jimbob96 Posted May 29, 2008 Posted May 29, 2008 Hi. New member; signed up looking for some advice. I am not a kid and was a netizen before there was a web. Some time back, I joined a social networking site and started chatting with women I met there. Over a period of time, I met and formed online friendships with a lot of different women. Even now, I still chat with a number of them. For me, it was entertainment and a way to deal with some changes in my personal life that had left me depressed and lonesome. This went on for awhile, then I met...her. Now neither she nor I had particularly been hunting or expecting to meet someone online; she particularly had promised herself she would avoid that. I myself had been hunting, yes, but I was on that particular site just for fun and looking for some local hookups to use as FWB. She and I hit it off almost immediately. You know how this goes; I don't need to detail it. Suffice it to say that I am a crusty old curmudgeon who is very experienced, and who is having an experience unlike any I have ever had in my entire life. The personality match between us appears to be outstanding, and what we both need and want seems to be totally complementary. Now, she is considerably younger than I am and she is a professional model and travels a lot around north america for photo shoots. I am an independent consultant and, though I need to stay near a major metropolitan area in order to obtain work, I have a schedule that is as flexible as I need it to be. So the logistics of traveling and meeting are easily dealt with by both of us. Further, given how she makes money, there are some specific advantages to her if she were to move to my area. We both recognize that fact. As I got to know her, I learned a lot about her background and her life, of course, and she learned about mine. Much of her background reads like a cheap horror novel; she has been subjected to a lot of abuse as a child and young adult. A consequence of this is that she has stumbled from relationship disaster to relationship disaster as a young adult due, mostly, to an inability to recognize the danger signs. She is intelligent; she recognizes this and is determined to change direction. I represent a big part of that change in direction for her since I am unlike what she has known before. I have been able to advise her in some circumstances, and she has listened - and has therefore become much more successful in the recent past in steering clear of disasters. Also, it does happen that some of her background has resulted in public records (with her as victim) that can be accessed, so I have been able to verify the truth of enough of this that I am convinced of the truth of all of this. At the present time, I am satisfied that she is truthful, and emotionally stable, and pretty much who she claims to be. I am not interested in a "project" or in establishing a relationship with a young woman where I occupy a superior position as guidance counselor. However, I do not think this is a serious risk; she is mature enough that something like this won't happen if I choose to avoid it. About a month and a half ago, she volunteered to come visit me. She had three shoots coming up that had her doing a lot of traveling, and she wanted to come visit me for an indefinite period after the third shoot. Of course, I agreed. I offered her the guest bedroom; she told me she wanted to sleep with me. Right about the end of her second shoot, as she was about to leave for her third shoot, a family emergency came up that caused her to cancel the third shoot and head straight home. This of course also canceled her trip here. As of now, the emergency has been dealt with, and I am trying to get her to reschedule the trip. But she has had second thoughts. Much discussion has turned up something that I should have recognized sooner but didn't. Basically, she has trouble trusting, at all. This all relates back to her history and, when talking to me about it, she is able to acknowledge that much of her lack of trust directed toward me is both inconsistent and irrational. The specific problem is that a few years ago she met with a fellow she had been chatting with for a long time, became comfortable with him, and he then drugged her, beat her, raped her, and left her pregnant (there are public records of this...). She later miscarried. It turns out that he had lied to her about everything (including his name and where he lived) and consequently he has not been caught. So, after volunteering to come and visit me, she had second thoughts and the family emergency (which I do believe to be real) provided her with a convenient excuse. She is afraid. I have recognized that and was able to cope with it. Against that, she keeps turning to me. She calls me daily, and we talk for anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. I can deal with the fear; I understand that. But I had misinterpreted the reason for her fear; I had thought that it arose from confusion about her feelings toward me - and that confusion is certainly there; her response to me has been profound and I am someone who is completely outside of her experience - and not because of the difference in our ages, but because of who I am compared to who she has known. In fact, the fear arises from a lack of trust of me, simply because we have met over the internet. Although she defensively tried to avoid answering me, when I pinned her down she did acknowledge that if we had met face to face (perhaps in a bar), this issue would not be between us. She overcame her lack of trust enough to volunteer to come visit me, but in the time between the decision and the event, she had second thoughts and the family problem proved to be a convenient excuse. I am not sure what to do about this. Just keep talking to her is what comes to mind, and if it were just a matter of fear and confusion that wouldn't trouble me. However, in a long chat last weekend the "lack of trust" issue came out - she had been trying to avoid telling me that, but I caught her off-guard and got an honest answer. An inability to trust is a serious problem for a person; I do not know how to solve it and I cannot advise her because any such advice is self-serving and therefore suspect. She does recognize the inconsistency, irrationality, and illogic of her position with respect to me, and she recognizes that she needs to let go if she wants things to proceed. The biggest problem right now is that my recognition of the magnitude of this problem, directed at me, has shaken me and is beginning to have a corrosive effect on me. My intellect recognizes the issue; my emotions are having a far more visceral and much less pleasant response. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might cope with this; both my response and hers?
motive2002 Posted May 29, 2008 Posted May 29, 2008 Not sure what to advise here. Are you planning on meeting in person at some point? She said she'd rather sleep with you than in the guest room, so I'm guessing there's some type of romantic interest? One thing to keep in mind is that it is the internet after all. You don't know her any better than a complete stranger, despite how much chatting you've done online. This whole trust thing could be a deep seeded issue, but she needs to take a chance sometime... and nobody stays alone forever because of those issues. OR, it could all be smoke and mirrors. Maybe she loves your attention, but doesn't want to take it to the next level. Maybe she thought she wanted to meet you in person then changed her mind. In other words, you may be in the "friend zone". Never have I met more flaky people than on the internet. my point of view is a bit cynical from past experience, but maybe that's the point of view you needed to hear?
TMichaels Posted May 29, 2008 Posted May 29, 2008 jimbob96, If she's so paranoid and your consultant work is such that you can arrange to travel just about anywhere when need be, the next time she has an out-of-town photo shoot, why don't you arrange to have dinner with her one night? Tell her you understand her fears, but you'd like to show her that not all guys are ogres like the ones she's had the misfortune to know. Tell her it's dinner -- dinner only -- as in a date. Just a chance for the two of you to see if whether you are as comfortable in each other's company in real life as you are on-line. No expectations or pressure other than that. I'm suggesting an out-of-town meeting as that way neither one of you are as vulnerable in terms of each other knowing where each other lives and/or feel compelled/uneasy having to have the other person "invade your space." I WOULD NOT, no matter how tempting or willing either of you may be, have sex on this first date. Quite frankly, I find it odd that she even suggested it when she was going to come visit you since she has such trust issues, but I have a feeling that this may be part of the reason why she's gotten such trouble before. If she turns your invitation down, then I would give serious thought to moving on, unless you want to be a perennial shoulder to lean on (or something worse). She says she wasn't looking for anyone, but she was on a social networking site -- and with her alleged history of relationship problems, that sounds a bit "off" to me. I guess what I'm saying is that it sounds like you have been very helpful, patient and understanding with her, but if the relationship is going to be anything more than that, she has to step up to the plate and at least dip her toe in the water. If she's not willing to do that, a) you can't fix her, nor should it be your job to do so; b) she's not who she says she is and has something more to hide. That's my take on it, anyway. Hope it helps! And, welcome to the forum, jimbob96. Best, TMichaels
Author jimbob96 Posted May 29, 2008 Author Posted May 29, 2008 motive2002 - While it is certainly possible that she has deceived me, I have a significant body of evidence that says "not". The majority of our communication these days is via telephone; we do chat because sometimes that is more convenient, but my cell phone bills (and hers) have become astronomical. I don't care about that though. And as far as "romantic interest" goes, then yes, I would say that is certainly likely (need emoticon for irony and understatement). Fact is that she appears to have fallen for me. Further, I do not tend to cooperate in my own deception and for her to have successfully deceived me substantially over this period of time would require her to be a lot smarter than I am. And, at the risk of how this might sound, practically no one is a LOT smarter than I am. So, basically, I am pretty much satisfied as to her bonafides. TMichaels - Her stated purpose for being on that social networking site was to find chat buddies. She told me on the phone that she travels so much that chatting with people while she is in her motel room in the evening is a good form of entertainment for her. She also told me that she used to do that, but stopped after the incident I related in my first post. Now, time has passed and she was just starting to chat again. The basic problem is who she meets where she lives. The population there fits a particular blue-collar, small town demographic and her choices seem to be somewhat limited. Given her history, she seems to be drawn to abusive men and her previous relationships have been marked by control and manipulation, not trust. She actually is quite bright, but she is almost totally lacking in insight into herself and her motives - a consequence of trauma, I think. She is getting a lot better at that lately due to my influence. But I do believe that she had an agenda which she had not admitted to herself when she signed up for that site. I suspect that she actually was looking for a man, some man who was very different than what she was routinely encountering where she lives. Also, as a model and an extraordinarily beautiful girl, she has the continuous problem of trusting the motives of any man she meets while she is on the road. She was looking for a way around that when she found me. At least, that is what I think she was doing. Her last steady boyfriend (she refers to him as her "ex") and she broke up about a year and a half ago, after he beat her into the hospital. She talks about that relationship with me and what comes out of it is that she used sex to keep him settled down; he would start to get mad, she would drag him to bed, he wouldn't usually beat her. The subtext here is easily seen; her relationships are about power, manipulation, control. And she knows this is wrong. Since they broke up, she has periodically gotten herself some drama by permitting herself to be picked up occasionally. For awhile she said she did it because "I like sex", but I had already figured out that this was not a true statement; I had decided that she was doing it because she was looking for love, and going about it the wrong way. In the same phone conversation where she told me she wanted to come here, she spent about an hour trying to pin me down on what I wanted and expected out of a girlfriend, particularly with regard to sex. She had tried this several times before, but I always avoided the topic. I tried to avoid the topic because I considered it to be premature, because I did not want to ask her for what it is that I would expect (fidelity) given that we had not met, and because I was not willing to be bound myself to what I would normally offer in response (that being fidelity) because (a) we had not met and (b) even if we had, we wouldn't see enough of each other to keep me satisfied. Nonetheless, she finally did get me to tell her what I would want, and she freely offered it to me, agreeing without my really asking to stay away from other men. To the best of my knowledge and belief, she is standing on that even though she canceled the visit on me. Very recently, in a "trust" conversation, she did confess the truth about her sexual attitude - and she volunteered it when we were talking about something else: she would let a guy pick her up so she could have the feeling of being cared for at least for a little while, while not having to worry about him and his demands the next day. So I was proven right; she was looking for love in the wrong places. So there are some realizations and revelations going on here; she IS progressing. She doesn't want to do that anymore (casual sex) and promising to be faithful to me provides her with a "hook" that she can use to help keep herself out of trouble...for awhile anyway. That I am the "hook" does certainly say something about her attitude toward me. So, she confuses sex and love - I knew that. Her offer to sleep with me while here is one that I had considered carefully and had not totally decided about; I would have suspended my decision until she and I had had some "face time" so that I could decide whether this confusion would carry over to me. Quite clearly, she wants to change her life, does not know how, and sees me as the way to accomplish that. Along the way, I stand to gain quite a lot that I want too. The thing is that I refuse to do a relationship that depends on power and control. I want one that has trust at the center of it, and she knows that, and I have told her that if she won't trust me, then we have nothing. Her response is that "it is a lot to wrap her head around, but she is really trying to". I have in fact offered to travel to one of her shoots to meet her for dinner. She has not said no, but has put forth some really good reasons why that is not a particularly good idea. Her typical day goes like this: her manager drags her out of bed at about 4 AM, and it is off for her morning workout, then a quick breakfast. Into makeup by 6 AM for an hour or two, then off to the shoot, which commonly runs all day ending any time after typically 6PM. Then, dinner and bed. So if I make such a trip I see her at the end of a long day for a short time. I could keep her up, but then she catches it from her manager because fatigue shows and makes makeup harder. So, I don't know. No, I do NOT want to be a perennial shoulder to cry on. I am willing to mentor and counsel, but only as part of something else, and also only in a circumstance where that is a steadily declining role where I am not (or, at worst, not for long) an authority figure. I want a partner, not a student or a child. And, yes. I can't fix her. I can guide her but not nearly so well when it is so obviously self-serving even if it is the right guidance. To this point she has been extremely willing to be guided and to listen, which actually is why this trust thing hit me so hard when I finally recognized it; I had thought we were past that. I don't *think* she is hiding anything else of any substance; I do believe I have it all. At least, I have not recognized any evidence of substantial concealment and on a couple of occasions when she has tried it, I have spotted it and rooted it out right away. Yes. She has to step up. To a certain extend she has. She considers the fact that she has even told me about her past to be a substantial mark of trust by her to me; she never talks about that, she says. So, I don't know. Maybe I just need to continue to be patient with her. Maybe. But this recognition of how little she actually trusts me...is corrosive... edit: I should also comment that she is absolutely adamant that she wants me to stand by her. She is indeed changing her life, and in that regard she has become totally dependent upon me. She is very afraid I will leave her, and she is afraid that if I do she will backslide. The irony of this is that, if this trust issue is settled I'll never leave her but if if isn't settled I probably will.
Author jimbob96 Posted May 30, 2008 Author Posted May 30, 2008 TMichaels, your comment that she was paranoid sent me off on a tangent, and I re-read what I have written. She: - is adamant that I stand by her - is totally dependent upon me to do so - clearly has faith in my ability to change her life - offered me what I would want from a GF without my asking, and seems to be standing by it - has honestly told me of her real sexual motivation, at least WRT pickups - has engaged in a number of other behaviors that, to me, spell "trust" These are reasons why I didn't believe that trust was an issue, and I now wonder if I am wrong to think it is. Paranoid behavior, now... The event in her past was VERY traumatic; that is obvious. Her current reaction toward me WRT meeting is clearly irrational, and I was able to pin her down to where she admitted it was because we met on the 'net. Much of her behavior, when looked at from a slight distance, does certainly indicate trust. Paranoid behavior I can deal with, I think, particularly when there is no rational basis for it in the present circumstance.
TMichaels Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 The basic problem is who she meets where she lives. The population there fits a particular blue-collar, small town demographic and her choices seem to be somewhat limited. Given her history, she seems to be drawn to abusive men and her previous relationships have been marked by control and manipulation, not trust. Then why hasn't she moved? But I do believe that she had an agenda which she had not admitted to herself when she signed up for that site. I suspect that she actually was looking for a man, some man who was very different than what she was routinely encountering where she lives. Also, as a model and an extraordinarily beautiful girl, she has the continuous problem of trusting the motives of any man she meets while she is on the road. She was looking for a way around that when she found me. Though you've said "you're smarter than the average bear," I'd be careful about devoting so much time analyzing her. It sounds a bit like you're rationalizing/justifying her motivations and actions which just happen to conveniently work back to you. At least, that is what I think she was doing. LOL... That's probably a safer and more prudent way to classify things. Her last steady boyfriend (she refers to him as her "ex") and she broke up about a year and a half ago, after he beat her into the hospital. She talks about that relationship with me and what comes out of it is that she used sex to keep him settled down; he would start to get mad, she would drag him to bed, he wouldn't usually beat her. The subtext here is easily seen; her relationships are about power, manipulation, control... Not to mention a huge lack of self-confidence and self-worth... Since they broke up, she has periodically gotten herself some drama by permitting herself to be picked up occasionally. For awhile she said she did it because "I like sex", but I had already figured out that this was not a true statement; I had decided that she was doing it because she was looking for love, and going about it the wrong way. Perhaps. Sometimes people who are exceptionally attractive outside feel less than attractive on the inside. So, they "work" the only strength they think they have -- their looks. It's a game that's doomed to failure, because the casual sex leaves them empty and hollow, knocks their sense of value and self-worth even more and confirms they aren't worthy. It's an endless cycle. In the same phone conversation where she told me she wanted to come here, she spent about an hour trying to pin me down on what I wanted and expected out of a girlfriend, particularly with regard to sex. She had tried this several times before, but I always avoided the topic. I tried to avoid the topic because I considered it to be premature, because I did not want to ask her for what it is that I would expect (fidelity) given that we had not met, and because I was not willing to be bound myself to what I would normally offer in response (that being fidelity) because (a) we had not met and (b) even if we had, we wouldn't see enough of each other to keep me satisfied. Good for you. At least one of you is thinking clearly. Nonetheless, she finally did get me to tell her what I would want, and she freely offered it to me, agreeing without my really asking to stay away from other men. To the best of my knowledge and belief, she is standing on that even though she canceled the visit on me. Her promise of fidelity could be all smoke and mirrors, but sounds to me she's got enough issues that that isn't the reason why she chickened out. Very recently, in a "trust" conversation, she did confess the truth about her sexual attitude - and she volunteered it when we were talking about something else: she would let a guy pick her up so she could have the feeling of being cared for at least for a little while, while not having to worry about him and his demands the next day. So I was proven right; she was looking for love in the wrong places. Yes, but I think it's more than that. I don't think she knows WHAT it is she's looking for or what *love* really means. How old is she? How old are you? So there are some realizations and revelations going on here; she IS progressing. That would be an expected and appropriate comment from someone who was her professional therapist. Not sure it's a great observation for someone wanting to pursue an equal, healthy relationship with a life partner, though. She doesn't want to do that anymore (casual sex) and promising to be faithful to me provides her with a "hook" that she can use to help keep herself out of trouble...for awhile anyway. That I am the "hook" does certainly say something about her attitude toward me. As long as you don't mind being what sounds like a dose of Methadone, I agree. So, she confuses sex and love - I knew that. Her offer to sleep with me while here is one that I had considered carefully and had not totally decided about; I would have suspended my decision until she and I had had some "face time" so that I could decide whether this confusion would carry over to me. Men and women look at love and sex differently. Generally, women have to feel loved before they have sex. Most men, have sex to feel loved. In some ways, her attitude about sex is more typically male rather than female. Probably because love makes her "too vulnerable" and initiating sex allows her to have the upper hand. It's a wall she uses to keep people away, but for a few fleeting moments there's some sort of "connection" with a human being for her which is better in her mind than being alone. Quite clearly, she wants to change her life, does not know how, and sees me as the way to accomplish that. Along the way, I stand to gain quite a lot that I want too. The thing is that I refuse to do a relationship that depends on power and control. I want one that has trust at the center of it, and she knows that, and I have told her that if she won't trust me, then we have nothing. Her response is that "it is a lot to wrap her head around, but she is really trying to". While it's good you recognize a relationship based on trust is healthier than one based on power/manipulation/control, be careful. You realize, don't you, that by her essentially handing over her life to you to straigthen out, a transfer of power/control/responsibility has occured? I have in fact offered to travel to one of her shoots to meet her for dinner. She has not said no, but has put forth some really good reasons why that is not a particularly good idea. Her typical day goes like this: her manager drags her out of bed at about 4 AM, and it is off for her morning workout, then a quick breakfast. Into makeup by 6 AM for an hour or two, then off to the shoot, which commonly runs all day ending any time after typically 6PM. Then, dinner and bed. So if I make such a trip I see her at the end of a long day for a short time. I could keep her up, but then she catches it from her manager because fatigue shows and makes makeup harder. Fair enough. But is it imperative that when she's done with the shoot that she immediately return home? What difference would it make if she hopped on a flight that night, or the next morning? The cost of a hotel room for a night? I guess what I am saying is that while I understand the difficulties of her carving out time for you while "she's on the clock," the obstacles aren't insurmountable, and in fact, the solution would be quite simple. Trite but true: "IF there's the will, there's always a way." So, I don't know. No, I do NOT want to be a perennial shoulder to cry on. I am willing to mentor and counsel, but only as part of something else, and also only in a circumstance where that is a steadily declining role where I am not (or, at worst, not for long) an authority figure. I want a partner, not a student or a child. And, yes. I can't fix her. I can guide her but not nearly so well when it is so obviously self-serving even if it is the right guidance. To this point she has been extremely willing to be guided and to listen, which actually is why this trust thing hit me so hard when I finally recognized it; I had thought we were past that. Sorry to be negative, but I'm not sure you'll ever get past it. Sounds like she has some deep-seated issues and even if you are successful in helping her make progress, is that what "role" you really want to play? If you are truly successful, at some point in time it's not inconceivable that you will have done such a good job of "coaching" that she finally will have the backbone to stand on her two feet -- and will do just that -- right out the door. I say this because it sounds like you're pretty self-actualized; she has a lot of growing to do. If/when she does, the dynamic of your relationship will change markedly and while you probably will stay the same, she will have outgrown the relationship that first brought you together. Happens all the time, especially when one half of the couple is "younger" whether that be in chronological or emotional terms. I don't *think* she is hiding anything else of any substance; I do believe I have it all. At least, I have not recognized any evidence of substantial concealment and on a couple of occasions when she has tried it, I have spotted it and rooted it out right away. I don't know. If it were me, I wouldn't want to have to be constantly en garde in order to "smell a rat" and then go to the effort of having to get the other person to admit the truth. The "trust thing" works both ways. You say you want a relationship based on trust and she needs to trust you. But, in reality, you also need to be able to trust her without holding every thought/comment/behavior up to the light to see if it rings true... Yes. She has to step up. To a certain extend she has. She considers the fact that she has even told me about her past to be a substantial mark of trust by her to me; she never talks about that, she says. So, I don't know. Maybe I just need to continue to be patient with her. Maybe. But this recognition of how little she actually trusts me...is corrosive... I'd give it some time, but TBH it doesn't sound very promising. You might need to come to the realization that the two of you were thrown together in a cosmic sort of way so that you *could* help her in her life's journey -- and nothing more. It also may be helpful *for you* to think about why you are so interested in pursuing a relationship with this woman. The "trust and fidelity thing" is fine, but she's not the only woman on earth you can have this with. Might be worth exploring whether on some level it's because she's "a model and an extraordinarily beautiful girl" whom under any other circumstances probably wouldn't have paid much notice to you. IOW, you can't believe your luck, so you are intent on making it work. The fact that you can provide wisdom and guidance is icing on the cake -- and, as you put it "the hook" to keeping the "relationship" alive. Not trying to be harsh, but it wouldn't be the first time why someone has gone down this road... Anyway, best of luck to you. Hope some of this might be of value. All the best, TMichaels
Author jimbob96 Posted May 30, 2008 Author Posted May 30, 2008 TMichaels, thank you for your comments. Generally the comments you have made are things I have already considered. But not all. Specifically: Then why hasn't she moved? Inertia. Not to mention a huge lack of self-confidence and self-worth... Perhaps. Sometimes people who are exceptionally attractive outside feel less than attractive on the inside. So, they "work" the only strength they think they have -- their looks. It's a game that's doomed to failure, because the casual sex leaves them empty and hollow, knocks their sense of value and self-worth even more and confirms they aren't worthy. It's an endless cycle.Well...yes. That seems trivially obvious. Power, control, manipulation are the flip side of lack of self-confidence and low self-worth. That would be an expected and appropriate comment from someone who was her professional therapist. Not sure it's a great observation for someone wanting to pursue an equal, healthy relationship with a life partner, though... As long as you don't mind being what sounds like a dose of Methadone, I agree.Point taken. I do consider her to be emotionally stable, in that she does not seem to be suffering from any organic or functional disorder (mood swings, irrationality, etc) and I have considered that these issues were not too terribly deep. I am actually being forced to reconsider that particular evaluation; at this point I don't know how much is involved in getting past this. Everyone has issues. The question is whether her issues are so pervasive that they will keep her from having a healthy relationship. The jury, at this point, must be considered to be out on that one. Men and women look at love and sex differently. Generally, women have to feel loved before they have sex. Most men, have sex to feel loved. In some ways, her attitude about sex is more typically male rather than female. Probably because love makes her "too vulnerable" and initiating sex allows her to have the upper hand. It's a wall she uses to keep people away, but for a few fleeting moments there's some sort of "connection" with a human being for her which is better in her mind than being alone.I think you are over-generalizing; I will have sex just because it feels good, and because it for a short time relieves the pressure of a drive that I feel ALL the time (that drive being the drive to have sex). I don't necessarily do it to feel loved, and I think I am very typical of a man in that regard. WRT women, I do believe that they are all over the map on that one, though I don't psychoanalyze most of them to figure out why they go to bed with me. What you suggest about this particular girl, though, may have merit. I will have to think about it. While it's good you recognize a relationship based on trust is healthier than one based on power/manipulation/control, be careful. You realize, don't you, that by her essentially handing over her life to you to straigthen out, a transfer of power/control/responsibility has occured?I am aware that she is attempting that. I also am not permitting that, which is to say that I am not accepting any responsibility for her life. What I am doing, in that regard, is functioning as a mentor/counselor and advising her on how best to proceed, while at the same time continually trying to make her face herself. This has worked, so far. She has suffered some serious traumas in her past, and as I became aware of that I decided to focus on making her unblock herself and become more aware of her own motives, then I would trust that she would act appropriately as she became more aware of what she was doing. To this point, that seems to be working, at least mostly. Sorry to be negative, but I'm not sure you'll ever get past it. Sounds like she has some deep-seated issues and even if you are successful in helping her make progress, is that what "role" you really want to play? If you are truly successful, at some point in time it's not inconceivable that you will have done such a good job of "coaching" that she finally will have the backbone to stand on her two feet -- and will do just that -- right out the door. I say this because it sounds like you're pretty self-actualized; she has a lot of growing to do. If/when she does, the dynamic of your relationship will change markedly and while you probably will stay the same, she will have outgrown the relationship that first brought you together. Happens all the time, especially when one half of the couple is "younger" whether that be in chronological or emotional terms.I am very much aware of this possibility, and certainly cannot discount it. Were that to happen, I would have to consider that I had done a good thing under any circumstances. I don't mind at all playing the counselor/mentor role, so long as it isn't permanent and primary. I would expect her to want to benefit from my experience just in the course of things, so I would expect to periodically advise her for so long as we were together. However, I would also expect her to feel free to advise me as well. And, actually, she does do this now in another arena. Presently I am trying to guide her; if I am successful, there will indeed come a time when I no longer have to do that. The problem will really occur if we stay together, but the time never comes when I no longer have to do that. I presently am reevaluating whether her issue with me is a trust issue or a paranoid issue; on balance I would rather deal with paranoid because I would consider it to be much easier to solve permanently. The big problem, for me, is that I no longer am objective about much of this and therefore I need someone else to tell me when I am going off the track, hence my posts here. The thing is that she and I connected before I became aware of these issues. Our ability to communicate with each other has been outstanding from the moment we met. In fact, it has been unusually good. These issues with her only started to surface after we had chatted for awhile, and only after it was becoming obvious to me that she had become interested in me. I considered (and still consider) the possibility that she wanted a father figure in her life, and I it does appear that there is indeed some of that, but mostly what she wants is not that. She does want a type of support and assistance that she simply will not get from someone in her age group, period. Men in her age group simply lack the experience. But she isn't looking for a father, she is looking for a man who can give her what she wants. From my side, I have connected with a personality that I am strongly attracted to. I was attracted before I became aware of these issues. The issues have certainly given me pause, but I viewed them as things that could be dealt with. I am less sure of that now, but we got to where we are because that is how I viewed them. Presuming that these issues are successfully dealt with, I cannot say for sure that she would stay. I strongly suspect that she would, and that opinion is continually run through my own "self-evaluation" filters to make sure (as sure as possible, anyway) that I am not deceiving myself or missing something important and obvious. My basic problem is that, though I am willing to have a sexual relationship with any woman I find attractive (and that is most women), I will only get close to a certain type of woman. I won't bother to detail that; it just isn't relevant. What is relevant is that I don't see what I want in the vast majority of women. I do see it in her. For that reason, I will take some chances and do some work. I had seen what I wanted before I became aware of the issues that exist in the same package, and those issues were only somewhat a deterrent since I have thought they could be dealt with. I would fully expect the dynamic of our relationship to change as she sheds this baggage, but then it becomes a question of what the basis of the relationship really is. Myself, I see a personality that I want, and I will cut down these barriers to reach that personality. These "barriers", as I call them, are not part of the personality; they obstruct the personality. My overall evaluation of her is that she wants who I am as much as what I can do for her; if that is true then she wouldn't leave when this is sorted out. Of course, I cannot be certain of that, and when I consider it from a long-term basis, there is another factor that I have to look very carefully at. You see, I have a daughter that could be her sister. I am 51, she is 24. That does not bother me and for now it does not bother her. For now. But down the road? *shrug* I just don't know. I know a number of people that have done it, over the long haul. I also know a number who have tried and failed. But then, there is that saying: "It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all". And none of us knows what tomorrow will bring, anyway. So I simply evaluate things in the present, and try to figure out whether the current problems can be dealt with. Tomorrow will come soon enough; I can wait for it.
TMichaels Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 TMichaels, thank you for your comments. You're welcome, jimbob96. Always helps to toss around what you're thinking. Sometimes it just gets too crowded in your head. But then, there is that saying: "It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all". And none of us knows what tomorrow will bring, anyway. So I simply evaluate things in the present, and try to figure out whether the current problems can be dealt with. Tomorrow will come soon enough; I can wait for it. Sounds like the ride will be interesting, anyway. Don't hesitate to stop by and share/vent when you feel the need. All the best, TMichaels
zicke Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 You haven't even MET her yet. This is a lot of drama for someone you know only online and over the phone. I mean, in person chemistry is so important. Neither of you know yet if you have that with each other. Talking about feelings and the past and all that creates a false sense of intimacy, intimacy that is truly only garnered from in person contact. Here you are, analyzing this woman, consoling her, asking for her trust, pandering to her issues, and you haven't even met her. She needs a therapist, not a long distance love affair. That isn't even a love affair, to be quite honest. It probably doesn't hurt that she's a model either. I mean, if she were your average woman, you probably would have nipped this in the bud very quickly. And also, for someone who is against meeting someone online, having a profile on a social networking site is quite fishy. How many other chat friends does she have while sitting around in her hotel room? Is she even a model? What agency? Have you seen her work? (other than some pics she copy pasted to you) Can you verify it is in fact her? You are fantasizing about someone you don't even know in real life.
zicke Posted May 30, 2008 Posted May 30, 2008 My basic problem is that, though I am willing to have a sexual relationship with any woman I find attractive (and that is most women), I will only get close to a certain type of woman. I won't bother to detail that; it just isn't relevant. What is relevant is that I don't see what I want in the vast majority of women. You see "it" in her? You have not met her. You are seeing right now maybe some pretty pictures and a lot of emotional drama. Is that what you are looking for that other women don't have? Look, I am not trying to be mean. But, take a step back here and realize that you are investing a lot emotionally in someone you do not know all that well. My question to you is: do you have commitment issues? Because a lot of what you are posting really seems commitment phobic to me. A couple of examples: -Long distance phone relationship with someone who has a ton of drama, a job which requires a ton of travel. -No real world experience with this person, none. -Seeing something that real world women don't have, but this person you never met seems to have. -The distance alone and never meeting screams commitment issues to me. -No real demands on her to actually MEET you. -Very little noise about you meeting her in person, a dinner while she is on a shoot is not a lot of noise. -An apparent large age difference which may make the relationship inappropriate. Why aren't you seeking your contemporaries out? -A lot of investment in someone you do not know---ie:she's the perfect woman for you. Just sayin. 51 is too old for a 24 year old. You must know this.
Author jimbob96 Posted May 31, 2008 Author Posted May 31, 2008 You're welcome, jimbob96. Always helps to toss around what you're thinking. Sometimes it just gets too crowded in your head. Sounds like the ride will be interesting, anyway. Don't hesitate to stop by and share/vent when you feel the need. All the best, TMichaels Well...the truth is that everyone has issues. Everyone. Actually, given what she has had to deal with, it seems to me that she isn't in bad shape at all. To her credit, she recognizes the issues, recognizes the problems they are causing her, and is actively seeking a solution. The problem, of course, is that one of her issues is biting me in the a$$ right now. There is a solution...or there isn't. We shall see.
Author jimbob96 Posted May 31, 2008 Author Posted May 31, 2008 Zicke, you are apparently young and you clearly don't read very well. You start with a false premise, build it out with false logic, and reach a false conclusion. This would seem to suggest that you don't think very well either. I won't bother, except for a few things. If you think you can't get to know someone through extended conversation without being face to face, then there is nothing at all I can say. The idea is so absurd that it doesn't bear any comment. Perhaps you are sufficiently shallow that you'd drop a person if she wasn't attractive, but that merely would reflect your shallowness. I don't work that way. And, finally, there is this: Just sayin. 51 is too old for a 24 year old. You must know this. Really? Present your evidence. Fortunately, I don't need to care what you think. And, if you really think that is true, and it is important, then you have a positive obligation to try to make it a law that says "51 is too old for 24". Of course, if you were to actually attempt to do that, I would shoot you. No kidding. And if you were to attempt to impose your standards on me in a face-to-face meeting, I would beat you senseless. Again, no kidding. Take your bigotry, and go screw up your own life. And for reference, I am caucasian and my ex-wife is asian indian. I've heard it all before from bigots. Didn't bother me then - never heard it from the same bigot twice - and doesn't bother me now.
zicke Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Jimbob, I'm in my 30's, nice try though. This whole situation is a trainwreck and you know it. 51 is too old for a 24 year old. What do you even have in common with a 24 year old? I haven't seen anything in your posts about what you two actually have to talk about other than her continuing drama and your response to it. Beat me senseless? Really, you hit women??? Wow. Just wow. Not only that, you threaten someone who has a valid opinion that you asked for? And Shoot me? Dude, therapy, you might need it more than her. If you cannot take opposing views, might be time to get off the internet. Tough guy. You seem to have some major anger issues bubbling under the surface. I am not the shallow one in this instance. I was merely pointing out if the 24 year old model were a 45 year old overweight woman, you might not be so involved. Your extreme anger in response to my post screams control issues. Which is of course most likely WHY you are interested in inappropriately young women in trouble. Controlling behavior is a huge red flag. Further evidenced by the fact that you cannot abide an opposing view of your fantasy of this "relationship". I do not think that someone can build a true, trusting, loving relationship with someone of the opposite sex over the phone only. Show me evidence that this can happen. I have yet to meet someone in real life who has successfully navigated an online relationship only. Add in drama,a major age gap, and the odds are even less than zero. I am not even going to bother with your bigot statement. You have not MET her. And seemingly, she seems OK with that.
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