Lights Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 I'm finally at my wits' end, for whatever the hell they've ever been worth. Every single issue I've tried to fight through all these years still leaves me entirely stuck. All I see is either pain or temporary deferral of pain. For anyone here who's had good experiences with dating coaches or the like: where would I find out who would be worth hiring as a dating coach? I do not know how to set up interviews for this sort of thing.
Jilly Bean Posted May 31, 2008 Posted May 31, 2008 Yes - try the ones at the Mars/Venus site (the John Gray books). I talked to one once - she was very understanding, supportive yet guiding.
Author Lights Posted June 2, 2008 Author Posted June 2, 2008 Yes - try the ones at the Mars/Venus site (the John Gray books). I talked to one once - she was very understanding, supportive yet guiding. Thanks, Jilly Bean. How effective was the instruction, in your opinion?
DunnoWhat Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Tyler Durden is the best IMO. He teaches you not only how to attract women but how to attract women by becoming a naturally more attractive person. In other words change yourself from the inside out.
Jilly Bean Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Thanks, Jilly Bean. How effective was the instruction, in your opinion? I would say it was pretty good. Of course, they following the JG principles, so if you don't agree with those to begin with (which I do!), then you might it a waste. Pick up Mars and Venus on a Date - fascinating read, and gives some wonderful dating insight.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Tyler Durden is the best IMO. He teaches you not only how to attract women but how to attract women by becoming a naturally more attractive person. In other words change yourself from the inside out. That is an excellent suggestion! Tyler Durden is VERY COOL! A lot of what he describes is basic common sense and psychology and it promotes a healthy self-esteem while creating possibilites to also attract healthy human beings. So different from what all those opportunistic masogynistic nerds like David Deangelo and the likes have to profess. Their only purpose is to take advantage of men with low self esteem by promoting more hostility in them which is expressed in the way of mistreatment towards women. Why would anyone even want to attract the type of human being that enjoys being disrespected in order to find attraction? It is toxic all around. But Tyler Durden uses common sense to help you be the best that you can be in every situation, basically tells you to BE YOURSELF and believe in yourself despite what others say works for them, since everything in life starts from that.
MJR Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Tyler Durden is a plagiarist who looks and sounds like a regular to Star Trek conventions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boXH-YhJp_s Lights, there is nothing you need to learn that is worth hundreds to thousands of dollars of your money, which is what you can expect to pay for consultation. I've known people who did this for a living or on the side and I think it's borderline scam. First, there is very little they can teach you that isn't already widely available for free, for a few bucks in a book or over a few drinks with a friend who does well with the opposite sex. In this respect, you're only going to end up paying these coaches big bucks for their own personal opinion on things. Second, the motivational techniques they use to provoke you into taking action is the same underlying message you can get for .99 cents at Blockbuster video via feel good movies with messages like, "You only live once" and "If you want something, you have to reach out and grab it." Just watch the video clip above and you'll get the jist of what I mean. Finally, what you're actually paying all that money for is to have that hired friend to tell you to "Go do it. Go talk to that guy or girl over there right now." Hell. For the price of a few martinis I'll teach you everything I know and then shove your ass in the direction of someone who interests you. I can save you a fortune.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Lights, there is nothing you need to learn that is worth hundreds to thousands of dollars of your money, which is what you can expect to pay for consultation. I've known people who did this for a living or on the side and I think it's borderline scam. First, there is very little they can teach you that isn't already widely available for free, for a few bucks in a book or over a few drinks with a friend who does well with the opposite sex. In this respect, you're only going to end up paying these coaches big bucks for their own personal opinion on things. Second, the motivational techniques they use to provoke you into taking action is the same underlying message you can get for .99 cents at Blockbuster video via feel good movies with messages like, "You only live once" and "If you want something, you have to reach out and grab it." Just watch the video clip above and you'll get the jist of what I mean. Finally, what you're actually paying all that money for is to have that hired friend to tell you to "Go do it. Go talk to that guy or girl over there right now." Hell. For the price of a few martinis I'll teach you everything I know and then shove your ass in the direction of someone who interests you. I can save you a fortune. That's fine but if you don't have a strong enough foundation it is a good place to start. Plus you don't have to spend a penny on him just go to his blog he has enough info there to get people started. Finally, what you're actually paying all that money for is to have that hired friend to tell you to "Go do it. Go talk to that guy or girl over there right now." As trite as that notion may be to someone seasoned and experienced as yourself MJR, you'd be surprised how many people can't grasp or understand that concept.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Tyler Durden is a plagiarist who looks and sounds like a regular to Star Trek conventions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boXH-YhJp_s By the way on the topic of that link you provided, I attend a lot of corporate events and networking confrences due to the nature of my job and let me tell you the same ideas discussed there are all basic principals that are being taught at these confrences to stay abreast of the corporate world's needs. I don't see how you could dismiss him and call him a plaigiarist, I mean all his ideas are transferrable and of course are not new concepts, but they would be new to those who lack them.
MJR Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 That's fine but if you don't have a strong enough foundation it is a good place to start. Plus you don't have to spend a penny on him just go to his blog he has enough info there to get people started. True, but a blog isn't date coaching. I'm talking about the seminars, phone consultations and that sort of thing, which is what I assume the thread is about. Would you pay $2000 for a Tyler Durdin seminar to learn what you can get out of a business seminar your employer pays for? Sometimes even pays you for that time you're there? As trite as that notion may be to someone seasoned and experienced as yourself MJR, you'd be surprised how many people can't grasp or understand that concept. That's the thing. It's not as complicated as a psycho-anaylisis that many people make it out to be. It has nothing to do with being seasoned or experienced because there really is no concept to grasp or understand. You either go over and say hello or you don't. I just think it's ironic that so many people choose avoidance, thus lonliness when faced with the possibility of rejection, despite the fact that when all is said and done they ultimately feel rejected all of the time exactly because they're lonely.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I just think it's ironic that so many people choose avoidance, thus lonliness when faced with the possibility of rejection, despite the fact that when all is said and done they ultimately feel rejected exactly because they're lonely. Actually it's not ironic at all...it's called not believing in yourself to the point that your fears will paralize you. If you don't believe in your capabilities and you're a normal human being with many virtues and idiosyncracies like ALL of us are, but something is holding you back then you might need some guidance in terms of how to tap into that special you. Others NEED to see that special you before they can truly appreciate you. Ok so you may end up spending $2000 of your earned money, if it will help you improve yourself as a human being what is the drawback? I mean most people throw away $2000 in a few months on going out and boozing it up or whatever other useless means of entertainment as a means to stimulate self-confidence to make themsleves feel better so what is $2000 as an investement in the grand scheme of things to improve who are? still don't see anything wrong with the picture personally I wouldn't fault someone for wanting to progress but that's just me.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 True, but a blog isn't date coaching. I'm talking about the seminars, phone consultations and that sort of thing, which is what I assume the thread is about. Would you pay $2000 for a Tyler Durdin seminar to learn what you can get out of a business seminar your employer pays for? Sometimes even pays you for that time you're there? My employer makes BIG money from the attendees that show up at our events when we host them. A lot of our events cater to executives and higher ups from across the country and though the topics that are discussed at these confrences are usually compelling in terms of trends and where the business world is headed the observation is time and time again that the speakers that end up presenting about social change and the psychology behind these changes are the most engaging to the attendees since anyone can read about corporate trends but to delve into an indepth look of what the mentality behind these movements is, people pay good money for that. A person heading a company wouldn't dream of not staying a breast of what is moving business to save a buck or two because they feel they already know it all.
MJR Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Tomcat, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to fault anyone for trying to make progress in their lives or even for throwing a little money towards the effort. I also understand what you mean in the differences of engagement between reading words on a page and in the flesh. What I'm trying to point out here is that the huge investment isn't necessary to obtain the goods on this front. What we're talking about here is basic human chemistry. It only takes a few minutes to realize if we have it with someone. Yet so many people complicate the process to the point that there's actually a company that charges $2000 per month for membership where they sample your DNA and set you up on blind dates with so your called matches. Why even bother with that when you can figure out if there's chemistry there on a $10 coffee date? Dating sites charge 30 or 40 dollars a month promising you'll find chemistry with someone through their computer algorithm. It's absurd because no matter how you slice it or tackle the issue, you're not only going to have to talk and interact with people but you're going to have to do it without a guarantee that it will work out. Nobody needs to spend two, five, ten thousand dollars plus to come to that realization. Nobody. As for the paralyzing fears, all that I can say of it is that it usually comes from irrational expectations. Most men I've known with this problem approach women as if everything depends on how he acts. They think that every woman is a possibility so long as he doesn't screw it up, and that if he only knew how to behave, he could find great success with women. It doesn't really work that way. I'm sure you understand clearly that people are dynamic. We have likes and dislikes and they often clash. There are men who like slim women and others who have that chubby fetish. There are women who like classy men and other who adore dumb jocks. There are people who are attracted to high intellect and others who find it tediously boring. Some women like the shy ones and others like them bold. Each one of us, whatever we are, have our own pool of "groupies", so to speak, who are into what we are all about... and then there's everyone else. And this is why everyone experiences rejection no matter how good they may be with the opposite sex. Every time we approach someone new, we are rolling the dice to see if this person is one of our kind or not. It truly is a numbers game of chance. I find more failure than I do success, despite that I have what would be considered a normal dating life. Rejection is the biggest chunk of the experience for all of us, especially those who do well because they're interacting with more people. The point here is that men often do not need to learn how to overcome rejection with slick skills and great knowledge to find their confidence. What they need is to get out there and interact enough so that there odds of success, the odds of meeting someone who is into our thing, increases. It will be awkward and stressful at first for anyone, no matter how much you spend, how many books you've read, or who coached you. It's all the same thing in the end: interacting. The rejection never ends. If someone truly feels the need to spend thousands of dollars just to learn that, then by all means let them have at it. I'm not going to stand in the way. I'm just trying to point things out here.
Tomcat33 Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 I can't argue with anything you said in your post I agree with you. Except for this: As for the paralyzing fears, all that I can say of it is that it usually comes from irrational expectations. Most men I've known with this problem approach women as if everything depends on how he acts. They think that every woman is a possibility so long as he doesn't screw it up, and that if he only knew how to behave, he could find great success with women. Sometimes men do screw up a good posibility in actions a lone. The chemistry could be there and the connection could be solid but he does or says stuff that turns a woman off. so yes I see what you are saying that having the "perfect" attitude alone is NOT going to make a woman you are interested in fall for you, but on the contrary some wrong moves CAN turn off a woman that was otherwise could have been quite smittened with a guy. Also The point here is that men often do not need to learn how to overcome rejection with slick skills and great knowledge to find their confidence. What they need is to get out there and interact enough so that there odds of success, the odds of meeting someone who is into our thing, increases. It will be awkward and stressful at first for anyone, no matter how much you spend, how many books you've read, or who coached you. It's all the same thing in the end: interacting. The rejection never ends. While I totally agree that it is a numbers game and the rejection most definitely never ends and that it does get easier over time to deal with that rejection, you have to admit there are people that have more of a knack for this kind of thing than others. It's like jobs, some people are better in a lab analysing cultures and wortking out formulas and wouldn't dream of having to spend their days interacting with other human beings when they could be knee deep in microscopes and incubators, let alone having to sell something to someone. While others prefer to pound the pavement interacting with people looking for new business oporutnities by selling a product they believe in, they THRIVE on rejection because it only makes them work harder. So dating is like sales, you are selling yourself, the more people know about you the better chance you have of peaking someone's interest. But some people are just not cut out to sell, or at least don't have the same drive as someone who was born to do it, and I am not saying you can't make a sales person out of anyone, you prob can. So for some it has to start somewhere and coaching can provide a nice little push. Of course the rest is up to the individual. Again I would not discourage anyone from taking an active role in trying to better their situation, even if it involves considerable amount of money. I would recommend shopping around (which the OP seems to be doing in terms of collecting feedback from others) But I think if you are willing to pay money you are quite seriously about learning new things that can help improve your situation and you will also want to put your "investment" to good use...
MJR Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Sometimes men do screw up a good posibility in actions a lone. The chemistry could be there and the connection could be solid but he does or says stuff that turns a woman off. so yes I see what you are saying that having the "perfect" attitude alone is NOT going to make a woman you are interested in fall for you, but on the contrary some wrong moves CAN turn off a woman that was otherwise could have been quite smittened with a guy. You're right. But these awkward judgements, missteps and mistakes correct themselves in time with comfort and familiarity, which comes with repetition. This is exactly what a coach will do. He or she will make you go out there and interact over and over and over again until you eventually grow comfortable with it and begin to succeed. It doesn't matter where a man is coming from: how socially awkward he is or how large his anxiety is. Interaction is the inevitable. Shoveling out money for a push doesn't make it any easier. So dating is like sales, you are selling yourself, the more people know about you the better chance you have of peaking someone's interest. But some people are just not cut out to sell, or at least don't have the same drive as someone who was born to do it, and I am not saying you can't make a sales person out of anyone, you prob can. So for some it has to start somewhere and coaching can provide a nice little push. Of course the rest is up to the individual. That all depends on what you're selling. Some things sell themselves while other things couldn't even be given away. If you're a walking social disaster, learning how to sell a disaster isn't the best option. In doing so, it can be a very long and complicated endeavor that will yield a phenomenal string of failures; It's a very hard journey. But good conversation, humor, flirtation...these things practically sell themselves, none of which are possible without comfort. That's where it all begins, which cycles back into my previous statement.
Author Lights Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 That is an excellent suggestion! Tyler Durden is VERY COOL! ... But Tyler Durden uses common sense to help you be the best that you can be in every situation, basically tells you to BE YOURSELF and believe in yourself despite what others say works for them, since everything in life starts from that. Hi Tomcat, isn't Tyler Durden a movie character? I've always been myself. But the results of having been such have been excruciatingly nasty. A lot of what he describes is basic common sense and psychology and it promotes a healthy self-esteem while creating possibilites to also attract healthy human beings. I suppose that's good. How well has it worked for you? I would say it was pretty good. Of course, they following the JG principles, so if you don't agree with those to begin with (which I do!), then you might it a waste. Pick up Mars and Venus on a Date - fascinating read, and gives some wonderful dating insight. Thanks, Jilly Bean. I'll look that up. Lights, there is nothing you need to learn that is worth hundreds to thousands of dollars of your money, which is what you can expect to pay for consultation. I've known people who did this for a living or on the side and I think it's borderline scam. First, there is very little they can teach you that isn't already widely available for free, for a few bucks in a book or over a few drinks with a friend who does well with the opposite sex. In this respect, you're only going to end up paying these coaches big bucks for their own personal opinion on things. Which such books would you recommend? I don't have any friends who have accomplished what I have sought to accomplish. Even if I had immediate direct access to someone who was identifiable as knowledgeable in this area, I'm still too badly hurt to trust just anyone in person to speak too openly of something as painful as this. (That's why for now I've been asking advice on the net.) You either go over and say hello or you don't. Actually, one of the issues I've been having is how to get an actual response to something as simple as a hello. Maybe I should have been clearer earlier; from coaching I wasn't so much looking for motivational tactics, but rather ways of making improvements in all areas of my dating life [or more properly, my particularly evil lack thereof].
MJR Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Which such books would you recommend? I don't have any friends who have accomplished what I have sought to accomplish. Even if I had immediate direct access to someone who was identifiable as knowledgeable in this area, I'm still too badly hurt to trust just anyone in person to speak too openly of something as painful as this. (That's why for now I've been asking advice on the net.) All of them. Never put stock into a single book. There's good stuff and crap in each one. I have a bit torrent program called uTorrent. I think it was $30 or so to set up, I don't remember, but you can download tons of books from there for free after that. The only individual I personally believe is almost always a good source of information on this topic, bar none, is a woman: Victoria Zdrok, who often goes by the name "Dr. Z". Very intelligent. Earned her first degree at 18, has a PHD in psychology and was a Penthouse Playmate of the year. On a side note, do you care to ellaborate on what badly hurt means? Actually, one of the issues I've been having is how to get an actual response to something as simple as a hello. Maybe I should have been clearer earlier; from coaching I wasn't so much looking for motivational tactics, but rather ways of making improvements in all areas of my dating life [or more properly, my particularly evil lack thereof]. Most of what's available covers all aspects of the dating life, be it a book, a forum or personal coaching. You're typically going to get a little of everything no matter where you turn.
Author Lights Posted June 3, 2008 Author Posted June 3, 2008 The only individual I personally believe is almost always a good source of information on this topic, bar none, is a woman: Victoria Zdrok, who often goes by the name "Dr. Z". Very intelligent. Earned her first degree at 18, has a PHD in psychology and was a Penthouse Playmate of the year. Thanks! I'll look that up.
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