Another porn question...

[trust]

From looking at your avatar, I have simply NO idea why your husband would pick porn over you.

 

And to that I say:

 

Jen: I want to explain the duck thing. Currently I can’t afford to buy an office building on the “strip” to put my latest enterprise. So I’m going the “home office route” for now until I build enough capital. My home backs up to a lake. There are many ducks in this lake. I’m a bachelor, and sometimes we buy bread. We’ll eat maybe 2 slices to make a Nutella sandwich and then we have 20 feet of a loaf that goes stale. The ducks have found that the cool place to hang out is my backyard because this is where they get free and effortlessly gotten bread. Since they’re there, and I’m here, sometimes I watch them while I work. I’ve noticed this one duck who has the feathers all messed up on the back of her head. I never knew why until I saw an “event.” What happens is the drakes (male ducks) jump on her back to get their freak on. Obviously they don’t have arms so they need something to hold on to. So they grab the back of her head with their bill and have their way with her. Ah hah! Now it all makes sense. She doesn’t know that I know that she’s the “slutduck.” I can now spot her in a crowd, by her messed up feathers on the back of her head. I realize they are just animals and they do what they do without regard to integrity. They’re free from it. But I can’t help notice that the level of integrity of many people I see, are right down there with the slutduck. This is what I meant when I said, “Don’t be that duck."

[Jennifer26]

Let me start off by saying that I am a bit inebriated..

 

So, my husband noticed that I was not acting quite right today and persisted to know what was wrong.

 

I told him I was upset he was back to viewing porn so soon after our discussion about it. He countered that I said it was okay for him to look. Which I did, but I also said I look occasionally and that him looking less than 48 hours after our discussion showed a lack of his willingness to work with me.

 

He said the problem is my looking, and how I feel about myself. He's done a reversal to the other day when he admitted he looks too much. Now it is all my issue, and since I said he could look at porn I was being too vague I guess.

 

We're not even on speaking terms at this point. Since early this afternoon and our discussion where I said I was disappointed he went back to viewing porn so soon.

 

I am at a loss as to what to do next. I can't live in this environment where there is no communication, and part of me wants to tell him to just go. But there is part of me that is so afraid of being alone and it is holding me back.

[Jersey Shortie]

JS, How do you come to that conclusion? What BS. Please quit with all the doom and gloom and man bashing. You provide no real solutions in your posts, just sympathy.

 

 

Come on. You are having a man's baby and he goes to a strip joint? How crappy can you possibly get. She talked about all the different things she was trying to do and he still is turning to porn. It seems to me that no matter what a woman does, at the end of the day a man still needs his porn too to be happy. Conclusion: no matter what you do, men are never happy with what they have.

 

The solutions you provide are of the guys-club mentality. WHich works out great for guys but in relationships there are two people invovled. It leaves me wondering what happens to the other side.

[The Collector]

Wow. There's so much wrong with that....I don't even know where to begin. Clearly you are one of those who are at the low end of the emotional development pole (not meant to be a slam...just an observation).

 

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhh…it’s a “framework” and “ideal state” now….How convenient to dodge the hard work of integrity and setup a new system devoid of it. I suppose if I had no clue as to what integrity was, I’d setup the same thing and call it a “belief system.” Stay in your camp of no integrity, but stop trying to recruit members from my camp of integrity (those who wish to do the work to keep the bar high). You’re so Hollywood.

 

 

Unrealistic and unattractive? Of course it’s unrealistic and unattractive. Who wants to do all that work that goes with keeping the bar of integrity high? Driving the speed limit is unrealistic and unattractive to me but I don’t go convincing other people that speeding is ok because I don’t agree with the law. What laws are you adhering to? Someone (our society) made some laws, we agree to them to avoid chaos, and have a system of checks and balances setup. Works fine for the most part. Better than a system where anything goes. The reason we can’t get along with respect to relationships is because everyone is writing their own laws. There’s no standard. Welcome to chaos, and welcome to this thread.

 

Wow. There's so much wrong with that.. I don't even know where to begin. Clearly you are one of those who are at the low end of the comprehension/rational debate pole (not meant to be a slam...just an observation).

 

You are accusing me (and anyone who agrees with my cogent, well-argued points) as being morally relatavist, and that rather there should is/some universal standard/law about the limits of porn use/monogamy that just so happens to be your preferred ideal.

 

But as you seem to acknowledge, there is/cannot be any such agreement. It is up to each of us to make our own deals with our partners, and bring some order to the chaos in order to make the relationship work. Porn a deal-breaker for you? Then you'll have to find a man who isn't interested or will give it up for you. Meanwhile women who aren't threatened by porn or enjoy it also will have a wider selection of men to choose from. Likewise a man who cannot bear that his wife owns a vibrator (or might send other men naked photos of herwhen she's unhappy...) will have to select a mate from the subset of women who don't own one.

 

But like Jersey_Shortie, I am not expecting any rational, point-addressing response from you. You both have an emotionally derived belief that porn is wrong, and any man that watches it should stop if asked to by his partner. You have your high-horse, your moral certainty, 'integrity' and possibly even God on your side, and I'm 'so Hollywood.'

 

If you choose to address one point from this post, make it the next one. What do you say to all the women, in this thread, all the ones I've been out with or know in real life, who have no problem with (their) men watching porn? Do they lack 'integrity'? Should they see the errors of their ways and be 'recruited' by your absolutist anti-porn camp? And is it hypocritical if they own a vibrator or doesn't it count if their source of extra-curricular sexual pleasure is a machine that vibrates instead of showing pixellated images of other women?

[Starman]

Let me start off by saying that I am a bit inebriated..

 

So, my husband noticed that I was not acting quite right today and persisted to know what was wrong.

 

I told him I was upset he was back to viewing porn so soon after our discussion about it. He countered that I said it was okay for him to look. Which I did, but I also said I look occasionally and that him looking less than 48 hours after our discussion showed a lack of his willingness to work with me.

 

He said the problem is my looking, and how I feel about myself. He's done a reversal to the other day when he admitted he looks too much. Now it is all my issue, and since I said he could look at porn I was being too vague I guess.

 

We're not even on speaking terms at this point. Since early this afternoon and our discussion where I said I was disappointed he went back to viewing porn so soon.

 

I am at a loss as to what to do next. I can't live in this environment where there is no communication, and part of me wants to tell him to just go. But there is part of me that is so afraid of being alone and it is holding me back.

 

Jen,

 

So sorry that your husband is falling off the wagon so soon after your discussion. Give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself seems to fit right about here.

 

I wish my wife would be as understanding as you, an occasional look now and then without interferring with our sex life. You even are willing to watch while having sex with your husband, just what else could he possibly want?

 

Your husband has no idea what he's got right there in the other room, a beautiful wife who is not unreasonable, even compromises on his porn viewing to try and keep everyone happy and he takes advantage of it. Very disturbing. Sorry that you are going through such things right now.

 

I know if my wife would tell me that once or twice a week was OK that would be more then enough because I don't want it to impact our sex life negatively, I recover ok but I'm not 18 anymore either, LOL!

 

Hope thinks get better for you Jen, a beautiful woman like you deserves it!

[Ruby Slippers]

I am at a loss as to what to do next. I can't live in this environment where there is no communication, and part of me wants to tell him to just go. But there is part of me that is so afraid of being alone and it is holding me back.

I agree with everyone else that you are being completely fair and reasonable, Jenn. It seems pretty clear he is a porn addict and the threat of losing you is not enough for him to stop. I know that I would rather be alone and happy than in a bad relationship and miserable.

[trust]

I agree with everyone else that you are being completely fair and reasonable, Jenn. It seems pretty clear he is a porn addict and the threat of losing you is not enough for him to stop. I know that I would rather be alone and happy than in a bad relationship and miserable.

 

And you've just supported my signature. Bad relationship? This is a marriage honey. If it's not this man vs. porn, it'll be another man vs. something else. Throw it all away and repeat the cycle! Throw in the other common female cliches here: "Life's too short to not be happy!" "He's not worth it girl!" "There's something better out there for you girl!" So sad.

[trust]

Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?

 

What we are ending up with, in this thread, are two girls (Jen and Raven) who have obviously come here to do more venting than listening, learning, and benefitting from the help.

 

Then we have the 3rd party, consisting of one camp with low to no integrity battling it out with folks in another camp, who at least fight for high integrity.

 

Neither camp is "perfect" but that's not what it's all about. The folks in the no-to-low integrity camp are in that camp because they aren't as emotionally wise as the folks in the high integrity camp. Their best defense is ignorance. The only good excuse though, is youth. We are supposed to live and learn but unfortunately, most will let the learning just "happen" by making mistakes. So eventually they are no longer young, and unfortunately, not very wise either. But since they don't like what the high-integrity camp has to say, and are feeling attacked, they hold out, and allow their decisions to be more emotion based decisions than decisions of wisdom and reason. After all, it's the path of least resistance.

 

We have folks who are bordering each camp. These bordering folks are thinking whether they should move to the other camp. It's a wonderful thing when someone in the low-to-no integrity camp, usually someone on the border, "see's the light" from the wiser camp because of proximity, and changes camps.

 

It's really sad when someone is on the border of the high integrity camp, and is swayed into dumbing it down. Mainly because the low-to-no integrity camp requires less work.

 

What I would like to know is: Who's winning here?

[Ruby Slippers]

And you've just supported my signature. Bad relationship? This is a marriage honey. If it's not this man vs. porn, it'll be another man vs. something else. Throw it all away and repeat the cycle! Throw in the other common female cliches here: "Life's too short to not be happy!" "He's not worth it girl!" "There's something better out there for you girl!" So sad.

So, after all the talking and counseling that have had minimal results, what should she do -- suffer through a sexless marriage with no communication that appears to be a dead end, or move on to a better life?

[Jersey Shortie]

It's funny how sensitive men turn when they think someone is attractive.

 

 

You even are willing to watch while having sex with your husband, just what else could he possibly want?

 

Obviously he wants more porn. Isn't that what most men want after all.

 

I really don't even get why men have relationships with real life women since we can see how very unimportant she is compared to a guy's pornography.

[trust]

It's funny how sensitive men turn when they think someone is attractive.

 

HAHAHAHA... I know, right? I've only commented on what is generally "attractive"...which could be different from what is attractive to me personally. I think a sense of humor is attractive (and it just so happens that I'm attracted to it). Physically fit bleach blondes with fake boobs are attractive --->> but I'm not attracted to them. Most of those superhot girls (like my ex) have gotten sooooo far in life off of their looks, that they haven't had to do the *work* to improve their inner selves. So they invest a tremdous amount of time and money on their outter selves because that behavior has been consistently rewarded.

 

If I understand what you are insinuating, and for the record (doubly so because my past posts are displayed), I have made no comment on the possibility of Jen's photograph being physically attractive to me. I believe I've said things in favor of Jen, and also things she didn't want to hear.

 

Obviously he wants more porn. Isn't that what all men want after all.

 

Give the "all" men a rest though. I agree with what you are saying...it is *most* men. Keep it up and you'll loose the support from *all men*.

[Starman]

It's funny how sensitive men turn when they think someone is attractive.

 

It has nothing to do with how attractive someone is, it's the fact that she is making a solid effort at what appears to be a very reasonable compromise about the whole issue and he takes advantage of it.

[Jersey Shortie]

Most of those superhot girls (like my ex) have gotten sooooo far in life off of their looks, that they haven't had to do the *work* to improve their inner selves. So they invest a tremdous amount of time and money on their outter selves because that behavior has been consistently rewarded.

 

This is true, the part about outer selves being rewarded. Especially in the case with men on women. That isn't to say that there aren't very pretty women out ther that haven't developed in other areas of their life though.

 

Just look at alot of the responses to Jennifer and the guys being very friendly/flirting/ almost "brown-nosing". And to take this situation and applying it to porn, guys wonder why women feel threatened when a man is checking out other women via porn or just out and about. We aren't stupid. We know how easily swayed men are by a pretty face. The responses to Jennifer out line that (And I hope you don't take that as an insult Jennifer, it isn't. I am just making a point to the response of a few of the male posters. You're avatar is attractive and they are all sympathetic mumurs of encourgment to you and flirty comments about how if you were their SO, they wouldn't be looking at porn.) I wonder how many of these guys have an SO.

 

 

 

Give the "all" men a rest though. I agree with what you are saying...it is *most* men. Keep it up and you'll loose the support from *all men*.

Yes I mean "most" men but considering it is "most" men it can feel like all men. Most of us run into "most men".

[Jennifer26]

Whether or not the male posters are being supportive based on my avatar, or because they agree with my situation - I don't know. It is nice however, to have a few men agreeing with me here. According to my husband he isn't really doing anything wrong, and it is all me, my insecurities, yada, yada. .

 

So I guess I feel a bit validated by the support I am receiving here. I suspect I would be getting pretty much the same responses, avatar or not, regardless. Because I think the reality is I am being pretty fair with my husband.

 

Last night we had it out several times. He refused to talk to me, and upon my insistence we discuss this and figure out what we're going to do he would then shout at me. The issue is all my own now, and he feels (or at least says) that he is just doing what he has always done and that I have changed, not him. And he said he went a day in between viewing porn, instead of everyday! Wow, great job honey!

 

This morning he wouldn't speak to me at all, and only brushed passed me while glaring. Last night I was in our bed sobbing, while he slept on the couch.

 

He was gathering some things I think as well. I'm not sure if he is planning to leave or not, but I suspect he is. The way he was looking at me last night and this morning was the way you would look at someone you absolutely hate. I can't imagine he still loves me, or wants to make this work.

[Starman]

I really don't even get why men have relationships with real life women since we can see how very unimportant she is compared to a guy's pornography.

 

You are exactly right, it wasn't until the advent of porn that men became uncaring and unfaithful to their women. Mark Anthony didn't cheat on his wife with Cleopatra, it was Internet Porn that drove him to it.

 

You are the teetotaler of porn. We all understand that you hate it and the only thing you hate more are men who like it. Some men go way over the line with their porn habits, no question. They avoid any physical contact with their SOs and only use porn. I don't portend to understand that level of porn obssesion, it's unhealthy and truly destructive behavior.

 

Other couples enjoy it together, some it little amounts, others in larger amounts. Still others don't mind if their partner looks at it some as long as it doesn't become a substitute for actual intimacy.

 

So it's obvious there is no hard and fast rule about porn usage, it's a personal decision made by each person and couple, and as long as they can play within the boundaries of that everything is swell. The problems arise when one party forbids the action by the other. And this doesn't have to be porn, it can be any hobby or interest the other person has, especially of the other person doesn't feel they are doing anything wrong.

 

And just to add a little salt to the wound, men AND women have been visualizing fantasies in their heads LONG before the advent of modern porn. Just keep that in mind next time you are out in public, maybe EVERYONE you see is having a little fanasty in their head, oh the horror, the infidelity, the breakdown of society. Or maybe it's just for the most part harmless fanasty that is an important part of any healthy relationship for both the men and the women.

[Starman]

Whether or not the male posters are being supportive based on my avatar, or because they agree with my situation - I don't know. It is nice however, to have a few men agreeing with me here. According to my husband he isn't really doing anything wrong, and it is all me, my insecurities, yada, yada. .

 

So I guess I feel a bit validated by the support I am receiving here. I suspect I would be getting pretty much the same responses, avatar or not, regardless. Because I think the reality is I am being pretty fair with my husband.

 

Last night we had it out several times. He refused to talk to me, and upon my insistence we discuss this and figure out what we're going to do he would then shout at me. The issue is all my own now, and he feels (or at least says) that he is just doing what he has always done and that I have changed, not him. And he said he went a day in between viewing porn, instead of everyday! Wow, great job honey!

 

This morning he wouldn't speak to me at all, and only brushed passed me while glaring. Last night I was in our bed sobbing, while he slept on the couch.

 

He was gathering some things I think as well. I'm not sure if he is planning to leave or not, but I suspect he is. The way he was looking at me last night and this morning was the way you would look at someone you absolutely hate. I can't imagine he still loves me, or wants to make this work.

 

Jen,

 

So sorry to hear that your husband is acting this way. I know what insecurities look like and you don't have them too much at all from what I can see.

 

The fact that he can't control himself for even 2 or 3 days is dis-heartening. It's not like his only sexual release is porn, he has you for crying outloud, someone who is begging to be wanted by their husband.

 

Hopefully he will come around but right now he is acting very childish. I know it's hard but maybe you two could take a long weekend somewhere, just to get out of the house and let him remember just what an incredible experience it is to be with you. We know you are trying in this, it's shame that he isn't meeting you halfway.

[trust]

It has nothing to do with how attractive someone is, it's the fact that she is making a solid effort at what appears to be a very reasonable compromise about the whole issue and he takes advantage of it.

 

Earth to Starman: [it] being [JS's point] had much to do with attractiveness drawing attentiveness. You could only argue that *you* did nothing to prove her right. All you did was dismiss a known fact. If you look at the previous posts responding to Jen, it's apparent, if not downright obvious that they are flirting with her. And most did comment directly on how pretty she was based on her picture. In those cases, attractiveness did draw attentiveness --> exactly the point JS was making.

[angryyoungman70]

The problems arise when one party forbids the action by the other. And this doesn't have to be porn, it can be any hobby or interest the other person has, especially of the other person doesn't feel they are doing anything wrong.

 

An analogy to this for me would have been fly-fishing. Before our son was born, I was quite passionate about this pursuit. I got to know all of the local "legends" of the sport, wrote articles, shot a TV pilot, and spent perhaps 2-3 hours a night, 2-3 days per week in search of slippery, finned creatures in flowing waters.

 

Once our little guy came along, I realized that I would have to cut back to perhaps 1 outing per week (during fishing season of course, which in my part of the world is only 4.5 months out of the year). I did this, however it was still too much for my wife. We had several arguments about fishing, and I spent many nights on the couch (it didn't really affect our sex life, as it had already been almost non-existent for years prior).

 

In the end, I resigned myself to give up fishing completly, and di so for several years. Once the kids got a little older, I found that I could hit the water occasionally without upsetting my wife.

 

Nowadays, I average maybe 6-8 outings per year, most of them with my kids.

 

If you really need to find out about my relationship with my wife, please read some of my previous posts.

[Jersey Shortie]

Whether or not the male posters are being supportive based on my avatar, or because they agree with my situation - I don't know. It is nice however, to have a few men agreeing with me here.

 

I'd say it's a combination of both. It's always nice to have male support no doubt. It's too bad more guys can't be supportive when it comes to porn issues though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are the teetotaler of porn. We all understand that you hate it and the only thing you hate more are men who like it

.

 

If I am a teetotaler, you're a pro-porn activist.

 

What I hate is how most men consistently defend it over the real woman in their life. How most men lie about it, showing the importance of it in his life. How there is a lack of self control from men when it comes to porn, looking at other women and fantasizing about them. I really don't think asking for self control is asking too much. I don't really think most men value self control in themselves and rather live by the idea that they are "men" and that's why it's okay to do x, y, and z.

 

 

Still others don't mind if their partner looks at it some as long as it doesn't become a substitute for actual intimacy.

 

At some point in a relationship, porn is a subsitute for real intimacy at the given moment a man is choosing to look at a porn. You can attempt to placate that idea with such situations as "she isn't avaible". But how many men would still look at porn no matter how avaible their women made themselves to him? Conclusion: No matter what you do as a woman, a man is never happy with what he gets. A man obviously needs both porn and a real life relationship to feel fullfilled. As indicated by the many men that can't seem to let go of that loyatly to their porn over their SO.

 

 

The problems arise when one party forbids the action by the other. And this doesn't have to be porn, it can be any hobby or interest the other person has, especially of the other person doesn't feel they are doing anything wrong.

 

I don't see alot of posts on here about women forbidding their husbands to do things. The key difference between golf and porn is that golf doesn't have naked young women running around. The fact that pornography is in essence about women and sex, puts it on a different playing field then something as asexual as golf. I do see alot of posts where women are made to feel insecure about their position in their man's life when he makes pornography a regular guest into their relationship. And I see alot of men that don't really want to give value the importance of what their partner is saying in regards to porn. I don't think men put much stock in how a woman can be effect negativly by pornography.

 

And just to add a little salt to the wound, men AND women have been visualizing fantasies in their heads LONG before the advent of modern porn. Just keep that in mind next time you are out in public, maybe EVERYONE you see is having a little fanasty in their head, oh the horror, the infidelity, the breakdown of society. Or maybe it's just for the most part harmless fanasty that is an important part of any healthy relationship for both the men and the women.

 

Why would you already want to rub more salt into the wound Starman? I think that seems a little cruel on your part. But whatever.

 

A fantasy here and there is not a big deal. the degree to which men to think about other women, look at porn and the million other things men expect women to just "deal" with, is over whelming. I am not asking for men to be perfect...let me repeat: I am not asknig perfection from men. I am asking for more self control. It's not attractive in either partner when we let our "hormones" dictate what we do. Men like it no less in women. And women should in return to there best to not use their reactions as reason to do crappy things. I will repeat it again. I am not asking for perfection from men. I am asking for self control. But from the comments many men make it dosne't seem like there is a whole lot of self control being excerised. It's pretty easy to sustain monogomy when you have such outlegs like porn. And it makes that monogomy seem worth less.

 

And while I will sometimes look at a man out with his family and wonder how much porn he looks at and what he looks like, there IS something completely disheartening in the fact that you see a man there with his family, with his wife, his daughters and his sons, and when he goes home at night, he jsut might be pulling out some porno of 18 year old college girls showing their breasts. It makes that whole idea of family, love, respect and loyatly seem like a big joke to men. Because obviously that is what trumps at the end of the day.

[The Collector]

Jersey Shortie looks at a man with his family, fantasizes about him masturbating to porn, and he's the pervert.

[Jennifer26]

Jen,

 

So sorry to hear that your husband is acting this way. I know what insecurities look like and you don't have them too much at all from what I can see.

 

The fact that he can't control himself for even 2 or 3 days is dis-heartening. It's not like his only sexual release is porn, he has you for crying outloud, someone who is begging to be wanted by their husband.

 

Hopefully he will come around but right now he is acting very childish. I know it's hard but maybe you two could take a long weekend somewhere, just to get out of the house and let him remember just what an incredible experience it is to be with you. We know you are trying in this, it's shame that he isn't meeting you halfway.

 

I don't think he can come around. He has a lot of emotional turmoil from his past and I think he has a sexual addiction, maybe as a result.

 

His mother pretty much disowned him. His family is Mormon, and he is not and that was a huge factor in why they decided to leave him behind. That and he was 'leftover' from a prior marriage.

 

He feels low about himself, and I can see why. Having your family abandon you has to be pretty hard. I've tried to be here for him in anyway that I can. I am constantly assuring him he is a good person, and that I love him. But it isn't enough it seems. He will probably always be afraid of connecting too intimately with a real person, maybe for fear of being hurt again.

 

His upbringing also taught him that masturbation is dirty and wrong. His mother once caught him with a playboy type magazine and waited until a family function to out him on it, in front of all of his relatives. As a result, our sex life has been hindered, because he is too ashamed to do things with me. For example, I once wrote him a dirty letter and emailed it to him. It made him uncomfortable and he said he isn't into that sort of thing. I also once asked him to use a toy on me (he is always watching porn with women and vibrators, so I thought he was into that) and he refused. He will not masturbate anywhere near me and likes to keep it as this private, shameful event.

 

I read once that porn addiction often is about feeling the shame. Sort of a self punishment if you will. And I am sure it is a way for him to distance himself from the intimacy a marriage requires.

 

For now it is the porn, but I am sure eventually it will lead to other things, more strip clubs, an affair, prostitutes - what have you. A couple of months ago I noticed he had been viewing escorts on craigslist and was really upset. He swore he wasn't looking because he was interested, rather, because of the Elliott Spitzer fiasco and a program on NPR he had heard about online escorts. So it piqued his curiosity if this sort of thing really did exist. But part of me thinks he is full of it.

 

I don't trust him, and as a result I am constantly worrying about him having an affair. I know this is not healthy. If he is going to cheat, he is going to and there is probably little I can do to prevent it. Logically, I know this, but it is hard sometimes to think logically when emotions are involved.

 

I've often thought of getting breast implants, and doing other things I think may increase my attractiveness to him. And I know this is silly too. He should love me for who I am, after all he chose to marry me and I never had huge breasts or looked like a porn star. But I find myself in this competition mode sometimes, as stupid as I know it is.

 

I am just so upset I can hardly think clearly about any of this. I'm at work right now and I can't focus one bit. My stomach feels like it is in knots and my eyes are red and puffy from all of the crying I've done.

[trust]

You are exactly right, it wasn't until the advent of porn that men became uncaring and unfaithful to their women. Mark Anthony didn't cheat on his wife with Cleopatra, it was Internet Porn that drove him to it.

 

You need much schooling on Causality (cause and effect). You also need much schooling on sexual integrity (see post #84) Compromising sexual integrity comes in many forms. Internet porn being one of them. Your example not only is a bad one, but it's set up wrong. Are you proposing that Mark Antony *did* cheat on his wife and porn lead him to it? Because if he didn't and porn lead him to it, that's a double negative (I understood your sarcasm). I can understand how screwed up your example is. That would be a better example of cause and effect. You are nonsensical and so you type out nonsensical things.

 

You are the teetotaler of porn. We all understand that you hate it and the only thing you hate more are men who like it. Some men go way over the line with their porn habits, no question. They avoid any physical contact with their SOs and only use porn. I don't portend to understand that level of porn obssesion, it's unhealthy and truly destructive behavior.

 

Other couples enjoy it together, some it little amounts, others in larger amounts. Still others don't mind if their partner looks at it some as long as it doesn't become a substitute for actual intimacy.

Uhhhh....ok...sounds similar to about 50 years ago: Couples enjoy cigarette smoking together, some little amounts, others in larger amounts. Still others don't mind if their partner smokes some as long as it doesn't cause cancer. Flash forward 50 years. Damn, now there's a proven scientific link that smoking causes lung cancer. You're probably one of those who are still in denial. Keep thinking that "healthy" porn and a "healthy" marriage mix. And by what example do you give? You have a "healthy" amount of porn in your "healthy" marriage? How long have you been married? I have a few questions for your wife. Please have her post here.

 

So it's obvious there is no hard and fast rule about porn usage, it's a personal decision made by each person and couple, and as long as they can play within the boundaries of that everything is swell. The problems arise when one party forbids the action by the other. And this doesn't have to be porn, it can be any hobby or interest the other person has, especially of the other person doesn't feel they are doing anything wrong.

Wrong again. Please read/re-read Posts #84, 94 and 97. Truth is a personal decision, alright. You can decide to do what's right or you can decide to do what's wrong. According to you, when it's convenient, you pick a wrong thing and then label it as a preference. Where's the integrity in that?

 

And just to add a little salt to the wound, men AND women have been visualizing fantasies in their heads LONG before the advent of modern porn.

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

Just keep that in mind next time you are out in public, maybe EVERYONE you see is having a little fanasty in their head, oh the horror, the infidelity, the breakdown of society. Or maybe it's just for the most part harmless fanasty that is an important part of any healthy relationship for both the men and the women.

And you repeat yourself again....."Fantasy in their head" are thoughts. Taking it a big step forward is porn (in marriage). Big difference. Someone, though not I, is probably thinking about shaking the living daylights out of you right now. But actually doing it would be a big step forward.

[Order & Chaos]

You need much schooling on Causality (cause and effect). You also need much schooling on sexual integrity (see post #84) Compromising sexual integrity comes in many forms. Internet porn being one of them. Your example not only is a bad one, but it's set up wrong. Are you proposing that Mark Antony *did* cheat on his wife and porn lead him to it? Because if he didn't and porn lead him to it, that's a double negative (I understood your sarcasm). I can understand how screwed up your example is. That would be a better example of cause and effect. You are nonsensical and so you type out nonsensical things.

 

Uhhhh....ok...sounds similar to about 50 years ago: Couples enjoy cigarette smoking together, some little amounts, others in larger amounts. Still others don't mind if their partner smokes some as long as it doesn't cause cancer. Flash forward 50 years. Damn, now there's a proven scientific link that smoking causes lung cancer. You're probably one of those who are still in denial. Keep thinking that "healthy" porn and a "healthy" marriage mix. And by what example do you give? You have a "healthy" amount of porn in your "healthy" marriage? How long have you been married? I have a few questions for your wife. Please have her post here.

 

Wrong again. Please read/re-read Posts #84, 94 and 97. Truth is a personal decision, alright. You can decide to do what's right or you can decide to do what's wrong. According to you, when it's convenient, you pick a wrong thing and then label it as a preference. Where's the integrity in that?

 

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

And you repeat yourself again....."Fantasy in their head" are thoughts. Taking it a big step forward is porn (in marriage). Big difference. Someone, though not I, is probably thinking about shaking the living daylights out of you right now. But actually doing it would be a big step forward.

 

Then cite studies showing that porn has a negative impact on marriage. Where is your proof other than anecdotal stories.

 

Can you do this without insult, arguing semantics, or any other avoidance tactic? What FACTS is your argument based on? What experts/professionals research and findings?

[trust]

Then cite studies showing that porn has a negative impact on marriage. Where is your proof other than anecdotal stories.

 

Can you do this without insult, arguing semantics, or any other avoidance tactic? What FACTS is your argument based on? What experts/professionals research and findings?

 

What insult? Meeting sarcasm with sarcasm? Avoidance tactic? You just used an avoidance tactic on me: Instead of addressing the points I made, you made reference to alleged insults, alleged arguing semantics and alleged avoidance tactics, then put the ball in my court to perform. Are you kidding me? Do you even realize you just did that? Allow me to put the ball back in your court and ask you to be more specific.

 

Some things are obvious. Do you need a study to tell you not to touch the stove when it's hot? I'll give you an excellent study. Jen and her husband. Please read the very first post and continue on. Or would you prefer some study done by some group of people on some other group of people paid for by some unknown possibly prejudiced 3rd party? Let's dodge *your* avoidance tactic and stick to the story at hand.

[trust]

So, after all the talking and counseling that have had minimal results, what should she do -- suffer through a sexless marriage with no communication that appears to be a dead end, or move on to a better life?

 

Porn and marriage do not mix. She didn't say her marriage was sexless and she didn't say that their was no communication. It's a dead end if she wants it to be a dead end. Recommending that a woman (in a case where there is hope, which she expressed) on a forum, as vulnerable and desperate as she is, without knowing all the details, to cut and run in her marriage, is premature and a bit reckless. Minimal results, are results nonetheless. Keep going to an MC. How seriously they took their vows and their "love" will be directly proportional to the amount of effort they put in to keeping things together.