Lookingforward Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Funny that, in your mind, it's "scoring" a point rather than "making" a point, which was what I did quite successfully. Said point being, selfish people are more apt to be cheaters or cheatees :bunny::bunny:
Adunaphel Posted June 18, 2008 Posted June 18, 2008 Here in the US the wait time(s) for divorcing can vary widely depending on where you live. Your situation is tough because of the legal delay imposed on a divorce action. It seems your country values marriages a bit more than ours thus making it difficult to expedite the legal consumation of a relationship like yours. So, the real question comes down to is "are you willing to put your life on hold and wait for this man for 3 years before you get any real evidence that a divorce is even in the making"? Remember, couples can reconcile during seperation so joining him during this time period exposes you to a large risk of uncertainty. Your situation is like a Black Jack hand showing a ten and a deuce. Do you take a risk a hit or do you stay pat?! This is a very good analogy. At present I am taking the risk, but trying to keep my eyes open (which I guess might sound quite ridiculous considered the number of OW who had the very same intention and got sucked in). I am paying attention to my gut feelings, trying to understand whether this man could be the right person for me, seeing if his behaviour is consistent with his words and asking myself questions such as: if I were in his wife's shoes and knew the whole picture, what would I think of him? If my gut feelings remain silent and I get satisfying answers to the other questions, then I can wait. Thank you once again for the reply, and also for the other advice.
pelicanpreacher Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Depends if you prefer to believe your nursery school teacher, or mental health professionals. The latter will agree with you, LF, whereas the former will tell you you need to be selfless and giving. The kind of thing most of us psychologically healthy people would label "doormat". There was a poster here (I can't remember his name) who leaped into action and pushed his wife out of the way just in time to get struck on the head by a falling piece of concrete that injured him so badly that he lapsed into a comma. According to your mental health associates his selfless sacrifice on behalf of his wife was the act of a doormat? I also remember seeing a television documentary about some Soviet Soldiers in WWII who buried themselves alive in a strategically important underground armory upon orders from their high command in order to prevent the site's capture from the Nazi's, who spent more than a month hammering them in an intense military assault, because of the importance the armmaments were to furthering the Nazi's campaign to capture a city in what I believe (I may be mistaken) was the "Battle of Stalingrad". Fill the world with the selfish and we'd all be goose-stepping down the straße today instead of enjoying the freedom those selfless doormats provided that you're so glib about! True love often demands the selfless act of (ultimate) sacrifice. Perhaps your mental health buddies should take a ride on their own "analysis couch" so someone can talk a backbone into them. If they share your vacant view on love they have neither the courage, strength, nor moral fiber to advise, discuss, or demonstrate the meaning of love! You seem to have a very cold and clinical attitude for a woman on this subject. I don't think I could ever understand you.
OWoman Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Well, I think the reason that many women see it as a betrayal of the "sista hood" is because women DO BOND far deeper between themselves than men do. SOME women. SOME men. But I think cross-gender friendships are by far the deepest - especially when there's no underlying sexual tension (the "gay best friend" phenomenon, though both parties can be straight).
Owl Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 SOME women. SOME men. But I think cross-gender friendships are by far the deepest - especially when there's no underlying sexual tension (the "gay best friend" phenomenon, though both parties can be straight). I would have to both agree and disagree with this, Owoman. Many women develop their closest relationships with other women. They're the "non-threatening" but deeply emotional relationships that many women find very fulfilling when they're married. They can confide things in their women friends without major risk of emotionally investing to the point where it does create sexual tension. In other words, they form deep emotional relationships with someone who isn't sexually compatible, so the risk of this leading to an affair is smaller. Many woman also have very strong relationships with men. And when they're not in a committed relationship, they often have some very fulfilling friendships this way, once they learn how to handle that sexual tension that often creeps into these kinds of relationships. The real issue with these friendships though is that they present a major risk of an affair when the woman is married. She starts comparing her friendship to her marriage relationship...she emotionally invests in her male friend things that she SHOULD be investing in her husband...and when that sexual tension creeps in during a time of marital stress....BINGO...instant affair. The vast majority of emotional affairs start as opposite sex friendships. Which is why these should be avoided when you're married or in a committed relationship. What happened in my own situation is a prime example of this. The other thing to consider...your spouse should hopefully be your best friend as well. Helps fulfill ALL of those emotional needs without risk.
mopar crazy Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 I would have to both agree and disagree with this, Owoman. Many women develop their closest relationships with other women. They're the "non-threatening" but deeply emotional relationships that many women find very fulfilling when they're married. They can confide things in their women friends without major risk of emotionally investing to the point where it does create sexual tension. In other words, they form deep emotional relationships with someone who isn't sexually compatible, so the risk of this leading to an affair is smaller. Many woman also have very strong relationships with men. And when they're not in a committed relationship, they often have some very fulfilling friendships this way, once they learn how to handle that sexual tension that often creeps into these kinds of relationships. The real issue with these friendships though is that they present a major risk of an affair when the woman is married. She starts comparing her friendship to her marriage relationship...she emotionally invests in her male friend things that she SHOULD be investing in her husband...and when that sexual tension creeps in during a time of marital stress....BINGO...instant affair. The vast majority of emotional affairs start as opposite sex friendships. Which is why these should be avoided when you're married or in a committed relationship. What happened in my own situation is a prime example of this. The other thing to consider...your spouse should hopefully be your best friend as well. Helps fulfill ALL of those emotional needs without risk. That is exactly what happened in my situation. H was friends w/ the xOW. As soon as she was hired as his assistant they became closer and formed even a stronger friendship. They both confided in each other's martial problems. Instead of talking to us (their spouses) they talked to each other. I knew the xOW had feelings for my H years prior to their A. But when she asked my H if he had problems w/ PE (b/c her own H did) I knew they were getting too close. H said he never bad mouthed me. The xOW told me over the phone that H was confused about our M, he didn't know if he wanted a D or not, so he confided in her. H was never the type of guy to talk about our R to anyone, not even his closest friends but he didn't seem to have a problem talking to her about it. His BF that he lived w/ during our separation didn't even know that he was having an A until I told him. He was shocked. I liked my H's friends very much and they liked me. We got along great. I think it was a shock to all of them when they found out H was having an A. If he would have stayed w/ the OW I think it would have been awhile b4 they accepted her into their group. H told me during their A he never once took her w/ him when he hung out w/ his friends. She, however did take H w/ her and introduced him to her friends.
OWoman Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Which is why these should be avoided when you're married or in a committed relationship. Owl I'm going to have to disagree with you on that! My friendships mean more to me than ANYTHING and there's no way I would ever put any R before those. Plus, I've counselled more than enough battered women in my lifetime to see what happens when people DO invest all their emotional energy in their M and insufficient in their friends, colleagues and family. It leads to disproportionate marital intensity, and isolation on the other fronts, opening the door to abuse or other unhealthy dynamics. For me that would be a complete deal-breaker and any guy who expected that of me would be on the reject pile PDQ. Friends are forever
Owl Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Which is precisely why you're not good marriage material, Owoman! :) Luckily, you've long since identified that on your own and recognize and own it. A marriage should ALWAYS be your closest and most personal relationship...if its not, that's exactly when you're at greatest risk of becoming involved in an affair. From my perspective, you've got it backwards...but of course that only applies if you intend to have a monogamous, long term marriage. Since that's not your intent or desire, there's nothing wrong with your prioritization based on your own personal goals and values.
OWoman Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Which is precisely why you're not good marriage material, Owoman! :) Luckily, you've long since identified that on your own and recognize and own it. A marriage should ALWAYS be your closest and most personal relationship...if its not, that's exactly when you're at greatest risk of becoming involved in an affair. From my perspective, you've got it backwards...but of course that only applies if you intend to have a monogamous, long term marriage. Since that's not your intent or desire, there's nothing wrong with your prioritization based on your own personal goals and values. Thank you for that vote of confidence - with that blessing, I can safely continue on my merry way! Actually Owl, MM IS my closest friend. But he's not my only friend, and he knows exactly how I feel about my friends and where he stands on that. Many of my friends have become our friends, just as many of his friends have become ours, but there are some of my friends he's not crazy about and some of his friends that I think are losers and no way would he expect me to lose mine any more than I'd expect him to lose his. And I think that's healthy. A bit like the prophet's exhortation to "let there be spaces in your togetherness". I'd feel smothered otherwise, as would he.
Owl Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Well, my wife is my closest friend as well. Its a great way to have a marriage for darn sure. But because I maintain my marriage as my highest priority relationship, no other friendship with anyone will approach the level of my marriage. I'm not saying its wrong to have friends, or wrong to have opposite sex friends. But it IS dangerous to prioritize your OTHER friendships above or even equal to your marriage relationship. That really is the gist of my point.
pelicanpreacher Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Thank you for that vote of confidence - with that blessing, I can safely continue on my merry way! Actually Owl, MM IS my closest friend. But he's not my only friend, and he knows exactly how I feel about my friends and where he stands on that. Many of my friends have become our friends, just as many of his friends have become ours, but there are some of my friends he's not crazy about and some of his friends that I think are losers and no way would he expect me to lose mine any more than I'd expect him to lose his. And I think that's healthy. A bit like the prophet's exhortation to "let there be spaces in your togetherness". I'd feel smothered otherwise, as would he. Well, my wife is my closest friend as well. Its a great way to have a marriage for darn sure. But because I maintain my marriage as my highest priority relationship, no other friendship with anyone will approach the level of my marriage. I'm not saying its wrong to have friends, or wrong to have opposite sex friends. But it IS dangerous to prioritize your OTHER friendships above or even equal to your marriage relationship. That really is the gist of my point. I don't see you guys as that far apart in your perspectives, other than those friends either party don't like or can't relate to, for if some of those friends are of the opposite sex and one spouse feels uncomfortable about their emotional closeness to their relationship then a sacrafice needs to be made!
GreenEyedLady Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 A marriage should ALWAYS be your closest and most personal relationship...if its not, that's exactly when you're at greatest risk of becoming involved in an affair. I totally agree with you Owl... Isn't that how we pick our life partner anyway? Someone who we're attracted to, and have shared interests and values with. Someone who is our best friend, not only friend, but best friend. The one you'll spend your life with, your retirement with, etc. My parents are like that. And they've been married happily for 35 years now (not to say they didn't have ups and downs). I think the break down of the M happens when any 3rd party R becomes more important than the primary R.
jpearl Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 This is my 1st post. I am glad I found this place to read all the info I have & to gain insight.. With that said....I too am an OW & have been for 5 yrs. Less than a yr into the relationship, I couldn't bear the lies & deceit & wanted the truth to come out. I gave him 60 days to leave & divorce. I then told him I should just end this because it would make it easier on him & when he agreed, something in me snapped & I called the W & left a message about what was going on. She called back & we talked for a long time. I was naive, to say the least, & she decided to "keep' him & got him into counseling the next day at their church. We NEVER stopped seeing each other. He said he was a little upset with me but that was all. (we work together & I see him every day) My point is............when a man is "kept", he stays out of guilt. When the W keeps him, it's not out of great love for this man, but to keep what has been accumulated over the years. She does not want to lose the lifestyle & the runner, the yard man, the cook & the escort, not to mention the 401K & retirement incomes that are accumulating. It is now 4 yrs later, after the phone call. He is STILL there. I think he is weak & hate to admit it, but after the 3 months of counseling ended, he said...There's counseling & then there is reality. I am seriously thinking of letting her know again, although, not directly. I do believe the W or the H, has a right to know. The marriage is over when another relationship begins, only people get so set in their ways & are comfortable in their misery & are AFRAID to do anything. I think there is a big disservice done to the W, who doesn't know or who is turning her head the other way. It is a marriage based on lies and deceit. I say the W should know. If I were married & my spouse was cheating, for whatever reason, there would be no looking back. He would be gone. Unfortunately, most people don't think like I do. Once the marriage vows have been broken, there is no taking them back. These things don't just happen. There is a reason for everything. Good luck.
Chrome Barracuda Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 This is my 1st post. I am glad I found this place to read all the info I have & to gain insight.. With that said....I too am an OW & have been for 5 yrs. Less than a yr into the relationship, I couldn't bear the lies & deceit & wanted the truth to come out. I gave him 60 days to leave & divorce. I then told him I should just end this because it would make it easier on him & when he agreed, something in me snapped & I called the W & left a message about what was going on. She called back & we talked for a long time. I was naive, to say the least, & she decided to "keep' him & got him into counseling the next day at their church. We NEVER stopped seeing each other. He said he was a little upset with me but that was all. (we work together & I see him every day) My point is............when a man is "kept", he stays out of guilt. When the W keeps him, it's not out of great love for this man, but to keep what has been accumulated over the years. She does not want to lose the lifestyle & the runner, the yard man, the cook & the escort, not to mention the 401K & retirement incomes that are accumulating. It is now 4 yrs later, after the phone call. He is STILL there. I think he is weak & hate to admit it, but after the 3 months of counseling ended, he said...There's counseling & then there is reality. I am seriously thinking of letting her know again, although, not directly. I do believe the W or the H, has a right to know. The marriage is over when another relationship begins, only people get so set in their ways & are comfortable in their misery & are AFRAID to do anything. I think there is a big disservice done to the W, who doesn't know or who is turning her head the other way. It is a marriage based on lies and deceit. I say the W should know. If I were married & my spouse was cheating, for whatever reason, there would be no looking back. He would be gone. Unfortunately, most people don't think like I do. Once the marriage vows have been broken, there is no taking them back. These things don't just happen. There is a reason for everything. Good luck. If he is a weak man for staying, doesnt that make you weak by extension by messing with him in the first place accepting his table scraps? I mean where's your self-respect to let go and have a more forfilling relationship with a single man? So you would cheat with a married man but a man that your married to, you would divorce with no questions asked? but herin lies the conumdrum. You think she should drop him to the curb so you can pick him up. but her staying with him trying to rebuild the marriage based on how many years they have together. is wrong? Am I missing something here?
stillafool Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 After reading here for a while I have some ideas on why a OW doesn't tell the wife the truth. Please tell me if I'm wrong. #1 - The OW is only in the affair for the sex and doesn't want the MM full time. Telling the wife might result in the MM being single and want more than the OW wants to give him. #2 - The OW is afraid that if the wife knows the MM will try to fix the marriage and the OW will be out of the picture. #3 - The OW feels that she doesn't owe the BW anything because the OW isn't married to the wife and therefor isn't responsible for anything that has to do with the wife. #4 - The OW believes the MM when he tells her how awful the BW is and that if the BW found out she would steal the kids and all his money. The way I see it, everyone deserves the truth. If the truth causes pain for anyone, why would anyone want to live that kind of lie? I started a new thread because I didn't want to thread jack another thread with my thoughts about telling the wife the truth. Oh you forgot: #5 - The OW is afraid the wife may stab, shoot, kill or even worst sue her.
Lookingforward Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Oh you forgot: #5 - The OW is afraid the wife may stab, shoot, kill or even worst sue her. you forgot #6. The W already KNOWS.
stillafool Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 you forgot #6. The W already KNOWS. :lmao: and don't forget #7 - She could care less!
Cliche Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 After reading here for a while I have some ideas on why a OW doesn't tell the wife the truth. Please tell me if I'm wrong. #1 - The OW is only in the affair for the sex and doesn't want the MM full time. Telling the wife might result in the MM being single and want more than the OW wants to give him. #2 - The OW is afraid that if the wife knows the MM will try to fix the marriage and the OW will be out of the picture. #3 - The OW feels that she doesn't owe the BW anything because the OW isn't married to the wife and therefor isn't responsible for anything that has to do with the wife. #4 - The OW believes the MM when he tells her how awful the BW is and that if the BW found out she would steal the kids and all his money. The way I see it, everyone deserves the truth. If the truth causes pain for anyone, why would anyone want to live that kind of lie? I started a new thread because I didn't want to thread jack another thread with my thoughts about telling the wife the truth. Well, I've only read the OP so I don't where this thread went for the last 22 pages, but I would like to point out that this list is most definitely not comprehensive. I did not tell the W because my relationship wasn't about her. For most of the relationship, there was simply no reason for me to tell her. Whether or not MM felt there was a reason, that would've been between him and her. Frankly, if MM would have chosen to stay with her, then it would have been his burden to tell her if he were honest about wanting his M to work. And MM decided not to stay in the M, so what she knows is irrelevant since their R is over. She did figure it out somewhere along the line but, again, I didn't need to insert myself in that because, again, their R was over. I will say that when I found out I was pg, I told MM that if he did stay in the M, he would have to tell her about me and the baby, and we'd have to meet so that we could all figure out how to raise the babe together. But that never came to pass. That, however, was the only situation I could think of, ime, where her and I would need to discover one another.
SerenityX2 Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Well, I've only read the OP so I don't where this thread went for the last 22 pages, but I would like to point out that this list is most definitely not comprehensive. I did not tell the W because my relationship wasn't about her. For most of the relationship, there was simply no reason for me to tell her. Whether or not MM felt there was a reason, that would've been between him and her. Frankly, if MM would have chosen to stay with her, then it would have been his burden to tell her if he were honest about wanting his M to work. And MM decided not to stay in the M, so what she knows is irrelevant since their R is over. She did figure it out somewhere along the line but, again, I didn't need to insert myself in that because, again, their R was over. I will say that when I found out I was pg, I told MM that if he did stay in the M, he would have to tell her about me and the baby, and we'd have to meet so that we could all figure out how to raise the babe together. But that never came to pass. That, however, was the only situation I could think of, ime, where her and I would need to discover one another. WOW... This is one of the saddest things I have ever read. Hopefully he didn't just choose you out of default b/c the fallout this would have created would have been too much for him to man up to...I'm only going on what you wrote and it sounds like he near had a gun held to his head to "make" his decision. To say that the W with zero knowledge on her part would NEED to be involved in raising another woman's child? like I said WOW. Really, you don't see that you do fit #3. So I guess it is a comprehensive list after all I guess you don't see that. You would have told her if it suited your needs. To hell with what she needed to make an informed decision. WOW. Been awhile since I read something that callous. She's way better off without him.
Cliche Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 WOW... This is one of the saddest things I have ever read. Hopefully he didn't just choose you out of default b/c the fallout this would have created would have been too much for him to man up to...I'm only going on what you wrote and it sounds like he near had a gun held to his head to "make" his decision. To say that the W with zero knowledge on her part would NEED to be involved in raising another woman's child? like I said WOW. Really, you don't see that you do fit #3. So I guess it is a comprehensive list after all I guess you don't see that. You would have told her if it suited your needs. To hell with what she needed to make an informed decision. WOW. Been awhile since I read something that callous. She's way better off without him. And he without her. They didn't fit together. *shrug* Serenity, No, there was no default. I gave him a total "out" on the pregnancy where he could've chosen to stay out of our (meaning me and baby) lives completely...I even told him I wouldn't seek support as long as he waived his parental rights. But he made it clear to me immediately upon discovery of the pg that he wanted to be a dad to the baby and a full partner with me. So, since he chose to be a dad, if he would have also chose to work on his M, she would also have to be a part of that baby's life. It would've had to happen that way (of course, a W in that situation can choose to leave the M...that's how she makes the choice whether or not to raise a child in that environment). Though MM never once said he wanted to work on his M or stay with W. He never truly entertained it as an option. Telling him she'd have to know about the baby if he stayed was part of our conversation we had where I outlined all the options to him at the same point I gave him the "out." I'm a control freak prone to anxiety, so, of course, when coming across an unplanned major life event, I lay out all possible scenarios no matter how unlikely. From his perspective, all he ever wanted was to be a family with me, the baby and my other children and that was the only option he ever planned on exercising. As far as my supposed duty to inform her, I was not a part of her R nor was she a part of mine. MM had an R with her that he told me was over. He had an R with me that he told me was beginning. If MM's claims weren't true, it is an impetus on the MM to fix any untruths. OWs and BS' have no relationship...not friends, not enemies, nothing. We have a common person in our lives. OW and BS owe each other nothing. Why make that any more complicated than it is? Is the married individual working between two women who needs to choose honesty where he thinks it appropriate.
Lookingforward Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 :lmao: and don't forget #7 - She could care less! yes, 7 usually follows if 6 is a given LOL
Cliche Posted July 7, 2008 Posted July 7, 2008 Quote: Originally Posted by grogster It's only after the Affair ends (and end they all do) when the dumped OM/OW gets an attack of integrity (or is that revenge?) and wants to confess all to the BS. Oooo, I can envision an OW attack in the making for THIS statement! All affairs do end. Only some of them end by becoming a marriage or long-term relationship.
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