Jersey Shortie Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 And whether you think it is ridiculous or not that a woman should feel bad about herself over the porn, it isn't fair to continue a relationship knowing this is the outcome and act utterly selfish towards someone else's feelings. Especially not someone you claim to love. If porn is nothing more than just some flippant past time that men indulge in every so often for a quick release, it shouldn't be so difficult to give it up then if it is causing some grief to someone you love. I think many men are far more reliant on the porn then they care to admit. I've said all this before many times. If porn is not important to men, and men don't identify with porn, then why do so many men still feel the need to use it? So, you do not see bitterness as hostility? Just flipped through my dictionary and found this definition of bitterness: A feeling of deep and bitter anger and ill-will. Other meanings of Bitter: very difficult to accept or bear marked by strong resentment or cynicism biting: causing a sharply painful or stinging sensation I don't see bitterness and hostility as the same thing. I am bitter about men when it comes to porn. I don't deny it. I wish I wasn't to be honest but that is how I feel. That doesn't mean I wish ill-will on men or want them to hurt. I don't. I just wish men would make the leep to try and understand. Hostility would mean that I wanted to harm men and I don't. I am not so much bitter and angry as I am bitter and sad. There is a huge distinction. Bitter and hostile are not the same things. Seems as though you can't own your own feelings. It's seems that you are attempting to twist the meaning of my feelings to best support your own argument. if anything, bitterness sounds like an extreme form of hostility worth addressing within yourself so you can be happy. One could easily say that hostility is an extreme form of bitterness. Personally, from definition, I consider 'hostility" much more extreme them "bitter", if you really want to compare the two.
michelangelo Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 He is. But that isn't what I addressed in many of my points. Many men lie and hide the porn, not only those who have deeper issues such as my husband. Why do so many men feel this is okay? Men and woman lie about things all the time to spare other's feelings or they feel guilty for having sexual feelings (early conditioning). It is flawed reasoning. We all should be open about our lives with our spouses/sig others. My wife tries to tell me she doesn't use the vibrator I got her, acts annoyed that I hint that she actually likes it. She insists it sits in the drawer unused. I tested this nonsense out by turning one of the batteries around. There were fresh batteries in it within days. I write this just to point out that sexual needs and desires of both genders is wrapped up in the guilt and confusion of early lessons people learn. Being open about wants and desires is pretty threatening apparently. so rather than be open about it, a lot of men and women go into deep cover about it.
Jennifer26 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Men and woman lie about things all the time to spare other's feelings or they feel guilty for having sexual feelings (early conditioning). It is flawed reasoning. We all should be open about our lives with our spouses/sig others. My wife tries to tell me she doesn't use the vibrator I got her, acts annoyed that I hint that she actually likes it. She insists it sits in the drawer unused. I tested this nonsense out by turning one of the batteries around. There were fresh batteries in it within days. I write this just to point out that sexual needs and desires of both genders is wrapped up in the guilt and confusion of early lessons people learn. Being open about wants and desires is pretty threatening apparently. so rather than be open about it, a lot of men and women go into deep cover about it. And many people lie to spare themselves getting into trouble, to avoid conflict, etc. etc. It doesn't make it okay. I understand people lie because it is convenient or it might make life easier, or less embarrassing. Again, it doesn't make it okay. Especially if you know you are causing your spouse grief over this behavior. It might be more forgivable if porn has never been an issue and she never asked, and you never told. What about all of the marriages out there where the woman has clearly expressed her opposition to porn? Is it okay to lie then? I guess I think men need to own up to this. Stop blaming women, stop blaming our insecurity, stop saying it is just how you're biologically wired. Come right out and say you're not willing to give up porn. And if she doesn't like it? Well, then she has a decision to make. But at least you're being honest and giving her the right tools to make that decision. Instead of being deceptive and placating her. Your wife should not be lying over the vibrator either. I have one as well, and my husband was less than thrilled when I told him about it. But I never hid it, or lied about it. When he was upset about my having it, I even offered to get rid of it to which he replied was not necessary. He never asks me if I've used it, but if he had I would be completely honest. And if he ever asked me to get rid of it I would in a heartbeat.
Jersey Shortie Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I guess I think men need to own up to this. Stop blaming women, stop blaming our insecurity, stop saying it is just how you're biologically wired. Come right out and say you're not willing to give up porn. And if she doesn't like it? Well, then she has a decision to make. But at least you're being honest and giving her the right tools to make that decision. Instead of being deceptive and placating her. Well said.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I have one as well, and my husband was less than thrilled when I told him about it. But I never hid it, or lied about it. When he was upset about my having it, I even offered to get rid of it to which he replied was not necessary. He never asks me if I've used it, but if he had I would be completely honest. So your husband dealt with your vibrator and his discomfort over your having it by : 1). Realizing its use was more about you than him and 2). Never again bringing it up or asking if you've used it Seems like a mature approach that combines both respect for your privacy and faith in the strength of your relationship, sexual and otherwise. Why don't women look at porn the same way? Mr. Lucky
JerseyShortie Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Yeah, pretending something isn't there when it really is, is always healthy. Plus, vibs and porn aren't exactly the same thing. *hugs*
Mr. Lucky Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I guess I think men need to own up to this. Stop blaming women, stop blaming our insecurity, stop saying it is just how you're biologically wired. Come right out and say you're not willing to give up porn. And if she doesn't like it? Well, then she has a decision to make. But at least you're being honest and giving her the right tools to make that decision. Instead of being deceptive and placating her. I think you've touched on an important point and, for me, it's simply this: "Even though I'm married to you, you don't get to dictate (within certain limits) the terms of my fantasies or all aspects of my sexuality. I'm going to share almost all of my life with you, but there's a part of me that's just for me. I'll be loving, faithful, committed and passionate with you but there may at times be other things going on in my head. And, as my partner, I'm going to give you the same respect, privacy and space. Also, if either of us abuse any aspect of this, all bets are off." As a man, that's how I feel... Mr. Lucky
Sum1'sGot2RepThe530 Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I think you've touched on an important point and, for me, it's simply this: "Even though I'm married to you, you don't get to dictate (within certain limits) the terms of my fantasies or all aspects of my sexuality. I'm going to share almost all of my life with you, but there's a part of me that's just for me. I'll be loving, faithful, committed and passionate with you but there may at times be other things going on in my head. And, as my partner, I'm going to give you the same respect, privacy and space. Also, if either of us abuse any aspect of this, all bets are off." As a man, that's how I feel... Mr. Lucky Bingo! Well said.
Ally Boo Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I've never really understood the problem with porn. I mean, a guy fantasized about other women and watched porn before getting involved or married...why take that away from him now? Unless it is illegal or flat out immoral, I don't get it. It just seems like there are bigger battles worth fighting.
Sum1'sGot2RepThe530 Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 It just seems like there are bigger battles worth fighting. Exactly. Jersey can argue on this thread until she's blue in the face (which may actually happen, at the rate she's going), but what's it going to get her? A bunch of time wasted, I think.
luvstarved Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I think there are two legitimate beefs women have with porn. I don't think the disrespect of the women in porn is one of them. That may be a beef with the porn industry but not the observer...as far as I can tell, the gist for men is strictly a titillating visual to facilitate masturbation. But, the legitimate gripes to me are 1) dishonesty and failure to disclose level of interest in porn. Porn is in the sex realm so people are not necessarily going to talk about it in the beginning even though they aren't ashamed of it...no more than they would talk about their sex life in general...but when things start to get serious both sides should be honest about how they feel about it. I would be offended if I told a guy on the first date that I hated horror movies and hunting, and wanting to "impress" me he agreed, then I later found out that those were two of his favorite things...and I was expected to "tolerate" it. Conversely, if I was a guy and said I enjoyed watching a little porn now and again, and the woman said she was ok with it, wanting to preserve the relationship, I would be ticked if later she said, well we're married now, you're not supposed to like it NOW. I find excessive porn use a turn off, just as I would any other number of characteristics that just don't appeal to me, and I would be upset to find that someone had intentionally misrepresented themselves. 2) Despite what so many guys have said here, for some men, porn over time becomes the primary source of sexual satisfaction. This is unfair to their partner, and when porn is being used as a substitute rather than a supplement, I think a woman has a legitimate gripe. Beyond this, I agree that people should have a part of themselves to be free...but they should keep it to themselves unless it is mutually enjoyable and not allow it to interfere with a healthy sex relationship with their SO.
Jennifer26 Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 I think you've touched on an important point and, for me, it's simply this: "Even though I'm married to you, you don't get to dictate (within certain limits) the terms of my fantasies or all aspects of my sexuality. I'm going to share almost all of my life with you, but there's a part of me that's just for me. I'll be loving, faithful, committed and passionate with you but there may at times be other things going on in my head. And, as my partner, I'm going to give you the same respect, privacy and space. Also, if either of us abuse any aspect of this, all bets are off." As a man, that's how I feel... Mr. LuckySo then, when the conversation comes up about porn, you should be clear that it is something you will do sometimes and leave it at that. It isn't about her dictating your fantasies. If she morally, or for any other reason objects to porn and does not want to be with a partner who must have porn - it is wrong to not disclose this to her before you choose to marry this woman. She has every much right to choose if you're the right partner for her and if your viewpoints coincide as you do to view porn. Lying to her and telling her you don't look at porn is wrong. She is basing her decision on whether or not to be with you in the long run on false information. No one is saying you can't have your porn. You can have it all you want. You can even find and marry a woman out there who enjoys porn too, because there are some out there. What is wrong however, is to marry someone you know is not okay with it, never will be, and to lie about it in order to gain what you want (which is the wife, and the porn), and it is selfish no matter which way you slice it.
JerseyShortie Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Exactly. Jersey can argue on this thread until she's blue in the face (which may actually happen, at the rate she's going), but what's it going to get her? A bunch of time wasted, I think. I was hoping it would open the eyes of some men that could try and understand where the women that struggle with porn are coming from. But I guess that is hoping for more then I should expect anymore. I just find it disheartening how important porn is to so many men.
kbah Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Mr. Lucky, Your response to the family BBQ porn poster is completely subjective to YOUR opinion of excess. To the OP, the amount her husband is looking may be excessive. Just because it is now considered an excessive amount (to you) the man is in the wrong. To some people, looking a few times a week is excessive, especially when they are with a woman who will have the real thing everyday! It's not just about insecurity on her part. It's a negelct of her feelings and the expectations between the man and woman are not aligned. It all depends on the person, their expectations, and level of tolerance.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Mr. Lucky, Your response to the family BBQ porn poster is completely subjective to YOUR opinion of excess. To the OP, the amount her husband is looking may be excessive. Just because it is now considered an excessive amount (to you) the man is in the wrong. To some people, looking a few times a week is excessive, especially when they are with a woman who will have the real thing everyday! It's not just about insecurity on her part. It's a negelct of her feelings and the expectations between the man and woman are not aligned. It all depends on the person, their expectations, and level of tolerance. Yep, your point is valid. As always, it comes back to communication and agreement as to what those expectations are to be. In defense of the male species, women are cryptic, mysterious and occasionally unfathomable to us in their thinking. So we learn conflict avoidance ("Yes, dear") as a strategy to survive in a relationship. However, these threads are proof that, in the instance of porn, that approach can come back to haunt you ... Mr. Lucky
annieo Posted July 1, 2008 Posted July 1, 2008 Yep, your point is valid. As always, it comes back to communication and agreement as to what those expectations are to be. In defense of the male species, women are cryptic, mysterious and occasionally unfathomable to us in their thinking. So we learn conflict avoidance ("Yes, dear") as a strategy to survive in a relationship. However, these threads are proof that, in the instance of porn, that approach can come back to haunt you ... Mr. Lucky Normally, I agree with your posts, but this one, nope. "women are cryptic, mysterious and occasionally unfathomable" ??? That is such a worn out old stereotype, and a lame excuse for dishonesty. When a man says, "Yes, dear" when he doesn't mean it, isn't HE being cryptic? I've got to decode whether or not that "Yes, dear" means actually yes, or if it means, "I don't want to deal with you right now", or "I'm not really listening to you" or worse, "This is an area where you have no right to know my true feelings. You don't own me" The last response is indicative of someone who is only partially committed to the relationship, and kind of paranoid IMO. I think the problem is quite the opposite. I think women are usually pretty good at communicating their feelings, but many men feel this need to keep large parts of themselves secret, so they won't feel like they're being "controlled" by their woman. I'm cool with porn use (as long as it doesn't mean that I turn into sexual second best), but I am not cool with being lied to to shut me up. And then being blamed as the reason for the lying.
kbah Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 Right on Annieo- Mr. Lucky appears to value communication in a relationship with his first statement, yet then retracts by generalizing women and then admitting to being a passive communicator. People should just start TALKING and LISTENING to each other. Yes, it is hard work at first and will take time and (gasp) effort at first, but it definitely pays off in the end. Once all the issues are layed out, less focus will need to be placed on this and the two people can begin living these promises and agreements.
mental_traveller Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 What is it with men and porn and their consistent dedication to it? Why don't men "just get over it" and put the porn down for a change. Because they enjoy porn and have healthy levels of testosterone? If it wasn't for that urge, no man would ever look at you twice, let alone sleep with you or enter into a relationship with you.
Sum1'sGot2RepThe530 Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 I was hoping it would open the eyes of some men that could try and understand where the women that struggle with porn are coming from. But I guess that is hoping for more then I should expect anymore. I just find it disheartening how important porn is to so many men. Well, I can't speak for all men, but I understand your "struggle." It's not like anything's going to change though.
demrea Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 ..... Porn isn't about what women want from men. It's easier for men to accept porn because porn is about all the ways men wished women were. All the ways men obviously find real women lacking and need to have this whole world where they can have exactly the kind of woman they really want why they settle for their "real life" women. So yes, porn isn't bad for men. Porn isn't calling men names and degrading them. Porn is great for men. All those men out there, fathers, brothers, husbands, lawyers, doctors, who have loving women in their life and it's never enough for men. Because at the end of the day, men need porn. .... ok, you are right. men like porn, selfish or not, its not going away. you can choose a lonely angry life if you want, or you can accept the facts of life. frankly, you sound like someone who is physically unattractive and you know it and wish the hot horny women in porn would stop reminding you that you got ugly dna code.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 Normally, I agree with your posts, but this one, nope. "women are cryptic, mysterious and occasionally unfathomable" ??? That is such a worn out old stereotype, and a lame excuse for dishonesty. Annieo, you left out "to us" in your quote. And while I was being somewhat facetious, is it a surprise to you that men often have trouble figuring why women do and think what they do? And vice versa? I would think that 2000 years of literature, art, music and movies on the subject would be testimony enough. You'll also note that I pointed out that, at least in this instance, that kind of conflict avoidance - "tell them what they want to hear and deal with the fallout later" - isn't a successful strategy. Not that that stops us guys from trying it ... Mr. Lucky
Mr. Lucky Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 Right on Annieo- Mr. Lucky appears to value communication in a relationship with his first statement, yet then retracts by generalizing women and then admitting to being a passive communicator. My mistake if I came across that way. Unlike Jersey, no one has appointed me as the spokesperson for all the downtrodden members (pun intended!) of my gender... Mr. Lucky
JerseyShortie Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 Because they enjoy porn and have healthy levels of testosterone? If it wasn't for that urge, no man would ever look at you twice, let alone sleep with you or enter into a relationship with you. Well, I can't speak for all men, but I understand your "struggle." It's not like anything's going to change though ok, you are right. men like porn, selfish or not, its not going away. you can choose a lonely angry life if you want, or you can accept the facts of life frankly, you sound like someone who is physically unattractive and you know it and wish the hot horny women in porn would stop reminding you that you got ugly dna code. Wow, to all three of those mean-spirited comments. Gee, I wonder why I think men are sometimes selfish and insensitive. Unlike Jersey, no one has appointed me as the spokesperson for all the downtrodden members (pun intended!) of my gender... I must be more popular. [/FONT][/COLOR]
annieo Posted July 2, 2008 Posted July 2, 2008 Annieo, you left out "to us" in your quote. And while I was being somewhat facetious, is it a surprise to you that men often have trouble figuring why women do and think what they do? And vice versa? I would think that 2000 years of literature, art, music and movies on the subject would be testimony enough. You'll also note that I pointed out that, at least in this instance, that kind of conflict avoidance - "tell them what they want to hear and deal with the fallout later" - isn't a successful strategy. Not that that stops us guys from trying it ... Mr. Lucky OK, OK, I didn't include all of your quote. A little unconscious creative editing. Forgive me, Mr. L, I really enjoy reading your sparkling, self-deprecating perspective. You make me giggle. But WHY are we so unfathomable? I tend to be very clear about what's going on inside my head (to everyone, not only my h). I don't sit around moping or wait for him to figure out what my problem is. If there's an issue, I wait until we're alone and can talk, and then I let him know, as tactfully as possible (unless he's done something really ****ty, which happened once in our relationship. Then, the gloves come off:mad:) I really try to see his side and I always have an awareness of the fact that I might be in the wrong. I know I can't speak for all women, but I will go out on a limb and say that the pouting act (or the I'm always right act) is limited to younger women, or women who are so massively immature or insecure that they are afraid to speak their minds. Or don't know their minds. Is this most of us? Since I'm the only woman I've ever had a close relationship with, I can't speak with any experience on this one. I have great female friends, who are forthright, kind, intelligent, but who knows what little psychodramas go on behind the closed front door. Sort of off topic, but does relate to how we can communicate to each other when we don't agree.
demrea Posted July 3, 2008 Posted July 3, 2008 Wow, to all three of those mean-spirited comments. Gee, I wonder why I think men are sometimes selfish and insensitive. well yes you would find men selfish and insensitive. and many of us are, get over it or dont, your choice. i wonder how you became so enlightened that you have talked your self out of happiness? finally, i have heard some references to "real women" .. what is that all about? the women in porn arent real? if they are willing to stretch their sexual boundries, than it must be possible for all women (and men) to do so. why can they and "real" women cant? frankly, i think there is no such thing as "real" women, only people. people are all unique, stop thinking you are so special and the rest of us are denegrates.
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