herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I haven't been here in a while, but a conversation I had at work last week made me think of LS. I work in an industry where I'm always starting new projects with new people. I've been on this one for about 2 months and most of the people on this project are women, so we have girl chats. Last week we were talking about the few men that work with us and one of the women said that she would have sex with one of the guys if she had the chance. The guy is married and has a young child. With my BW hat on I asked her how she could think of doing such a thing. BTW, no one at work knows that I'm a BW. Her answer was that she would never ordinarily consider have sex with a MM, but she knew that this guy was married before, and the woman he is married to now was the OW. Seems that his current wife got pregnant during the affair, BW found out and immediately filed for divorced. My co-worker went on to say that if anyone deserved to be cheated on it was this guys wife. I've been thinking about this because I have always said that no one deserves to be betrayed by an affair, but I question if others find this situation to be an exception. I'm curious to know how the folks here at LS feel about this.
Lookingforward Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I haven't been here in a while, but a conversation I had at work last week made me think of LS. I work in an industry where I'm always starting new projects with new people. I've been on this one for about 2 months and most of the people on this project are women, so we have girl chats. Last week we were talking about the few men that work with us and one of the women said that she would have sex with one of the guys if she had the chance. The guy is married and has a young child. With my BW hat on I asked her how she could think of doing such a thing. BTW, no one at work knows that I'm a BW. Her answer was that she would never ordinarily consider have sex with a MM, but she knew that this guy was married before, and the woman he is married to now was the OW. Seems that his current wife got pregnant during the affair, BW found out and immediately filed for divorced. My co-worker went on to say that if anyone deserved to be cheated on it was this guys wife. I've been thinking about this because I have always said that no one deserves to be betrayed by an affair, but I question if others find this situation to be an exception. I'm curious to know how the folks here at LS feel about this. I think it's a nice rationalisation on her part for something that she knows is STILL a bs*** thing to do - imo
LadyDi Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Two wrongs don't make a right. So your co-worker thinks its her place to "set things right"? Nice.
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 I don't know my co-worker very well, but I did ask her if she was trying to get some sort of revenge on the OW and she said no. I guess the MM has been flirting with her and in other cases when MM have hit on her, she ignores them, but since she knows the situation with this MM she has no problem with it because she says she wouldn't feel any guilt. Then I asked about the child and she told me that he has 2 kids with his ex wife and the kids are just fine after the divorce. Does make me think that she is friends with the BW since she knows so much about the situation, but she insists that she only knows because she has worked with him in the past and that she has only met his ex wife at work functions. I wasn't the only one at the table with questions about why she would have sex with a MM. I was surprised to see how many of the women actually agreed with her.
Lookingforward Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I don't know my co-worker very well, but I did ask her if she was trying to get some sort of revenge on the OW and she said no. I guess the MM has been flirting with her and in other cases when MM have hit on her, she ignores them, but since she knows the situation with this MM she has no problem with it because she says she wouldn't feel any guilt. Then I asked about the child and she told me that he has 2 kids with his ex wife and the kids are just fine after the divorce. Does make me think that she is friends with the BW since she knows so much about the situation, but she insists that she only knows because she has worked with him in the past and that she has only met his ex wife at work functions. I wasn't the only one at the table with questions about why she would have sex with a MM. I was surprised to see how many of the women actually agreed with her. people will always manage to find a way to justify what they know is basically a wrong action. the 'she deserves it' rationale seems a bit much though. wonder if your co-worker will feel the same way when something similar happens to her ? I doubt it.
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 people will always manage to find a way to justify what they know is basically a wrong action. the 'she deserves it' rationale seems a bit much though. wonder if your co-worker will feel the same way when something similar happens to her ? I doubt it. From what I gathered, this woman will probably never get married again, so I don't think she will find herself in that position. She is divorced with grown kids and from what I could tell not interested in any commitment. I think that is why she finds this MM so appealing. An attached man that she would have sex with and feel no guilt because she knows his wife was once his OW. She also insisted that she has never had sex with a MM that wasn't her H and that she got divorced because her H never grew up and she was "tired of being the only adult in the marriage". I have to admit I found the conversation very interesting. It's not every day I get to talk to someone like her IRL.
Untouchable_Fire Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 My co-worker went on to say that if anyone deserved to be cheated on it was this guys wife. I've been thinking about this because I have always said that no one deserves to be betrayed by an affair, but I question if others find this situation to be an exception. I'm curious to know how the folks here at LS feel about this. I would question what her attraction to him is. Would she just sleep with him to get at his current wife. It sounds to me like your co-worker is just morally deficient.
Owl Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Well, on this one, I definitely agree with everything LF has said.
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 I would question what her attraction to him is. Would she just sleep with him to get at his current wife. It sounds to me like your co-worker is just morally deficient. I think the attraction is on many levels. Mostly that he is unavailable and willing and second that she can do it without feeling guilty about his wife. Like I said, the whole conversation sounded like a LS thread IRL.
Lookingforward Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I think the attraction is on many levels. Mostly that he is unavailable and willing and second that she can do it without feeling guilty about his wife. Like I said, the whole conversation sounded like a LS thread IRL. LOL Is it POSSIBLE to be both unavailable AND willing I wonder ?
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 LOL Is it POSSIBLE to be both unavailable AND willing I wonder ? Let me clarify, he is married so in her mind he is unavailable for a commitment and he is willing (she thinks) to have an affair.
Owl Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Why don't you tell her what you think of her response? "Well, regardless of your "reasons", I don't feel that anyone "deserves" to be cheated on. I was once, it hurt more than you can possibly imagine."
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 Why don't you tell her what you think of her response? "Well, regardless of your "reasons", I don't feel that anyone "deserves" to be cheated on. I was once, it hurt more than you can possibly imagine." I agree 100% with you. I said that in my original post and I did tell her how I felt. I was still surprised at how many of the other women agreed with her. I disagree with it for many reasons. It was the first time I had a conversation like this IRL.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Hi HN! Yeah I can see why a person would think this way and it makes sense that they would feel "well if he left a woman to be with her she deserves to be cheated on too". It "eases" the guilt in getting involved with him should she choose to do so and it seems she is contemplating it given what she has said hence the justification. Sort of like "I don't cheat the system and play by the book if I found out my company was about to let go of some people I think it's ok to "stick it to the man" The thing is you are stilll cheating the system even if you find a justification for it. And it is one thing to premeditate an A and it's another for you to find yourself in a situtation that supercedes you. It sounds like this woman is premeditating and looking for reasons to go for it, while a normal human being who is NOT ok with the scenario will look for reasosns to get out even if they still go through with it it is still a battle. Maaan I bet this conversation must have been so interesting for you provided what you already know. It's rare that I hear conversations about infidelity etc in social settings, do others notice that? it is the one topic that doesn't get discussed much in public, sometimes I see people on the street or at work and I picture who they could from LS, I mean afterall if no one is talking about it out there surely they must be here... Or maybe I have been spending waaaay too much time on here lately
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 Hi HN! Maaan I bet this conversation must have been so interesting for you provided what you already know. It's rare that I hear conversations about infidelity etc in social settings, do others notice that? it is the one topic that doesn't get discussed much in public, sometimes I see people on the street or at work and I picture who they could from LS, I mean afterall if no one is talking about it out there surely they must be here... Or maybe I have been spending waaaay too much time on here lately Interesting to say the least. I really did feel like I was posting on LS and I found that the questions I had and my comments matched what I would post here. I think everyone else involved in the conversation was as interested as I was. I'm not sure how many others in that room have been affected by an affair, but if the statistics are correct, I'm not the only one. I can almost tell who has been an OW and who has been a BW by their reactions, but having been on LS for so long, I'm not so quick to judge. How are you TC? Been a while.
Dominique Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Absurd, sad and stupid, is what I say. It all just goes to show you that, at the end of the day, there is something to the common belief that women truly are fundamentally hostile to one another. This is not about the OW. This is about that particular woman's own cynicism, and that of the other heckling women around her who agree with her, that they can get the guy if she, this OW, did. I suspect they are motivated by jealousy. I am not an OW nor have I been; I do not say this as an expression of "moral highground" because I can sympathize with women who might have fallen in love with a married man who ardently pursues them, or with whom she finds a strong, common bond. I will say, though, that none of these women in the above description of the OP really knows what the truth is to the exMM-exOW marriage. Their arrogance is breathtaking. For, if he did leave his wife to marry her, pregnant or not, there must have been a strong level of affection there. The wife may have filed for divorce, yet as with many divorces, there normally is some space thereafter or just prior to the final breakup left for an attempt at reconciliation. Their marriage might have been on the outs. I am not trying to fully "clear" the OW of her being involved with an MM in the first place but there is more here than I think meets the eye. Perhaps this exMM "only" did the "valiant" thing and married this pregnant OW. But I will, say, this is not an every day thing. It shows some character. Who are these cackling witches to act as if they know what is what in the relationship dynamic of this couple? It really is rather unbelievable to see the level of callousness in people. No, as I say, I think it is about jealousy, envy, a woman who "got" the forbidden guy, so called, however appearances may look. They are wondering if they can do the same. It isn't about "guiltless" seduction. It is competition, plain and simple. Love D
Lookingforward Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 It sounds like this woman is premeditating and looking for reasons to go for it, while a normal human being who is NOT ok with the scenario will look for reasosns to get out even if they still go through with it it is still a battle. It sure does - she is looking for reasons why it's "okay" for her to go after a MM - not usually the situation we see with most OWs on here.
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 Absurd, sad and stupid, is what I say. It all just goes to show you that, at the end of the day, there is something to the common belief that women truly are fundamentally hostile to one another. This is not about the OW. This is about that particular woman's own cynicism, and that of the other heckling women around her who agree with her, that they can get the guy if she, this OW, did. I suspect they are motivated by jealousy. I am not an OW nor have I been; I do not say this as an expression of "moral highground" because I can sympathize with women who might have fallen in love with a married man who ardently pursues them, or with whom she finds a strong, common bond. I will say, though, that none of these women in the above description of the OP really knows what the truth is to the exMM-exOW marriage. Their arrogance is breathtaking. For, if he did leave his wife to marry her, pregnant or not, there must have been a strong level of affection there. The wife may have filed for divorce, yet as with many divorces, there normally is some space thereafter or just prior to the final breakup left for an attempt at reconciliation. Their marriage might have been on the outs. I am not trying to fully "clear" the OW of her being involved with an MM in the first place but there is more here than I think meets the eye. Perhaps this exMM "only" did the "valiant" thing and married this pregnant OW. But I will, say, this is not an every day thing. It shows some character. Who are these cackling witches to act as if they know what is what in the relationship dynamic of this couple? It really is rather unbelievable to see the level of callousness in people. No, as I say, I think it is about jealousy, envy, a woman who "got" the forbidden guy, so called, however appearances may look. They are wondering if they can do the same. It isn't about "guiltless" seduction. It is competition, plain and simple. Love D Interesting observations, but in addition to what I felt about the woman I work with, I also walked away from the conversation with a different view of who this MM was. Keep in mind that he is married and flirting with a single woman who is obviously interested in him. In my opinion he has some issues that weren't resolved and he will probably continue to cheat on whoever he is with until he has faced his own problems. I don't think this is about jealousy or envy. I think it's about two people who are looking to fill something that is missing inside themselves. I don't think either of them have much character.
Lookingforward Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Interesting observations, but in addition to what I felt about the woman I work with, I also walked away from the conversation with a different view of who this MM was. Keep in mind that he is married and flirting with a single woman who is obviously interested in him. In my opinion he has some issues that weren't resolved and he will probably continue to cheat on whoever he is with until he has faced his own problems. I don't think this is about jealousy or envy. I think it's about two people who are looking to fill something that is missing inside themselves. I don't think either of them have much character. but not ALL flirting is looking to lead to anything else.......sometimes that's all it is, flirting
Author herenow Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 but not ALL flirting is looking to lead to anything else.......sometimes that's all it is, flirting I don't think I will ever know where this will lead. I'm sure I won't be someone that she confides in now that she knows how I feel. But, being aware of the situation, I can see the way they act towards each other and I can understand why she feels he is willing to take it further. The fact that she has made her intentions known and he stills flirts with her makes me question his intentions. But, like I said, I will probably never know any more that I do now. Oh well.
OWoman Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I find her (the aspirant OW's) position morally contradictory. Either the ring means something to you (in which case you'd eschew sex with a MM) or it doesn't (in which case any MM is game). Her rationalisation is exactly that - a rationalisation. Does she think the marriage vows the MM took mean any less to him, or his new W, just because they'd stepped outside of another set of vows previously? Did she verify her understanding with the parties concerned? It would be the same as my arguing that because my MM's W had herself previously had an A (with MM being her unwitting OM) that she deserved to be cheated on. To my mind that argument holds no water - if it's "cheating", it's undeserved (like cancer) or if you operate from the paradigm where "cheating" is natural and not an abomination against civilisation, then the sanction (or lack thereof) would apply equally in any context, and not just one where fingerpointing was already in evidence. (I also find it odd that you and TC regard these kinds of conversations as unusual - perhaps they are in your countries, but around here they're as normal as discussing what was on tv the night before. And, of course, in mixed gender company, rather than "only women".)
OpenBook Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 (I also find it odd that you and TC regard these kinds of conversations as unusual - perhaps they are in your countries, but around here they're as normal as discussing what was on tv the night before. And, of course, in mixed gender company, rather than "only women".) Here in the Deep South, a woman can get a bad reputation mighty quick airing such thoughts with one's co-workers, whether the co-workers are male or female. Of course, men can talk all day long about who they'd like to "do" and it doesn't hurt them.
OWoman Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Here in the Deep South, a woman can get a bad reputation mighty quick airing such thoughts with one's co-workers, whether the co-workers are male or female. Of course, men can talk all day long about who they'd like to "do" and it doesn't hurt them. Hmmm - I get the impression that America is pretty uptight in many regards about sexual matters, despite the image Hollywood tries to portray. Here people seem far less inhibited - in both doing, and discussing. People perv openly in office situations - among mixed (gender) company - despite policies on sexual harassment, and if anyone finds graphic discussions on sex embarrassing, chances are they'll be teased for being prudish, and would be wise to excuse themselves when they see the conversation taking a turn in that direction.
OldEurope Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I don't regard it as "prudish" quite frankly I regard it as professional. Private matters really should stay in the private sphere. I would be very uncomfortable in an office situation where women/men are talking about their intimate lives. I would tend to regard them as untrustworthy. OE
Lookingforward Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Hmmm - I get the impression that America is pretty uptight in many regards about sexual matters, despite the image Hollywood tries to portray. Here people seem far less inhibited - in both doing, and discussing. People perv openly in office situations - among mixed (gender) company - despite policies on sexual harassment, and if anyone finds graphic discussions on sex embarrassing, chances are they'll be teased for being prudish, and would be wise to excuse themselves when they see the conversation taking a turn in that direction. There is definitely a hypocrisy disconnect here that one ignores at their peril...... there are many things americans aren't straight up front about.
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