Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 When my wife hugs and kisses my best friend goodnight, and I his wife, that's appropriate affection. We are very close and share many business and personal intimacies. It's not sexual. That's the difference. If you want an education in kissing, go to the FSU. I was kissing men before I left there I have no issues with kissing my female friends in a non-sexual manner. Most people in English Canada do though.
carhill Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 OK, so now that the lips are out of the way, let's get everyone on the same page Odd about Canada though; most of our Keith Urban friends from the Toronto and London areas were quite openly affectionate. We were just there in December. Hmmm...
BetrayedMM Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Yeah, for that matter it's common to see men holding hands in public in middle eastern countries where homosexuality carries a death penalty. Obviously, something that screams romance here doesn't mean anything more than friendship there. Cultural differences can be an interesting subject. I only brought it up because some things being discussed here might indicate different things depending on culture.
smartgirl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I've been with my GF for a while but I'm not married. A man and a woman sharing dinner and going out until the last call will always raise suspicions. My GF knows about her but I usually skip a few details. As for her, I don't know what she tells her husband and I've never really asked. It's so difficult to maintain a friendship with someone of the opposite sex these days. Friendship is one thing. When the get-togethers are in the evening, drinking is involved and the nature of the get-togethers is being kept from SOs in whole or in part, that isn't really just friendship is it? You know that and you are trying to convince yourself it is more innocent than it is. You can have frienships with women, but there have to be different rules than friendships with men. But I would say that in every case I personally know, when the friendship is played out in the kind of scenario you are describing it becomes an emotional affair and then a physical affair.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 OK, so now that the lips are out of the way, let's get everyone on the same page Odd about Canada though; most of our Keith Urban friends from the Toronto and London areas were quite openly affectionate. We were just there in December. Hmmm... They are huggy and friendly alright - but you're not supposed to kiss!
whichwayisup Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Odd about Canada though We rub elbows and noses?
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 Friendship is one thing. When the get-togethers are in the evening, drinking is involved and the nature of the get-togethers is being kept from SOs in whole or in part, that isn't really just friendship is it? You know that and you are trying to convince yourself it is more innocent than it is. You can have frienships with women, but there have to be different rules than friendships with men. But I would say that in every case I personally know, when the friendship is played out in the kind of scenario you are describing it becomes an emotional affair and then a physical affair. Thanks for your post. Your perception is exactly what most people would think and that's why I shared my story initially. I'm attracted to a number of women but it doesn't mean I'm going to jump on all of them... A friendship is a friendship. I personally don't believe in special rules just because she's a woman. Some people can flirt and leave it at that. Others can't. I think this situation enters the same kind of categorization.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 We rub elbows and noses? I think Quebec is the only region in North America where it is common for friends to kiss on the cheeks. This habit would come from (surprise) the French I guess.
whichwayisup Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I think Quebec is the only region in North America where it is common for friends to kiss on the cheeks. This habit would come from (surprise) the French I guess Well, in Toronto many do the kiss on the cheek thing. Probably because T.O is so multicultural. I grew up in a household where kissing and hugging family friends, aunts/uncles was considered normal, though that has nothing to do with my City being multicultural..
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 Well, in Toronto many do the kiss on the cheek thing. Probably because T.O is so multicultural. I grew up in a household where kissing and hugging family friends, aunts/uncles was considered normal, though that has nothing to do with my City being multicultural.. Really? I have many many friends in TO who I visit regularly. The ones with a British background definitely do NOT kiss on the cheeks...
Owl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I'm not telling my GF everything as I've never been the 1+1=1 type of person. She has her life and I have mine. She could do whatever she wants when I'm not around as long as that does not involve physical intimacy with another man - and I apply the same principle to me. Was this made crystal clear to your girlfriend up front? Did she agree to that type of relationship with you? Does she truly know and realize that this is the kind of relationship that you've envisioned, or are her expectations different from yours? If hers ARE different, what have you done to explain/clarify, to ensure that there would be no heartbreak on her part if you got involved with someone else? And the limit to "physical intimacy" is a rather naive one...because emotional intimacy is what LEADS to physical intimacy. The vast majority of affairs start out as emotional relationships that escalate into emotional affairs and then into physical ones. If you downplay the danger of emotional intimacy with a member of the opposite sex when you're already in a relationship, you're already setting the stage for an affair of any kind. That's why boundaries should exist...not just around physical intimacy, but emotional as well.
BetrayedMM Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 At what point do you feel a friendship becomes an affair? I ask this because you don't feel that threshold has been crossed yet, so I'm wondering how you'll know if and when that happens?
carhill Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 So if my wife is bisexual and has a close girlfriend, where is the boundary? If she's straight? I see it this way. Men are shytey to share emotions with. I can't do that with my male friends. Women are much better. I share with them like my wife shares with her girlfriends. EOS. I'm sick and tired of effing societies conventions limiting people's freedoms. To that extent, I support the OP. Be honest and be true to yourself. Ef society.
Phateless Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 (edited) guy.lepage - i trust you. it sounds like you have your head on straight about this. here's where it gets tricky... i think you do kinda like her at least a little bit, otherwise, you wouldn't be confused about whether or not you'd kiss her. if you were not at all interested you would have answered "no" right away. that does not mean it's impossible for the platonic thing to work. i have female friends where there's mutual attraction but nothing happens because, well... it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. some of the best friendships are sexually charged, and that's what makes the connection so great. That doesn't mean that anything would ever happen... Heck, the salsa and swing scene is a prime example. Everyone is friends with everyone, we're all comfortable, we all dance so we're used to touching and cuddling each other. To the outside observer, nobody has a damn CLUE who's with who! In fact, even a lot of the regulars have no freaking idea. My point? We're all adults and comfortable with that. It's nice to have that level of closeness in a friendship and not worry about it meaning anything more. My buddy's gf will give me a giant hug and a kiss on the cheek and he'll smile and I can see in his face that he knows it's not like that. I think if you honestly want your relationship to work and are not interested in pursuing this other woman, you should introduce her to your GF. Have her over for dinner. At the very least, it will make things a lot clearer in your head. Edited March 31, 2008 by Phateless
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 Was this made crystal clear to your girlfriend up front? Did she agree to that type of relationship with you? Does she truly know and realize that this is the kind of relationship that you've envisioned, or are her expectations different from yours? If hers ARE different, what have you done to explain/clarify, to ensure that there would be no heartbreak on her part if you got involved with someone else? And the limit to "physical intimacy" is a rather naive one...because emotional intimacy is what LEADS to physical intimacy. The vast majority of affairs start out as emotional relationships that escalate into emotional affairs and then into physical ones. If you downplay the danger of emotional intimacy with a member of the opposite sex when you're already in a relationship, you're already setting the stage for an affair of any kind. That's why boundaries should exist...not just around physical intimacy, but emotional as well. Well my GF and I are almost through and it has nothing to do with this thread. And my short answer to whether she is aware of this or not, is that this is simply none of her business. I have my friends, she has hers. Some are common friends but not all of them have to be. I think having to tell everything to your partner is somewhat unhealthy but that is just my own opinion.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 At what point do you feel a friendship becomes an affair? I ask this because you don't feel that threshold has been crossed yet, so I'm wondering how you'll know if and when that happens? I guess when I feel I have a crush on that person, or if I find myself thinking about that person more often than I should. AND the interest must be in the open and acknowledged by the other person.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 some of the best friendships are sexually charged, and that's what makes the connection so great. That doesn't mean that anything would ever happen... Thanks! I like what you said here.
Owl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Well my GF and I are almost through and it has nothing to do with this thread. And my short answer to whether she is aware of this or not, is that this is simply none of her business. I have my friends, she has hers. Some are common friends but not all of them have to be. I think having to tell everything to your partner is somewhat unhealthy but that is just my own opinion. So you're set on getting what you want, when you want, and her feelings and consequences be damned. Yes...that last bit of info makes it clear to me that this IS an emotional affair. Because you place higher importance on this relationship than you do the one with your girlfriend. I believe that answers your question from your original post. I also don't see where there's anything left to discuss, is there? You've made up your mind, and the case appears closed to me.
carhill Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 OP, take what Owl just quoted and share that with your female friend. Ask her for her input/opinion. Listen to her. Women have emotional intelligence that most men can't fathom. Trust it. Sorry about my prior rant. The neighbor's goats were eating my landscaping and I was p!ssed off
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 So you're set on getting what you want, when you want, and her feelings and consequences be damned. Yes...that last bit of info makes it clear to me that this IS an emotional affair. Because you place higher importance on this relationship than you do the one with your girlfriend. I believe that answers your question from your original post. I also don't see where there's anything left to discuss, is there? You've made up your mind, and the case appears closed to me. I think we were having a nice moderate discussion before you got involved. I was just trying to express how people function by various relationship models, not just one. Sometimes I'll call up a guy friend of mine and vent about my GF. Of course, I don't tell her about this. Did I cheat on her? Is she less important because I did something so terrible behind her back? I don't think so. I don't believe in a model where one is forced to share everything. That is simply my opinion.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 OP, take what Owl just quoted and share that with your female friend. Ask her for her input/opinion. Listen to her. Women have emotional intelligence that most men can't fathom. Trust it. Sorry about my prior rant. The neighbor's goats were eating my landscaping and I was p!ssed off Hey, I do not doubt women's emotional intelligence - nor do I doubt their sensitivity. I just think some things are better left unsaid. Here's another example - in my several years with my GF, yes I have fantasized about other women. Would I tell her? No, because it's pointless and it would hurt her unnecessarily. I see some of my friends who are in relationships where they tell each other everything. From my perspective, that leads to co-dependency and all of the various problems that come with it. I like to have my own breathing space and I do the same to my partner.
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 OP, take what Owl just quoted and share that with your female friend. Ask her for her input/opinion. Listen to her. Women have emotional intelligence that most men can't fathom. Trust it. Sorry about my prior rant. The neighbor's goats were eating my landscaping and I was p!ssed off BTW I'm just about sure that she hasn't told the entire truth to her H for the same reasons I haven't told everything to my GF. However, our conversations remain clearly in "friend" territory.
Owl Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 I'm not sure that my responses weren't moderate. I'm restating what you've said back to you. I responded to your questioning whether or not this was an affair. You've made it clear that you don't care about the consequences or outcomes of what happens to your GF as a result of any of this. How am I mistaken in anything I've said? Or immoderate? Calling your guyfriend and chatting about your girlfriend IS different than chatting with another woman about the same things. Vastly so. Unless of course, you're bi-sexual...in which case, its NOT different. You're at no risk of becoming emotionally bonded to your guy friend to a point where you risk "falling in love" with him. That risk DOES exist whenever you go through the same actions with a member of the opposite sex...or someone that you could be sexually and emotionally attracted to. What you described is probably the most common precursor to the vast majority of affairs that occur today. It STARTS as "harmless talk"...but because of the emotionally intimate nature of the communication, it very, very often leads to physical intimacy as well. The more you invest into it emotionally, the more you get back. AND...the more you emotionally invest into someone who isn't your GF or spouse...the LESS you'll emotionally invest in your GF or spouse. Case in point...my wife started talking via IM's and such with a man we casually gamed with online. It eventually turned into her becoming more and more emotionally intimate with him...sharing discussion of our marriage, her feelings/dreams/goals...and eventually led to her "falling in love" with him. Had they not been 'caught'...it would have led to a physical affair as well. They were already contemplating on it. Perhaps the reason you're having issues with the relationship you're in were worsened by your beliefs that you state here? You don't share everything. You don't believe the "1+1=1" idea. Well, that would very likely end up in a one-sided relationship...one where you didn't emotionally invest enough to create a sustainable, mutual relationship. It doesn't sound like the basis of a healthy, long-term one at least. Communication inside the relationship is the biggest key...and one that you don't believe in. This isn't an attack...its an observation and response based on your comments here. Thoughts?
Author guy.lepage Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 I understand your perspective, Owl. In fact, your opinion is probably shared by the vast majority of the people who I have seen posting on this board. Based on your thoughts, I guess you don't think close friendship is possible with someone of the opposite sex. Again, your opinion would be shared by many. I personally think that people who get into an EA are already dissatisfied emotionally. People who are emotionally content can have friendships with the opposite sex without the risk of breaking an existing relationship. Not believing in "1+1=1" does NOT mean not investing myself totally in a relationship. There is nothing wrong with the way you think, nor is there anything wrong with mine. You're probably a good fit with women who think like you, and the same applies for me. The same principles apply in politics - and that's why people argue all the time! I'm not trying to convince anyone to apply my method. I'm just saying that people who respond to these forums always go by the same stereotype. And while there is a reason why stereotypes exist, stereotypes definitely aren't always true.
Phateless Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 Thanks! I like what you said here. Welcome. It does sound like you're done with your gf, but you do have a point. It just all depends. There's a difference between not wanting to share every single detail and actively omitting details. You did say yourself that you leave a few things out because she'd get jealous. You don't have to tell her about your friend, but you should. If you're gonna break up with her soon anyway there's not much point.
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