Lookingforward Posted June 17, 2008 Posted June 17, 2008 Observer, Your post is eloquent and well thought out, but I don't believe it really applies to this poster. This OW is not the answer to his problems. Though he says he is obsessed with her, he has also said she is emotionally distant, has "power" over him and has told him she doesn't want him to leave his wife and she doesn't want to see him anymore. The vibe I get from those comments and others is that he wants more than she is willing to give and so far she has been unable to get through to him on that. If this guy was single and the focus of the thread was just on his relationship with this woman, I think most of us would be telling him it is an unhealthy, unbalanced relationship and he needs to try harder to move on. But alas, we have the complication here of a wife, marriage, children and a man who is serially looking for happiness through others. By that, I don't mean that he is looking for happy relationships. I feel this poster has some complicated personality issues that cause him to see others as the source of his happiness or unhappiness. He tries to pull good feelings from others without necessarily giving much back in return -- emotionally I mean. Since that isn't a workable solution for the long term, he needs to create new "relationships" on an ongoing basis to try and get more good feelings. I don't think either woman is the solution to Mr. I's problems. That kind of thinking continues to focus his attention on external forces when the real problem is internal. Many of us have advised this poster to sort himself out before he tries to do any relationship work. Some feel he should separate from his family while he does this, others think that isn't necessary. I think some help from his counselor would be beneficial since we don't really have the full story. I think this situation is much more fundamental and troubling than an affair. I think this is about a man that has trouble truly connecting with others on an emotional level. In order to do that, you have to expose your true self and be willing to be honest and open and to care as much about what is in the best interests of the other person as you do about yourself. I don't think Mr I can get there so he gravitates to more easily obtained and superficial feelings in his search for happiness. I think his attention would be best focused on himself rather than continuing to involve and hurt others. Perhaps Mr I should be Mr Insular rather than Mr Independent
Author MrIndependent Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 Observer, Your post is eloquent and well thought out, but I don't believe it really applies to this poster. This OW is not the answer to his problems. Though he says he is obsessed with her, he has also said she is emotionally distant, has "power" over him and has told him she doesn't want him to leave his wife and she doesn't want to see him anymore. The vibe I get from those comments and others is that he wants more than she is willing to give and so far she has been unable to get through to him on that. If this guy was single and the focus of the thread was just on his relationship with this woman, I think most of us would be telling him it is an unhealthy, unbalanced relationship and he needs to try harder to move on. But alas, we have the complication here of a wife, marriage, children and a man who is serially looking for happiness through others. By that, I don't mean that he is looking for happy relationships. I feel this poster has some complicated personality issues that cause him to see others as the source of his happiness or unhappiness. He tries to pull good feelings from others without necessarily giving much back in return -- emotionally I mean. Since that isn't a workable solution for the long term, he needs to create new "relationships" on an ongoing basis to try and get more good feelings. I don't think either woman is the solution to Mr. I's problems. That kind of thinking continues to focus his attention on external forces when the real problem is internal. Many of us have advised this poster to sort himself out before he tries to do any relationship work. Some feel he should separate from his family while he does this, others think that isn't necessary. I think some help from his counselor would be beneficial since we don't really have the full story. I think this situation is much more fundamental and troubling than an affair. I think this is about a man that has trouble truly connecting with others on an emotional level. In order to do that, you have to expose your true self and be willing to be honest and open and to care as much about what is in the best interests of the other person as you do about yourself. I don't think Mr I can get there so he gravitates to more easily obtained and superficial feelings in his search for happiness. I think his attention would be best focused on himself rather than continuing to involve and hurt others. Thanks for your comments smartgirl - glad you're still posting on this. I wouldn't agree with your assessment of me here though. In the situation with the OW, I feel I have given her far more than I have received. I certainly do not have a problem with giving love or connecting on an emotional level with people. In fact, I think I often give too much. In this case she couldn't handle it and backed off. She has her own issues and feels like she has to "match" my input which puts her under pressure and this (combined with all the other negatives such as language, distance and the illicit nature of the A) has taken its toll on the relationship. My problem seems to be why I can't connect on this level to my W and what is holding me/us back. I intend on exploring this issue further with her. Yes I am considering telling her about the A. I know that will be music to most peoples ears! Personally, I am still not sure it is in her best interests.
Author MrIndependent Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 In reading about the scant history regarding your wife that you've disclosed in your threads Mr. I think the reason you feel so unappreciated in your marriage may have something to do with your first affair. I believe your wife may have built a shell around her feelings that you haven't been able to penetrate with all your "good deeds" after-the-fact and this has bred resentment in you. Yes, you've also had to contend with raising two difficult children and have had issues with your parents throughout the course of your marriage but, its been your inability to connect as deeply and passionately with your wife, after demonstrating your attempt at redemption by working hard for your family, that lies at the core of your frustration. Maybe if you'd have invested your time reading books like "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" you might have been able to arm yourself with the information needed to determine the right approach to achieve the closeness you craved with your wife. Instead of having "the talk" you've recently initiated with your wife (and I do applaud you on your approach by the way) you've deepened the complication of restoring your marriage by having yet another affair. Unless you are a consumate liar, I'm sorry to inform you but your wife has already lived this experience before and has seen the signs of your affair so she's not as fooled as you think she is! After being married this length of time, she has achieved her PHD on you and knows you, your patterns, your moods, what you're supposed to be doing, and where you're suppose to be as well as you do by now! The details of surrounding your affair and how you feel about this OW may be a revelation but the actual deception has been figured out a long time ago...believe that! The only question that remains is why she's chosen to stay in the marriage knowing what she knows? It will be interesting how she plays this drama out as you proceed into further discussions to repair your marriage so brace yourself for a little bad news of your own. Remember, when you checked out of your marriage your wife may have checked out as well! Yes, I'm beginning to think this is at the core of my problem and thank you for your insight. About 2 years into our M my wife became distant and admitted having an EA with a coworker. I remember feeling very isolated at the time but I didn't make a big deal out of it. Then the children came along and this seemed to get swept under the carpet (we have a very large carpet by the way). Looking back, I think we began to emotionally disconnect around this time and obviously this has fluctuated over the years but my other A was at a time when I felt nothing but resentment towards my W. In this case I upped sticks and left but then went back, not because the A wasn't working out but because of the hurt I was causing to the family. Maybe this was a wake up call to her because we talked openly for the first time in years and things did improve enormously on my return. I suppose my big failing (or weakness) is that, being easy going, I accept a situation that is not to my liking for too long and this builds up resentment. I was not looking for an A in either case but in both cases I fell for the OW because they came along when I was emotionally weak and / or p*ssed off. I seem to cave in at certain times in my life and I really wish I could be stronger but I can't it seems.
smartgirl Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Thanks for your comments smartgirl - glad you're still posting on this. I wouldn't agree with your assessment of me here though. In the situation with the OW, I feel I have given her far more than I have received. I certainly do not have a problem with giving love or connecting on an emotional level with people. In fact, I think I often give too much. In this case she couldn't handle it and backed off. She has her own issues and feels like she has to "match" my input which puts her under pressure and this (combined with all the other negatives such as language, distance and the illicit nature of the A) has taken its toll on the relationship. My problem seems to be why I can't connect on this level to my W and what is holding me/us back. I intend on exploring this issue further with her. Yes I am considering telling her about the A. I know that will be music to most peoples ears! Personally, I am still not sure it is in her best interests. Mr I, I hope you are able to connect well emotionally, but it is certainly a big question as to why you don't feel you can do that with your wife. Is this something you lost along the way or never had? What about your children? Are you close with them? You mentioned that they are difficult. I'm wondering what kind of effect that has had on your wife and your marriage. We have gone through periods where we had problems with one or both children and it can either bring you closer or drive you much further apart. The issue of telling your wife about the affair is not a black and white, right or wrong thing for me. I believe that if I had not found out about the affair, we would have never put the amount of work into improving our communication and our relationship (including the sex) that we did. If we had not done that work, even not knowing about the affair, I'm not sure I'd be all that happy now. I don't think my H would be all that happy either. We would still be married, but many of the problems would have continued. That would have been a shame because once we understood the other person's position, they were relatively easy to fix. A lot of it was just misunderstanding and misperceptions. All that being said, the knowledge of this betrayal has been more painful than anything I have experienced before. I would have never believed this loving, decent, ethical, honest man was capable of such lies, conniving and compromising of my privacy and dignity. The fact that I never suspected an affair makes me question my own intelligence and intuition. I am left with the horrible comparison of how he behaved in the throes of explosive affair passion vs how he behaves in a 30 year relationship. It isn't reasonable to make that comparison, but it isn't easy to get it out of your head either. This was worse for me because of the EA 20 years ago. Second time around you feel like he is constantly looking for an escape hatch from the marriage. I wouldn't wish those feelings on anyone. One approach is to be honest up to a point. That is to tell her you are having the same feelings that led you to have an affair 10 years ago and to explain what those feelings are. That you found yourself once again fixating on another person as a result and that fixation has caused you to withdraw even more from your relationship with her. That you have come to the conclusion that another person is not the solution to your problem, but rather a symptom. That you aren't all together sure what the problem is. Is it you, her or the way you are together? But you would like for her to explore this with you in the hopes of improving your marriage. But in any case, you cannot go on the way things have been and that means fix things or separate. I think those are all things you have said in your posts and that is the most important information for her to have. To know of your level of passion for OW and how far you were willing to go to be with her is damaging without being illuminating. If you stay focused on your true honest feelings I think you could give the really important information that your wife needs to make some decisions of her own. I know what kind of information helped us and what kind, while truthful, simply wounded me. Those wounds don't heal so well. I know other people feel truth is the only way. But plenty of people admit to affairs and never get to the real core of the situation and therefore, to me, provide something that is not the truth. This is probably too esoteric a concept to try and articulate here, but hopefully you get my drift.
Author MrIndependent Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 Mr I, I hope you are able to connect well emotionally, but it is certainly a big question as to why you don't feel you can do that with your wife. Is this something you lost along the way or never had? What about your children? Are you close with them? You mentioned that they are difficult. I'm wondering what kind of effect that has had on your wife and your marriage. We have gone through periods where we had problems with one or both children and it can either bring you closer or drive you much further apart. Smartgirl strikes again! Thank you so much for keeping me real and for being so open and straightforward. You H is a lucky man! It's hard to pinpoint exactly the point where my feelings changed. My W's attitude towards me changed quite rapidly after we got married. It was like, "OK I've got you now so I don't have to try anymore". I feel I was very loving during this period but it was taken for granted. The sex went down hill and after about a year she was very distant and I felt emotionally abandoned. Then the kids came along and suddenly there was a different focus. My feet hardly touched the ground for the next 5 years as I'm sure you will identify with! The 1st affair came out of a close work friendship but because I had built up lots of resentment my resistence was very low and it turned emo & physical. I think I was also looking for an escape from the M and fatherhood at that point. I used to come home from work and just sit in the car for hours rather than go in the house. I felt like a stranger in my own home. Of course I should have taken action but it's easy to say in retrospect. I couldn't see a way out. Maybe it wasn't that my kids were difficult, just that I found being a father very very stressful. The overriding thoughts I have about this period is that I am giving so much to everyone but not getting anything in return. All that being said, the knowledge of this betrayal has been more painful than anything I have experienced before. I would have never believed this loving, decent, ethical, honest man was capable of such lies, conniving and compromising of my privacy and dignity. The fact that I never suspected an affair makes me question my own intelligence and intuition. I am left with the horrible comparison of how he behaved in the throes of explosive affair passion vs how he behaves in a 30 year relationship. It isn't reasonable to make that comparison, but it isn't easy to get it out of your head either. Indeed and the weird thing is I have always thought of myself as loving, decent, ethical and honest. It was a shock to look in the mirror and discover there is another much darker side to myself than I imagined. I've never really been the same since and it's hard to forgive yourself. This was worse for me because of the EA 20 years ago. Second time around you feel like he is constantly looking for an escape hatch from the marriage. I wouldn't wish those feelings on anyone. This is why I am very reticent to reveal the true nature of the A. My W will not rest until every little detail is laid bare and it would probably destroy us this time around. One approach is to be honest up to a point. That is to tell her you are having the same feelings that led you to have an affair 10 years ago and to explain what those feelings are. That you found yourself once again fixating on another person as a result and that fixation has caused you to withdraw even more from your relationship with her. That you have come to the conclusion that another person is not the solution to your problem, but rather a symptom. That you aren't all together sure what the problem is. Is it you, her or the way you are together? But you would like for her to explore this with you in the hopes of improving your marriage. But in any case, you cannot go on the way things have been and that means fix things or separate. I think those are all things you have said in your posts and that is the most important information for her to have. To know of your level of passion for OW and how far you were willing to go to be with her is damaging without being illuminating. If you stay focused on your true honest feelings I think you could give the really important information that your wife needs to make some decisions of her own. I know what kind of information helped us and what kind, while truthful, simply wounded me. Those wounds don't heal so well. I know other people feel truth is the only way. But plenty of people admit to affairs and never get to the real core of the situation and therefore, to me, provide something that is not the truth. This is probably too esoteric a concept to try and articulate here, but hopefully you get my drift Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! This seems like an excellent angle to take. We seem to have similar notions of what truth is. Continued....
Owl Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 Mr I, I'd like to pose something for you to think about...an honest question I'd like you to consider. Are you here to TALK about your problems/issues...or are you here to SOLVE them? You seem to thrive on discussing things to an extreme, as long as that discussion doesn't entail any actual advice/suggestions/recommendations to do something to change the situation.
Author MrIndependent Posted June 19, 2008 Author Posted June 19, 2008 Mr I, I'd like to pose something for you to think about...an honest question I'd like you to consider. Are you here to TALK about your problems/issues...or are you here to SOLVE them? You seem to thrive on discussing things to an extreme, as long as that discussion doesn't entail any actual advice/suggestions/recommendations to do something to change the situation. Ok I will answer that very directly. I am here to talk about my problems until such time as I have a clear understanding of what action I want to take. Then I will take it. I am very grateful for all the advice I have receieved and believe me it is all going in and being processed. This is not a trivial problem to solve as I'm sure you can understand. I want to make sure I have a clear direction before I set off on any journey of change. Fair enough?
pelicanpreacher Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 (Didn't we address the grammar issue just now???) Oh well. Anyway, I assume this was addressed to me and not to LookingForward. What I find "pious and hypocritical" is the sudden sanctimoniousness of "reformed" cheaters whose coldness/bitterness towards the OW or OM with whom they spent some time in their lives with borders on the inhumane. It isn't about being "afraid to change", as you assert. It is about having a certain modesty about one's own faults, past or present, and to treat persons who were, rightly or wrongly, once emotionally and/or sexually in our lives with a modicum of respect, at the very least. OE Although I agree that the diatribes of certain BS posters can get old your advice cuts both ways for there are a few OW who post that come across just as haughtily!
2sunny Posted June 19, 2008 Posted June 19, 2008 ok - i understand your want/need/desire to understand it all BEFORE you take action - but that is not very productive. AT LEAST start to take SOME action that indicates to yourself that you are willing to be accountable for your participation with your wife and OW. if it's not big steps - at least it is baby steps in one direction or another. this will at least move you into action of some sort instead of standing still!
pelicanpreacher Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Smartgirl strikes again! Thank you so much for keeping me real and for being so open and straightforward. You H is a lucky man! It's hard to pinpoint exactly the point where my feelings changed. My W's attitude towards me changed quite rapidly after we got married. It was like, "OK I've got you now so I don't have to try anymore". I feel I was very loving during this period but it was taken for granted. The sex went down hill and after about a year she was very distant and I felt emotionally abandoned. Then the kids came along and suddenly there was a different focus. My feet hardly touched the ground for the next 5 years as I'm sure you will identify with! The 1st affair came out of a close work friendship but because I had built up lots of resentment my resistence was very low and it turned emo & physical. I think I was also looking for an escape from the M and fatherhood at that point. I used to come home from work and just sit in the car for hours rather than go in the house. I felt like a stranger in my own home. Of course I should have taken action but it's easy to say in retrospect. I couldn't see a way out. Maybe it wasn't that my kids were difficult, just that I found being a father very very stressful. The overriding thoughts I have about this period is that I am giving so much to everyone but not getting anything in return. Indeed and the weird thing is I have always thought of myself as loving, decent, ethical and honest. It was a shock to look in the mirror and discover there is another much darker side to myself than I imagined. I've never really been the same since and it's hard to forgive yourself. This is why I am very reticent to reveal the true nature of the A. My W will not rest until every little detail is laid bare and it would probably destroy us this time around. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! This seems like an excellent angle to take. We seem to have similar notions of what truth is. Continued.... Be careful Mr I. Are you absolutely sure your wife has no inkling of your affair?! I've said it once and I'll say it again...Your wife has been to your circus, seen the freak show, and knows all of your magician's tricks by virtue of your first affair. If you are a creature of habit, as are we all, you may have shown your hand during this affair time and time again! Her reaction this time around might be reflecting the cold cynicism of someone biding her time. If she is aware of the current affair and perceives your approach as just another mind game then she may feel even more hurt, insulted, and disgusted because you will have now demonstrated that you don't even respect her enough to owe her the truth. Building trust later on from that "behind the 8 ball" position will be a far more difficult task than it would be had you just divulged the "GOD's Honest Truth" so, be sure you know what she knows.
smartgirl Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Be careful Mr I. Are you absolutely sure your wife has no inkling of your affair?! I've said it once and I'll say it again...Your wife has been to your circus, seen the freak show, and knows all of your magician's tricks by virtue of your first affair. If you are a creature of habit, as are we all, you may have shown your hand during this affair time and time again! Her reaction this time around might be reflecting the cold cynicism of someone biding her time. If she is aware of the current affair and perceives your approach as just another mind game then she may feel even more hurt, insulted, and disgusted because you will have now demonstrated that you don't even respect her enough to owe her the truth. Building trust later on from that "behind the 8 ball" position will be a far more difficult task than it would be had you just divulged the "GOD's Honest Truth" so, be sure you know what she knows. I'm going to go a little out of order and disjointed here, but the phrase highlighted is CRITICALLY important. At a certain point, what was most important to me was that My H be willing to tell me everything. It was a "test" that it was really over and he wasn't concealing thoughts and actions that were essentially continuations of the affair relationship. He was not honest and open for a set of reasons that boiled down to the fact that he was trying to preserve his life and not see his job and marriage and family blown to hell. I don't know if this will make sense, but I didn't so much want all the details as I wanted to know he wasn't lying to me anymore and I was trying to get to that by asking an endless series of questions and seeing how he would answer. I got the worst of both worlds. He told me a number of things about his feelings for OW that were hideously painful. But he did not tell me they worked together, they were still seeing each other everyday and that she was confronting him regularly about unhappily things turned out for her. Those additional betrayals have been among the hardest to get over because it continued the realization that I could look into his eyes, believe what he was saying to me and then find out it was a lie. I wanted badly to believe that ended with the affair. Can you say to her that the lying ends now? Whether it is because you are avoiding conflict or trying to save your ass or trying to spare her feelings - can you say that going forward you will not lie about the important stuff???? I'm not talking about social lies to protect her feelings, like whether she looks good in a particular dress as you are already walking out the door! Will you be honest with her about whether you are happy or unhappy and how you feel about her on the critical issues. You are correct that silence breeds resentment. She knows that and she will want to make sure that you are giving her the opportunity to discuss problems before you turn to an eager coworker to numb your discontent.
smartgirl Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Ok I will answer that very directly. I am here to talk about my problems until such time as I have a clear understanding of what action I want to take. Then I will take it. I am very grateful for all the advice I have receieved and believe me it is all going in and being processed. This is not a trivial problem to solve as I'm sure you can understand. I want to make sure I have a clear direction before I set off on any journey of change. Fair enough? I think this is a reasonable approach. Mr. I has heard a number of competing opinions and based on our individual experiences, we each think we have the right answer because things turned out well for us - whether WS, BS or OW. He can't just act on what has been advised because he has been given conflicting advice. He should listen, consider and take a thoughtful approach. A person should be able to completely internalize a way of thinking before they act or they are simply doing what someone else has suggested without knowing why.
smartgirl Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Smartgirl strikes again! Thank you so much for keeping me real and for being so open and straightforward. You H is a lucky man! Ironically, any H is capable of not seeing how lucky he is because he has stopped looking and discounted the value his wife offers. My H at a point discounted all the things I offered believing they were not unique and could be had with many women. He believe what OW offered, while more limited, was more valuable. He found out differently on all points and had the guts to say so. He compared it to visiting OZ, where you think your heart's desire resides only to find out that what truely makes you happy is what you had all along. The only difference is that you didn't appreciate it at the time. ----- It's hard to pinpoint exactly the point where my feelings changed. My W's attitude towards me changed quite rapidly after we got married. It was like, "OK I've got you now so I don't have to try anymore". I feel I was very loving during this period but it was taken for granted. This is worth exploring with her. I felt my H's desire for sex and to please me evaporated after we settled down. 1) he was in a high stress situation at work that I did not fully appreciate until many years later 2) we both had expectations that were not communicated to the other and misunderstood. I thought now that we are living together, he will put more effort into foreplay and pleasing me. He thought, now that we are living together, I can put less effort into foreplay and pleasing her. I was disappointed and I checked out emotionally for awhile. ------ The sex went down hill and after about a year she was very distant and I felt emotionally abandoned. Then the kids came along and suddenly there was a different focus. My feet hardly touched the ground for the next 5 years as I'm sure you will identify with! The 1st affair came out of a close work friendship but because I had built up lots of resentment my resistence was very low and it turned emo & physical. I think I was also looking for an escape from the M and fatherhood at that point. I used to come home from work and just sit in the car for hours rather than go in the house. I felt like a stranger in my own home. Of course I should have taken action but it's easy to say in retrospect. I couldn't see a way out. Maybe it wasn't that my kids were difficult, just that I found being a father very very stressful. The overriding thoughts I have about this period is that I am giving so much to everyone but not getting anything in return. This is not unique to fathers. I felt like my only value to anyone was what I provided to them. The kids demands on me never ended. I felt like my H had a free pass by comparison. It was exhausting. If I left to run errands he grilled me when I got home as to why it had taken me so long. If I wanted to go out and exercise the kids cried and begged me not to go. Mind you, I worked a full time, competitive job that never ran under 45 hours a week. I loved him and the kids, but I often just wanted to disappear for at least a few days to have some sense of freedom. Because we both worked and had long commutes, we gave up every ounce of "us time" to devote to the kids. We both became increasingly resentful. That being said, they were precious to us and we wanted to give them the time. I guess we could have balance it better, but at the time we were doing what we thought was best. ------- Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! This seems like an excellent angle to take. We seem to have similar notions of what truth is. Continued.... See part of answer sprinkled above as I cannot get this damn quote business figure out! As I said, so many people admit to having an affair but never admit to the feelings they had that caused them to have the affair - the longings, the resentments, the whatever. If you don't offer that part of the truth, the other part is no more valuable than a rush hour traffic report the day after. My previous post addresses what your wife may be looking for in asking for the details. She must be sure you won't keep lying. She has been burned twice now. She can't keep giving you chances and have any self respect and she knows that. Right now, every chance she gives you is at the expense of her own sense of dignity and self respect. You have to make her feel good again about trusting you the way she did at first. After two affairs, a woman can feel that putting trust in her mate has been demoted to an act of self degradation.
Owl Posted June 20, 2008 Posted June 20, 2008 Thank you for answering so directly, Mr I. I'd like to point out to you that this thread has been ongoing for nearly a month now, and you're in exactly the same place you were then. You're not one step closer to taking any action that you need to take in order to make progress. Quite frankly, I think your approach is self-serving. Its intended to draw all of this out, to avoid taking responsibilty and accountability for your affair. I believe this isn't done out of a desire to clearly understand your choices...this really isn't that tough. This isn't rocket science...I used to do rocket science for a living...I know it...and this isn't it. The dynamics of the situation you're in simply aren't so complicated that they take a month of discussion to try to understand. They don't take nearly that much effort to "get" that you can't be making those "baby steps" someone else has mentioned. I think you're making yourself feel better by fooling yourself that you're taking forward steps by posting here. Quite bluntly, this isn't that complicated. I'll bother you no more with my advice and suggestions. When/if you decide that you really do want to take forward steps, I'll be glad to advise you then if you're interested. Good luck to you. And to your wife.
Mustang Sally Posted June 21, 2008 Posted June 21, 2008 I just want to acknowledge Owl's timely point. While true growth must contain a component of retro- and introspection... There does eventually come a time to either crap or get off the pot. I think there is a fine line between trying to decipher one's confusing feelings and becoming mired in one's situation to the point of losing objectivity and attributing unhealthy uniqueness, if you will, to one's situation that could end up further fueling an individual's personal need for (over-inflated?) self-importance and ego-centricity. While it is healthy and vital for us each to maintain personal insight, I believe that too concentrated of an inward focus, for too much of the time may beget an unhealthy narcissistic view of one's personal life, and the world in general. Mr I's situation is significant, and certainly troublesome - on many levels, no doubt. But I am starting to agree that - while personally potentially devastating - maybe he needs to step back a bit, and consider more of a "world view" for a time? Just some food for thought, anyway.
cherrymoon Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Hello everyone, Firstly can I say There are a couple of people on this thread that post such amazing insight and helpful advice, I personally am learning, and there are as always one or two who really need to get a new hobby and stop being so sarcastic and sharp. We are all on this forum because our relationships have taken a turn and we need to reach out, not one of us are allowed to judge and I don't care how awful my spelling or grammar is as I have a fantastic degree in English and this ain't a thesis. Mr I Stop wallowing. Am I the only poster other than you who has done the stupid deed of having an affair? Firstly as I said before an affair only happens when there is a gap in your marriage you however have done this twice and to be honest i lose a lot of sympathy for your plight. My OM also had two affairs I was his second, I asked him what I will ask you, How did you get over that first affair? Your answer will be probably the same as his. "I didn't love her like I love you/ her " Truth is you loved neither, you loved what they brought to you, the ego boost, the affirmation, the sex the 100% attention and the feeling of desire. Sex is a huge factor I am presuming for you. you have 2 children, your wife I am once again am presuming may not want or have any sexual curiosity, sex is nice but to the point, same time same place, not hot and passionate. Your OW and you leave nothing standing in a room, sex can go on all night it is exciting new and energetic. This is what you are missing plus you miss being listened to. Your children are growing up and you can now make time with your wife spend time talking and actually you can learn about each others bodies and rediscover sex. Your wife knows you were having an affair, you cannot live with someone for so long and not know especialy as you have done it before. I believe in telling the truth but about lying about the sexual details as that just kills them and burns images onto their minds. it takes 3 weeks to break a habit you need to break this one fast. Your wife deserves to be happy as much as you do. You are hurting her. Make no contact with this OW. Get some counselling and resolve your own issues, Stop being a victim and stop the self pity. I am about to move back in with my H, I need lots of advice and help I am hoping Owl, 2long, smartgirl and Mustang sally might be there for me. Time to grow up Mr I and I already know who you are you are George Clooney feck it man you put up your picture. I think you thrive on mysery and a little bit of an ego, George Cloney pic (oh please) and I can't say anymore as you will work out who i am (oh please) you like Drama. Sorry but it is time to face up to things and I am am more than happy to contribute but the softly softly approach has gone on too long plus I was a twat like you so I hear you and all that you say but honey you want your unit that is why you chose an affair rather than leaving. Best of luck
Owl Posted June 23, 2008 Posted June 23, 2008 Cherrymoon, I'll gladly help if I can...start your thread, and I'll be watching for it.
Author MrIndependent Posted June 26, 2008 Author Posted June 26, 2008 Thank you cherrymoon. Your assessment of my psyche is pretty much spot on actually but you are wrong about one thing. I do love my OW very much but I made a big mistake in letting her into my heart when I wasn't free. I must now live with that and try to find a way out of this mess. The sex was good but not the best I've ever had (and you are right that this is very important to me) nor did she give me 100% attention, far from it. But I was able to be myself with her and she was straight down the line honest with me all the way. I've never really experienced that before and I suppose I respected it. Unlike many "reformed cheaters" on this board I will not condemn her and she will always be special to me. Most of the blame here lies with me and me alone. Maybe I have been wallowing in self pity for a while but we only broke up 2 weeks ago and the pain has been intense, unlike anything I have experienced. However, I am beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel and have put a plan of action together. I am seeing a counsellor regularly (my W knows this) and am starting to see why I allow these things to happen. I have some childhood issues which have haunted me but of course I'm not alone in that! Throughout all this I have been incredibly selfish and my W has undoubtably suffered as a result despite the fact we are more like room mates these days. I now intend to put that right by throwing myself 100% into the M and trying to inject some love, excitement and commitment. This will start with a series of revelations attempting to present the truth of what happened without necessarily giving all the hurtful details. I will have to play this by ear. Wish me luck. By the way I picked GC because it was the only pic I could find that was small enough! The comment about my identity was not because I am famous but because my circumstances are somewhat unique and if I reveal them I would lose my annonymity. Thanks again everyone for your help and support.
Owl Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 This will start with a series of revelations attempting to present the truth of what happened without necessarily giving all the hurtful details. Don't sugar coat it or bubble wrap it to the point that you can't tell what it is. In other words...tell your wife that you cheated on her point blank...and then let HER decide what level of detail she needs to hear from you. Some BS's (betrayed spouses) don't want to hear the ugly details...some need to hear EVERYTHING. Realize the biggest pain caused by cheating is the LIES and DECEPTION. In order to forgive, the BS needs to understand to what level they've been decieved. In other words...if you want to have any chance to recover your marriage, you're going to have to be willing to admit the entire truth to your wife. Witholding information from her...WHATEVER your 'reason'...will NOT rebuild your marriage. It will not rebuild her trust. It will NOT create an atmosphere of honesty and commitment. Tell her you cheated on her...and then be prepared to answer any question she has HONESTLY AND OPENLY. If you feel that something may hurt her to hear...tell her that, but if she presses...ANSWER THE QUESTION. If you can't do this...file for divorce, because recovery will be impossible.
silktricks Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 I disagree with some on this message board about coming clean over the A. I know this will only cause needless pain to an innocent party. This pain and guilt is now my problem and I will not unload it onto someone else. If I did reveal it I know from experience that I would have to reveal every detail. I don't think she could take that. She might find it freeing. You have already shown utter disregard both to her and to the OW. Why not try acting the part of a grown up? Tell your wife what happened. She has the right to know and to make her own choices. You've already decided that she's staying with you because of finances - so maybe you aren't so sure of that after all?? Maybe inside of you that isn't what you really believe. Seems to me that you simply want to be the person calling the shots. So it's YOUR choice whether to stay or leave. Seems to me that you just sound like most people in affairs - selfish.
marlena Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 You and only you know how to deal with the subtleties of your situation. If you think that gradually revealing things to your wife, in your own special way, is the way to go,then, go with that. Truly, I wish you good luck.
pelicanpreacher Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 Tell your wife everything. If she finds out without a confession, it will worsen the situation to a gi-normous degree. Trust me - I got suspicious, asked him, was lied to, and did my own investigating. You are in charge of damage control here. Be a man. Let her decide what details she wants. Give her control of the situation and suck it up. It's the only possible chance to save your marriage, if that's what you want (and if that's what she ends up wanting). For me, the only way to start building trust (still not there, btw) was to hear every stinking detail - from the first time they had sex to the last time, and the things that were said and done on a daily basis (both in their discussions and in the bedroom). What their shared "songs" were, what their email abbreviations were, what she said about her husband, what was said about me, what she smelled like / tasted like / etc., what bugged him about her, what he liked about her, and on and on. Two years later and I still ask questions. Sidenote: I made sure to share this info with the OW's husband (we talk) so that it got back to her / so she would know all her secrets with her former MM are now public domain, in a sense. Not that I want to be vindictive but I want her to see my husband in the daylight and know he is serious about trying to change from being a secretive, cowardly SOB. The walls have to come down so give her the sledgehammer and put your hard hat on. WOW & WHOA! I really like your style SO. Mr. I, I would proceed on the exact course espoused by OWL. You must reveal as much truth as your WIFE will allow at a pace she can absorb it. All you can hope for after you've gotten it all out is that her heart hasn't been hardened beyond thaw any longer and your efforts now will reopen lines of communication that she has already shut down. As I said before, she has gotten all the vibes from you about the affair throughout the current deception so she's not going to be totally blindsided by your revelations no matter what she feigns. (Beware of traps being laid to entice and entrap you in a lie) This is your one and only opportunity to get it right so be brave enough now not to half-step when your WIFE asks a direct question about your affair! As cliche' as it sounds, "the truth will set you free" one way or another and "honesty is the best policy". If you're still determined to negotiate the tangled web of lies you've spun then, again, you'd better know exactly what she knows!
Author MrIndependent Posted June 27, 2008 Author Posted June 27, 2008 Just when I thought I'd got my head straight and almost 2 weeks of NC from OW she emails me wanting to be friends. I know I must ignore this but every fibre of my being is telling me otherwise. How do you turn your back on someone you love? If anyone is reading this and considering an affair - DON'T DO IT. You will live to regret it whether your partner finds out or not. If you fall in love with the OP and still have any feelings left for your partner it will tear your soul apart. I have been through all sorts of crises in my life and thought I was strong. In the end I was only human. In an A, at least 3 people get hurt and more if it involves kids. Take it from me, it is not worth it.
Author MrIndependent Posted June 27, 2008 Author Posted June 27, 2008 Originally Posted by Yoda (that little green goofy looking Jedi Master from Star Wars: There is no try, only do. -ol' 2long Thanks for reminding me of this!
whichwayisup Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 Just when I thought I'd got my head straight and almost 2 weeks of NC from OW she emails me wanting to be friends. I know I must ignore this but every fibre of my being is telling me otherwise. How do you turn your back on someone you love? There is NO WAY in heck you two can be friends. NONE. So please don't even consider it, entertain the thought - If you cave and email or call her back, you're done and sucked right back into the A. How do you turn your back on her? You focus on your wife. You make a decision and stick to it, suck it up and let go of the OW. OR: Divorce your wife NOW and go be with the OW. DO NOT try to go back to the OW while you're still married.
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