When MM thinks he has to stay married in spite of his own needs

[OWoman]

NES, this is the crunch question, isn't it? I have thought about this often, and I came to this conclusion (just the way it makes sense to me, anyway):

 

Great post, Frannie!

[White Flower]

Great post, Frannie!

I agree;). It looks as though you covered all angles before you went NC. I am so glad you are still here posting to lend advice to those who haven't yet gone through all that you have. Your service to these boards is astounding and quite impressive.

[OpenBook]

I think you just get to a point where you can put the focus on you, because depending on someone else's actions to make you happy and change your life is soul-destroying. I could eventually go NC knowing we'd done all the angles to death, and there was nowhere else for me to go.

 

Frannie, these words should be inscribed in gold. Fabulous post!!! It sure is a hard-won truth, eh...

[Mino]

Frannie, these words should be inscribed in gold. Fabulous post!!! It sure is a hard-won truth, eh...

Thanks Frannie, that was a great post!!!

[GPFan]

I agree, very good post Frannie!

[frannie]

Oh wow. That's so odd... for some reason I thought I was going to see a lot of criticism of what I'd said, and people telling me I was a fool for ever believing in him. And I log on and there's this!

 

Can't tell you how good that felt! Thanks for the positive responses all.

[White Flower]

Oh wow. That's so odd... for some reason I thought I was going to see a lot of criticism of what I'd said, and people telling me I was a fool for ever believing in him. And I log on and there's this!

 

Can't tell you how good that felt! Thanks for the positive responses all.

Frannie, your post was so relevant to the thread's subject.

 

All too often we see people get upset and leave LS in disgust or exhaustion. It is wonderful that you stay and advise others with your hard-earned experience. Kudos for you;).

[complicatedlife]

It's easy to get pre-occupied:

 

YOU LOVE HIM!

 

Just don't forget you love yourself...And if he loves you, he'll pull it together...Just make it clear what he stands to lose:

 

YOU!

 

GEL

 

You make it all sound so easy!

[complicatedlife]

Setting up false dichotomies is intellectually lazy and emotionally dishonest. If his children's happiness and his own are really mutually exclusive, he should not have had children and should not continue to parent them as that really would be a recipe for disaster. But I think you'll find that he does allow SOME shades of grey in there, just not in a way that actually requires him to make a decision and take action.

 

The thing is, there are a few more legitimate variables in there that I'm not at liberty to disclose because of the need to protect his identity and privacy as well as my own. I will say that besides the children, he is not dealing with a spouse that is always fully cognizant, or one that is mentally stable. I'm not saying she's insane or anything like that, I'm just saying that there are issues and concerns there in regards to her, but more so, how it affects the children. I'm probably not making any sense!

[complicatedlife]

Anyway, CL... in my experience there's not a lot you can do to move your feelings forward to a place where you'll be happy going NC with him. Yes, it is like losing a couple of limbs to be without someone you were so close to for so long. But when you get there, you'll know it, and it will be easier to contemplate (though still wrenchingly painful). All I can say is just keep having the conversations with him, so at least you'll be clear in your own mind that you did all you could while you were still together. That's how I look at my situation, anyway.

 

There is so much that I want to say about a number of things that you've touched on here, but, I don't want to bore anyone here with my rants and raves, so maybe I'll PM you, if that's ok.

 

So much of what you said here had me thinking so hard, I had to take some time off of LS to really digest everything and reflect. Thank you so much for this - I can't tell you how valuable and appreciated what you have written is.

 

We've had some really deep conversations this week about this situation and I've come to the conclusion, on my own, that although he doesn't want to be married to his W anymore, he feels that his children are at a vulnerable age and time (see my reply above to OWoman), therefore, I'm lead to believe that at least for the short term, he will remain where he is, as unhappy as he is. He has actually come out and told me that he doesn't want me to wait for him because the guilt of that, on top of what he already has to bear is too much. So, now I am in decision mode - and I go back and forth on a variety of things. I am going to take your suggestion/advice - I'm trying to figure out what is mentally and emotionally comfortable and acceptable to me, and what I feel I can handle - what I feel I can't tolerate. Friends? We'd probably fall right back in. NC? Definitely losing several limbs and maybe an organ or two. Continuing? Both hard and easy; happiness as well as sadness. But I'm sure I'll come to a resolution eventually - in the end, the mind or the heart always wins.

 

Thank you.

[OWoman]

The thing is, there are a few more legitimate variables in there that I'm not at liberty to disclose because of the need to protect his identity and privacy as well as my own. I will say that besides the children, he is not dealing with a spouse that is always fully cognizant, or one that is mentally stable. I'm not saying she's insane or anything like that, I'm just saying that there are issues and concerns there in regards to her, but more so, how it affects the children. I'm probably not making any sense!

 

 

MM is KFed! BW is Britney Spears!

 

CL my MM's W is also a basket case. It definitely doesn't make anything easy. Hang in there!

[twice_shy]

He is trying to do the right thing by his children, even though he doesn't love his W anymore.

 

I think it has, more times than not, to do with the MM/MW not wanting to uproot their own lifestyle, as well as the kids.

 

Don't want to lose the house, the car, the widescreen tv....whatever.

[neverendingsaga]

NES, this is the crunch question, isn't it? I have thought about this often, and I came to this conclusion (just the way it makes sense to me, anyway):

 

When we're involved with a MM, we think that they see their situation like this, as a choice between:

 

1) Staying in a bad marriage, where they claim to be unhappy, and losing us, the OW, who they claim to love and want to be with.

2) Leaving, and enjoying a new life, doing the right thing by everyone (however you want to word it or however you see it).

 

And logic would dictate that they would choose (2), surely? So we question ourselves (and their motives). But I think what they actually see themseves is a choice between:

 

1) Staying in this marriage, with OW here to make things bearable, i.e. maintain the status quo.

2) Leaving, taking a chance on the OW, and possibly hurting everyone to finish up losing everything I originally had if things don't work out.

 

Now, I am not very sure that I'd take that leap myself, number (1) looks far more attractive, and is far less trouble!!, even though it's not ideal at all.

 

But, in ending things with the MM, you take away that second option (1), leaving them with a very different scenario:

 

1) Stay in this marriage which I don't want to be in, knowing that OW is moving on now and I've lost her.

2) Leave, and have a potential future with her, whatever the risks...

 

Now, in this scenario, option (2) begins to look a little more attractive than option (1) (assuming that the MM is in love, and his marriage really isn't what he wants). Not saying that it means he'll automatically move out, far from it, but on the other hand, it does put his options on more or less equal footing, and in my view makes him actually leaving more likely than if you're hanging around there providing enough of his needs that he's happy enough to stay married.

 

i agree w/ everyone else, this is a great post that sums up so many things. i do believe that my XMM is unhappy w/ his M & he has been for a long time (not that part of that isnt his fault or that that should have been an excuse for him to cheat, but just that i believe that to be true if i take all the judgments out of it). i also believe he feels love for me (again, no judgments as to whether its unselfish love or mature love or the right kind of love that i deserve-or else he would never put me through all this pain- but i do believe he truly believes he loves me & wants to be w/ me).

 

maybe im a fool to believe those 2 things but those are the only things ive ever been totally sure of in this whole mess. well plus the fact that he WANTS to get D but it is a lot harder then he thought, B/C he doesnt want to look like the bad guy & he doesnt want to humiliate his W & he DOES have some fear about losing everything hes worked for his whole life-his house, his stuff, his M even if its crappy, etc. & take a plunge in brand new waters w/ someone a lot less established (hes older then me & both of them make a lot more money then me, im just starting out).

 

so i can better see the situation now w/out hating him or judging him or even myself in the past for it. i can even see what you say about how its easier for him to have both, his crappy M & his exciting times w/ me, and i dont get super mad at him & think hes super selfish like i used to. (i still think hes a weak man for staying in a bad M for so long B/C its easy & keeping me who he says he loves on the side B/C its easy... i wish he had done the harder thing & shown some strength). but knowing what i know now i cant go on enabling him to stay M'ed & keep me on the side. so i get what you say about now his options are diff. & now if he wants to be w/ me he is going to have to take a big risk & realise that his life has to change big time with or w/out me if he really does get this D he keeps saying he wants. its like a reality wake up call that im giving MYSELF & by default him too.

 

the only problem is... even if he DOES get D'ed, maybe my opinion of him will have changed & i'll think, wait a minute, WHY did he only make a move once he HAD to. do i want to be w/ a man who's so weak that he kept having both of us so as not to have to make any tough decisions... untill -I- made the tough decision instead. so maybe its a no win situation for him but i still feel that he would be happier not being M'ed to her & finding real love even if its not w/ me.

 

and maybe this is the part where you say frannie that i think to much and imagine 'what if's too much. b/c right now he ISN'T D'ed & all i know is its best for me to be in NC no matter what ends up happening or not happening b/c of it. and maybe im a huge fool but im still at that point where my heart tugs for him & i hope he hurries up and gets his D. maybe im living in fairytale land but if he showed up w/ papers tomorrow i would give it a try. but NOT UNTILL THEN... at least ive gotten that far LOL

 

thanks for your post & sorry to talk so much about my own situation when this is a more in general kind of thread.

[White Flower]

There is so much that I want to say about a number of things that you've touched on here, but, I don't want to bore anyone here with my rants and raves, so maybe I'll PM you, if that's ok.

 

So much of what you said here had me thinking so hard, I had to take some time off of LS to really digest everything and reflect. Thank you so much for this - I can't tell you how valuable and appreciated what you have written is.

 

We've had some really deep conversations this week about this situation and I've come to the conclusion, on my own, that although he doesn't want to be married to his W anymore, he feels that his children are at a vulnerable age and time (see my reply above to OWoman), therefore, I'm lead to believe that at least for the short term, he will remain where he is, as unhappy as he is. He has actually come out and told me that he doesn't want me to wait for him because the guilt of that, on top of what he already has to bear is too much. So, now I am in decision mode - and I go back and forth on a variety of things. I am going to take your suggestion/advice - I'm trying to figure out what is mentally and emotionally comfortable and acceptable to me, and what I feel I can handle - what I feel I can't tolerate. Friends? We'd probably fall right back in. NC? Definitely losing several limbs and maybe an organ or two. Continuing? Both hard and easy; happiness as well as sadness. But I'm sure I'll come to a resolution eventually - in the end, the mind or the heart always wins.

 

Thank you.

I really feel for you CL. I was right there a few weeks ago and all I can tell you is it does get better. Again, I have not gone NC but when I thought I was going to I felt like I was losing a limb or a lung. Somehow the C removed that horrible feeling but like everyone warns it could lead you right back to the A so be careful. Take your time and really KNOW what you want before putting it out there.

 

Hugs.

[frannie]

There is so much that I want to say about a number of things that you've touched on here, but, I don't want to bore anyone here with my rants and raves, so maybe I'll PM you, if that's ok.

 

I'm trying to figure out what is mentally and emotionally comfortable and acceptable to me, and what I feel I can handle - what I feel I can't tolerate. Friends? We'd probably fall right back in. NC? Definitely losing several limbs and maybe an organ or two. Continuing? Both hard and easy; happiness as well as sadness. But I'm sure I'll come to a resolution eventually - in the end, the mind or the heart always wins.

 

CL feel free to PM

 

Ah the old head/heart thing *nods*. I would throw in the gut too, just to over-complicate everything .

 

But I recently heard about a thing called 'wise mind', which is neither reacting from emotion (heart) or reason (head), but taking everything into consideration and doing the 'wise' thing. So here head is saying that being friends you'd end up back in the affair, but heart is saying you can't bear the idea of complete NC. Wise mind might say that you should maybe accept that you're going to feel a lot of pain, but perhaps letting go with love is both kind and sane? You can't possibly JUST make a 'rational' decision, you're going to have to deal with those emotions somehow. I don't think it's possible to get to a point of being able to let go with no regrets and no pain. Or if it is, could someone please tell me the secret!

 

Anyway, maybe see you in PM.

[OldEurope]

the only problem is... even if he DOES get D'ed, maybe my opinion of him will have changed & i'll think, wait a minute, WHY did he only make a move once he HAD to. do i want to be w/ a man who's so weak that he kept having both of us so as not to have to make any tough decisions... untill -I- made the tough decision instead. so maybe its a no win situation for him but i still feel that he would be happier not being M'ed to her & finding real love even if its not w/ me.

 

 

NES,

 

If you truly love him and do see yourself with him for the long haul, don't get all tied up in this kind of thinking. "What if" this and "what if" that. Yes, those words are going to circle and circle around you like a vulture eyeing vulnerable prey, but you have to stamp them out.

 

There is a lot of psychology going on in these decisions, these kinds of relationships and people are weak and they do second-guess themselves. Even if your exiting the scene is what prompts him to divorce, don't view that necessarily so harshly in the context of your imagined doubts as expressed above. Should he be close to leaving, he will be going through very difficult emotions, and sometimes it is the absence of the OW (I would argue it most usually is) that makes the man in question really stand back and assess what he wants. Should he divorce and pursue you, that is the "toughest" courage any one could be expected to make.

 

What matters is the big picture. If you truly love him, you'll keep the big picture in mind when he divorces (if that happens) and comes to you (should that happen). At that point, keep your eyes open, yes. But don't get bogged down in too much over-analysis, or set the bar so unrealistically high as to what his mental state of affairs should be transitioning from one life to another.

 

xo

OE

[Lookingforward]

Upon reflection I'd say that if the MM is staying in the M, some at least of his needs ARE being met ,whether those 'needs' or staying makes any sense to anyone else or not, or even if they are healthy emotional choices.

 

When enough of his 'needs' are being ignored, the balance will shift and he will leave.

[OWoman]

Upon reflection I'd say that if the MM is staying in the M, some at least of his needs ARE being met ,whether those 'needs' or staying makes any sense to anyone else or not, or even if they are healthy emotional choices.

 

When enough of his 'needs' are being ignored, the balance will shift and he will leave.

 

Maybe even just the need for stability, balancing against the fear of the unknown...

[Lookingforward]

Maybe even just the need for stability, balancing against the fear of the unknown...

 

yes, especially for someone who has left all the 'details' of running the household up to the spouse then finds it nigh near impossible to wrest control back.

[OWoman]

yes, especially for someone who has left all the 'details' of running the household up to the spouse then finds it nigh near impossible to wrest control back.

 

I wish I could just outsource that boring stuff too...

[Lookingforward]

I wish I could just outsource that boring stuff too...

 

One thing I will never give up is my right to decide how MY paypacket is dispersed - that's beyond my comprehension

[Lookingforward]

NES, this is the crunch question, isn't it? I have thought about this often, and I came to this conclusion (just the way it makes sense to me, anyway):

 

When we're involved with a MM, we think that they see their situation like this, as a choice between:

 

1) Staying in a bad marriage, where they claim to be unhappy, and losing us, the OW, who they claim to love and want to be with.

2) Leaving, and enjoying a new life, doing the right thing by everyone (however you want to word it or however you see it).

 

And logic would dictate that they would choose (2), surely? So we question ourselves (and their motives). But I think what they actually see themseves is a choice between:

 

1) Staying in this marriage, with OW here to make things bearable, i.e. maintain the status quo.

2) Leaving, taking a chance on the OW, and possibly hurting everyone to finish up losing everything I originally had if things don't work out.

 

Now, I am not very sure that I'd take that leap myself, number (1) looks far more attractive, and is far less trouble!!, even though it's not ideal at all.

 

But, in ending things with the MM, you take away that second option (1), leaving them with a very different scenario:

 

1) Stay in this marriage which I don't want to be in, knowing that OW is moving on now and I've lost her.

2) Leave, and have a potential future with her, whatever the risks...

 

Now, in this scenario, option (2) begins to look a little more attractive than option (1) (assuming that the MM is in love, and his marriage really isn't what he wants). Not saying that it means he'll automatically move out, far from it, but on the other hand, it does put his options on more or less equal footing, and in my view makes him actually leaving more likely than if you're hanging around there providing enough of his needs that he's happy enough to stay married.

 

 

 

CL, it took me almost 4 years to arrive at this place. I can see so much of me and xMM in you and your MM... the long discussions, the looking up information. Once I said to him do you think we'd actually have anything to talk about if it weren't for the 'sorting out the relationship' conversations , and for a while we thought... hmmmm maybe not! But that's the kind of people we are: could talk for hours about things, it was one of our favourite activities. But it got to a point about a year ago (when he was posting on here) when I'd had enough of all that. He once again didn't leave when we had set ourselves a deadline and I thought: no, let's just enjoy what we have now, and let it have its natural ending. I couldn't go NC at that point, it was too painful to contemplate.

 

So we had last summer, and it was fantastic. No more 'when are you leaving?' talk, just the assumption that eventually I'd get tired of it and be able to walk away. We managed to have long, involved conversations about lots of other things instead , and eventually... eventually... I got to the point where I needed him to leave but wasn't going to ask him again (didn't want to go through all that again!), by which time I was ready to let him go. It's now fully up to him what he does, with no pressure or involvement from me.

 

I think you just get to a point where you can put the focus on you, because depending on someone else's actions to make you happy and change your life is soul-destroying. I could eventually go NC knowing we'd done all the angles to death, and there was nowhere else for me to go.

 

 

 

I think this is a great post, which shows understanding of why some people are cheating. I've seen posts over in other sections of this forum from other 'cake-eaters' who admit that this is how they feel and why they're doing it. I certainly know that this was my xMM to a tee, and he admitted it, well 'admit' is the wrong word really! He fully stated that he needed things to be this way. And in all honesty, I was happy in many ways for it to be this way for as long as I could believe that he would leave at the earliest sensible opportunity.

 

He never left me in any doubt that he loved me, but needed to be there (yes, for his own self-serving reasons!) for the kids, even though, as I said, he was here half the week anyway! I was prepared for it to be that way, because why would I want those kids to be hurt just so he could be with me..?

 

BUT. Something inside kept nagging at me... no, no, no. I don't believe it is better for them if he stays. I believe it would be far better for everyone in our situation (xMM, W, children, and me) if he would leave and make a good job of leaving. There were a number of 'final straws' during last summer which pushed me further in that direction. ONe of them was when he said his W had complained that he wasn't there very often. I had always thought she didn't care... but that was evidence of the opposite, and I wasn't happy with that. I think I thought, if I can sacrifice my happiness so everyone else doesn't get hurt, then that's OK... but I was wrong about that, evidently.

 

Anyway, CL... in my experience there's not a lot you can do to move your feelings forward to a place where you'll be happy going NC with him. Yes, it is like losing a couple of limbs to be without someone you were so close to for so long. But when you get there, you'll know it, and it will be easier to contemplate (though still wrenchingly painful). All I can say is just keep having the conversations with him, so at least you'll be clear in your own mind that you did all you could while you were still together. That's how I look at my situation, anyway.

 

 

This post and the ones quoted really hit home for me. It made me realise that even though we were NC because he was "working on his M", he also knew I was still here for him, if everything went south anyway.

 

So today I broke NC to tell him I was done and wouldn't be waiting any longer, and that I would not be contacting him again nor responding to any contact from him.

 

Maybe now I can finally move on, but damn it still hurts knowing that's finally it, even though I know I deserve FAR better.

 

Reading through it I can also clearly see him finding another woman to "confide in" re his M woes, one his W won't have told him to go NC with.

[Mino]

This post and the ones quoted really hit home for me. It made me realise that even though we were NC because he was "working on his M", he also knew I was still here for him, if everything went south anyway.

 

So today I broke NC to tell him I was done and wouldn't be waiting any longer, and that I would not be contacting him again nor responding to any contact from him.

 

Maybe now I can finally move on, but damn it still hurts knowing that's finally it, even though I know I deserve FAR better.

 

Reading through it I can also clearly see him finding another woman to "confide in" re his M woes, one his W won't have told him to go NC with.[/quote Hi looking forward, How did he respond> How long have you been in NC. I am dying today, its been tough...

[Lookingforward]

Hi looking forward, How did he respond> How long have you been in NC. I am dying today, its been tough...

 

He basically just reiterated what he has said before, that he HAD to promise to go NC with me and it wasn't anything I said or did. I didn't respond to that.

 

It was supposed to be NC from June but it was (very) LC for a few months due to circumstances that required contact and then total NC since September.

 

I can't imagine having to work with someone in this situation - one reason I won't start a workplace relationship ever, even with a SG.

[White Flower]

Reading through it I can also clearly see him finding another woman to "confide in" re his M woes, one his W won't have told him to go NC with.[/quote Hi looking forward, How did he respond> How long have you been in NC. I am dying today, its been tough...

(((Big hugs Mino and LookingForward)))