shadowplay on this. If you both keep going to drink together, he won't change. And more importantly, it won't do you any good.

 

You have had so much to overcome. Why not overcome the alcohol? If you and TT would look after each other to keep the other sober, it could work in a good way that helps both of you. If you keep just drinking, it will only drag you down.

 

 

I asked if he thought we were alcoholics. We both come from extended families full of alcoholics and immediate families where drinking and drugs are completely not ok, so, IMO, we definitely have the right predispositions. He said one sign is drinking more than one intends, and that, since he always intends to blackout, he's in the clear. (He LIKES blacking out, and I've seen him drink to nausea, vomit, and then continue to drink.) He also said that since this kind of behavior is fairly acceptable in college and for a couple of years after, he wasn't worried about it just yet.

 

It's sad that alcohol seems to be a peccadillo, a minor problem. Maybe some people can just stop one day, but I don't thnk it will be that easy for TT.

 

 

I guess it should worry me, getting involved with someone like that. Everyone says you cannot change someone, and I know that already I'm looking forward to bringing out a sober, independent-thinking TT. I know he's in there. He's even showed himself a couple of times, and it's the guy I like. I really think all he needs is the assurance of acceptance.

 

Yes, you should be worried. It's also understandable that you want to help TT become sober, happy and confident.

 

After all, he seems so perfect in your eyes, except for that drinking problem. Sadly, love will not always be enough to change people for the better.

 

 

He'd be a project boyfriend, for sure. Luckily, I have some experience with these types (actually all my experience is with these types) so I don't think cracking him would be that hard. All it takes is empathy and enough sensitivity to know where to push; most people want to be cracked. We all want to be understood.

 

It's admirable that you wouldn't mind a project boyfriend. However, you should be more concerned about your own life at the moment. If the drinking causes you to show up at work with a hang over and you can hardly stay awake, things have gotten way out of hand.

 

Even if he spends a lot of sober time with you. While that obviously makes him happy, he still hates the other part of his life like his job. I don't know if being with you will automatically cure whatever issues he has with his life.

 

 

The virgin thing... you might be right, but I'm still not sure what the deal is. According to B, TT has never had a gf nor shown any interest in getting one. According to an uncomfortable TT who mumbled that he felt like a loser telling me about this stuff, he's had one and it lasted 6 months.

 

He is really objectively attractive so I know it would be easy for him to get laid if he wanted to. It seems like he thinks that he should have, but he doesn't really want to.

 

There are so many possibilities for this. Unless he tells you why, you will never know the reason.

 

 

 

Even with me, I've noticed, for example, that he has made no attempt to acquire condoms like someone wanting to get laid would have and that he was relieved when I said I wanted to slow things down. He has also asked me a few times whether sex would ruin what we have.

 

Performance anxiety, wondering if he will be judged, rated, etc.

 

Buying condoms would exactly imply that, that he wants to get laid. Obviously, he does want to have sex with you, but he could be afraid that buying condoms appears to be desperate. He doesn't want you to think that he is only in it for the sex or to pressure you to have sex, now that he has condoms.

 

 

I'll admit, that's pretty cute. I don't know, the only guy I dated like that who wanted to slow things down physically turned out to be bi...then gay...then straight...then transgendered. He's definitely not gay, right? Have you asked him whether he's ever been attracted to another guy? It's good to eliminate that possibility.

 

What is it with you women? Every guy who doesn't try to get into your pants as soon as possible is potentially gay?

 

Sorry shadowplay, I was just venting. That was not directed at you personally.

[shadowplay]

What is it with you women? Every guy who doesn't try to get into your pants as soon as possible is potentially gay?

 

Sorry shadowplay, I was just venting. That was not directed at you personally.

 

I was sharing the one experience I've had with a guy like that. Even if it's unlikely, I think it's always good to eliminate the possibility...because if I hadn't questioned this guy's straightness I would have been confused for months and thought I was doing something wrong.

 

He was in denial about his sexuality and it wasn't until I began to question it that he did as well. I've heard a lot of stories from women who've gotten involved with closeted, superficially "asexual" men only to have their hearts broken. Based on Spookie's description of TT's arousal, it sounds like he is straight.

[shadowplay]

An alcoholic cannot change, but is he an alcoholic? I don't think anyone who drinks, even to the point of excess, is automatically a terminal alcoholic. Some people go through periods in their lives when they do this kind of thing and then, for one reason or another, change their lifestyles.

 

I like to think that I will be one of them.

 

One reason I'm not running right now is that he seems to want to spend a lot of sober one-on-one time with me. It makes me think that maybe, like me, he only drinks when other people are drinking, which just happens to be constantly, but that he'd be happier (like me) if he weren't.

 

Maybe I'll stop drinking for next week and see if he follows. I mean, it's hard to tell who's encouraging whom; which one is the bigger drunk of the two of us.

 

 

 

Haha, transgendered??? You really know how to pick em...

 

I don't think he's gay. He always has a raging hard-on the whole time we're together, and a gay person would not have thought of titty-****ing as something to do naked.

 

Based on what you've described he seems to fit the definition of an alcoholic:

 

The DSM-IV (the standard for diagnosis in psychiatry and psychology) defines alcohol abuse as repeated use despite recurrent adverse consequences.[3] It further defines alcohol dependence as alcohol abuse combined with tolerance, withdrawal, and an uncontrollable drive to drink.[3]

 

He's young enough to be able to change, but he will only change once he is totally determined to do so...which I don't see any evidence of at this point. It sounds like he's in denial. The longer he waits, the harder it will be. He also would need to go cold turkey.

 

It's great if you guys support and help each other, but you'll be unlikely to fight such a strong addiction without enlisting some outside help.

 

What do you think of the idea of going to AA meetings together? Or at least if he doesn't want to go, I think you should alone.

[Replicant]

TT and I could not tear ourselves away from the keg downstairs on Thursday night. I don't know how many pitchers we knocked back between the two of us, but it was enough for me to spend the evening slumped over a toilet seat, barfing.

 

I was still fcvked up when we woke up for work the next morning. So fcvked up, in fact, that the first thing I did when I stumbled into the office at 7 AM was run to the bathroom to throw up some more.

 

I have a drinking problem, obviously.

 

I personally don't see the problem with going out having fun and really getting your drink on like you did on this occasion, and the fallout of a good night of partying (who the heck hasn't!?). Especially in your early 20's the frequency is much more. I think select (so called) Mother Teresa's here are being a little harsh on you, possibly looking past their own exploits. Where as I think you'll personally figure a lot of your problems out in due time, that comes with growing up. Such as getting off the pole and into a better career...etc.

 

I think the main issue here would be workplace relationships, i'm sure you know the saying and what can come of such so i don't need to go into details. Proceed with caution.

[Prodigal Princess]

I personally don't see the problem with going out having fun and really getting your drink on like you did on this occasion, and the fallout of a good night of partying (who the heck hasn't!?). Especially in your early 20's the frequency is much more. I think select (so called) Mother Teresa's here are being a little harsh on you, possibly looking past their own exploits. Where as I think you'll personally figure a lot of your problems out in due time, that comes with growing up. Such as getting off the pole and into a better career...etc.

 

I think the main issue here would be workplace relationships, i'm sure you know the saying and what can come of such so i don't need to go into details. Proceed with caution.

 

I agree with this. Why bother overanalysing someone's behaviour when they're trashed? It means nothing, it's just drunken stupidity.

 

Neither of you are alcoholics. You're just kids in your twenties having fun and growing up.

[Nemo]

Neither of you are alcoholics. You're just kids in your twenties having fun and growing up.

Exactly!! These are the years to experiment. I just love that feeling of being taken to within an inch of my life, and then sucked back for several inches. That can sure get addictive. But young people can stop anytime they want, and that's the key. Not that they would want to. Unless their arses need a little break. There's no shame in that.

 

Getting trashed is almost as much fun as sex. It's just like a full-body orgasm, but even more fluid is involved. And you don't remember it the next day. But that's great, because it always feels like your first time.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

An alcoholic cannot change, but is he an alcoholic? I don't think anyone who drinks, even to the point of excess, is automatically a terminal alcoholic. Some people go through periods in their lives when they do this kind of thing and then, for one reason or another, change their lifestyles.

 

 

There is a difference between abusing alcohol and being an alcoholic. For example, someone who binge drinks every weekend but stays sober during the week. I consider that more like alcohol abuse, although it could certainly lead to alcoholism.

 

Unfortunately, it is all too common for young people to consider binge drinking the norm. When your friends are doing the same thing, it is easy to see drinking to excess as if there's nothing wrong with it. I've done it myself too many times.

[shadowplay]

From what Spookie has described her drinking goes beyond getting trashed every weekend. I think it's pretty clear her alcohol abuse exceeds that of most college grads and will only worsen if she doesn't try to cut back. I disagree with the other posters who think it's no big deal.

 

Your twenties are a time when you establish good or bad habits that can last with you through life. She has the ability to change, but I hope she starts establishing healthy habits soon or it will just get harder and harder.

 

I'm no saint my self, but I have enough sense to see when another person is being self destructive. I know a lot about addiction from having several family members who have grappled with it, and she has all the warning signs. Better to nip it in the bud now.

 

I would say the same thing to her as a friend.

[sb129]

. Where as I think you'll personally figure a lot of your problems out in due time, that comes with growing up. Such as getting off the pole and into a better career...etc.

 

I think the main issue here would be workplace relationships, i'm sure you know the saying and what can come of such so i don't need to go into details. Proceed with caution.

 

She is off the pole. This is her first job that she is using her education to do, the one she was SO excited to get etc etc. I would hate to see Spookie jeopardise her brand new career over something like booze or a guy.

 

I agree with this. Why bother overanalysing someone's behaviour when they're trashed? It means nothing, it's just drunken stupidity.

 

Neither of you are alcoholics. You're just kids in your twenties having fun and growing up.

 

I agree with this, my main concern is that there seems to be alot of getting trashed with co-workers, bosses etc, and that isn't something I would encourage any friend to get into the habit of.

 

I haven't ever really worked in the kind of job where you work with your friends and socialising is an important part of it though, so maybe I just don't get it.

[blind_otter]

Apparently, when you're in your 20s you cannot be an alcoholic. Hah. HAH hahahaha. Yeah. Right. Oh man, I just laughed so hard I had to wipe tears from my eyes. I'd be willing to bet money that this "sage advice" comes from people who also have alcohol issues.

 

Spookie, to me you are obviously someone with an alcohol problem. It's not about the amount of alcohol you drink, though that is of definite concern - it's about WHY you drink and HOW you use alcohol. For you, it's a means to an end. It's not about going out and enjoying yourself, it's a way to achieve a mind state that you seek out with conscious intent. And you do this frequently, and without regard to the consequences that you will have to face.

 

You also make excuses for and justify your drinking. A person who does not have an alcohol probelm simply does not do this - it doesn't even occur to them to justify their habits, because it is not a problem. You are aware that this is an issue, and continue with your habits.

 

Also, replete throughout most of your posts on this thread, at least, are so many codependent enabling red flags that I will not bother to list them separately. You are involving yourself with a man for what you hope he will be one day - not for what he is right now. You are also detailing why and how he will change, without any supporting evidence and with actual evidence to the contrary.

 

The thing is, I know this will fall on deaf ears - from very personal experience. You will do what you feel is the right thing to do, and only the reality of the consequences you will face as you continue down this path will eventually (hopefully) hit home. IME alcoholics simply do not listen to the wisdom of experience, and on some level I don't think they are even capable of learning from others' mistakes. Alcoholics seem to universally have to hit their head repeatedly against the same brick wall until they are either (1) dead, (2) suffering in old age from the consequences of longterm excessive drinking, or (3) they somehow come to the realization that they really can never,ever indulge in that first drink. But I have to say, most of them end up in scenarios 1 and 2, and very few manage to make it to number 3.

[Art_Critic]

Apparently, when you're in your 20s you cannot be an alcoholic. Hah. HAH hahahaha. Yeah. Right. Oh man, I just laughed so hard I had to wipe tears from my eyes. I'd be willing to bet money that this "sage advice" comes from people who also have alcohol issues.

 

Spookie, to me you are obviously someone with an alcohol problem. It's not about the amount of alcohol you drink, though that is of definite concern - it's about WHY you drink and HOW you use alcohol. For you, it's a means to an end. It's not about going out and enjoying yourself, it's a way to achieve a mind state that you seek out with conscious intent. And you do this frequently, and without regard to the consequences that you will have to face.

 

You also make excuses for and justify your drinking. A person who does not have an alcohol probelm simply does not do this - it doesn't even occur to them to justify their habits, because it is not a problem. You are aware that this is an issue, and continue with your habits.

 

Also, replete throughout most of your posts on this thread, at least, are so many codependent enabling red flags that I will not bother to list them separately. You are involving yourself with a man for what you hope he will be one day - not for what he is right now. You are also detailing why and how he will change, without any supporting evidence and with actual evidence to the contrary.

 

The thing is, I know this will fall on deaf ears - from very personal experience. You will do what you feel is the right thing to do, and only the reality of the consequences you will face as you continue down this path will eventually (hopefully) hit home. IME alcoholics simply do not listen to the wisdom of experience, and on some level I don't think they are even capable of learning from others' mistakes. Alcoholics seem to universally have to hit their head repeatedly against the same brick wall until they are either (1) dead, (2) suffering in old age from the consequences of longterm excessive drinking, or (3) they somehow come to the realization that they really can never,ever indulge in that first drink. But I have to say, most of them end up in scenarios 1 and 2, and very few manage to make it to number 3.

 

B_O.. I love your posts on threads like these..

 

I hope the OP reads it and understands that she does have a problem with Alcohol..

 

Apparently, when you're in your 20s you cannot be an alcoholic. Hah. HAH hahahaha. Yeah. Right. Oh man, I just laughed so hard I had to wipe tears from my eyes. I'd be willing to bet money that this "sage advice" comes from people who also have alcohol issues.

 

and this particular advice is also a little nugget worth paying attention too and also something that should not be overlooked...

[shadowplay]

I'd be willing to bet money that this "sage advice" comes from people who also have alcohol issues.

 

I was thinking the same thing...

[Art_Critic]

I was thinking the same thing...

 

When I realized that I was an alcoholic and quit drinking I had just turned 24.. I drank Alcoholically from about the age of 19...

[Nemo]

Heavy drinking is the norm for young people. And they just grow out of it. They graduate, get married, have children, take on responsibilities, etc.

 

Nothing to worry about. Just about every young person enjoys drinking heavily, and it's a rite of passage. Completely normal. Nothing to be concerned about. Live it up and enjoy life!

 

Basically, it's only a problem when the alcohol is being used to mask deeper issues. But young people are incredibly resilient, and this is rarely the case.

 

Once again, live it up and enjoy life. The wet blankets on this thread are just jealous.

[shadowplay]

Just about every young person enjoys drinking heavily, and it's a rite of passage. Completely normal. Nothing to be concerned about. Live it up and enjoy life!

 

That's not true, and there are varying levels of abuse. Spookie's level of drinking is beyond the norm. Just because most young people "grow out of" their drinking phases, doesn't mean all do. Those who don't are at the extreme end of the spectrum -- heavier drinkers like Spookie. People forget about those who are left behind when their peers "grow up," developing bad habits in their college years that turn into serious alcohol abuse later in life.

 

You know who they are. They're the kids who are always plastered or blacking out at every party, who self-medicate when they're feeling down, who start to drink alone on week-nights. I've known people like this and I always feel powerless to help them. It's sad because you can picture what their lives will be like ten years from now if they don't get their act together.

 

A person in their twenties is perfectly capable of changing their habits, but they have to be willing and ready to do so. They have to take it seriously.