Chapter2 Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I am in a relationship that is at the one year mark. We are both older, single and have children from a previous relationship. We have had a really strong relationship so far and love each other. We have learned, however, that we don't communicate well in some areas. It has led to some unfair arguing on both our parts. His response has typically been, "I'm just a dumb guy, I'm sorry, lets move past it"... I want to dig deeper and find out how we can communicate better so we don't get back to the unfair arguing place again. These arguments have inevitably led to tears on my part which he has said are rediculous and to just stop it. The tears are about frustration in feeling misunderstood and to have him say they are rediculous only makes it that much worse. My mind fast forwards to being married and thinking, okay, if this is how he responds now then his response after a year or two of marriage will be horrific. It scares me to death. He fast forwards and says, okay, if this leads her to tears now then she'll be an overly emotional cry baby after a year or two of marriage. It scares him to death. About a month ago I went back to individual counseling with the goal of learning better ways to communicate. I want so much for this to be a healthy relationship and I think it can be if we learn. He thinks its a super idea for me to be going and learning how to communicate with him better! (note sarcasm on my part) He's all for me doing the work. My question is this... is this normal? Do all couples and successfully married people have to "work" at learning how to communicate with each other or should it just "happen"? I want this to work out but I don't think one of the people in the relationship is supposed to just swallow their feelings for it to work. His belief is that you just move past things and forge ahead. I believe that no matter how much you ignore it, its going to come up and out at some point because people cannot sustain stuffing their feelings forever. Thoughts?
Milan721 Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I wish I had some encouraging advice to give, but I find myself in the same position as you are. My H felt the same way towards my individual counseling. Kind of like - "Good, go do your crying over there. I'm perfectly fine (and in the RIGHT) here." I too fear for the future with our sorry lack of communication skills together. We've tried couples therapy too and he won't budge on his points of view. Anyone I've confided my situation to has said that - short of a miracle, nothing will improve until we are BOTH in therapy. Otherwise, I'm routinely changing the left tire when it's the right one that's flat, if you know I mean. So for now, I'm just walking on eggshells and riding it out I hope it works out better for you!
carhill Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 If you think therapy will help, it will. Give us an example of a typical "miscommunication" A typical issue my wife and I have, as an older married couple with strong personalities, is talking "at" each other instead of with each other during more intense discussions. I like to call them "debates" Therapy has taught me how to mirror her so she knows I'm hearing her and invite her to take a timeout if she seems overwhelmed. I can go on for hours In our case, the disparity issues from our disparate personalities and emotional makeups. I'm a lot more emotionally sensitive than she is and I typically have to feel very angry or upset for her to even notice I've got a problem. So, she's just getting on board and I'm overwhelmed (in those instances). If you all love each other and have a good emotional connection, you'll figure it out; therapy helps IMO.
Author Chapter2 Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 I wish I had some encouraging advice to give, but I find myself in the same position as you are. My H felt the same way towards my individual counseling. Kind of like - "Good, go do your crying over there. I'm perfectly fine (and in the RIGHT) here." I too fear for the future with our sorry lack of communication skills together. We've tried couples therapy too and he won't budge on his points of view. Anyone I've confided my situation to has said that - short of a miracle, nothing will improve until we are BOTH in therapy. Otherwise, I'm routinely changing the left tire when it's the right one that's flat, if you know I mean. So for now, I'm just walking on eggshells and riding it out I hope it works out better for you! I'm so sorry. That is the very thing I fear. I do hope things improve for you, even if a little bit. If you think therapy will help, it will. Give us an example of a typical "miscommunication" A typical issue my wife and I have, as an older married couple with strong personalities, is talking "at" each other instead of with each other during more intense discussions. I like to call them "debates" Therapy has taught me how to mirror her so she knows I'm hearing her and invite her to take a timeout if she seems overwhelmed. I can go on for hours In our case, the disparity issues from our disparate personalities and emotional makeups. I'm a lot more emotionally sensitive than she is and I typically have to feel very angry or upset for her to even notice I've got a problem. So, she's just getting on board and I'm overwhelmed (in those instances). If you all love each other and have a good emotional connection, you'll figure it out; therapy helps IMO. An example...yesterday we spent the day together with the kids. It was a day we had rescheduled for a day that had been cancelled earlier in the week. We had made a plan for the initial day but I didn't anticipate that yesterday would be exactly the same. His child asked a question about what we would do in the evening and he answered without asking if it was okay with me. I said, "we are" and he said, "well, yes, that's what we were going to do the other day, why wouldn't we do it now?" All the circumstances were different yesterday so it wasn't going to work, but he wanted it that way. I told him that I wanted to be included in discussing what the plan was and he was very defensive about it and accused me of really just not wanting to be with them where he wanted to be. I have a hard time with feeling that I have a voice with him and this was one of those times. My fear is that he's teaching me how controlling he can be. He'll say something is just fine and then spend the next half hour attempting to change it so that it fits his agenda. If it doesn't change, he gets angry. Last night was pretty bad. Hugs were not what I needed...I needed reconciliation and discussion. He wanted to blow right past it. I sent him an email this morning telling him how I felt and that I needed time. I told him I couldn't work on communication for us by myself and that I couldn't be in a relationship where shaming me was how he reacted to emotion. I haven't heard a word...nothing. While I know this is a problem, I'm so afraid of losing him. I think communication skills can be learned but he doesn't seem to want to.
carhill Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I'll tell you something which works for me (remember, gender reversal here, but our issues are similar).... I get quiet. Not angry quiet but just quiet and reflective. This is different from my usual chatterbox engaging style of connecting. My wife wonders what's going on and seeks me out. I talk less and more quietly. I call it a change-up. Most of the time it does work to open a dialogue. This presupposes that your SO has interest in the R. My wife, like many men, tends to disconnect emotionally during intense discussions, especially where emotional perspectives are involved, so I have to utilize techniques often used by women with their husbands/SO's. I've also learned to be less detail oriented and hence more flexible about plans and not so particular about everything being perfect. I expect my wife to appreciate my compromise and make a genuine effort to hold up her commitments. No kids here so I can only empathize
OldEurope Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Chapter 2, Carhill's points are very well taken...I also believe that going silent--again, not angry, pissy silent--but just let-me-weave-this-through-my-mind silent really does work. You become "mysterious" and mystery always keeps em coming... Another point. Never underestimate the power of humor. There is something about flipping the switch in your mind to take an absurd argument (and stuff about schedules, plans, going this way or this way almost always falls into this category) and to "spin it" to your advantage. Use humor. Smile broadly at these times and say something to the effect of "Well, I am going to love seeing how this works! I think I will sit back and enjoy the ride..." Something that does not make you look like the spoil sport but still gets a little zing in there that you'd like to have a say in these matters... How to keep the relationship? This kind of rise-above-it attitude, sense of humor because it underscores that most important frame of mind you must have to keep a relationship strong: The Big Picture. Remember, the big picture is all that matters. Always say to yourself, what is Important here? Where did we come from as a couple? Where are we going? What do I value here? What do I want to hold on to and never lose? You will find that when these larger themes preoccupy your mind, some of the more quotidien things will be put into perspective. You are probably saying: Yes, But...There are issues we must get through...There are details which need attention.... Yes and no. When the foundations of a relationship are strong, you can go on cruise control a bit in the sense of not questioning, analyzing, stopping and stopping every little dimension of things. Keep in mind you are with another human creature who has an entire life and universe in his mind. There are going to be some bumps. And the truly intelligent either a) apply, as I said above, a big fresh breath of humor to it all, or b) if that isn't possible, to pull away, go a bit calm cool and collected away. This too gives things "breathing space" and I believe that a relationship has to be aired-out from time to time. All you need is to once, twice make your likes and dislikes known. There doesn't need to be a "discussion" with everything. I believe strongly in "communication" but I do not believe that endless jammering about every detail is so good either. Sometimes a sexy wink or a elbow playfully jabbed in his side, or "making fun" or some of his arguments can do miracles. You do not want him to think you are all gloom and doom... What I think the hidden problem is, is that you are insecure in the relationshp. I get the sense you are not sure how he feels about you, although you state at the beginning there is a strong bond of love. That said, something gives me the sense that you aren't quite on strong footing in the whole thing and hence you are "questioning" and turning everything over in your mind, once too often. You are educated and articulate, it shows. Hence "communication" I do not think is the problem. I think you are anxious for him to see "your way". However, at the core of wanting him to appreciate your views might be some previous hurt, the desire for some confirmation that wasn't perhaps there in a previous relationship. Be careful of this. In this sense "communication" can become clingy, and you know how people bolt from clingy. So just be on guard that in wanting to "make your feelings known" you just aren't trying to compensate for some other bit of black hole that might be there from something else. "It all shouldn't be so difficult" is really how a good relationship should frame itself. And I think you can say what needs to be said with a bit of style and firmness--but then that is it. Don't "push" it all too much. xoxo OE
carhill Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Very important point....the balance between humor and serious intent. When I was under a lot of stress, I masked it with false humor. Bad choice. It did two bad things. It served to mask my true feelings of being overwhelmed as well as giving my wife the impression that everything was hunky dory. A balance between the two is important. If you read my postings here, you'll see how I utilize that nuance now. A dry one liner or some self deprecating humor and then on with the subject. Sometimes an off-topic zinger Anyway, OldEurope's assertion is well-taken. Balance is a good thing, as long as it's sincere.
Woggle Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Women need to understand that men don't deal with all this emotional crap. Half the time we don't know what the hell they are so upset about in the first place. Too many times women treat relationships like a scab and keep trying to pick at it but if you pick at a scab too much it will get infected.
smartgirl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 The kind of communication needed for a GOOD marriage often does not come naturally and help is needed. My H and I have been together for 34 years. Most of that time things were harmonious and happy with virtually no fights. Life got harder, we both became somewhat unhappy, he wound up having an A. That got us talking honestly in a way we never had. We went to MC and did a lot reading. We realize now that we both tended to make assumptions, withhold talking about what was bothering us, we weren't clearly seeing where the other person was coming from or how they viewed particular things, we didn't really know how to talk about very sensitive subjects without coming across as critical. We are both much happier now. If your SO will not engage on this subject, and he must to get any improvement, then you either have to leave him or live with it. Some men can be remarkably afraid of emotion or conflict. My H was and I'm not sure he would have done all this work if it wasn't for the nuclear explosion caused by the A. Your fella has got to respect you enough to see this is important to you and participate. Your IC may be able to help you communicate this to him in a way that get through his defenses.
SnapCracklePop Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I'll start a thread about my situation soon... but I'll offer my thoughts from the man's perspective. Yes, we are afraid to rock the boat, and many of us do not handle emotional situations well. It is much easier to avoid it than to deal with it directly. Communication takes work. I think most people take social etiquettes and apply them to their relationship - which in retrospect now, probably not such a good thing. It is one thing to make the people (not SOs) around you comfortable by allowing some things to slide, or biting your tongue... but in a relationship, I can see that living in a way to avoid conflict is neither effective or enjoyable. Brutal honesty is not easy and requires that you trust without question or hesitation both yourself and your partner - a luxury that many of us here don't have it would seem. Opening up in this way makes us more "naked" than anything else, and this conflicts with the inner tendancy to cover up. Its funny though how it is so easy to say how essential communication is - whether the message is good or bad... yet actually taking this advice for ourselves is so difficult. I am certainly guilty of this too.
Curmudgeon Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 My question is this... is this normal? Do all couples and successfully married people have to "work" at learning how to communicate with each other or should it just "happen"? I want this to work out but I don't think one of the people in the relationship is supposed to just swallow their feelings for it to work. His belief is that you just move past things and forge ahead. I believe that no matter how much you ignore it, its going to come up and out at some point because people cannot sustain stuffing their feelings forever. Thoughts? My wife and I were 48 and 50, respectively, when we married. We're now 59 and 61 and still married. We both have children from previous marriages, seven of them altogether, and share eight grandchildren with another due in August. Although we'd been friends for five years before we started dating and were former co-workers, we had to learn a whole new way of communicating with one another once we became a couple. Both of us being rather Alpha types worked well for us professionally and led us to some great debates but in marriage we each had to soften our approaches and learn how to agree to disagree. Two lessons we fortunately learned early-on when it came to communication was that we had to present a united front to all the children, we had to put one another and our relationship/marriage first and we couldn't make commitments for one another without the other's prior knowledge and permission. To do so isn't just rude, it's thoughtless and uncaring. Needless to say, none of this just happened and we recognized, early-on, that neither of us would become, nor should we, subservient to the other in terms of swallowing or masking our feelings. That's not healthy and not necessary. Moving beyond hurts, disappointments, frustrations, etc. is the ideal but ONLY after they've been resolved. If you simply ignore them they tend to grow and fester. One mark of good communication is the ability to have conversations rather than confrontations and settle issues which may then move to the past. I wish you both the best of luck. Even after going on 12 years of marriage, my wife's and my skills are still works in progress, as are we.
quankanne Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 long-time married myself, and as curm points out, marriage is definitely a work in progress because you're always striving for better communication. Kinda like tweaking your computer to make it run more efficiently or knowing how to properly care for your car so that it works at optimum effect. then again, those are poor analogies, because the car and the computer in inanimate objects, where as a couple in a relationship is bringing two completely different things to the table. Like woggle mentions, men feel that women harp on things when they consider the subject closed, whereas women like to hash and rehash until they get a fuller understanding. Good communication respects both styles and finds a happy medium. don't give up on your stubborn little mule of a husband, but help him to see that you can only do so much without HIS input or reciprocity!
Mr. Lucky Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Women need to understand that men don't deal with all this emotional crap. Half the time we don't know what the hell they are so upset about in the first place. Too many times women treat relationships like a scab and keep trying to pick at it but if you pick at a scab too much it will get infected. While I think that Woggle may have overstated his point, I also feel that he has touched on something important. Many women are attracted to the strong, silent type of man and then, after they're together, want to change the "silent" part. As someone who comes from a family of stoic, reserved men and grew up the same way, it can be tough to teach an old dog new tricks. While I'm sure that it can be frustrating being married to someone that feels that actions speak much louder than words, that doesn't mean that one communication style is wrong and the other is right. Sometimes you just have to appreciate the differences... Mr. Lucky
Author Chapter2 Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 I just got off work and logged on...thank you so much for all your posts. I can't tell you how much I appreciate having so much input. Everyone's relationship is diffierent and I value all the input I can get. What I think the hidden problem is, is that you are insecure in the relationshp. I get the sense you are not sure how he feels about you, although you state at the beginning there is a strong bond of love. That said, something gives me the sense that you aren't quite on strong footing in the whole thing and hence you are "questioning" and turning everything over in your mind, once too often. You are educated and articulate, it shows. Hence "communication" I do not think is the problem. I think you are anxious for him to see "your way". However, at the core of wanting him to appreciate your views might be some previous hurt, the desire for some confirmation that wasn't perhaps there in a previous relationship. Be careful of this. In this sense "communication" can become clingy, and you know how people bolt from clingy. So just be on guard that in wanting to "make your feelings known" you just aren't trying to compensate for some other bit of black hole that might be there from something else. "It all shouldn't be so difficult" is really how a good relationship should frame itself. And I think you can say what needs to be said with a bit of style and firmness--but then that is it. Don't "push" it all too much. xoxo OE UGH...The insecurity you may be picking up on is not having had a voice in so many previous relationships. I am so determined not to live like that anymore that having him "hear" me has become life or death, which I admit, puts too much pressure on him. My fear presents itself in my tendency to run away instead of cling which is completely baffling to him. Actually, now that I think about it, I vascilate between clinging and running. Sounds fun for him, huh? This is the very reason I have gone back to counseling. I want desperately to relate in a healthy way and am painfully aware that I may not know how. Don't get me wrong...he has his flaws. He'll go out of his way to avoid the elephant in the room when there is one and I am learning he can be very controlling...this scares me. Aside from that, he's a wonderful person. His heart is in the right place and I know he purposes to love me well. I am often my own worst enemy but I'm working on it. Thank you OE...as always, you have mastered truth spoken in love:) ((hugs)) Very important point....the balance between humor and serious intent. When I was under a lot of stress, I masked it with false humor. Bad choice. It did two bad things. It served to mask my true feelings of being overwhelmed as well as giving my wife the impression that everything was hunky dory. A balance between the two is important. If you read my postings here, you'll see how I utilize that nuance now. A dry one liner or some self deprecating humor and then on with the subject. Sometimes an off-topic zinger Anyway, OldEurope's assertion is well-taken. Balance is a good thing, as long as it's sincere. I have been guilty of false humor as well. My false humor comes out as insensitive truth framed in humor and is always transparent. I want that balance but it has definitely been a two steps forward, one step back journey for me. Women need to understand that men don't deal with all this emotional crap. Half the time we don't know what the hell they are so upset about in the first place. Too many times women treat relationships like a scab and keep trying to pick at it but if you pick at a scab too much it will get infected. Emotional crap and scabs...your sensitivity is staggering as always Woggle. Thanks for weighing in on how a healthy relationship should look;) Two lessons we fortunately learned early-on when it came to communication was that we had to present a united front to all the children, we had to put one another and our relationship/marriage first and we couldn't make commitments for one another without the other's prior knowledge and permission. To do so isn't just rude, it's thoughtless and uncaring. Needless to say, none of this just happened and we recognized, early-on, that neither of us would become, nor should we, subservient to the other in terms of swallowing or masking our feelings. That's not healthy and not necessary. Moving beyond hurts, disappointments, frustrations, etc. is the ideal but ONLY after they've been resolved. If you simply ignore them they tend to grow and fester. One mark of good communication is the ability to have conversations rather than confrontations and settle issues which may then move to the past. I wish you both the best of luck. Even after going on 12 years of marriage, my wife's and my skills are still works in progress, as are we. Thank you for sharing your experience. We aren't married yet, but have talked about it and are both agreed that we are headed in that direction (unless I somehow sabatoge it) Your united front to the children is dead on but I would imagine very difficult at times. I haven't even touched on my fears regarding blending our families. 12 years of marriage is something to be very proud of. Such a work in progress seems absolutely worth it to me, but involves the willingness to be vulnerable. Keep it coming! I'll take all the input I can get:)
OldEurope Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 UGH...The insecurity you may be picking up on is not having had a voice in so many previous relationships. I am so determined not to live like that anymore that having him "hear" me has become life or death, which I admit, puts too much pressure on him. My fear presents itself in my tendency to run away instead of cling which is completely baffling to him. Actually, now that I think about it, I vascilate between clinging and running. Sounds fun for him, huh? This is the very reason I have gone back to counseling. I want desperately to relate in a healthy way and am painfully aware that I may not know how. Don't get me wrong...he has his flaws. He'll go out of his way to avoid the elephant in the room when there is one and I am learning he can be very controlling...this scares me. Aside from that, he's a wonderful person. His heart is in the right place and I know he purposes to love me well. I am often my own worst enemy but I'm working on it. ((Chapter 2)) :love:, I think you see that you are basically answering your own questions. It is not so much "communication" that is the problem, but it is the fear and anxiety from past relationships that is blocking the process of com-mun-i-cat-ing. This is what has you "stuck" in a kind of emotional paralysis. I am no counselor, but I think the focus here should be to understand why you believe that in this relationship, the "ghosts" of your past could necessarily undermine the relationship you have with your current beau. --Does he say things which remind you of past scenarios where things suddenly or directly after some time went bad. --If yes, are you reading too much into his saying-those-things because you were formerly hurt? In his mind, are these things perfectly harmless in and as of themselves? --Are there certain "categories" of subject matter which, when approached, grip you with fear that you are going to "drop the ball", or "encourage" another fight? These categories might be: --You as Part of a Couple (your example of the day trip and no proper consultation in your mind--were "coupledom"-type decisions, no matter how banal, in the past often an issue as well?) --Your Looks/Health ( I am assuming he is wildly attracted to you , but are there any "issues" that he has brought up which trigger something from the past which make you anxious?) --Your Emotional Place in Life (You came out of a complicated situation and you are in a new situation you are trying to treat like gold. This is in itself daunting. Is there anything in your past where you felt nervous "in transition" between relationships? Were you too anxious in other relationships, too rushed and now you are hoping to avoid those kinds of characteristics creeping into you new situation and undermining it?) --Your Personal/Individual/Professional Place in Life (Are you fulfilled as an individual? Are there unfinished goals, unachieved professional priorities (you'll get them!), unanswered questions about who you want to be which are making you nervous with yourself hence transferring that nervousness into the relationship? You know that first you must be "settled" as an individual before proceeding as a couple or those insecurities can and will project themselves onto the relationship. At issue here, really, is that of self-esteem. To my mind, the "communication" is secondary. Because I somehow just do not doubt that you can communicate with him (that particular problem--communicating, itself--is to my mind more for those who have a difficult time with emotional expression. A whole other ball game). You do seem to be in touch with what is on your mind, you are very self reflective. So "verbalization", to give it another name, is not quite it. I think, instead, as I said at the beginning, that you are more or less terrified to see or feel "reminder-characteristics" of past relationships which preceeded the "downfall" of those relationships, and you want to know how the h*ll to side-step them. What I think needs to be done is to get to the core issues of a) why those characteristics are showing up and repeating themselves in this relationship in the first place; b) if many of those characteristics aren't just "normal" stuff into which you might be reading too much into and c) if you are not quite comfortable with "Chapter 2", and that discomfort is projecting itself onto the relationship. (Then he, not quite sure what is going on, is confused, you feel misunderstood and boom--"communication problems") You want to avoid, at all costs, of course, being a "self-fulfilling prophecy" i.e. because things have gone wrong in the past, you might as well push along things going wrong again because you feel somehow fated to that. I know that "intellectually" you know better than that, but there are always those annoying little games our psyche/ego/personalities play with us which can make you unconsciously bring such a fate about. Be careful of this. I am wishing you the very best of strength.. xoxo OE
Bobby NoBrains Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 My question is this... is this normal? Do all couples and successfully married people have to "work" at learning how to communicate with each other or should it just "happen"? I want this to work out but I don't think one of the people in the relationship is supposed to just swallow their feelings for it to work. His belief is that you just move past things and forge ahead. I believe that no matter how much you ignore it, its going to come up and out at some point because people cannot sustain stuffing their feelings forever. Thoughts? It's normal. All couples, even the best-matched ones, have to work on it now and then. It's how effective you are at working on it that really makes the difference. No, you're not supposed to swallow the feelings, you're supposed to work it out so that both people get heard and, optimally, a solution is found that solves both peoples' issues. Practically that's very tough especially if you have strongly opposing views on something, but hey, that's what marriage is about, finding the middle path when one or the other way is not acceptable to both people. Keeping your feelings stuffed inside won't help because that usually leads to a blow-up, often at inopportune times, and those are never very good. But crying about it also won't help because it makes him feel helpless and he will mostly fail to understand why you need to take that extreme step, and will react accordingly. What you might try is that if something fails to get resolved in normal course of an "argument", if it is sufficiently important for either of you, make a special time out for that issue and try to work it out in as reasonable a way as possible. The mere realization that it is important enough for either or both people, and the knowledge that the other is willing to listen and willing to try to work it out will go a long way in resolving the issue even before it gets to the most contentious stage. Things usually get better over time if you work on conflict resolution within the marriage rather than leaving things to simmer and hope that the problems will go away. More effective communication will help but being a good listener works as well sometimes. In fact listening to what is being said rather than how it is being said sometimes takes away a lot of the conflicts. Meh, I'm wandering ... Just my two bits .. Bobby
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