Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 It becomes an affair/wrong when you take away time from your SO to spend with the other person. I have quite a bit of female friends and my wife is aware of all of them. She knows when I go do something with them, however she has full trust in me. There was only one friend of mine that stepped over the boundary and when that happened, I stopped contact with her. Like my wife, your GF should be number one priority. By you investing in this OW, you take away from your GF. This is part of the reason why your communication/relationship has gone sour with your GF. You are looking for what you are missing with this other chick. If she was doing this to you, I think you would feel betrayed, cheated and hurt. Why don't you give us some more detail about your GF then 'it's just about over'. Just don't list what she's done wrong, but the both of you.. Thanks for your input. Again, my relationship with my GF has nothing to do with this. I have posted a story about my GF patting some other guy's ass, then my questioning her about it, then her going berzerk about my questioning, and then that's about it. I disagree with this investing thing as well. Life is all about balance. When I feel like watching a ball game with my buddies, I am also taking time away from my GF. She is (was) where I invested myself emotionally but it doesn't mean that she has to be my entire world. I've been with her for a number of years. I think we've had a successful relationship so enough about this female friend causing this and that. We had good times and now it's just about over. I do have another prospect in mind and no, it's not this married friend from out of town.
Owl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I'm not trying to convince anyone to apply my method. I'm just saying that people who respond to these forums always go by the same stereotype. And while there is a reason why stereotypes exist, stereotypes definitely aren't always true. I'll say that there are indeed 'exceptions to every rule'. But I'm curious...given that you admit that "there is a reason why these stereotypes exist"...what do you expect anyone to say or do in response to your question? The vast majority of the time...that "rule" is true. So of course, the vast majority of answers are going to reflect that. That doesn't make those answers wrong...as a matter of fact...that means that they're most commonly right. Would you expect everyone to give responses based on the exceptions, rather than the rule? Wouldn't make much sense, in my book. What response were you looking for? Last comment...you'd mentioned that: Based on your thoughts, I guess you don't think close friendship is possible with someone of the opposite sex. Again, your opinion would be shared by many. I think men and women can be friends. I think that single men and women can be close friends...but it may cross that line at some point. I do NOT feel that its safe for married men and/or women to be CLOSE friends. As I've already described...its a clear risk to the marriage. Let me ask you something further...given your views on communication within a relationship, and communication between opposite sexes outside of the relationship...what do YOU think leads to emotional intimacy, leads to building love, between men and women? If you don't feel that the deep sharing between members of a marriage is required...what DO you think is required to keep the marital relationship healthy? How do you develop a deep emotional bond (love) between spouses if that communication isn't the key?
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 I was just sharing my situation and did not ask any particular questions. That being said, I do not share your opinion on this but I respect it. I think I'm an unconventional person who likes to challenge the standards. And in today's world, where more than half of marriages end up in divorce, I think it is appropriate to question the model in place. I think the quality of communication is the key rather than being pushed to tell "everything". I think everyone is entitled to their secret garden and I think those who won't acknowledge this are in self denial. I don't mean to be a pest but I do have two questions for you: 1) If a married woman should not have any close male friends, does it mean she should forget all the friendships she had before her marriage? Aren't friends forever? 2) Why did your W get into an EA? In response to the second question, your reaction is to add more rules to the relationship. Mine is to lessen these barriers. Which answer is right? I guess it depends on the individual. This is the same issue as raising teenagers. How strict should you be with them? I think it has been proven many times that being too strict (or not strict enough) with teenagers can cause various problems. It's all about positioning yourself on the spectrum.
Owl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 This is an interesting thread. Thank you! First off...could you elaborate on the "quality of communication" concept you mention? I'm interested in hearing how it differs from my own understanding. Again, I'm really interested in the practical application of it...how would YOU maintain a healthy marital relationship applying your views on communication...I'm interested in examples in how you see this applying. And I've got no issues in replying to your questions: 1. If she had close relationships with men that crossed what I feel are comfortable boundaries...then yes, she would either have to modify that relationship, no longer keep that friendship...or we wouldn't marry. But don't forget...I WOULD HAVE THAT SAME EXPECTATION FOR MY OWN FRIENDSHIPS AS WELL. This isn't a double standard...this would apply across the board for both of us. 2. My wife got into her EA primarily for the same thing we're discussing...poor boundaries. We'd been married 17 years, and had hitten one of those 'low spots', where we were dealing with issues with the kids, bills, etc... Add to that her untreated depression, and bingo...you get a perfect setup for an affair. She was a stay at home mom, but the kids were in school during the day. She'd game online during the day, ended up spending a lot of time with one particular person in game...next thing you know, the IM when he's at work, he calls her...the emotional affair is on. Had she had those "boundaries" more firmly in place, it would have avoided the issue. She USED TO feel just like you do now...up until she went through the affair. She can look back now and clearly see where things 'crossed the line', and how it could have been avoided if she had set better limits on her conversations and interaction with opposite sex friends. Its interesting that you bring up the raising teenager concept. I'm the proud dad of four kids. Two are in their 20s now, and two are approaching them. So I know all about the view that people take about 'being too strict'. I've seen my kids's friends tell their parents to "f-off", I've seen them run ramshod over house rules, treat their siblings like crap, etc... And I think the reason that we've got a lot of the issues with young adults today is because parents were afraid to set good ground rules for their kids. Our kids weren't raised that way. We had good rules...with good reasons for them. Nothing was done "just because". If there was a reason that they thought the rule was unfair, it was up to them to prove it, and provide a reasonable alternative. Sometimes they DID get a modification...most often, they came around to our way of thinking. Raising teens is a tough thing. You have to take the time to understand them. You have to show them that the reasons that you do the things the way you do is to benefit them and everyone else. I have a very close relationship even today with my boys. The older ones don't live at home, but they still come over a lot, we all play paintball, do martial arts, etc...together. They realize now that the rules we had in place make sense...even if they didn't make sense to them at the time. I get that you're an unconventional person who likes to challenge the standards. Let me ask you...WHY? What do you gain from doing so? Nothing wrong with challenging the standards...if you can offer up a workable replacement and sound reasoning to support your side of things. Otherwise, you're just raising a fuss for the sake of argument. What's your workable replacement and reasoning?
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 There are two principles that I keep in mind when analyzing all of this. First of all, temptation. Couples divorce today because they can. Women have affairs because they can. In fact, most divorces are initiated by women. Temptation is everywhere. I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing - I'm just describing the world as it is. Kids want Nike shoes because of the massive advertising campaigns and people nowadays want to be "happy". Women want stability AND excitement. They want to raise a family AND boost their self esteem by having a decent career. But something's gotta give, right? The second concept I think about is the binge/purge theory. People are bombarded with temptations. I believe that by setting firm boundaries, the **** will eventually hit the fan. You resist temptation for as long as you can and eventually (e.g. after 17 years), you can't take it anymore. Your wife has gotten back to her senses but that's only AFTER she realized what she could lose for indulging in a stupid EA. Had you not busted her bubble, she would still feel thirsty for adventure and emotional excitement. It's a cycle that's inevitable for every couple out there. You see, in my view it's not the pseudo friendship that caused the EA but rather her unhappiness being at home and feeling like a useless housewife. So rather than completely closing the tap for X years and then being flooded by an unexpected crisis, I'd rather let things a bit looser and let the water run a bit everyday. Flirting is fun so let her have it. Is my theory any better? I don't know... But that's the one I feel more comfortable with. Where does communication fit in all of this? Well, your wife felt like a useless housekeeper, her self esteem was low, she needed to feel beautiful again. You have failed where 99.9% of males also fail: you took your wife for granted. That's what I mean by the "quality" of communications. My opinion is, if I make sure my partner feels desired and beautiful and important, what does it matter that I have dinner with another woman? Like my late grandfather always said, it's all about balance! Too much of anything will ruin it for you. Too much rules (or not enough) will spoil a relationship. How do you apply the correct dosage? Well, it's all a matter of adjusting with your environment and your own values.
whichwayisup Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Not believing in "1+1=1" does NOT mean not investing myself totally in a relationship. For you, okay. But, once someone is married, hense your woman friend - All bets are off. It's just inappropriate behaviour of someone married to go out late at night and do dinner and drinks with another man, especially a man that her husband doesn't reall know about it. The rules kind of change when one is married, there are just some things that get sacrificed and going out late at night, one on one with another man is one of them. Trust or not, it's just something a married person shouldn't be doing..I would feel uncomfortable if my H was out late and doing dinner/drinks with another woman. I trust him, but I wouldn't be pleased...So, because of him knowing how I would feel, he just wouldn't go, he'd do the dinner, at a normal hour or lunch.
Owl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Flirting is fun so let her have it. Is my theory any better? I don't know... But that's the one I feel more comfortable with. Here's the thing...I DID let her flirt. I tolerated it, as I thought that it would be ok, she loved me. And where did it lead? She flirted online with the guy she nearly left me for. Had she NOT flirted...had this been a strong boundary...he wouldn't have been as interested, nor would things have likely progressed. Loosening up is where most couples start out. They don't have the strong boundaries to begin with. They don't understand the risks to their marriage, they don't realize that crossed boundaries are what lead to temptation...that lead to other things. Its not that people are repressed nowadays...its exactly the opposite. Look at how things are NOW, compared to 40 years ago. Divorce is higher, infidelity is more rampant...and that's because people have WEAKER boundaries now than before...not stricter. Back in the 50s/60s, inappropriate marital behavior was a MUCH bigger deal than it is today. And the divorce rate/infidelity rates were all lower. That doesn't seem to support your theory so far. On communication...my wife felt like a useless housekeeper because she was depressed and refused treatment for it. She'd had a job, up to about a year prior to her affair. She had to take time off because she broke her leg...during that time off, she became addicted to online gaming, and refused to fight to keep her job when her time off became an issue. I was the one TRYING to communicate in our marriage. We'd been doing fine all those years...and looking back, she AGREES that things were going right...up until that last year when she went haywire. Her depression, her excessive online gaming...THAT was the source of contention in our marriage that last year. THAT was what led up to her emotional affair. Sorry...I was not like 99% of men...I've been an excellent communicator on a lot of levels for a very long time. I don't take the 'blame' for my wife's choice to have an affair...because it was a choice she made, DESPITE my efforts. You're right about the balance and rules...I agree with that. It was when we balanced the rules by making them more realistic...we enforced those boundaries...that we improved our odds of staying together.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 Anyhow, regardless of our debate, you've been with her forever and you have four grown up kids. Despite the few road blocks, I think your couple is a great success - congrats. I'm a bit younger than you and have yet to find the proper balance on this. Among my close friends, those who are happier tend to be those who untighten the leash every now and then. Those who don't tend to die a bit more everyday.
BetrayedMM Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 1) If a married woman should not have any close male friends, does it mean she should forget all the friendships she had before her marriage? Aren't friends forever? There is this little line in the marriage vows about forsaking all others. Granted, some people don't take that or the vows seriously, and some don't respect that someone has taken those vows, but it's there. The part of this that struck me as odd is the second question. It almost sounds like you've committed yourself to your relationship with this woman for life.
Author guy.lepage Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 There is this little line in the marriage vows about forsaking all others. Granted, some people don't take that or the vows seriously, and some don't respect that someone has taken those vows, but it's there. The part of this that struck me as odd is the second question. It almost sounds like you've committed yourself to your relationship with this woman for life. Taking these vows does not mean the end of the rest of your life. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves. As for your second paragraph, you are missing the point entirely. Marriage and friendship are not mutually exclusive.
Owl Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 No, but those of us who have been through the pain of infidelity can attest that a SUCCESSFUL marriage and close interpersonal frienships with members of the opposite sex are mutually exclusive. And on the vows...for nearly all marriages, they say "forsaking all others"...which means placing your marriage and your relationship with your spouse as the highest priority relationship, and ending/preventing any relationships that surmount or could "overpower" your relationship with your spouse. There always is the OPTION to request different vows...and to found a marriage on different principles and expectations from the outset. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is clearly understood and agreed upon by both parties, up front, and prior to the marriage. Its when one party unilaterally changes the vows, doesn't intend to uphold those vows, or enters the marriage with different expectations THAT THE OTHER SPOUSE DIDN'T AGREE to that you run into the major crisis issues. Your view on marriage may well work for you, Guy. As long as your prospective spouse agrees to it up front, and is on board with your views and communication style, that's fine. But entering with different expectations or views not agreed upon spells disaster.
Author guy.lepage Posted April 1, 2008 Author Posted April 1, 2008 I'd like to make a (somewhat sloppy) analogy here. After the 9/11 attacks, the US government's reaction was to increase security measures all over the place. Looking at the problem from an external stand point, the attacks on the US were clearly a symptom rather than the problem itself. I think a lot of LS members were hurt by infidelity and I don't mean to minimize your pain. Long term, I just don't think that "increased security" over a relationship is the right solution. That approach used to work in the past because of a different social context. In this day and age, I think people need to manage their expectations accordingly because the context has changed so much in the past few decades. Don't take me wrong, I'm after the same ideals as all of you are. However when I look at a model that fails in more than half of the cases and when I look at the proportion of married people who are either unhappy or dishonest, I have to admit to myself that the model is too restrictive for this culture, this generation. Like everything else, things will go back the other way at some point but I'll be long ways gone by then.
Owl Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Your analogy doesn't fit. The dynamics between terrorist attacks and a successful marriage don't match. Again, I challenge you. You feel the model of boundaries doesn't fit. Yet you don't offer any evidence that fewer boundaries, and close opposite sex friendships improve the odds of a successful marriage. I can cite examples from my own personal experience, as well as long time posting on this and other forums, along with a good amount of research on relationships to support my views...I'm interested in seeing the data supporting your views. Perhaps, as I've suggested...its the fact that many people enter marriage with your views to begin with that leads to that 50% failure rate that you suggest? I know that my views were closer to yours when I first married, as were my wife's. We adopted our newer views after long term experience and suffering through difficult times in our own marriage and watching others do the same.
Owl Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 I'd like to add...the "this day and age" concept...meaning that the previous generations methods and thought processes don't apply "nowadays"...can clearly be seen as a basis for argument back to the ancient Greeks at a minimum. Your viewpoint on the failings of existing society due to its inherent flaws hardly unique. The real trick is to find a way to PROVE your theories...and then convince others to implement that change based on your proof of concept.
Owl Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Guy, some additional thought. I think you see this as some kind of "rule" imposed on you by your spouse. Perhaps you feel that this is a "rule" that I've insisted my wife follow. And not something that I practice as well, perhaps. But neither of these are true assumptions. Its something that we BOTH have opted to do. Instead of seeing this as a rule that I expect her to live by, view it as a guideline that I choose to follow on my side of the marriage. She doesn't "force" me to do any of this...its something I do voluntarily to protect my marriage. And its something that she TOO has opted to do, for the same reasons. No one is being "forced"...its a choice they make to protect their relationship with their spouse. Its not a police state...its not a unilateral thing. Both sides of the marriage opt into this on their own...if one or the other refuses to participate, that is their choice. The outcome of that is nearly always a ruined marriage...but that's an outcome of their choice. I don't force my wife to uphold this boundary. I choose to uphold MY OWN boundaries...as she has chosen to do with hers. Does this clear it up any for you?
carhill Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 I don't force my wife to uphold this boundary. I choose to uphold MY OWN boundaries...as she has chosen to do with hers. OP, note this. Very important. As long as you, your female friend and your S/O's/spouses are on the same page, such friendships are healthy. If any disagree, then you either compromise or take unilateral action. The important thing is everything (the relationships) being out in the open for viewing and discussion. If you are having issues with your GF, getting a female perspective can be helpful, again as long as the boundaries are kept. I don't recall you mentioning the health of her marriage, but, if healthy, there should be no issues IMO, again, as long as everyone is on the same page. If your GF doesn't approve of the friendship, that issue is between you and she and you'll have to decide how to resolve it. Think of it this way: If you told her everything honestly today, right now, and she got angry and left you, how would that affect you? If she accepted it and wanted to participate , how would that affect you? The best thing our psychologist has done for me is to clarify my perspective. It doesn't mean the work will fix our marriage; it means I can now see clearly who I am and where my boundaries are and what perspective I bring to it. Clarity. It really is a beautiful thing
Ladyjane14 Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 ....those of us who have been through the pain of infidelity can attest that a SUCCESSFUL marriage and close interpersonal frienships with members of the opposite sex are mutually exclusive. Yep. And it's not just because we recognize the temptation to mess up our marriages by prioritizing opposite-sex friendships. It's also because we understand that the energy we would utilize for such a friendship is taken directly from our spouse's plate. Often our own spouses are starved within the marriage for this energy. Close friendships speak to some of our most basic emotional needs. ENs like conversation and admiration are important to keeping the marriage healthy. When you give them to someone else, particularly in instances when your own spouse is under-supported in these areas... it's not just a jealousy issue on the part of your spouse. It's YOU, undermining the marriage and making poor choices.
carhill Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 I'm glad my parents didn't have your view of the world.
angie2443 Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 If you are having issues with your GF, getting a female perspective can be helpful, again as long as the boundaries are kept. I don't recall you mentioning the health of her marriage, but, if healthy, there should be no issues IMO, again, as long as everyone is on the same page. If your GF doesn't approve of the friendship, that issue is between you and she and you'll have to decide how to resolve it. Think of it this way: If you told her everything honestly today, right now, and she got angry and left you, how would that affect you? If she accepted it and wanted to participate , how would that affect you? I completely disagree with this. If you are a man having issues with your wife/girlfriend, get your wife's/girlfriend's perspective on it. Same thing goes for a woman having issues with her partner. No one knows your partner more than your partner does. If you are looking for a woman's perspective on your wife or girlfriend (or a man's perspective on your husband/boyfriend), then why not just talk to your partner? Do their ideas or opinions count less than that of the opposite sex friend?
carhill Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 Your assertion presupposes that the OP is not talking to his SO about their issues. "Counting" is assigned by the person hearing the opinions, just like in all facets of life. I'm currently assigning significant value to the guidance of our psychologist regarding our relationship. I also listen to the positive and negative input of friends. Some female ones have been amazingly helpful in helping me understand the feminine perspective without the emotional baggage of the R. I done the same for my female friends in the past. Are you afraid of opposite sex friends? Why? I hear fear. Suspicion derives from fear.
Owl Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 Are you afraid of opposite sex friends? Why? I hear fear. Suspicion derives from fear. Have you read any of what I posted up to this point? Her post makes perfect sense. Better to COMMUNICATE with your spouse or SO, than to run the risk of sharing intimate conversation with an opposite sex friend.
Milan721 Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 These posts have been truly enlightening, especially this debate between Owl and Guy. There's definitely validity to both arguments, however, as some have already posted, it all depends on what you AND your SO agree to. Although it seems like a lot of what Guy says about relationships in "this day and age" might make sense, the only true fault I see is that it doesn't seem to matter to him whether or not his GF knew (or agreed to) his point of view from the get-go. I may have missed something, but it seems like what OP does in his own time is clearly none of her business - end of story. OP also mentioned something to the effect of as long as you keep your wife happy, there's nothing wrong with having flirtatious relationships with the opposite sex. I have yet to know of anyone who is happy while their SO is wining and dining someone else. Besides, who on earth has that kind of energy these days? Between a career, possibly kids and keeping more than one woman entertained and happy - something's gotta give.
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