Michael212 Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Amazing how cathartic it is to write about difficult situations - and feel the support of a community. Please share your feelings and ideas with me. I am 31 years old - never married. Fell for a 29 year old Canadian girl who lives in my town in Switzerland. We were attracted to each other from the moment we met - but I kept those feelings in check because I knew she has a boyfriend whom she lives with. I had never cheated on a girlfriend - although several have cheated on me. I had no desire to hurt her boyfriend whom I know and feel a liking for. At a dinner party one night she even tried to kiss me with her partner in the other room. Despite really wanting to, I avoided the situation and left the dinner altogether to get out of trouble! A couple months ago I decided to ask her for coffee. My intention was really just to have someone to talk to - but one thing led to another and we ended up in bed. Feelings developed pretty quick and pretty deep. I have a good connection with her. There are enough similarities to suggest this could be a workable relationship. Issue: she has lived with a guy for 6 or 7 years. She claims to have lost romantic feeling for him and to just be going through the motions. I've kept a part of myself distant since this began - knowing that the situation wasn't very promising. I only gave in to the sexual stuff in the beginning because I felt tired of always being the moral, puritanical one and wanted to experience letting myself go for something I wanted for a change. Over the months i've "ended" things twice already and am going for a third right now. The reasons in the beginning were that I just felt the situation was screwed up. I felt guilty. I felt I didn't want to get involved in a mess that couldn't bring me what I want - a committed partnership. She claims to love me - and want to be with me. But that things are complicated in her life. I see that they are. She doesn't have a work permit for where we live so has been financially dependent on her partner for some 4 years. She desperately wants to start a career but her self esteem is not high right now. Added to this is the fact that my situation is in flux. I am living full time in a hotel room at the moment as I wait for news about a big scholarship to go to a top university to continue my doctorate. I'll only know about that in a month - and getting it or not will influence what country I end up moving to next year. I figure the smart thing to do right now is to stop the sex, stop the romance and basically stop seeing her. If she does make decisions in her life to leave her partner - then we can talk again in the future. Right now - its just upsetting me that I can't have what I want. In the beginning I was ok to keep things secret (we live in a pretty small town 5 minutes walk from one another) but recently I started feeling frustrated that I couldn't see her when I wanted to see her, feeling jealous of her spending time with her partner etc. What was fun has now become a bit burdensome. I would like a committed partnership as much as the next guy - probably more. I would be loyal and faithful to my partner. She has alot of qualities that I really like. Great sex. Smart. Fun. Exciting. Captivating. Makes me want to look after her. But hanging on - waiting to see, dealing with the uncertainty of will she leave or won't she. Just feels disempowering. I've had a history of being the betrayed party in a triangle. This is my first time playing the other role. One thing i've learned is that this role is not necessarily easier than the other! Question: Am I doing the right thing by cutting off from her and re-focusing on my own life? Am I being unfair to her? After all - its perfectly understandable she can't walk out on her bf right now with a suitcase and come to live in my hotel room with me. That's asking too much - and more than I would even want. I just don't ever want to feel like the jilted party again. I don't want to be in love with her and have her decide not to leave her bf!
whichwayisup Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Question: Am I doing the right thing by cutting off from her and re-focusing on my own life? Am I being unfair to her? After all - its perfectly understandable she can't walk out on her bf right now with a suitcase and come to live in my hotel room with me. That's asking too much - and more than I would even want. You are doing the RIGHT thing by cutting things off with her and focussing on yourself. She has a live-in boyfriend and fact is, she has not broken it off with him and won't. Don't feel bad or feel sorry for her, she KNOWS that what she is doing is wrong, as do you and it's good you see this now before EVERYONE gets hurt later on. Better to walk away now, tell her not to call you until she breaks up with him and some time has gone by. Focus on you and your life now.
Author Michael212 Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 I will say one thing I have learned from this experience that has taken up two months of my life - luckily not more. Getting into a triangular relationship of some kind can feel exciting. It can feel right. You can imagine there is some higher purpose or meaning in your connection. You can find reasons to convince yourself why it is ok. You can make each other promises, tell each other you are in love. You can believe that things will someone unfold and magically all work out. But at some point - reality will come crashing down. For the betrayed - you create your own betrayal by not looking after your own needs. These things never just happen randomly. You have to co-create your own betrayal. God knows i've done it several times. For the enabler - you won't get what you really want. Nothing solid can be built on deception and lies. Your relationship will be deception and lies too because the betrayer you enable is too confused in themselves to know what they want. For the betrayer - I have never played your role - but I have never seen it work out well. I've learned my lesson well in this one. I won't enable a betrayer again.
Owl Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 OK...she's his GF, she's not his wife. That distinction made, its really simple. Either she's HIS GF, or she's YOUR GF. Not rocket science to work through. If she's his, that means she's not yours. YOu don't kiss/date/schtup each other. If she's yours, she doesn't kiss/date/schtup or live with someone else. Again, not rocket science. So yes, but drawing boundaries in what you're willing to accept in this relationship, you're doing the right thing.
Author Michael212 Posted June 10, 2008 Author Posted June 10, 2008 Ok I hear your point - but WHAT IF She is his girlfriend - yet for all intents and purposes they live as a married couple in a foreign country where she moved purely to be with him. Sharing bank account, home etc. She is no longer romantically inclined towards him for various reasons including that he won't marry her (having been through a divorce) and that prevents her from working in Switzerland. So she is stuck in the sense that leaving the relationship means a) moving countries b) finding her first job in 4 years c) giving up her life here and the financial security it brings. So that makes things a little more complicated for her. I'm not excusing her behavior. What she's got to do is get out of a loveless relationship if she's in one and find the courage to step out on her own. She's 28 years old - has a masters degree and is attractive. Should be a problem for her to build a new life for herself. I believe that the key thing that keeps her from doing that is fear / lack of self confidence which her boyfriend does little to dispel and even seems to cultivate since it keeps her like a child and him in an adult role with power over her. Again - not excusing her for playing the child role. Early on I made it clear that while I could offer her a roof over her head while she found her feet I would never give her a credit card and would expect her to be independent if she lived with me. She expresses that's what she wants anyway. I withdrew from the relationship because I sensed it was at a point of making her LESS clear about making a move for herself than more. She got emotional romantic and sexual stuff from me - and could keep the financial security and parenting from him. I'm not interested in that (though goodness knows it sounds like many a man's dream!) As far as I am concerned - I won't get the independent lady i want right now - or probably for some time and possibly ever. Depends on the next choices that she makes for herself. So best not to expend more of my energy on it. There are lots of women who ARE ready to go for it. Why not choose one of them? Anyway - I ignored her text messages and phone calls since last night and sat with the pain of disconnecting from her. From experience - this is really the only way and I need to spend time figuring out my need to rescue someone who isn't in a place to give me what I want. I feel a lot better - its empowering to make a conscious choice rather than be a victim and powerless in a situation. I mean God - I could be spending my time analyzing stuff for my doctorate rather than analyzing her psyche and what she needs to do in her life. Thank you for this forum - it does make a real difference to read people's stories when I am sitting with my own deep pain.
Owl Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Honestly, your "WHAT IF" is irrelevent. She's CAPABLE of doing whatever she needs to do. She's CHOOSING not to do anything. None of that matters, when you really sit down and think about it. None of those problems are anywhere near being insurmountable. Bottom line...stick with your boundaries. Tell her point blank that you're not willing to be her mistress. You're willing to be the man in her life...and nothing less.
Author Michael212 Posted June 10, 2008 Author Posted June 10, 2008 You know - you are totally right. She is choosing. She is capable. I don't need to make excuses for her. I did what you suggested - made that very clear to her. Thank you for the good advice. I'll stick to my boundaries - nothing in between but what I want. Today I was actually happier than in some time - not having to deal with the feelings of powerlessness. In honesty I question whether she is really what I want anyway. I just think the situation becomes addictive - wanting something one cannot have. I'll stick to the no contact rule. I was feeling very happy this evening then she called. Like an idiot I answered. I immediately heard voices in the background, started wondering where she was - all the negative feelings come back. I think its also about self esteem. I keep reminding myself: 1. I have an excellent career focus and path laid out that I have worked hard to create. She is without any real focus. 2. I have worked hard to become financially successful. She is in debt. 3. I speak honestly with all whom I meet. She lies to her closest partner her family, her lover and I would say herself. 4. I have overcome difficult addictions. She drinks a lot, smokes and takes drugs. Why let someone who is confused and messed up diminish my self esteem simply because she doesn't have the guts to make difficult choices in her life. Cause that's what it does - having a woman who isn't sure she wants to be with you. Diminishes your sense of worthiness, of value. I deserve a whole lot better than that! Thank you for your help. Funny how complete strangers can be more considerate than people who one sleeps with! Guess I will choose my sleeping partners more carefully next time. Karma is a bitch.
Author Michael212 Posted June 10, 2008 Author Posted June 10, 2008 I just want to say thank you again for your help. It really is so useful. Relationships can be so difficult to deal with when they involve powerful emotions. I hear my friends, my family giving me the same advice - but the feelings become so strong it becomes really hard to see anything straight. They really should invent a pill that "turns off" the brain functions which distort logic when it comes to relationships - so that for just a day one could see things unobstructed by feeling and make the obvious choices. Thanks for providing a clear view. I feel i've got this one figured out now thanks to your help.
frannie Posted June 11, 2008 Posted June 11, 2008 As far as I am concerned - I won't get the independent lady i want right now - or probably for some time and possibly ever. Depends on the next choices that she makes for herself. So best not to expend more of my energy on it. There are lots of women who ARE ready to go for it. Why not choose one of them? Anyway - I ignored her text messages and phone calls since last night and sat with the pain of disconnecting from her. From experience - this is really the only way and I need to spend time figuring out my need to rescue someone who isn't in a place to give me what I want. I feel a lot better - its empowering to make a conscious choice rather than be a victim and powerless in a situation. I mean God - I could be spending my time analyzing stuff for my doctorate rather than analyzing her psyche and what she needs to do in her life. Sounds like you have it all worked out in your head, maybe you just have to let your heart catch up with that? Focus on your future, you have so much going for you. She's stuck (through her own choices), but you don't have to be.
Author Michael212 Posted June 11, 2008 Author Posted June 11, 2008 You're absolutely right. I KNOW the right thing to do. I've played this out enough times to know the movie really well. The hard thing is dealing with the feelings of pain and emptiness that come after. I've gotten better at it through the years - and talking it out to loving people helps a lot. Ultimately these feelings have nothing really to do with THIS girl. I've felt them in similar situations for a variety of girls. The larger scale life discipline I am working on is - keeping focused on my own needs - and not allowing other people's needs to supersede my own in relationships. All of the stuff I wrote in those other posts is stuff that goes through my head - excuses for WHY she is a VICTIM of the situation and I should consider her feelings over my own. I got that from my mom endlessly growing up as a way she kept me focused on her dramas and feelings. I internalized that process pretty well and play it out in my romantic relationships. Honestly - its a great example of manifesting one's internal crap in one's life. I am a 31 year old 6'4 healthy, well travelled, good looking guy with a post graduate education, a healthy bank account and tons of love in my heart. The fact that I struggle to set myself up in a relationship that fulfills me is because I have WORKED SO HARD at staying alone or creating situations in which it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to get what I want. I wish I could paint - because I would create an image of this place that I descend to. The dark, dank walls that close in on me, the sounds of torture that echo through the corridors. All the manifestation of someone sitting alone, dejected, lost, confused, forgotten and abandoned to a horrible fate. Each time I visit I bring a little candle there and clean the walls a little and make it a more homely place. Now that place is slowly turning into a castle with spires that ascend to the heavens and an earthy hearth that glows red the the embers of passion and vision and compassion and love.
frannie Posted June 11, 2008 Posted June 11, 2008 The larger scale life discipline I am working on is - keeping focused on my own needs - and not allowing other people's needs to supersede my own in relationships. All of the stuff I wrote in those other posts is stuff that goes through my head - excuses for WHY she is a VICTIM of the situation and I should consider her feelings over my own. I got that from my mom endlessly growing up as a way she kept me focused on her dramas and feelings. I internalized that process pretty well and play it out in my romantic relationships. Argh! I just pressed something and my entire response disappeared Hm, the short version is that I know exatly where you're coming from. A childhood like that sets you up for focusing on the other person the entire time, and forgetting your own needs in the meantime (or, your own needs ARE to please the other person). I see you say you are focusing on meeting your own needs, and I think that's the way forward. Often, when we're so used to focusing on the other, we dont' even KNOW what our needs are. So beginning to find what they are, and fulfilling them ourselves, and enjoying that fulfilment is a good start. Then to begin to learn how to express what you need to others, and not letting any fear of 'upsetting' them with what might feel at first unreasonable demands (but they're not, they're just simple boundary-setting) put you off from that. Other people (healthy other people!) actually appreciate if you state your boundaries clearly, rather than be wishy-washy, hope they'll get it, and then get hurt and annoyed if they don't. Not saying that these are problems you have, but they're good reasons to have good boundaries and not be afraid of expressing them. Really, its a question of untangling your own self from the other. That unhealthy relationship your Mum set up isnt' a good model as you know. It's so common on this board to see people who (myself included!) come here with a problem, and it turns out to be all about the other person,their needs, their situation, etc. Just like you have done. Sometimes all it takes is for people to realise that's what they're doing for them to get their power back. Other times someone already knows what they're doing... but doesn't know how to stop. It can be so hard.
Author Michael212 Posted June 13, 2008 Author Posted June 13, 2008 Thank you Frannie. You put things very clearly. My needs have a lot to do with sheer loneliness and need for love since I felt pretty much unlovable for most of my life. The girl I have been writing about has left her boyfriend in a turn of events that took me by surprise. She is leaving him and the financial security he has offered and literally flying back to her home country in a few days time.
Author Michael212 Posted July 2, 2008 Author Posted July 2, 2008 I wanted to write about my experiences of being the "other man" in a relationship. For more than a year I resisted a strong connection I felt with a friend who was involved in a relationship of 7 years. When I eventually "gave in" and followed up on that connection it was because I was sick of denying myself pleasures that I wanted. If the girl was ready, why should I be the one to hold off? Afterwards I was wracked with guilt until a friend I respected questioned whether in fact any damage had been done in the situation. He said - go with how you feel. If the feelings between you are real, then it will lead you somewhere. Lead me somewhere it did. At first I was quite happy - eager even to keep things a secret When she needed to take a call from the other man in her life. When she had to leave me at the end of a day. The first weekend was tough - because suddenly she went back to her other life and I felt stranded. As our relationship developed, those feelings of frustration grew until suddenly they became conscious and intolerable. At that point I decided that to continue this way would do me more harm than good. So I put down a simple boundary. At the suggestion of a reader on this forum (thanks reader!) I told her that I was prepared to be THE man in her life - and not play second fiddle anymore. We didn't speak for two days and it felt like agony. I ignored her messages and calls which was when I started posting on this forum to deal with my feelings and seek support. (which I received abundantly - thanks again to all who helped me through that time) When she and I did speak next she told me that she had decided to leave her partner. I was extremely surprised. I had hardly expected this - given the implications for her of doing so. (having to leave her home and fly back to another country) I suddenly saw the possibility of a real future together. We met and experienced a real deepening of our connection. She spoke of wanting to move back to my home country with me - and I felt that I would like that. At this point things became quite difficult. It all became about practicalities. Her needing to extricate herself from a situation that had very real logistical and financia implications. She put off her departure date 4 times until I finally said that I didn't want to connect with her again until she was moved out and back home. It was all a very stressful time for me. Wondering whether she would go through with it or not. Would she patch things up with her partner etc. Finally, yesterday she got on an airplane with all of her things packed up and her relationship over. For me it was a relief. Towards the end I had grown to hate having to "share" her - and to feel extremely and uncharacteristically insecure. I had also started to feel angry towards her for changing her dates and for what I felt was "playing two sides" which of course she was in order to manage her extrication with the minimum of drama and hurt. Today I sit alone again in the town we once shared. She is 12 hours flight and 10 hours time difference away. I still have the uncertainty of whether she might change her mind about things. Whether our relationship will survive the few months it will take us to find our way to the same city once again. Whether she will be happy where I come from. Whether we will actually be good for each other. After all a passionate and ilicit romance in Europe in summertime is different from day to day living which we have never shared. Sure it would be ideal if we had met in a different way - but when have circumstances for anything (marriage, having children, building a career) ever been ideal? We found each other - we want to be with each other - and I am staing true to that vision. What have I learned from the experience? 1. Sometimes getting involved with someone in a partnership does not mean that you are destroying a beautiful thing. If it were so beautiful there probably wouldn't be the holes for this kind of thing to happen. The lady in question had been unhappy for many years. Her partner had not given her some of the key things she needed (security, career support etc) and the only thing that had prevented her leaving was her own fear. Falling in love with me was a catalyst that got her to leave a situation that was unhappy for her. Whether she and I work out - I believe the benefit will be there for her. 2. Its important to listen to how you yourself feel - and to honor those feelings. It was hard for me to draw a boundary - and very hard to stick with it. But in the end I had to honor my own worth and the things I feel I deserve in my life. I had to decided that I wanted more - and that if I wasn't going to get it I would walk away. I have spoken to people who sit in the position of being the other man or woman for years and never find the courage to draw or stick to that line. If its worth it - sticking to that line will lead to something more. If its not - then you are well rid of it and on to something else. 3. Stay out of the extrication process. I never told this girl how to handle her process of leaving her partner. But I wanted to support her so I listened sometimes to her complaints or her fears or anguish about it. Fact is - that was pretty uncomfortable for me and hurt me. In the end I just made a rule not to talk to her about her feelings about her past relationship. She can talk to her friends or her family about that. 4. Perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT lesson for me came from seeing "other man" from a different perspective. ie. Being him. 8 years ago my closest friend slept and later moved in with my then girlfriend. It destroyed me and my life and took me some years to recover. In retrospect I look at the situation and wonder why I was clinging so hard to a woman who clearly was not that into me and hadn't been for some time before the affair with my friend (who also really was not a very good friend anyway) took place. I can see now that in fact I had been pushing her away for some time and had threatened to leave her for a better career in another country. Once I got caught up in the emotions of being betrayed I conveniently forgot all of this. I have wondered a few times whether I should feel responsibility to her ex partner. In truth I think I probably did both of them a favor by being true to myself. An unhappy relationship is unhappy for both parties. Sometimes its just too scary to make a change. So all the conventional moralising I learned growing up just hasn't served me so well when it comes to real relationships. I would have been better served by being taught how to recognize, understand and deal with my feelings. I got very little of that. I would like to spend more time teaching people how to work with their feelings. I think alot of good can be done there. Instead we spend millions on therapists and alcohol and drugs and all kinds of escapism or emotional suppression. Time will tell what happens between the girl and I. There is stuff to work through. Trust issues. (will she do that to me?) And goodness knows many more - which is what relationships are all about. Anyway - I will post an update to this forum in 6 months time when the answers are clearer.
Recommended Posts