OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Owoman...I have to say, I have to give you credit for probably the most offensive bit of horsecrap I've heard from you. Owl you seem to have missed two key bits from my post: IME = in MY experience. You may or may not find my experience offensive - that's your call. But it remains MY experience. "most" is just that - most. More than many, less than all. Including some very dear friends of mine. I'm not saying I don't understand their motivation for doing so - "retail therapy" does work for some people when they find themselves in stressful situations - and they certainly did want to exact financial revenge on their CS in the D settlement. I'm sorry if you find that offensive but it doesn't change that that is my experience.
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 You've got to stop watching those "Hollywood" style shows portraying everyone's life in the USA as a land of milk and honey! I thought my comment stated clearly that it referred to MY experience, rather than guessing what life might be like in some foreign country? I guess not clearly enough... And for the record, I don't do Hollywood if I can help it at all. I prefer low budget European art house films, or local cinema. Sorry to disappoint - I'm sure Hollywood is a major export, albeit not to me.
mopar crazy Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 xOW hat on... I didn't tell his long term, live-in GF we were having an A b/c I honestly didn't want to risk loosing him. If I ran and told her I would have felt like a "tattle tale" and he probably would have stopped seeing me. But, he did tell me he told her about me. Whether he did or not I don't know. We just had an intimate moment and as we laid in each others arms talking he told me that his GF knew about me. I asked him what she said but I can't remember what he said. I wish I could remember. If he was telling the truth she still ended up M him. She became pg shortly after it ended between us and he thought it was best to M her. They had another child shortly after that and then they D. I think their M lasted about 2 years. He told me the M ended b/c she didn't treat him right and she belittled him all the time. I wouldn't doubt if he cheated on her but I don't know that either. He was a man whore. He loved the ladies. And ya think that would have been a big turn off for me but it wasn't.
luvmy2ns Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 I thought my comment stated clearly that it referred to MY experience, rather than guessing what life might be like in some foreign country? I guess not clearly enough... And for the record, I don't do Hollywood if I can help it at all. I prefer low budget European art house films, or local cinema. Sorry to disappoint - I'm sure Hollywood is a major export, albeit not to me. Keep in mind, Owl, that the experiences of an OW are those as told from the mouth of a lying MM (present MM excepted).
Lookingforward Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Keep in mind, Owl, that the experiences of an OW are those as told from the mouth of a lying MM (present MM excepted). You don't think Ows are smart and observant enough to see what goes on in the world around them, that all their 'experiences' are only those they gain through an A ?
Owl Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Low budget European films are exactly that. Shot from a European viewpoint...about America...which they weren't funded enough to truly research the subject to begin with. So the viewpoint of the film is based on the message that the makers wanted to portray...which is often NOT reality. Reality usually isn't nearly as entertaining. If you want to bash America...come live here a while, see what it REALLY looks like, then you'll be able to have an INFORMED opinion. I've travelled all over the world. I've been a LOT of places. Interestingly enough, I've learned that nationality matters very little in reality. People are just that...people. No nation makes its people any more OR less noble. Different cultures still center around predominately the same values. I have a lot of respect for the people I've met in all the different places I've been. I may disagree with a GOVERNMENT...but I've learned to respect all kinds of different cultures.
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Keep in mind, Owl, that the experiences of an OW are those as told from the mouth of a lying MM (present MM excepted). luv, fwiw my experiences had NOTHING to do with MMs of any description. I was referring to Ms I've observed over the years - many, if not most, of which had no "cheating" involved, but ground to a halt for other reasons (usually one party outgrowing the other - whichever way round). It was a general comment as a general response to an earlier general comment about Ws USUALLY being the ones to sacrifice ITO career outcomes. And your remark seems to imply that OWs are blind, deaf and mute and incapable of experiencing the world directly, relying on MMs (especially the lying variety) to mediate the world for them. Interesting notion...
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Low budget European films are exactly that. Shot from a European viewpoint...about America... About America??? Owl, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I really don't watch films about America - whether made by Americans or anyone else! Most European films are made about subject matter that has absolutely nothing to do with America. What is this obsession with America? I hate to break the news, but the rest of the world really doesn't sit around and think about America - most of the time we forget it even exists!
luvmy2ns Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 And your remark seems to imply that OWs are blind, deaf and mute and incapable of experiencing the world directly, relying on MMs (especially the lying variety) to mediate the world for them. Interesting notion... Actually, it implies that they are often willing to listen to and believe the words of lying liars. lol What a sad lot of marriages you've been exposed to. I've known women like that - and men like that. But most marriages of the folks I've personally known don't involve that kind of kindergarten game playing.
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Forgot this bit: Interestingly enough, I've learned that nationality matters very little in reality. People are just that...people. No nation makes its people any more OR less noble. Different cultures still center around predominately the same values. I have a lot of respect for the people I've met in all the different places I've been. I may disagree with a GOVERNMENT...but I've learned to respect all kinds of different cultures. I agree with you Owl for the main - though I do think that values are culturally relative, as I've noticed within my own country. But the same way that I don't think more or less of a Muslim woman because she wears hijab, I expect a Hassid to relate to me as a fellow professional in the workplace and not to address his remarks to my 2IC who happens to be male while looking through me as if I wasn't there.
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Actually, it implies that they are often willing to listen to and believe the words of lying liars. lol Ha! Some people are just wayyyyy too trusting! Personally, I don't believe ANYBODY on ANYTHING until I've verified it from several sources and made my own judgment call. You can tell me it's raining and I'll still stick my head outside to check it out for myself - even if I get soaked in the process. My MM is the complete opposite - he believes everybody is fundamentally good, until proven otherwise. We have lots of "I told you so" moments...
luvmy2ns Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Ha! Some people are just wayyyyy too trusting! Personally, I don't believe ANYBODY on ANYTHING until I've verified it from several sources and made my own judgment call. You can tell me it's raining and I'll still stick my head outside to check it out for myself - even if I get soaked in the process. My MM is the complete opposite - he believes everybody is fundamentally good, until proven otherwise. We have lots of "I told you so" moments... You're right. Some are too trusting. As I've noted before, you are an exception. But this is a thread called "Why Not Tell the Wife," not "Why Not Tell OWoman's MM's Wife" (though she already knows anyway).
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 OK, having taken the scenic route, let me get to answer HN's question. I guess Lizzie pretty much said it for me: #1 - The OW is only in the affair for the sex and doesn't want the MM full time. Telling the wife might result in the MM being single and want more than the OW wants to give him. This is my main reason... I am single, financially secured and emotionally independant.. I do NOT need a man full time in my life.. and with a MM.. it's great sex and no commitment, he won't ask or expect anything more. It's the best of both worlds for both of us.. #2 - The OW is afraid that if the wife knows the MM will try to fix the marriage and the OW will be out of the picture. I am not concerned by this... I don't want them to split. I want them to be happy. #3 - The OW feels that she doesn't owe the BW anything because the OW isn't married to the wife and therefor isn't responsible for anything that has to do with the wife. That's my reason no. 2... I haven't promised anything to anyone.. PLUS I do not believe in that crap... it's unreasonable to think that 2 persons can be faithful and NEVER EVER have sex with someone else.. it's insane.. #4 - The OW believes the MM when he tells her how awful the BW is and that if the BW found out she would steal the kids and all his money. Not at all... I do believe what my MMs tell me.. because they have absolutely NO reasons to lie to me.. they know the rules... We talk about their M and the kids.. and the difficulties they have in their M... I advised them to the best of my abilities... Plus, in the current scenario, once we'd progressed beyond part-time short-term A onto staring-into-eyes-meaningfully mode, there were other factors: If we wanted to be together, he needed to end his M. Which meant, he needed to tell his W in as controlled and contained a manner as possible, so that she didn't go postal and off the kids and anyone else in the vicinity.Given the abuse, he needed to take back his power and agency by doing it himself. It wasn't for me to let him wimp out on that, or deprive him of the chance to stand up to her and be heard for once.He'd told the kids. He needed to ensure that there was consistency between what they knew, and what she was told, so that should she question them, the stories all dovetailed. Given her denial and refusal to accept what she was told, if there were any discrepancies she'd find it easier to dismiss and disregard, rather than accepting that it was really really over.There were real risks of physical harm. Being a gentleman , MM did not want me exposed to those. Even though I'm probably a far better streetfighter than he is (I've certainly had more experience, and have far sharper self-defence skills!). But he felt it was HIS problem, not mine, and he needed to own it and handle it.She'd been told by friends. She'd completely rubbished it, and cut them out of her life. The chances of her believing me would have been less than nothing. There was absolutely no possible positive outcome to have been gained from me telling her. And a reasonable risk of violence and harm to others. Plus, it really would have triggered stereotype deluxe - she'd have thought he was just trading her in for a younger, sexier model instead of accepting that he was choosing to terminate an abusive M, and electing to engage in a healthy R, which she may well still do anyway if she does ever accept that there really is "someone else" and that the M is truly over.
Owl Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 What is this obsession with America? I hate to break the news, but the rest of the world really doesn't sit around and think about America - most of the time we forget it even exists! I would agree that this is the case for most people, Owoman. But YOU typically respond at least once a week on this forum with comments about how you're glad you don't live in America because of XXX, or how you're glad your country isn't like America because of YYY.... Numerous people have brought this up to your attention in the past. You've repeatedly made comments about our culture being backwards/repressive/etc... Bluntly, it gets old hearing it. And being as patriotic as ANY veteran, I'm darn sure going to say something about it. If you (and others) cease making comments about my country and my culture, I'll gladly drop the subject.
mopar crazy Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Ha! Some people are just wayyyyy too trusting! Personally, I don't believe ANYBODY on ANYTHING until I've verified it from several sources and made my own judgment call. You can tell me it's raining and I'll still stick my head outside to check it out for myself - even if I get soaked in the process. My MM is the complete opposite - he believes everybody is fundamentally good, until proven otherwise. We have lots of "I told you so" moments... It must suck to live like that. Did you trust your MM w/ everything he said?
silktricks Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 I've noticed you bring up this same subject periodically... I'll tell you why I never told his W. Why would I? It's not my business to be their MC. I had just as much stake as they did individually and as a partnership. If she can't see what's in front of her face, why should I be the one to blow the lid off it? What is the benefit to me? NONE. I also wouldn't want to hurt her so purposely. And finally, I didn't want to end my R. I love my man and if I had told his W, that would have ended our R real quick. I would have betrayed him and I am not a person that makes a habit of betraying others. So HN, I hope that answers your questions. It is the truth, painful as it may be for some to read. But I don't believe in smoke and mirrors so the truth is what you will get from me. My apologies, if the truth offends. GEL This, to me, seems to be the "best" reasoning I've heard. At least it's the one that resonates as truthful - most specifically the part I've bolded. Look at all of the postings from OW/OM who talk about telling the BS. It's either from people who are sick to death of waiting and want it over one way or another, or it's from people who've been thrown over and want revenge.
silktricks Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 I get Herenow's point. I agree with it. I also agree. That said, though, I know that I wouldn't have agreed earlier in recovery. The BS absolutely has a right to know. The WS is the person who should tell, but won't for obvious reasons. The OW would be the 2nd choice, but won't also for obvious reasons. I guess that leaves the point that OB made. Don't be oblivious to what's going on about you. Listen to your gut when it tells you that something may be wrong. Don't take your spouse for granted and be sure you always keep open communication with your spouse.
twice_shy Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 I also wouldn't want to hurt her so purposely. :confused::confused: But it was ok to bone her husband? And finally, I didn't want to end my R. I love my man and if I had told his W, that would have ended our R real quick. I would have betrayed him and I am not a person that makes a habit of betraying others. Lets see, you are an accomplice to this "man" betraying his wife. Whether you believe you are not a party to it or not, you ARE with someone that has no problem with betraying others. Gotta scratch my head on that one.
noforgiveness Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Owoman...I have to say, I have to give you credit for probably the most offensive bit of horsecrap I've heard from you. I normally have a bit of respect for your posts...but absolutely not this one. Wow. Anything further I want to say will definitely result in an infraction, if my comment here hasn't already. Yea she sounds pretty bitter doesn't she. Looks like wife holds all the financial cards and she can't get her fingers on it or her mm is not leaving because of "finances" *snicker*
Owl Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 The WS is the person who should tell, but won't for obvious reasons. The OW would be the 2nd choice, but won't also for obvious reasons. I guess that leaves the point that OB made. Don't be oblivious to what's going on about you. Listen to your gut when it tells you that something may be wrong. Don't take your spouse for granted and be sure you always keep open communication with your spouse. I'd agree, but most BS's won't/can't act without PROOF. Even confronted head on with proof, a WS will LIE about the affair. They'll deny, minimize, avoid, etc... pretty much doing any kinds of mental and vocal gymnastics to avoid the confrontation and the responsibility of their actions. Communication will FAIL at that point...no matter what the BS says, the WS will deny, deny, deny. Without proof, the BS is nearly always afraid to confront, with the fear of that very small chance of "what if I'm wrong". I know that I postponed confrontation for a LONG time for this very reason...until I finally was convinced that there was an affair, and I was forced to gather that proof. If they can't gather that proof, they're going to remain stuck until SOMEONE gives it to them.
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Yea she sounds pretty bitter doesn't she. Looks like wife holds all the financial cards and she can't get her fingers on it or her mm is not leaving because of "finances" *snicker* dream on sweetheart. He's left. snicker away.... if such things make you happy
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 It must suck to live like that. Did you trust your MM w/ everything he said? Said about what, Mopar? In our profession, argument and refutation is big, so debate is pretty much the way we function. It might look like pretty robust exchanges to the outside, but to us, it's engaging banter.
silktricks Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 I'd agree, but most BS's won't/can't act without PROOF. Even confronted head on with proof, a WS will LIE about the affair. They'll deny, minimize, avoid, etc... pretty much doing any kinds of mental and vocal gymnastics to avoid the confrontation and the responsibility of their actions. Communication will FAIL at that point...no matter what the BS says, the WS will deny, deny, deny. Without proof, the BS is nearly always afraid to confront, with the fear of that very small chance of "what if I'm wrong". I know that I postponed confrontation for a LONG time for this very reason...until I finally was convinced that there was an affair, and I was forced to gather that proof. If they can't gather that proof, they're going to remain stuck until SOMEONE gives it to them. I agree wholeheartedly. The problem I have is that your solution - i.e. the OP should tell or the WS should tell - simply won't happen in most situations - or at least not while the affair is ongoing. The BS is in a terrible position. He/she feels that something is wrong. The may (or may not) have asked - even repeatedly - what is wrong. This may be even before the affair has begun - but once it has begun, for sure they will get lies and more lies. That's why I say that the "solution" - which I'll grant isn't really a solution either, is pretty much to be proactive in taking care. Whenever something "feels" off - take care of it. Don't let things fester - ever. Don't be complacent. Don't take each other for granted. A marriage is a contract that needs constant nourishment.
noforgiveness Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 dream on sweetheart. He's left. snicker away.... if such things make you happy So you are happily living together now and are no longer the ow? Are you feeling resentment that he is paying her monthly?
OWoman Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 I would agree that this is the case for most people, Owoman. But YOU typically respond at least once a week on this forum with comments about how you're glad you don't live in America because of XXX, or how you're glad your country isn't like America because of YYY.... Numerous people have brought this up to your attention in the past. You've repeatedly made comments about our culture being backwards/repressive/etc... Bluntly, it gets old hearing it. And being as patriotic as ANY veteran, I'm darn sure going to say something about it. If you (and others) cease making comments about my country and my culture, I'll gladly drop the subject. Owl - if I've come across as bashing, I apologise. The points I've sought to make have been that the experience which some posters seek to portray as universal, or not - they're applicable only to their context, which quite possibly (since they typically resonate with others from that region) is a national / geographic context. Those experiences differ for those of us elsewhere. That's all. I have never been to America. It's unlikely I'll ever get the opportunity to go. So I'm not in any position to make value calls either way - beyond those comparative calls I've alluded to of difference. I certainly did not mean to offend your nationalism - I think in different terms politically, but my political allegiances are very important to me as I imagine yours are to you. Dissing them was not my intention. Apologies if it came across that way.
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