twice_shy Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Now, see. That's me right there! I strive to make my man feel loved. I do what I can to ease his burdens, make love to him with all the skill and passion I have, and would NEVER allow any of my family or friends to disrespect him. However, and silly me for saying so , I expect the same in return. Well I think everyone looks at other people. I'm sure if you admired the way another man looked you'd keep it to yourself. I just never understand men/women breaking their necks to get a good look at someone else, or feeling the need to tell their SO how hot someone else is. Its just damn disrespectful. If someone wants to gawk when not with their SO, hell, knock yourselves out. But have the decency to respect the feelings of your SO. If someone doesn't have that decency, then maybe they'd be better off not in a committed relationship.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Yes it is really interesting how we are conditioned and we make very acceptable excuses for the types of lies that are ok in order to protect our partner's egos. But yet we claim to want honesty in a relationship because that is what utlimately makes us happy. So which is it do we want honesty or do we want watered down versions of honesty because we are too fragile to really handle truths? A person such as myself is looked down up or even mocked for my "poor choices" because I entered into a relationship with a man who manifested lies to his W in order to be with me, yet the very same people claim to want nothing but truth in order to be in a healthy relationship and find a way to justify their own set of lies. Reading between the lines what it should say is "truth is defined by what you want to hear, not necessarily by factual discourse" Honesty is overrated, and for me honesty speaks volumes in actions not words.
TheRain Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 I went to a movie with my H this weekend. In the movie there were scenes of strip clubs, beautiful topless escorts in garter belts cavorting about. One of the main themes of the movie was an affair between a married family man and his temptress mistress who he used to date before he got married. So his wife finds out, and in the end his slim sexy mistress with long flowing locks, gives him a longful look, takes his face in her hands, kisses him and says "it was always you" as she exists all glamorous like, which the wife stands over there by herself, looking awkward in her little yellow dress and pinned up hairdo, only too grateful and eager to take him back when he walks over to her. The long suffering, polly purebread wife who lives her life entirely for her children and husband. It made me so ill I walked out before it was completely over. Whores and mistresses are painted as so sexy and desirable while their wives are these things in the background concerned only with children and living their lives for their husbands, lumped into the thing those married men call "my family". It's disheartening. I feel like men are forever panting after and glorifyling loose, easy sluts, and while viewing their wives as something stable and secure. Sure, they'll bang the old lady, why not? She's laying there isn't she? But it isn't exciting in the way banging sluts is. And all the time, we stupid wives think they only want us. So there we are, making life comfortable and cozy for him, rattling the pots and pans, buying his socks and underwear, and believing that he loves us, when all he wanted is someone to truly love HIM. I wasn't able to meet all his needs, because I didn't speak to that other side of him that the whores did. I was the "wife". I see how men will take a vibrant, independent, smiling, sexual woman and turn her into a semi-frigid, sad creature, then complain because she isn't what he married anymore, doesn't want sex as much and I hurt for all wives out there married for years, and those newly married who will one day find themselves in my position. I thought you were divorcing him. Are you back together?
annieo Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Yes it is really interesting how we are conditioned and we make very acceptable excuses for the types of lies that are ok in order to protect our partner's egos. But yet we claim to want honesty in a relationship because that is what utlimately makes us happy. So which is it do we want honesty or do we want watered down versions of honesty because we are too fragile to really handle truths? A person such as myself is looked down up or even mocked for my "poor choices" because I entered into a relationship with a man who manifested lies to his W in order to be with me, yet the very same people claim to want nothing but truth in order to be in a healthy relationship and find a way to justify their own set of lies. Reading between the lines what it should say is "truth is defined by what you want to hear, not necessarily by factual discourse" Honesty is overrated, and for me honesty speaks volumes in actions not words. I'm totally confused by this. If words are honest, then the actions would be, correspondingly, honest as well. I can't speak for everyone, but I want undiluted truth, even if it hurts. Because then I am sufficiently informed and able to make informed choices about what I want to do. To lie, or water down the truth, you are disrespecting the person who is the recipient (in this case, a person who you supposedly love and respect). I think that the main reason that people lie is to spare themselves a confrontation, and it is rarely about sparing the other persons feelings.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 I'm totally confused by this. If words are honest, then the actions would be, correspondingly, honest as well. Well not necessarily, a person who finds another human being irresitibly attractive and might for a split second wonder what it might be like to get in that person's pants is not the kind of thing most people wish to hear from the person who should "only have eyes for them" So do we really want truth? And this will happen to all of us from time to time. When people get so worked up about a scantilly clad dressed woman on a big screen they are essentially saying I need to control your every thought disguised as expecting nothing but honesty from their partner. When in actuality what you are asking for is the impossible, not honesty. If my partner made me feel like I was loved in every way most of the time, why would I care if in a split moment he feels this sudden urge of sexual attraction to someone other than myself? As long as his actions speak to me, I don't really care to know what is "honestly" going on inside his head. hope that made more sense.
annieo Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Well not necessarily, a person who finds another human being irresitibly attractive and might for a split second wonder what it might be like to get in that person's pants is not the kind of thing most people wish to hear from the person who should "only have eyes for them" So do we really want truth? And this will happen to all of us from time to time. When people get so worked up about a scantilly clad dressed woman on a big screen they are essentially saying I need to control your every thought disguised as expecting nothing but honesty from their partner. When in actuality what you are asking for is the impossible, not honesty. If my partner made me feel like I was loved in every way most of the time, why would I care if in a split moment he feels this sudden urge of sexual attraction to someone other than myself? As long as his actions speak to me, I don't really care to know what is "honestly" going on inside his head. hope that made more sense. Makes way more sense. Thanks. I was talking about actions not thoughts. I take it as a given that my h has sexual thoughts about other people, as do I. I completely respect his mental privacy, as he does mine. I did (would) get a little pissed when he lied to me about things he actually did (it was strip clubs). What you have done, you should be honest about IMO. .
nadiaj2727 Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 If someone wants to gawk when not with their SO, hell, knock yourselves out. But have the decency to respect the feelings of your SO. If someone doesn't have that decency, then maybe they'd be better off not in a committed relationship. Are you serious??? What kind of statement is that? You could easly replace "gawk when not with their SO" with anything else... "flirt when not with their SO", "have sex with their SO"... you are basically saying it is okay to do something behind your SO's back that you wouldn't do when you were with them. That is dishonest. I don't think it's decent to do ANYTHING when you're SO's not around that you wouldn't do when they were right there. "Gawking" is indecent any time... but gawking just because your SO isn't there to catch you is double indecent because it's dishonest. I don't care if he sneaks a peek... I understand that other people are attractive and I do the same. But he'd better show me all the time the person he really is and not pretend to be someone else than when I'm not around. I am actually really surprised that you think this way twice-shy. *shrug* To me, doing anything behind your partner's back that you would have to hide for them (for any reason... even to not hurt their feelings... if you hurt their feelings, you shouldn't be doing it anytime) is disrespectful.
nadiaj2727 Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Makes way more sense. Thanks. I was talking about actions not thoughts. I take it as a given that my h has sexual thoughts about other people, as do I. I completely respect his mental privacy, as he does mine. I did (would) get a little pissed when he lied to me about things he actually did (it was strip clubs). What you have done, you should be honest about IMO. . I completely agree with you annieo. Be honest about your actions (which include gawking, as I was just talking about.) I know you gawk sometimes so just admit you gawk, don't act like you're some perfect boyfriend who never gawks, I'm not that dumb. And I don't think you should change anything about yourself... even gawking at other girls... to give a better "perception" of how you act to your partner. I would not want to be with someone who felt it was okay to gawk when I'm not there but not gawk when I'm there. (or go to strip clubs and not tell me, etc.) Ewww. I hope your H's wisened up about the dishonesty thing. (It sounds like he has but I'm not familiar enought with your story to know.)
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 I completely agree with you annieo. Be honest about your actions (which include gawking, as I was just talking about.) I know you gawk sometimes so just admit you gawk, don't act like you're some perfect boyfriend who never gawks, I'm not that dumb. And I don't think you should change anything about yourself... even gawking at other girls... to give a better "perception" of how you act to your partner. I would not want to be with someone who felt it was okay to gawk when I'm not there but not gawk when I'm there. (or go to strip clubs and not tell me, etc.) Ewww. I hope your H's wisened up about the dishonesty thing. (It sounds like he has but I'm not familiar enought with your story to know.) Yeah right!!! As IF a man would admit anything around you, EEEEK!!! I think you would bite his head off if you found out what he was really thinking/doing behind your back. It shows in your unrealistic demands. Women need to be more secure in themselves. Annieo - I have read a few of your posts and you seem to be really level headed in terms of what you expect and give in your relationship. You have every right to be upset your H would lie about going to strippers behind your back, on the same token you strike me as the type of woman who plays it cool.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Are you serious??? What kind of statement is that? You could easly replace "gawk when not with their SO" with anything else... "flirt when not with their SO", "have sex with their SO"... you are basically saying it is okay to do something behind your SO's back that you wouldn't do when you were with them. That is dishonest. I think Twice-shy just meant "you have plenty of time to look when I'm not around...." gees!
Owl Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 No, sexual attraction is partly instinctual. You and everyone else needs to understand that WE control attraction. If it was all instincts then media images would have no affect on your taste in men. Yet it does. I think that ATTRACTION is instinctual. We see someone/something that we want. We're attracted to another person...we have an interest in that person as a mate/sexual partner/whatever. I think that our RESPONSE to that attraction is what we control. We might not control who we're attracted to, but we make a conscious choice on what we do about that attraction. We can choose to pursue the relationship, we can choose to avoid the relationship. I think that the source of a lot of the problems we see on these forums is caused by people who can't differentiate between what they can and cannot control. Affairs are often conducted by those who don't recognize that it was their CHOICE to pursue the relationship (or to allow it to continue past the point it should have). Instead, they say "we never meant for this to happen"...and so strive to avoid responsibility for their actions and choices. I've been attracted to many women besides my wife over the years. But...I've always refused to feed that attraction. I recognize it for what it is, but instead take action to AVOID allowing that to grow into anything more. Its a simple enough safegaurd to protect my marriage and my vows to my wife.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 No, sexual attraction is partly instinctual. You and everyone else needs to understand that WE control attraction. If it was all instincts then media images would have no affect on your taste in men. Yet it does. I think you've hit on one of my biggest pet peeve topics. I'm really tired of hearing people whine and snivel that they are only attracted to users and abusers. Lazy, stupid people are the ones who refuse to take control of their own emotions and behaviors. Yes it is partitially instinctual in that we are influenced in our mate selection by what we were conditioned on from as early as when we are in our cribs as well as our self image. However attraction has a lot less to do with what we see in the media tries to impost and more to do with our subconscious or instinct. Of course the media can provide images that we find sexually titillating, but that does not mean that is what we want for our mates. While I can appreciate that you think I need to understand how much the media influences my attraction barometer, I think I know fairly well what I like and what I don't like and it has nothing to do with what the media tries to feed down my throat I just know it when I see it. Actually, time and experience has shown me that what I find attractive is almost the complete opposite of what is "in". My friends were floored when they met my boyfriend, they took one look at him and could not believe what all the fuss was about. For starters he is a few inches shorter than I am, most my friends wouldn't be caught dead with a man that was shorter than them. But to me he is the most beautiful, sexy and interesting man alive. I can't explain why I find him irresistible I just do. I love from the way he moves to the way he smells and anyone who sees us can't dismiss the undeniable chemistry between us. I am pretty sure most women in this thread alone who have all these demands on what a man should and should not be have the exact same wall up as my girlfriends that devides their artificial wants from their intuitive needs. Perhaps this is why there are so many single miserable people who seem to be insatiable no matter who or what they meet. For a better understanding on how attraction works and mate selection as well as how to achieve a healthy relationship, I strongly recommend the book "Getting the Love you Want "from Harville Hendrix.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Choosing to NOT tell a loved one every thought that enters your mind is being thoughtful. Simply choosing to NOT tell a brutal honesty that serves no purpose at all is just being nice - not lying. Geezuz! What purpose could it possibly serve to tell my guy every time I find a man attractive? Should I also blather on every time I see a woman who I think is pretty? What's the point? If we're all supposed to run about the earth babbling every time a thought crosses our mind, we'd all be pretty f'ing sick of each other's voices in very short order. Keeping your mouth shut at opportune times isn't lying. It's called discretion. Ok well my boyfriend was planning on leaving his W and there had been talks for their slpit up long before I enetered the picture, choosing to keep me hidden from her was a lie he told to spare her pain. It is the exact same lie you accept from your partner when he spares you pain when he doesn't tells you a not so brutal honesty. Again, where to you draw the line? You either are ok with lies or you are not.
Owl Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Ok well my boyfriend was planning on leaving his W and there had been talks for their slpit up long before I enetered the picture, choosing to keep me hidden from her was a lie he told to spare her pain. It is the exact same lie you accept from your partner when he spares you pain when he doesn't tells you a not so brutal honesty. Again, where to you draw the line? You either are ok with lies or you are not. Perhaps at the point where the "lie" centers around breaking the promises and vows that he made to his wife when they were married? There's nothing noble about his choice to lie about his affair with you. It was an entirely self-serving act...it wasn't done to spare her pain, it was done to avoid his own. It wasn't self-sacrificing...it was self-serving.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) Perhaps at the point where the "lie" centers around breaking the promises and vows that he made to his wife when they were married? The vows were broken when they stopped having sex, when they chose to live a life practically away from one another under the same roof and when she threw herself into her career and chose that over her wifely duties to her husband, she basically showed him in her actions she didn't care if he went out and met someone else because she was too busy to care. Couples swear not to do any of those things as well when they say their vows yet everything is excusable so long as you don't sleep with someone else. I don't think so. There's nothing noble about his choice to lie about his affair with you. It was an entirely self-serving act...it wasn't done to spare her pain, it was done to avoid his own. It wasn't self-sacrificing...it was self-serving Lying, whether it be about an affair or about "your new hair do looks nice" when in fact it looks like cat vomit, is all about serving the self. So if people claim to need honesty to be happy you can't pick and choose when you should be entirely honest and when you have to be "half" honest. Edited April 4, 2008 by sarme
Owl Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 I typed another long response to your post, but then after giving it some thought I recognized that there would be no value in it. You're going to continue to rationalize his lies/cheating/etc...along with your own position in the affair...regardless of what anyone else may say to try to help you see otherwise. I think you'll rationalize and justify anything to support your viewpoint, no matter how many people try to help you see outside of it. With that said, there's little value in continuing this discussion. We'll have to agree to disagree.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 You're not doing your friend any favors by lying. If your opinion is asked for, you can say it nicely. If you say, "Actually, honey, it looks like cat vomit," that just means you're a cold, brutal bitch. But if you say, "I think you actually look better with your hair like (fill in the blanks)," you're still giving an opinion that you don't really care for the style, but you're also intentionally NOT stabbing then twisting the knife. I see what you are saying but what if you really do think it looks like cat vomit? You are essentially asking that the person flat out lie. Paint it how you will, telling him "your other hair looked better" implies this one is not as good but could mean it is not entirely bad either. I think not entirely bad is very different from thinking "looks like cat vomit" So refraining from saying "wow that looks like cat vomit" is lying. You dispise the cut so much you associate it to something gross yet you are watering down the truth to avoid a blow out by hurting your partner's feelings and yours? We water down truths day in day out and we are only truly fully honest half the time, as long as people can accept this then there will be a lot less demans that in actuality are equal to control.
sarme Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 I typed another long response to your post, but then after giving it some thought I recognized that there would be no value in it. You're going to continue to rationalize his lies/cheating/etc...along with your own position in the affair...regardless of what anyone else may say to try to help you see otherwise. I think you'll rationalize and justify anything to support your viewpoint, no matter how many people try to help you see outside of it. With that said, there's little value in continuing this discussion. We'll have to agree to disagree. Thank goodness you would have wasted your words, I have no eyes/ears for is preaching. I am aware of my choices, and I am happy, we are happy. I am neither the slouch in the background of some sex vixen trying to snatch my husband away, nor do I feel like I will ever turn into that because I am in control of my destiny. If and when the man I am with decides he no longer finds me the center of his world I will always have choice, a choice to make my life better and to make a change. As long as you believe in your power to choose then you tend to live more in the present and can really dedicate the quality you need to making each moment a special one and to truly nurture your bond. I also recognize the way we met is less than ideal and it was very risky but I followed my instinct and it lead me down the right path. I waited things through and actions spoke for words so quite frankly you would be absolutely wasting your time trying to tell me my choices were wrong or whatever you had typed out because they feel 100% right. I tend to go by what I feel not by what people suspect. If I had followed what other's advice based on their own preconceived notions and limited experiences was, I would have missed out on being with the love of my life. People try to help and try to give advice and those that sit there and think so much about what to do next let their left brain overpower and cloud their right brain and they lose touch with what could potentially actually be something good for them.
Owl Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Thank goodness you would have wasted your words, I have no eyes/ears for is preaching. One relative constant I've seen in my life...those that need it most usually are the ones who are the blindest to it. Good luck to you, however it works out.
twice_shy Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Yes it is really interesting how we are conditioned and we make very acceptable excuses for the types of lies that are ok in order to protect our partner's egos. But yet we claim to want honesty in a relationship because that is what utlimately makes us happy. So which is it do we want honesty or do we want watered down versions of honesty because we are too fragile to really handle truths? I think its a given that our SO's will find other people attractive without wanting to be with that person. We just don't want or need to hear about it. Again, what is the point of shoving someone elses attractiveness in your SO's face? Trying to piss them off or something?
Trialbyfire Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 One reference that needs to be clarified, is that there's a mark-ed difference between...thinking and over-thinking... Speaking of thinking, if you refer to the movie "Fatal Attraction", Hollywood doesn't always portray the wife in an unflattering light. If anything the OW, is portrayed in a bunny-boiling light.
twice_shy Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 A person such as myself is looked down up or even mocked for my "poor choices" because I entered into a relationship with a man who manifested lies to his W in order to be with me, yet the very same people claim to want nothing but truth in order to be in a healthy relationship and find a way to justify their own set of lies. Reading between the lines what it should say is "truth is defined by what you want to hear, not necessarily by factual discourse" Honesty is overrated, and for me honesty speaks volumes in actions not words. There is a difference between lying and cheating on his wife, and simply not telling you when he finds someone else attractive. Apples and oranges.
Owl Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 One reference that needs to be clarified, is that there's a mark-ed difference between...thinking and over-thinking... "Tis better to have thought and thought long, than to have never thought at all..."???
Eggplants Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Men have too much time on their hands. So do the OW's out there. Wives are left with the chores and the exhaustion of the end of the day.
twice_shy Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 I'm totally confused by this. If words are honest, then the actions would be, correspondingly, honest as well. I can't speak for everyone, but I want undiluted truth, even if it hurts. Because then I am sufficiently informed and able to make informed choices about what I want to do. To lie, or water down the truth, you are disrespecting the person who is the recipient (in this case, a person who you supposedly love and respect). I think that the main reason that people lie is to spare themselves a confrontation, and it is rarely about sparing the other persons feelings. I agree. However when it comes to looking at member's of the opposite sex, that is natural. Wanting the truth about major issues is one thing. Wanting the truth about every thought your SO has in his/her head is another. I am not going to tell my SO if I find someone attractive. It might make her feel bad. I don't want that person. Now if my SO asks me if I find someone attractive, I'll say, "yes, she is pretty". I won't lie. But I'm not gonna do like alot of people do and ready up unsolicited opinions to my SO like, "damn she is freakin' hot". People that do things like that will be in the doghouse and rightfully so.
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