are we doing anything wrong?

[theline]

I thought I'd come and update since it's been a while.

 

I did try to take the advice of focusing my energy on my H, trying to communicate more with him, flirt with him and generally show him how much I love him, and it's been working really well. We've been getting along better than we have in a long time. No, I haven't told him yet. I still don't want to. I think it will just hurt him for no reason.

 

The OM and his W went on a trip together out of the country and have been gone for a couple of weeks, so it's been like NC. I miss him, honestly, but I hope he's having a good time and that he and his wife are getting along and working things out too.

 

He's coming back next week and we'll be spending a lot of time together for a couple of weeks after that because we are going to be finishing up one of the projects we've been working on, and then we're going to cut back for a while.

 

It's so easy for me to do the right thing when I'm not around him. It's easy for me to fall when I am. I can totally see us getting back to our routine of snuggling and innuendo while we work, and if I'm honest, there's a big part of me that's excited about it. But maybe he had an epiphany on his trip and that won't happen, or maybe I'll be stronger than I feel.

 

I know, I know, NC for real is the way I need to go. But I really can't do that yet.

[Untouchable_Fire]

It's so easy for me to do the right thing when I'm not around him. It's easy for me to fall when I am. I can totally see us getting back to our routine of snuggling and innuendo while we work, and if I'm honest, there's a big part of me that's excited about it. But maybe he had an epiphany on his trip and that won't happen, or maybe I'll be stronger than I feel.

 

I know, I know, NC for real is the way I need to go. But I really can't do that yet.

 

 

What is it inside of you that requires attention from this coworker? Do you like the feeling of out competing his wife for his attention? Is there a lack of attention at home?

 

You seem like someone who is really smart, and you would not be here if you did not know there is a problem and want a change.

[whichwayisup]

Until you decide to stop flirting and allowing him into your heart, nothing will change in your marriage. Chances are too, when MM is back and your focus goes back onto him, your husband may notice your emotional distance and starting putting two and two together.

[Tomcat33]

Tell your husband exactly what you just told us. Then ask him if it's wrong. He's the one that counts.

 

 

This is the BEST advice you have been given, short and sweet and SO to the point.

 

Personally, and having been EXACTLY where you are minus having a husband, I think that you are in way over your head. If this guy feels the same way as you and given your "long smoldering looks" comment it seems like you are, what you are about to go through next will prove to be as impossible as trying to stop a speeding train with a feather, ie. IMPOSSIBLE.

 

I'm not sure where you go from here but this project and working that closely will definitely fuel the emotions, if you can walk away from working with him then do it now because you WILL end up in an A with him.

[Tomcat33]

Oh one more thing I forgot to mention given your opening post:

 

you say that you have had no communication with your H as of lately and that you don't have time for each other, but you do have time to get involved in an extracurricular project with this man? Hmmmm...

 

How important is this project to you? I was in the EXACT same situation I met my ex because we wanted to start a side project together and we wanted to combine our talents, later after many hours of working and brainstorming and launching our project we fell in love. Thing is I later found out he knew he was going to fall for me pretty much after the second time we met, UNBEKNOWNST to me.

 

How did you meet this man if you can disclose without giving away too much, did you meet in a social setting or did you meet with the intention to work together?

[Order & Chaos]

You want to be "ethical?" C'mon who are you kidding?

 

Anytime ANYONE invests in another relationship outside of their marriage is investment TAKEN AWAY from that marriage. It's no wonder your marriage is where it is. It's easier to not deal with the truth because it's painful. So you are essentially taken the easy way out.

 

How can any marriage succeed with a third party?

 

Ask yourself this:

 

Would you be able to "ethically" do what you are doing now (flirting and crossing the line) in front of your husband?

 

If the answer is NO, then why do it?

 

If you can consciously without any guilt or remorse answer with a yes, then what that says is that your definition of an "OPEN" marriage is justifiable.

 

So, that begs the question, "Why not let in on your husband" and give him the choice? Hey, maybe he's in the same situation as you are. Maybe he's got an OW you're not aware of. And maybe, you two can keep your marriage based on that openness.

 

Amazing how things can look from a different perspective when there's a sense of "equality" on both sides, isn't?

 

Then this begs the question about any relationship one will have with anyone else, mother, father, best friend, child, etc. Should a married person not invest time into another human being outside of their significate other due to the then lack of time for the spouse?

 

This doesn't make sense or seem healthy. There will ALWAYS be third parties in marriages unless you only speak to your spouse and no others. Otherwise you will always have a potential "threat" to the time with the spouse.

 

There should always be a healthy balance between all sides but the idea that one shouldn't invest in another relationship while married is naive and assinine.

 

I am not saying that there aren't lines that can be crossed but I am definitely not quite on the black and white train in regards to EA that so many on here are. Sometimes it can go too far but I do not want to be my husband's world and his one and only. I have that and the pressure is unbelievable. I enjoyed when he had other people to confide in and talk through his problem especially with our relationship. Your significant other can't wear all hats, that is not healthy.

[angie2443]

Then this begs the question about any relationship one will have with anyone else, mother, father, best friend, child, etc. Should a married person not invest time into another human being outside of their significate other due to the then lack of time for the spouse?

 

This doesn't make sense or seem healthy. There will ALWAYS be third parties in marriages unless you only speak to your spouse and no others. Otherwise you will always have a potential "threat" to the time with the spouse.

 

There should always be a healthy balance between all sides but the idea that one shouldn't invest in another relationship while married is naive and assinine.

 

I am not saying that there aren't lines that can be crossed but I am definitely not quite on the black and white train in regards to EA that so many on here are. Sometimes it can go too far but I do not want to be my husband's world and his one and only. I have that and the pressure is unbelievable. I enjoyed when he had other people to confide in and talk through his problem especially with our relationship. Your significant other can't wear all hats, that is not healthy.

 

It's quite simple. When you are married, you put your spouse above all others. Why would you marry them otherwise? An EA happens when you put another person above your spouse. Even relationships that won't turn sexual, will be harmful to your marriage if they are placed above your marriage. For example, if you share secrets with your best friend and keep them from your spouse, the friendship has now become harmful to your marriage because your alliance is to your friend and not your spouse. If you're making an important life decision, like changing jobs, and you ask your sister what you should do before you take it to your spouse, this is harmful because you value your sister's opinion over your spouse's. People who understand how relationships function get this, it's often the one's who end up in EA's or PA's who don't.

[angie2443]

Tell your husband exactly what you just told us. Then ask him if it's wrong. He's the one that counts.

 

 

The OM's wife counts also. She's a human bieng. She has feelings, wants, and needs also. She is also bieng left in the dark, at least at the time this thread was started.

[Tomcat33]

The OM's wife counts also. She's a human bieng. She has feelings, wants, and needs also. She is also bieng left in the dark, at least at the time this thread was started.

 

 

yes but the question was posed by the OW in question not the OM, so that is HIS duty not hers.v We are here to give HER advice not the OM and what HE should do with his marriage.

[Order & Chaos]

It's quite simple. When you are married, you put your spouse above all others. Why would you marry them otherwise? An EA happens when you put another person above your spouse. Even relationships that won't turn sexual, will be harmful to your marriage if they are placed above your marriage. For example, if you share secrets with your best friend and keep them from your spouse, the friendship has now become harmful to your marriage because your alliance is to your friend and not your spouse. If you're making an important life decision, like changing jobs, and you ask your sister what you should do before you take it to your spouse, this is harmful because you value your sister's opinion over your spouse's. People who understand how relationships function get this, it's often the one's who end up in EA's or PA's who don't.

 

Really!?! Then I would say most of society then doesn't get this as many many people, especially women, have sisters, mothers, friends that they open up to as much or more than their spouse (for a multitude of reasons).

 

And why is the sharing of secrets wrong? What if it is about stuff the other person doesn't care that others know? What if it is to discuss issues with the relationship that will in fact help the relationship?

 

Also, then wouldn't therapy be the deepest strife against a relationship as you are most likely sharing secrets that you have expressed to any one else. You would than have an alliance to your therapist that you may not have to your spouse.

 

And this "idea" is not now traditionally marriages have worked. Traditionally women and men had inner circles (family and same sex friends) that they shared as much if not more with than their spouse. And as everyone seems to tout on here, marriages were always better "back in the olden days".

[angie2443]

Really!?! Then I would say most of society then doesn't get this as many many people, especially women, have sisters, mothers, friends that they open up to as much or more than their spouse (for a multitude of reasons).

 

And why is the sharing of secrets wrong? What if it is about stuff the other person doesn't care that others know? What if it is to discuss issues with the relationship that will in fact help the relationship?

 

Also, then wouldn't therapy be the deepest strife against a relationship as you are most likely sharing secrets that you have expressed to any one else. You would than have an alliance to your therapist that you may not have to your spouse.

 

And this "idea" is not now traditionally marriages have worked. Traditionally women and men had inner circles (family and same sex friends) that they shared as much if not more with than their spouse. And as everyone seems to tout on here, marriages were always better "back in the olden days".

 

 

With your beliefs and ideas of how relationships work, why would you be married? There are of plenty of people who aren't suited for marriage, and at least where I'm from, they are allowed to remain single and live the life that works for them. If you share secrets with others than your spouse and put others in front of your spouse, you can expect your marriage to slowly (or quickly) deteriorate. Why go through the trouble of getting marriad, just to destroy it down the line? This makes no sense.

[Tomcat33]

Really!?! And why is the sharing of secrets wrong? What if it is about stuff the other person doesn't care that others know? What if it is to discuss issues with the relationship that will in fact help the relationship?

 

 

then it's not a secret.

A secret by meaning is is confidential information that cannot be disclosed.

 

But I do see your point in that we DO turn to our friends, mothers and siblings for advice etc. Personally I think it is wrong to turn to someone of the opposite sex to discuss things about a relationship that should be discussed with the relationship partner, though in some instances you cannot you need external imput but doing it with someone that could potentially be a romantic interest is very dangerous.

 

It is NEVER innocuous to start divulging secrets with someone of the opposite sex outside the relationship, and it is always a recipe for dissaster.

[Owl]

Until you decide to stop flirting and allowing him into your heart, nothing will change in your marriage. Chances are too, when MM is back and your focus goes back onto him, your husband may notice your emotional distance and starting putting two and two together.

 

EXACTLY. GREAT ADVICE!!

[Owl]

Really!?! Then I would say most of society then doesn't get this as many many people, especially women, have sisters, mothers, friends that they open up to as much or more than their spouse (for a multitude of reasons).

 

And why is the sharing of secrets wrong? What if it is about stuff the other person doesn't care that others know? What if it is to discuss issues with the relationship that will in fact help the relationship?

 

Also, then wouldn't therapy be the deepest strife against a relationship as you are most likely sharing secrets that you have expressed to any one else. You would than have an alliance to your therapist that you may not have to your spouse.

 

And this "idea" is not now traditionally marriages have worked. Traditionally women and men had inner circles (family and same sex friends) that they shared as much if not more with than their spouse. And as everyone seems to tout on here, marriages were always better "back in the olden days".

 

You're right...many, many marriages don't follow this "golden rule". Makes it a little more clearer to me how we have a 50% infidelity rate...once you understand how affairs tend to start.

 

Here's the thing...intimate communication (sharing secrets/feelings/etc...) with an opposite sex friend (or same sex, if you're homosexual...doesn't matter) is what VERY VERY OFTEN leads to intimate relationships! This is the very basic building block of emotional affairs.

 

EA's start with 'close friendships' very, very often. They talk about friendly things, but with no barriers in their communication that prevents it from escalating into more and more intimate communication. The discussions lead into sharing of secrets, of intimate feelings and details...and this very often leads into an increased attraction for the other person. If the marital communication lags in any way, the 'friendship' begins to be more and more attractive...to the point where its more attractive than the marriage is.

 

This is "affairs 101".

 

As far as sharing with therapists goes...two thoughts. One...how many stories have you heard of relationships starting up with someone's therapist?!?! Enough to make that point. Two, choosing a therapist who is outside of your normal "attraction" type is the smartest thing you can do. Get a same sex therapist, or one clearly outside of the age range you'd even consider as a mate. It reduces that risk considerably.

 

Does this make any more sense to you now?

[Order & Chaos]

Owl, YES, but that is not what angie said. She said turning to ANYONE. I did not indicate opposite sex but actually was referring to same sex or family.

 

And then if opposite sex is wrong, what is you have a gay friend of the opposite sex? Then since they will not be sexually attracted to you then is it okay?

 

Again, I am actually not talking about affairs but arguing angie's point about any sharing of confidence with anyone else outside of your marriage partner. I do not believe that is realistic or healthy belief for one's self or a marriage. I think "bouncing" ideas off of others actually makes someone understand themselves better.

[Order & Chaos]

With your beliefs and ideas of how relationships work, why would you be married? There are of plenty of people who aren't suited for marriage, and at least where I'm from, they are allowed to remain single and live the life that works for them. If you share secrets with others than your spouse and put others in front of your spouse, you can expect your marriage to slowly (or quickly) deteriorate. Why go through the trouble of getting marriad, just to destroy it down the line? This makes no sense.

 

What are my ideas and beliefs? I actually haven't stated how I feel, just playing devil's advocate towards your statements.

 

And where is sharing of secrets and putting others infront of your spouse the synonmous? What does putting others in front actually mean?

 

And out of curiousity what, then should one believe and feel to be worthy of marriage? How should one act for decades to be a worthy candidate?

 

And then, wouldn't therapy be detrimental to a relationship especially if it hasn't been disclosed to the other person?

[twice_shy]

My husband and I have an open marriage

 

So what is the problem? Besides messing around with a MM that might not have an open relationship?

 

 

so I could mess around with him if I wanted, but I know it's a bad idea.

 

Well cheese and rice...you have an open marriage(code for "we want to be able to f##k other people).

 

That whole concept is a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. But it seems too many people in an open marriage have problems with who each other is boning.

 

Either you f##k other people....or you don't.

 

 

It would cause problems, and I work closely with him and can't just quit. I also think his marriage is more traditional and I don't want to hurt his wife, who seems nice although we're nothing alike.

 

Well then let that be what guides your decision. just because you and your H want to mess around on each other, doesn't mean that his wife wants the same from her M.

 

 

Are we already having an EA, though? And are we in danger of crossing any other lines? How would I know? And how do I stop?

 

How do you stop? Its easy....you just.......................stop.

[twice_shy]

Open marriages can have different "rules" depending on what the people who are in it decide. Our rules are basically that we have to be honest with each other about how we're feeling and what we're doing' date=' and tell each other where we are and who we're with. Sleeping with someone wouldn't necessarily be cheating, but sneaking around or keeping secrets would be.[/quote']

 

I'd say none of it is cheating if you are in an open relationship.

 

You 2 chose the lifestyle, don't complain when each of you goes off and gets it elsewhere.

[twice_shy]

An open marriage is no marriage at all' date=' it is contridictory to what marriage is really about. You know the forsaking all others part. What you and your H have is a relationship that you believe is mutually benficial and not a marriage.[/quote']

 

No kidding. why not just live together and cohabitate? Why get married if you don't want to forsake all others?

[angie2443]

What are my ideas and beliefs? I actually haven't stated how I feel, just playing devil's advocate towards your statements.

 

And where is sharing of secrets and putting others infront of your spouse the synonmous? What does putting others in front actually mean?

 

And out of curiousity what, then should one believe and feel to be worthy of marriage? How should one act for decades to be a worthy candidate?

 

And then, wouldn't therapy be detrimental to a relationship especially if it hasn't been disclosed to the other person?

 

 

Sharing secrets, telling others your deepest, most private thoughts creates intimancy. When I say share secrets, I do mean things you don't tell your spouse but tell someone else. You can see in this situation who you would feel most confortable and connected with. If it was your spouse, then you would be sharing with him/her, and not the other person.

 

As far as bieng "worthy" for marriage, I don't consider marriage something you're worthy of or not. I do know that some people have personalities that make marriage almost non-workable. It's kind of like trying out for a sport that you would fail at over and over again because you weren't built right for that sport or you had no skills you could develop. In the case of sports, maybe the joy of playing would overide the fustration of failure. In the case of marriage, the outcome of affairs and failed marriages, is, pain, anger, sadness, bitterness, and broken homes if children are involved. It is much wiser and kinder for these people to avoid marriage and involve themselves in relationships with people who shared the same beliefs.

 

As for your statement about MC, a marriage counselor is an uninterested third party who hears both of your stories and, if the counselor is good, doesn't take sides. Your friends and family(well, usually family is biased anyways) are biased. They have a vested interest in you. Their alliance is with you. If you tell them the troubles in your marriage for instance, your most likely leaving out your spouses side, or parts of it, and your friends will often tell you what you want to hear. They want to remain your friend, afterall.

[theline]

No kidding. why not just live together and cohabitate? Why get married if you don't want to forsake all others?

 

For tax and insurance purposes? Cue the pearl clutching now!

 

We are not traditional or religious people. While we respect people's right to believe what they believe, as I said before, you are unlikely to convince us to believe the same things you do. If you believe in God, you believe that God makes all kinds, right?

 

I agree with Order and Chaos that the way some of y'all are describing relationships sounds really unnatural and unhealthy to me. If I go and confide in my mom or seek her advice about my marriage, am I having an emotional affair with my mom? Really? That's ridiculous to me.

 

To me, we are separate individuals who choose to build a life together.

[Tomcat33]

No kidding. why not just live together and cohabitate? Why get married if you don't want to forsake all others?

 

 

why don't you send your children to a Catholic school instead of public or vice versa if you are doing that? Everyone has children and eveyone agrees to bring up children the best way possible but your child's upbringing may differ drastically from your neighbour's.

 

Marriage is the same, it does not "mean" the same thing to everyone but it SHOULD mean the exact same thing to BOTH parties involved in said marriage.

[angie2443]

Marriage is the same, it does not "mean" the same thing to everyone but it SHOULD mean the exact same thing to BOTH parties involved in said marriage.

 

 

No, it doesn't. In this case, the marriage setup is not working. If it was, the OP wouldn't be hiding things for her husband.

[Order & Chaos]

Sharing secrets, telling others your deepest, most private thoughts creates intimancy. When I say share secrets, I do mean things you don't tell your spouse but tell someone else. You can see in this situation who you would feel most confortable and connected with. If it was your spouse, then you would be sharing with him/her, and not the other person.

 

As far as bieng "worthy" for marriage, I don't consider marriage something you're worthy of or not. I do know that some people have personalities that make marriage almost non-workable. It's kind of like trying out for a sport that you would fail at over and over again because you weren't built right for that sport or you had no skills you could develop. In the case of sports, maybe the joy of playing would overide the fustration of failure. In the case of marriage, the outcome of affairs and failed marriages, is, pain, anger, sadness, bitterness, and broken homes if children are involved. It is much wiser and kinder for these people to avoid marriage and involve themselves in relationships with people who shared the same beliefs.

 

As for your statement about MC, a marriage counselor is an uninterested third party who hears both of your stories and, if the counselor is good, doesn't take sides. Your friends and family(well, usually family is biased anyways) are biased. They have a vested interest in you. Their alliance is with you. If you tell them the troubles in your marriage for instance, your most likely leaving out your spouses side, or parts of it, and your friends will often tell you what you want to hear. They want to remain your friend, afterall.

 

What I was referring to was IC. They would have a vested interested in you then, correct?

 

And so since a party may have a vested interest in one then the other though I would not assume that blood would necc indicate one party over the other, you should not share your troubles with them then?

 

Makes for a very lonely world doesn't it? And it does leave you lacking a support group if the worst case scenerio happens and you lose your significant other.

 

Does your philosophy extend to children as well? That the spouse should be put over them as well?

[Tomcat33]

I agree with Order and Chaos that the way some of y'all are describing relationships sounds really unnatural and unhealthy to me. If I go and confide in my mom or seek her advice about my marriage, am I having an emotional affair with my mom? Really? That's ridiculous to me.

 

Well that depends would you "do" your mom? :laugh:

 

Ok some dark comic relief to ease the tension of the conversation.

 

Of course we will confide our life problems to someone close to us like a family member or friend but to do so with someone of the opposite sex, not a gay friend that doesn't count there is no potential sexual relation that come of that, is very dangerous. Especially to initiate a new "friendship" with somoene of the opposite sex that is how all romantic relationships start through kinship and sharing of life experiences. But to also turn to someone of the opposite sex and "new" in a time of trauma or crisis adds more fuel to the situation because people tend to bond even more under stress or trauma. ANYONE who cannot understand that doesn't understand the meaning of "commitment" in a romantic relationship.

 

Your problems with your spouse/partner are NOT to be discussed with a new person of the opposite set it is common courtesy and basic respect that is owed to your partner.

 

The line are you male or female?