porter218 Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I understand that some affairs may have their reason, but nobody should advocate dishonesty in order to spare some heart ache. What happens when the BS finds out on their own, then the fact that they have been cheated on is also compounded by the fact that their SO lied. The lie opens a whole other world of problems and hurt.
Lookingforward Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I read that, actually, and it was good and helpful. I wonder whether the article about the book is distorting what the author is saying. I'm not in the camp that believes the spouse should always be told, so I agree with her there, but not because of this: I, like grogster, find some of the knee jerk reactions to the whole "idea" of this book, interesting. It wasn't really a review of the book as much as an article and I got the impression the article writer had a bias against the book's message anyway. I'm not sure if I'll actually read the books, as I'm neither in an A nor intend to be, but there are a couple of her others that I may, so thanks for the heads up OWoman
Storyrider Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I, like grogster, find some of the knee jerk reactions to the whole "idea" of this book, interesting. It wasn't really a review of the book as much as an article and I got the impression the article writer had a bias against the book's message anyway. I'm not sure if I'll actually read the books, as I'm neither in an A nor intend to be, but there are a couple of her others that I may, so thanks for the heads up OWoman Rereading the article and the thread, I'm a bit confused about what she is saying, so I can't say whether I mostly disagree with it or not. The point of the "stay or go" book, was that you may be experiencing issues with your spouse that can never be resolved. The book leads you through a series of questions to figure out whether problems have been there from day one or have appeared over time, what the specific nature of the problems are, and whether they are resolvable. If not, you then have to ask yourself whether you want to live with those issues indefinitely. Unless the person is a serial cheater or a sex addict or incredibly selfish (and those are big "ifs") an affair is often the act of someone who feels trapped and is acting out of desperation. I think that is part of what she's saying. There is a difference between making justifications versus looking at causes. And there is a difference between trying to learn from a bad situation, and painting a pretty picture out of something that is a mess. I guess I would have to read the book to truly understand which she is doing.
NewSunrise Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I understand that some affairs may have their reason, but nobody should advocate dishonesty in order to spare some heart ache. What happens when the BS finds out on their own, then the fact that they have been cheated on is also compounded by the fact that their SO lied. The lie opens a whole other world of problems and hurt. Well, that's why cheaters are quite mindful of the "what the BS doesn't know won't hurt", right? So the cheater will keep on cheating until the BS finds out. They gamble with the the odds of not being found out, likened to a shoplifter who gets aways with it and finds excitement in the process. There is no "gray" line to dishonesty. Such "gray" line benefits only one party who steps over the line. Want to apply "gray line" into a marriage? Then deduce such unequality by a simple process called "divorce." If not, the cheater who opts for such a choice as a means to "spice" a doldrum M, then in fairness of "equality" to th unsuspecting BS, let BS know. Perhaps the BS may want to participate as a mean of taking the M to a whole new level....swinger club? If you're going to add a(multiple) new sex partner(s) into the M, might as well do so "honestly" right?
Lookingforward Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 Rereading the article and the thread, I'm a bit confused about what she is saying, so I can't say whether I mostly disagree with it or not. The point of the "stay or go" book, was that you may be experiencing issues with your spouse that can never be resolved. The book leads you through a series of questions to figure out whether problems have been there from day one or have appeared over time, what the specific nature of the problems are, and whether they are resolvable. If not, you then have to ask yourself whether you want to live with those issues indefinitely. Unless the person is a serial cheater or a sex addict or incredibly selfish (and those are big "ifs") an affair is often the act of someone who feels trapped and is acting out of desperation. I think that is part of what she's saying. There is a difference between making justifications versus looking at causes. And there is a difference between trying to learn from a bad situation, and painting a pretty picture out of something that is a mess. I guess I would have to read the book to truly understand which she is doing. Well, one quote from the author in the article did state that "..We all agree that infidelity is a mistake. But once you've crossed the line, what then?' Which doesn't sound to me as if she is actually advocating Affairs..
Lookingforward Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 Well, that's why cheaters are quite mindful of the "what the BS doesn't know won't hurt", right? So the cheater will keep on cheating until the BS finds out. They gamble with the the odds of not being found out, likened to a shoplifter who gets aways with it and finds excitement in the process. There is no "gray" line to dishonesty. Such "gray" line benefits only one party who steps over the line. Want to apply "gray line" into a marriage? Then deduce such unequality by a simple process called "divorce." If not, the cheater who opts for such a choice as a means to "spice" a doldrum M, then in fairness of "equality" to th unsuspecting BS, let BS know. Perhaps the BS may want to participate as a mean of taking the M to a whole new level....swinger club? If you're going to add a(multiple) new sex partner(s) into the M, might as well do so "honestly" right? I honestly didn't get from the article that the author is considering serial cheaters......did you even read the review ?
NewSunrise Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I honestly didn't get from the article that the author is considering serial cheaters......did you even read the review ? Yep. My comment did not make any reference to "serial cheaters". Swinging club isn't considered serial cheating. It's a choice agreed upon by both H and W. Whereas cheating is done only by one spouse. Excerpts from the review... 'A good person doesn't betray their loved ones. A good person who is unsatisfied in their relationship ends it before starting a new one.' 'You also have to tell if discovery is imminent or likely. If it's clear that you're going to be found out, it's better for you to make the confession first.' The question is WHEN does a WS fesses up? When the OW/OM becomes a psycho as in "Fatal Attraction?" When WS finds out s/he just contracted STD? When WS suspects that BS suspects what's going on? By then, you not only have a M that was already in turmoil in the beginning before the cheating, now you've compounded the M with more problems, not discounting if there are children. At this point as the author claims... Kirshenbaum's opinion on what constitutes a happy ending is also controversial. Divorce, she believes, can be the path to a bright future. 'Sometimes - many times, in fact - divorce is worth it,' she said. Divorce is sometimes the only thing that's right to do in the aftermath of an affair. Let's face it. There are no guarantees in life, except death and taxes. There are no guarantees that a M will last forever. But there are guaranteed outcomes in a M where lying and deceit are valued above honesty.
Lookingforward Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 So the cheater will keep on cheating until the BS finds out. They gamble with the the odds of not being found out, likened to a shoplifter who gets aways with it and finds excitement in the process. Sorry, I took this part to mean serial cheaters - my bad
NewSunrise Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 Sorry, I took this part to mean serial cheaters - my bad No prob, LF.
Stockalone Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I guess that's the difference between IC and MC / family counselling. In IC the counsellor draws the circle around the individual, and all the rest are just factors in that person's life, rather than agents themselves with their own needs, agendas, agency... The only encounters I had with psychologists were mandatory meetings during my military service, so I really have no idea how counselling works. But if this is how it works (something along those lines was mentioned in another thread), I am appalled. That is one fu**ed up way of looking at an SO, someone the person in counselling is supposed to share their live with.
angie2443 Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 The deception involved in hiding this huge secret from their spouse allows a cheater to bleed deception and disrespect into other parts of the marriage. I think that a cheating spouse who realizes that they've gotten away with it looks at their spouse as an idiot whom they can do anything they want to as long as they are clever at their deceit. . It makes sad to read things like this, but it's true!
grogster Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 It makes sad to read things like this, but it's true! No it's not.
NewSunrise Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Originally Posted by michelangelo The deception involved in hiding this huge secret from their spouse allows a cheater to bleed deception and disrespect into other parts of the marriage. I think that a cheating spouse who realizes that they've gotten away with it looks at their spouse as an idiot whom they can do anything they want to as long as they are clever at their deceit. . It makes sad to read things like this, but it's true! A cheating spouse who thinks their BS is an "idiot" because they've cleverly gotten away with deceit equals that of the mental aptitude of a "predator" void of empathy for another. We are all a sum product of how and what we were taught early on. You can blame your flaws on lack of parenting skills or dysfunctional rearing. Once were all "adults", we are all given the same amount of time in a day, the gift of some "moral" aptitude of knowing the difference between right and wrong. Bottom line, it all comes down to CHOICES whether to cross that line.
angie2443 Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 No it's not. You can't lie, or cheat on someone whom you respect and cherrish. When you decieve someone in this manner, you have to, in your mind, lower them in comparrison to you. You have to objectify them in a sense. I would certainly say that someone who disrespects and objectifies their spouse also would think of them as an idiot. If they valued their spouse as a human bieng with intelligence and feeling, they would not have decieved them in the first place.
Lizzie60 Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 You can't lie, or cheat on someone whom you respect and cherrish. When you decieve someone in this manner, you have to, in your mind, lower them in comparrison to you. You have to objectify them in a sense. I would certainly say that someone who disrespects and objectifies their spouse also would think of them as an idiot. If they valued their spouse as a human bieng with intelligence and feeling, they would not have decieved them in the first place. I have to disagree with that... I don't think that cheaters think of their spouse as idiots.. not at all.. some respect them and love them... but some aspects of their relationship is not satisfying .. they look for it outside their relationship... I doubt someone smart would live with an idiot... lol
MrsHellnoFire Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 I wish my post wasnt deleted because it was long and detailed my thoughts on the issue. I guess all I'm going to leave here is that it sounds like she has cheated herself.
MrsHellnoFire Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 I doubt someone smart would live with an idiot... lol It happens all the time, especially with money involved. Also sometimes tearing apart another makes them feel superior if there are ego issues involved.
Stockalone Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 I have to disagree with that... I don't think that cheaters think of their spouse as idiots.. not at all.. some respect them and love them... but some aspects of their relationship is not satisfying .. they look for it outside their relationship... If a person who claims to love and respect me, can cheat on me, I would have to say that such a person has a very twisted understanding of love and respect, at least from my point of view.
GreenEyedLady Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Contrary to popular wisdom, she advocates not telling your spouse if you've been unfaithful, except in two circumstances (you've had unsafe sex, or the affair is about to be exposed) as she believes telling does more harm than good, and reduces the odds of the WS returning to the fold. I would think that most A's evolve into not using barrier methods simply because usually partners stop using them when they've been together after a certain amount of time...I don't know the statistics on that, but what's unsafe sex considered here? Sex out of the triangle? Or sex without a condom? Because honestly, most AP's don't use condoms for the entire duration of the A... And an A is dealbreaker to me. Ironic as that may seem. You're with me and only me or you're without me forever. I left my first H for that reason, and I'd leave again... I don't think an A is ever a good thing for a M...It breaks the trust between the partners which can be rebuilt, but it'll never be the same...
NewSunrise Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 If a person who claims to love and respect me, can cheat on me, I would have to say that such a person has a very twisted understanding of love and respect, at least from my point of view. That's probably why you, I and many posters who DO respect ourselves and others "choose" to not live or be with such idiots, cheaters that is!
Author OWoman Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 I would think that most A's evolve into not using barrier methods simply because usually partners stop using them when they've been together after a certain amount of time...I don't know the statistics on that, but what's unsafe sex considered here? Sex out of the triangle? Or sex without a condom? Because honestly, most AP's don't use condoms for the entire duration of the A... Without reading the book, I can't guess what the author meant, but the very notion of "safe sex" is a misnomer. Few married couples use condoms, yet as we know married sex is quite permeable - if there were no As, we wouldn't be here. And, of course, there are also window periods, asymptomatic infections and other surprises to factor in . (In fact, most of the HIV+ people I know got infected through their partner's indiscretions - which came to light when they tested + having been completely sexually exclusive.) To me, though, "unsafe" sex has nothing to do with using a condom. It has to do with opening one's eyes during orgasm.
Author OWoman Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 That is one fu**ed up way of looking at an SO, someone the person in counselling is supposed to share their live with. Maybe they're not supposed to. The IC can help them uncover that - and if they are, work towards reinforcing and strengthening it; and if they're not, helping the person develop the strength to walk away to wherever they are supposed to be.
Darth Vader Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Sounds just like the sort of book cheaters have been longing for! Still doesn't change the fact that anyone who cheats on their spouse is sick in the head. Gotta agree, just another excuse for people to cheat!
Stockalone Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Maybe they're not supposed to. The IC can help them uncover that - and if they are, work towards reinforcing and strengthening it; and if they're not, helping the person develop the strength to walk away to wherever they are supposed to be. If you ask me, it is self-evident that a cheater isn't supposed to be with me but I also understand that there are others who will give their relationship another try. The point I was trying to make is that those people are in a relationship. That means there is more to be considered than just the needs and rights of the one person in counselling. What I find so appalling about the "don't tell advice" is that I believe that it isn't up to the cheater to decide if this relationship is salvageable or not. Sure, the cheater gets to decide if he/she wants to give it another try or walk away. But that same option has to be made available to their partner. The idea that the decision to remain in a relationship, is to be made by the cheater unilaterally without telling their partner about the cheating, is unacceptable. It's cruel, inhuman and degrading behaviour towards the person that is kept in the dark.
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