Why not tell the wife?

[NewSunrise]

Or you've made a judgment or assumption?

Neither. But you assumed and judged that I did.

 

Based on your replies, you walked away from a "dead end" affair much in the same way as your XMM. Your XMM as many MM/MW do not walk away from the M. They, like your XMM took a "detour" from their M.

 

When I posed this reply...

I suspect a lot of OWs will now have to do some "soul searching"...

You replied...

Not me. I already know what I'd want.

Your decision to walk away did require soul searching. By that process alone, you defined or rather more specifically "redefined" who you are.

[mopar crazy]

He never discussed his M with me, and I never asked. Everything I heard about it was from other sources - friends, colleagues, family - who recounted incidents they'd witnessed of the abuse, the domestic arrangements or his W's precarious mental health.

 

Nor did he ever lie directly to his W - since they led entirely separate lives, he never had to account for what he did or where he went or who he was with, and so he just never mentioned that there was someone else until we'd decided we wanted to be together. The kids knew beforehand - he's close to them - as did family, friends, colleagues (we were never a secret). Needless to say, when he told his W she didn't believe him.

 

Has he ever lied to me about anything? Certainly nothing I'm aware of. He may well have reconstructed stories about his distant childhood that no one else was around to verify, but they seem consistent with other things I've heard from others so I've had no reason to doubt that he did in fact go to school where he claims he did, or had friends that he claimed to have. On other matters there's been nothing to lie about - he's lived very transparently with me, and me with him.

 

Not sure if that answers your question?

 

Yes, it did.

[luvmy2ns]

But even so, I'm sorry I still don't see where it's the OW's job to patrol the marriage and offer the W the information she might not be looking for and might well (as Old Man said) not even want. What's between them is for them to look out for. Silk Tricks gave some good advice, and I think if married couples followed it there would be far fewer affairs.

 

But I do take your point. I think if I'd found out that he wasn't the man he represented himself as (and I took/take him to be), then I might have told his W in order to give her a heads up. I'm not completely ANTI telling the W, and I've sometimes advocated telling the W in these threads. I just don't think it's something that should be expected from the OW. There are too many reasons why not to tell. And I was really only speaking from the perspective of MY own affair and situation.

 

From what you say, yes - he WILL cheat again. But you are right. It is NOT the OW's "job" to do anything. But if I were an OW who was lied to at the get go (guy hid his marriage until he thought he had me hooked, for example) and then found out about the W, I would dump his lying a55 and absoLUTEly tell the W. If the situation were reversed, I would want the OW to tell me. "Do unto others..." If I were the kind of person who would walk into an A with eyes wide open, though, I don't think I would be the kind of person who would give a flyin' ratt's arse about the W or anyone else besides myself.

[OWoman]

If you, the OW were the BW, would you want to know?

 

If I were the W, I would not be the BW. Betrayal assumes an expectation which is betrayed. Since I have no such demand, no such expectation exists, and thus cannot be betrayed.

[mopar crazy]

From what you say, yes - he WILL cheat again. But you are right. It is NOT the OW's "job" to do anything. But if I were an OW who was lied to at the get go (guy hid his marriage until he thought he had me hooked, for example) and then found out about the W, I would dump his lying a55 and absoLUTEly tell the W. If the situation were reversed, I would want the OW to tell me. "Do unto others..." If I were the kind of person who would walk into an A with eyes wide open, though, I don't think I would be the kind of person who would give a flyin' ratt's arse about the W or anyone else besides myself.

 

I would want to know, but not from the OW directly, unless she wrote me. I wouldn't want to give her the satisfaction of hearing me either a) break down crying , or 2)ripping her head off. I wouldn't want her to hear my reaction to the news. If she wrote me I could react, think about it, and then contact her when I had my emotions under control. When my H and I were talking about R the M during our separation I thought he would have stopped seeing the OW. I was wrong. The second time I contacted her I told her that we were thinking about R the M and if she would PLZ respect that and leave him alone. I told her I knew my H was going to come to her place to work w/ her teenage son practice and I didn't think it was a good idea if we were going to work on the M if they were having contact. She told me that she had found someone else to do it. I told her I understand they work together but that was all it should be. Shortly after that my H calls me and tells me that the OW asked for a ride back to work b/c she needed to take her car to the repair shop. He said he wanted to let me know b4 I heard it from someone else. I ripped his ass hard! Then I hung up on him and called the OW. He kept calling me and telling me not to call her. He was begging me not to call her. I called her at work and when she answered I said "T?" and she just busted out laughing. THAT pissed me off b/c she knew it was me and knew why I was calling. I told her "Didn't I tell you to stay the he!! away from MY H until we decided what we wanted to do w/ our M?" And she hung up on me. I regret calling her. She got the satisfaction of hearing how angry was at her, well both of them. It was like a game to this bitch and I was letting her win. She only cared about herself and she didn't care about my feelings at all. She had no guilt, no shame, nothing.

[Owl]

If I were the W, I would not be the BW. Betrayal assumes an expectation which is betrayed. Since I have no such demand, no such expectation exists, and thus cannot be betrayed.

 

Owoman, I'm familiar with your view on marriage.

 

I want to ask an HONEST question. This isn't an insult or setup...its an honest question. I'm curious about this.

 

How would you feel if your MM FELL IN LOVE with someone else? Today...came to your house and told you that its over between you, that he doesn't love you but he's in love with his wife? Would you feel betrayed? Angry? Hurt? Why or why not?

 

Monogamy isn't just about sex...its also to do with the heart. I can see that you wouldn't be upset if he slept with someone else...but if he fell in love with someone else? Or went back to his wife?

[pelicanpreacher]

I won't know one way or the other about his future life, as we live in separate cities and I have no reason to be in contact with him.

 

I know I did the right thing in ending the affair anyway, I have no qualms or second thoughts on it. I think I know his character pretty well, and I know the toll it took on both of us. For the record he didn't fall in love with me and then start an affair, it was completely the other way round. He was looking for something outside his marriage from the get-go. I'm under no illusions about that. So from that perspective he may cheat again, since things haven't changed any at home.

 

But even so, I'm sorry I still don't see where it's the OW's job to patrol the marriage and offer the W the information she might not be looking for and might well (as Old Man said) not even want. What's between them is for them to look out for. Silk Tricks gave some good advice, and I think if married couples followed it there would be far fewer affairs.

 

But I do take your point. I think if I'd found out that he wasn't the man he represented himself as (and I took/take him to be), then I might have told his W in order to give her a heads up. I'm not completely ANTI telling the W, and I've sometimes advocated telling the W in these threads. I just don't think it's something that should be expected from the OW. There are too many reasons why not to tell. And I was really only speaking from the perspective of MY own affair and situation.

 

If I were the W, I would not be the BW. Betrayal assumes an expectation which is betrayed. Since I have no such demand, no such expectation exists, and thus cannot be betrayed.

 

Expected? NO!

Job? Hell NO!

Warranted? Yes and Hell Yes!

 

We all benefit when the truth is exposed because the liar now has a reason to think twice before he acts when he doesn't know who you know or whether you'll ruin his life should the world know the truth!

[mopar crazy]

Owoman, I'm familiar with your view on marriage.

 

I want to ask an HONEST question. This isn't an insult or setup...its an honest question. I'm curious about this.

 

How would you feel if your MM FELL IN LOVE with someone else? Today...came to your house and told you that its over between you, that he doesn't love you but he's in love with his wife? Would you feel betrayed? Angry? Hurt? Why or why not?

 

Monogamy isn't just about sex...its also to do with the heart. I can see that you wouldn't be upset if he slept with someone else...but if he fell in love with someone else? Or went back to his wife?

Good question Owl. I am curious to what her answer will be.

[silktricks]

but I suppose I'm wondering how a BS can be said to 'deserve' the truth from an OW? The OW owes the W nothing whatever in that respect, and to be quite honest as Owl pointed out, when does all this 'owing' suddenly come in...

 

I would change this somewhat and say more that we all owe it to ourselves to tell the truth. We all deserve the internal harmony that comes from being honest ourselves, and that internal harmony I believe translates directly into a happier, less painful life.

 

I don't think I "deserved" for the OW to tell me anything, or that she "owed" me the truth. She had, after all, never even met me. I do think, though that her life would have been better for herself if she had been honest in her actions with both my husband and me.

[OWoman]

Owoman, I'm familiar with your view on marriage.

 

I want to ask an HONEST question. This isn't an insult or setup...its an honest question. I'm curious about this.

 

How would you feel if your MM FELL IN LOVE with someone else? Today...came to your house and told you that its over between you, that he doesn't love you but he's in love with his wife? Would you feel betrayed? Angry? Hurt? Why or why not?

 

Monogamy isn't just about sex...its also to do with the heart. I can see that you wouldn't be upset if he slept with someone else...but if he fell in love with someone else? Or went back to his wife?

 

Hey Owl, I don't find the question insulting, though I suppose I am curious as to your curiosity...

 

To answer the question: How would I feel? OK, if he said it was his W, I suppose the answer would be "highly skeptical" because what I'm hearing from other sources indicates that his patience / understanding for her manipulation and games has finally run out (the man has the patience of Job!) and he's really putting his foot down very firmly with her and exercising agency and asserting control over the situation in a way that's put her into a state of shock.... But I guess your question is more hypothetical than specific, so: How would I feel if it was "someone else"?

 

Would I feel betrayed? No, of course not. I may well feel hurt - I don't know, it's not a situation I've been in before so can't really predict whether it would be "hurt" or just sadness, as obviously right now I'm still emotionally invested and not at the point myself of leaving... "Hurt" kind of implies a response to injury, and I'm not sure I'd see it as an injury that was done to me. But I'd certainly feel sad, I'd grieve the loss - I may feel devastatingly sad or I may feel numbly sad or I may feel business-like get-on-with-it sad, but sad would definitely feature in some way.

 

Betrayed, no. People change. And I'd certainly understand, given the emotional turmoil of the situation and recent changes, that it was about change and not about me, and I wouldn't take it as a personal rejection.

 

Angry, hmmm - not with him. I suppose if I felt sad enough in a debilitating way I'd feel angry at ME for allowing myself to have gotten into such a pathetic, wussy space where I was moping instead of getting out there and getting on with my life, but that would be because I see myself as strong and coping and if I didn't live up to that because getting soppy had made me vulnerable to moping - well, I'd need to take me in hand and have some stern words with myself to get myself back on track.

 

Another thing that just struck me that I might feel, if he went back to his W, was disappointment. That he'd escaped from the abuse, but chose to return to it. Like when you rescue a beautiful moth from a spider's web, untangle the delicate wings, and set it free - and it flies straight back in and gets tangled beyond redemption? Or a whale beaches, and you get it back out to sea - only to have it turn around and beach, once more? That kind of disappointed.

 

OK, now I'm curious about why you were curious - what did you expect me to say?

[NewSunrise]

If I were the W, I would not be the BW. Betrayal assumes an expectation which is betrayed. Since I have no such demand, no such expectation exists, and thus cannot be betrayed.

That explains why you are where you are.

[OWoman]

That explains why you are where you are.

 

Meaning...?

[silktricks]

Would I feel betrayed? No, of course not. I may well feel hurt - I don't know, it's not a situation I've been in before so can't really predict whether it would be "hurt" or just sadness, as obviously right now I'm still emotionally invested and not at the point myself of leaving... "Hurt" kind of implies a response to injury, and I'm not sure I'd see it as an injury that was done to me. But I'd certainly feel sad, I'd grieve the loss - I may feel devastatingly sad or I may feel numbly sad or I may feel business-like get-on-with-it sad, but sad would definitely feature in some way.

 

Betrayed, no. People change. And I'd certainly understand, given the emotional turmoil of the situation and recent changes, that it was about change and not about me, and I wouldn't take it as a personal rejection.

 

What if the man you love has been lying to you, day in and day out for a long time - say years? Would you feel betrayal - not at his falling out of love with you and falling in love with someone else - but rather at the fact that he didn't tell you the truth.

 

To be honest, I would not have felt the measure of betrayal had my husband left me because he fell in love with someone else, but what happened in my instance was that I had left him. He spent a year wooing me back, while at the same time having an "emotional affair" with someone else. The betrayal I felt was because of the lies. The other way, I would have felt extremely sad, but probably not betrayed.

[Owl]

I was curious because your posts often seem to relate to monogamy and cheating in terms of sex, and not often from an emotional viewpoint. I was curious if you'd thought about this or had been through something like this yet.

 

I can see why you'd not be hurt or upset about him being with someone else physically, but that does not always apply to how you'd feel if he gave himself to someone EMOTIONALLY instead.

 

Its interesting that you feel that you MIGHT be hurt, but you've apparently not experienced something like this yet.

[OWoman]

What if the man you love has been lying to you, day in and day out for a long time - say years? Would you feel betrayal - not at his falling out of love with you and falling in love with someone else - but rather at the fact that he didn't tell you the truth.

 

To be honest, I would not have felt the measure of betrayal had my husband left me because he fell in love with someone else, but what happened in my instance was that I had left him. He spent a year wooing me back, while at the same time having an "emotional affair" with someone else. The betrayal I felt was because of the lies. The other way, I would have felt extremely sad, but probably not betrayed.

 

Silk, what you sketch makes sense to me. Honesty has been a cornerstone of our R (yes, I know that will hit some people's buttons but it is so) and were that to be compromised it would definitely upset me. I suppose if it were a sudden onset thing - for example, in response to falling in love with another - it would upset me more as I'd likely be in a different space on that; were it a gradual onset thing, it would be indicative of a growing distance between us, an indictment of the R for which I'd be at least as responsible IMO and so while I'd be upset, I'd feel that the "betrayal" had been by both of us of our ideals, rather than by one party of the other.

 

I guess what would really upset me about the sudden onset scenario would be not the "betrayal" but the implication that he felt he couldn't be honest with me. That I'd lost my identity and blurred into some generic "wife" role where he lapsed into patterns forged at the hands of his W. I would take the implied insult - that he could not distinguish emotionally between me and a psychotic, hardened abuser - very badly because abuse is something I feel INCREDIBLY strongly about and if there was any hint that I was being accused of that myself... well, let's just say I'd be less than open to the suggestion

[silktricks]

were it a gradual onset thing, it would be indicative of a growing distance between us, an indictment of the R for which I'd be at least as responsible IMO and so while I'd be upset, I'd feel that the "betrayal" had been by both of us of our ideals, rather than by one party of the other.

 

This makes sense - and certainly resonates with me on many levels. The only problem I have is the "gradual onset thing" part. That is pretty difficult to define, if not impossible. The person doing the lying knows they are lying but the person being lied to doesn't usually - hence the lying . It is an indictment of the relationship, without a doubt, but the betrayal is IMO still primarily at the hands of the liar. The person being lied to has probably (not positively, but probably) been a participant in the downhill slope of the relationship, but as for betrayal? I dunno - maybe I'm just mincing words, and we're really saying the same thing...

[OWoman]

Its interesting that you feel that you MIGHT be hurt, but you've apparently not experienced something like this yet.

 

I can't predict, but I guess I don't see it as a personal wounding, more something bad that happens.

 

I've lived through many "betrayals" in my life, mostly in a work or work-related context, and while several have left me bitterly disappointed I've always considered the structural context behind their actions. I've lost vast amounts of respect for people I'd considered to have integrity - because to me, personal risk when principles are at stake is a no-brainer and people who are prepared to swallow their principles when faced with risk are people whose values are contingent and opportunistic, IMO - and I've learned now very weak people can be behind the trappings of authority and positional power. But I've never taken their failings as a personal indictment and I've learned to shrug and accept that not everyone shares my priorities.

[NewSunrise]

Hey Owl, I don't find the question insulting, though I suppose I am curious as to your curiosity...

 

To answer the question: How would I feel? OK, if he said it was his W, I suppose the answer would be "highly skeptical" because what I'm hearing from other sources indicates that his patience / understanding for her manipulation and games has finally run out (the man has the patience of Job!) and he's really putting his foot down very firmly with her and exercising agency and asserting control over the situation in a way that's put her into a state of shock.... But I guess your question is more hypothetical than specific, so: How would I feel if it was "someone else"?

 

Would I feel betrayed? No, of course not. I may well feel hurt - I don't know, it's not a situation I've been in before so can't really predict whether it would be "hurt" or just sadness, as obviously right now I'm still emotionally invested and not at the point myself of leaving... "Hurt" kind of implies a response to injury, and I'm not sure I'd see it as an injury that was done to me. But I'd certainly feel sad, I'd grieve the loss - I may feel devastatingly sad or I may feel numbly sad or I may feel business-like get-on-with-it sad, but sad would definitely feature in some way.

 

Betrayed, no. People change. And I'd certainly understand, given the emotional turmoil of the situation and recent changes, that it was about change and not about me, and I wouldn't take it as a personal rejection.

 

Angry, hmmm - not with him. I suppose if I felt sad enough in a debilitating way I'd feel angry at ME for allowing myself to have gotten into such a pathetic, wussy space where I was moping instead of getting out there and getting on with my life, but that would be because I see myself as strong and coping and if I didn't live up to that because getting soppy had made me vulnerable to moping - well, I'd need to take me in hand and have some stern words with myself to get myself back on track.

 

Another thing that just struck me that I might feel, if he went back to his W, was disappointment. That he'd escaped from the abuse, but chose to return to it. Like when you rescue a beautiful moth from a spider's web, untangle the delicate wings, and set it free - and it flies straight back in and gets tangled beyond redemption? Or a whale beaches, and you get it back out to sea - only to have it turn around and beach, once more? That kind of disappointed.

 

OK, now I'm curious about why you were curious - what did you expect me to say?

This post is the most transparency I've seen from and of you OWoman.

 

Owl presented you what I think was an awesome, however hypothetically viewed by you, that forced you to "think" deep. This is where the real you surfaced. You were very careful in your analysis of the question, and more so in how you answered them. And yet doubtful oncer you've answered it. Your wishy washy answer between "yes, maybe, maybe no to not, definitely not, but then again sorta maybe then to I don't knows" responses to different scenarios.

Would I feel betrayed? No, of course not. I may well feel hurt - I don't know, it's not a situation I've been in before so can't really predict whether it would be "hurt" or just sadness, as obviously right now I'm still emotionally invested and not at the point myself of leaving...

 

Betrayed, no. People change. And I'd certainly understand, given the emotional turmoil of the situation and recent changes, that it was about change and not about me, and I wouldn't take it as a personal rejection.

 

Angry, hmmm - not with him.

But you go on to say...

I suppose if I felt sad enough in a debilitating way I'd feel angry at ME for allowing myself to have gotten into such a pathetic, wussy space where I was moping instead of getting out there and getting on with my life, but that would be because I see myself as strong and coping and if I didn't live up to that because getting soppy had made me vulnerable to moping - well, I'd need to take me in hand and have some stern words with myself to get myself back on track.

 

I see a woman who appears to be very strong on the surface who also wants people to see her as that. I see a woman who perhaps lived long and enough to have plenty of stories to share to any willing and interested ears. I see a woman who is obviously strong minded and willed. I see a woman who has done well for herself. But I also a woman who is insecure and to deflect such insecurity puts up an "emotional guard" or wall as a defense mechanism. Perhaps other layers she wishes or prefers not to bring up. I see a woman who is indiffent towards others and their circumstances and only being more comfortable with hers to contend with when it hits. This is probably what toughens your position in most of your posts in relation to your A. This is what I meant when I replied, "this explains why you are where you are".

 

OWL replied to you with this...

Its interesting that you feel that you MIGHT be hurt, but you've apparently not experienced something like this yet.

This explains it all.

 

You haven't quite experienced what TRUE betrayal, have you? Perhaps you have. But perhaps of your strong willed position you didn't allow yourself to experience it which comes down to the type of coping mechanism you've built for yourself in order to survive and maintain a sense of "order" in your life. There's nothing wrong with this. Natural human behavior. Everyone has different coping skills. But your "toughness" persona you consistently demonstrated on LS pretty much decided it for you. But it's that type of toughness that sometimes hardens a person's heart. It doesn't allow one to look beyond others except their own. They must experience betrayal or any form of hardship for the heart to feel empathy.

 

I don't know what life experiences you've encountered prior to your A. But, we are a sum product of our past. If we want to know the real truth about ourselves, all we have to do is dig into our family dynamics, our interpersonal relationships with each other. It is our future predictor of what we become.

 

Many of us have painful pasts, some more extreme than others. Problem is, most prefer to bury their pasts for good. But as the story goes, our past soon catches up. Our past becomes the basis for which we now must contend with in our adult life in order to bring some understanding and clarification of who we are and why we are where we are today.

[Owl]

I actually think there's a lot to think about in New Sunrise's post. I was thinking similar things about coping mechanisms as well.

[NewSunrise]

I can't predict, but I guess I don't see it as a personal wounding, more something bad that happens.

 

I've lived through many "betrayals" in my life, mostly in a work or work-related context, and while several have left me bitterly disappointed I've always considered the structural context behind their actions. I've lost vast amounts of respect for people I'd considered to have integrity - because to me, personal risk when principles are at stake is a no-brainer and people who are prepared to swallow their principles when faced with risk are people whose values are contingent and opportunistic, IMO - and I've learned now very weak people can be behind the trappings of authority and positional power. But I've never taken their failings as a personal indictment and I've learned to shrug and accept that not everyone shares my priorities.

I didn't read this prior to my post.

 

So you have experienced betrayal. Unfortunately and sadly, it hardened you to the point of feeling better than others.

 

Still a lot of double talks filled with hypocrisy.

 

OWL, twice_shy, don't even bother....

[Owl]

NS, one thing to consider...there's no point of accusing someone of hypocrisy or something similar if you want to be able to post on a forum with them.

 

I don't always agree with someone's mindset or viewpoint here...but I'll typically not use terms like that so that I avoid alienating a portion of the 'LS populace'.

 

Just a suggestion...obviously, I'm not the "post police".

[NewSunrise]

NS, one thing to consider...there's no point of accusing someone of hypocrisy or something similar if you want to be able to post on a forum with them.

 

I don't always agree with someone's mindset or viewpoint here...but I'll typically not use terms like that so that I avoid alienating a portion of the 'LS populace'.

 

Just a suggestion...obviously, I'm not the "post police".

 

You were to quick to post a reply before I had a chance to revise it.

[Lookingforward]

I didn't read this prior to my post.

 

So you have experienced betrayal. Unfortunately and sadly, it hardened you to the point of feeling better than others.

 

Still a lot of double talks filled with hypocrisy.

 

OWL, twice_shy, don't even bother....

 

Just curious, but why are some posts taken at 'face value' and others are picked apart ??

 

Not like you are really in a position to KNOW, so why ? A forum is for people to post their opinions, advice and experiences as they relate to them, not to fill someone else's need to dissect it......

[NewSunrise]

Just curious, but why are some posts taken at 'face value' and others are picked apart ??

 

Not like you are really in a position to KNOW, so why ? A forum is for people to post their opinions as they relate to them, not to fill someone else's need to have it dissected......

That's what they are...opinions. How they are perceived by each reader varies, much in the same way as how everyone perceives OW vs. BW.

 

This category as Infidelity naturally will always ignite a lot of nerves from all angles. And LS is one forum that brings these touchy subjects to the forefrunt.

[Lookingforward]

That's what they are...opinions. How they are perceived by each reader varies, much in the same way as how everyone perceives OW vs. BW.

 

This category as Infidelity naturally will always ignite a lot of nerves from all angles. And LS is one forum that brings these touchy subjects to the forefrunt.

 

actually this is posted in the OW/OM category