An observation and theory many guys have

[Elemental]

But I think you haven't read the theory or forgot it's parts. These nice guys can approach a representative sample of all women, and get rejected by all, but the opposite happens for the bad guy. He approaches a representative(sometimes they approach him even) sample of women and he does not get rejected all the time.

 

Is the nice guy approaching women he's not attracted to?

 

Men, as a general rule, don't chase women they don't actually want to have sex with, so the whole thing is completely self-limiting.

 

Unless the man is approaching every woman he encounters with exactly the same style and enthusiasm, he doesn't have a representative sample.

[TheFonz]

Is the nice guy approaching women he's not attracted to?

 

Yes they are absolutely. These guys I know are desperate for anything positive from a female and risk rejection and approach anything.

 

Men, as a general rule, don't chase women they don't actually want to have sex with, so the whole thing is completely self-limiting.

 

This is a generallization. Like I said above. whether they want to have sex with the girls in question or not, they're chasing just to see if they can get anything positive.

 

Unless the man is approaching every woman he encounters with exactly the same style and enthusiasm, he doesn't have a representative sample.

 

Wow you don't demand much. But men actually do this quite a bit. I think you're sort of missing understanding what's necessary to see statistically valid trends. I appreciate your imput but honestly I don't think you have much understanding on this topic.

[Elemental]

Yes they are absolutely. These guys I know are desperate for anything positive from a female and risk rejection and approach anything.

 

No, they don't.

 

I know because they rarely approach me. I'm not attractive to them.

 

They're not attractive to me, either, but neither are the bad boys. It's not an either/or proposition, at least not for women.

[TheFonz]

No, they don't.

 

I know because they rarely approach me. I'm not attractive to them.

 

They're not attractive to me, either, but neither are the bad boys. It's not an either/or proposition, at least not for women.

 

Now you know how these guys feel I guess. Well obviously men don't approach all women equally. And some women have it better than other, just as bad boys have it better than hot girls. But maybe you should be more proactive like guys are? Also keep in mind some of the things that will make you more attractive to guys are a little more concrete to understand and understandable to fix, i.e., dieting and exercising, sexy and flattering clothing. It's really hard for a good guy to become a bad guy.

[D-Lish]

I like a guy with a bit of a bad boy personality. But I also think there is a huge difference between a "bad boy" and a "player".

 

I can see a player coming from a mile away- and I won't engage him.

A player has a sleazy air about him, sees women as notches on his bedpost, he doesn't really like them or care to understand them.... his understanding of women is shallow and he cares only to know enough to get them into bed....

 

A Bad boy type is different.

He is charming, funny, overtly confident, he's sexy... in good shape, and unapologetically "male". That's attractive (I'll expand more on why below). Yes... he also loves women and wants to chase them down. The thrill of the chase may be more important than the catch though for the most part. That's probably the downside for women who fall for these guys.

 

It makes sense women are attracted to the naughty element in men. A desire to propagate is rooted deep within our species- we have biological traits that guide us in choosing the right mate. Women have the best chance at propagating if we choose the strongest alpha males, and men have the best chance of propogating if they can attract "many" females.... We see this in nature all the time right?

 

We have just reached a level of socialization that doesn't "love" the male side of that equation... ie: desire to spread the seed. Religious institutions and cultural progress has pushed society to embrace monogamy. That throws confusion into the mix... human beings have feelings that conflict with the instincts that guide our biology.

 

What I am explaining is "scientific chatter and study" that is not new and can be found in biology and sociology textbooks most of us would have read in highschool....

 

But it does explain where that attraction for "bad boys" comes from.

 

I enjoy bad boys... not @ss-h*les. It's the "sleaze factor" that sets the two types apart.

[Elemental]

Now you know how these guys feel I guess. Well obviously men don't approach all women equally. And some women have it better than other, just as bad boys have it better than hot girls. But maybe you should be more proactive like guys are? Also keep in mind some of the things that will make you more attractive to guys are a little more concrete to understand and understandable to fix, i.e., dieting and exercising, sexy and flattering clothing. It's really hard for a good guy to become a bad guy.

 

If I wanted to tart myself up, I would. However, I have no more interest in the nice guys than in the bad boys. See the thread about what men like to get a feel for why.

 

And that's the thing. I understand that failing to tart myself up results in less attention from men. I'm not only okay with that, I welcome that. I don't want the kind of man who wants a woman who puts that much time and money into her looks. I don't want a man whose ego rides on how good-looking his girlfriend is, or who can only get it up for an 8 or better.

 

I'm doing exactly what's required to get what I want, and I am doing that with full understanding and acceptance of the potential consequences, which is why I have some compassion for the nice guys, but very little patience for their complaints.

[D-Lish]

Wow, stated with conviction.

 

But since I am confused about this topic (and interested, hence I keep posting here), I'm far from being the expert. Although I feel like there's more than meets the eye, I don't have the knowledge to disagree with you, especially when you are so sure of your posts and even making absolute declarations like this.

 

So for now I'll take what you said into consideration, see if I can absorb it and believe it. But I'd like to see some of the women on this board that have the bad-boy attraction to chime in, and defend themselves. Since so many women do have this bad-boy attraction, I'd like to believe it's something normal, just part of the equation, or even the currently accepted cultural behavior, and not so many women are actually empty-headed, naive or dysfunctional.

 

I responded Mr. Taco. It's a few posts above this one.

[TheFonz]

I like a guy with a bit of a bad boy personality.

 

OK an admission that the theory is obstensibly true.

 

 

But I also think there is a huge difference between a "bad boy" and a "player".

 

I think they are on in the same. Maybe not all "players" are "bad boys" but all bad boys are players.

 

I can see a player coming from a mile away- and I won't engage him.

A player has a sleazy air about him, sees women as notches on his bedpost, he doesn't really like them or care to understand them.... his understanding of women is shallow and he cares only to know enough to get them into bed....

 

OK but what about nice guys, They're not players? I still don't see the distinction between player and bad boy, but I sort of understand.

 

 

A Bad boy type is different.

He is charming, funny, overtly confident, he's sexy... in good shape, and unapologetically "male". That's attractive (I'll expand more on why below).

 

Hmm, so are players, not seeing the difference other than sematics? But nothing in your description really describes a bad boy as opposed to a good guy other than maybe being "unapologetically 'male'". That could be something a nice guy lacks usually.

 

Yes... he also loves women and wants to chase them down. The thrill of the chase may be more important than the catch though for the most part. That's probably the downside for women who fall for these guys.

 

So he's just in it for the chase? Are you still talking about bad boys or players here. This was your early definition of a player. It seems to be kind of contradictory. Also how do you know upon first meeting he wants a thrill of the chase? Nice guys chase women a lot too.

 

It makes sense women are attracted to the naughty element in men. A desire to propagate is rooted deep within our species- we have biological traits that guide us in choosing the right mate. Women have the best chance at propagating if we choose the strongest alpha males, and men have the best chance of propogating if they can attract "many" females.... We see this in nature all the time right?

 

This sounds like you're saying point blank don't be a nice guy, be a sexual guy and in it for sex primarily. You used a lot of loaded terms in there like "biological traits". Is this biological trait the being a "dark side" guy that the theory mention earlier maybe?

 

We have just reached a level of socialization that doesn't "love" the male side of that equation... ie: desire to spread the seed. Religious institutions and cultural progress has pushed society to embrace monogamy. That throws confusion into the mix... human beings have feelings that conflict with the instincts that guide our biology.

 

So all this should favor the good guy and disfavor the bad guy and player, right? Yet we don't really sees this in actuality.

 

What I am explaining is "scientific chatter and study" that is not new and can be found in biology and sociology textbooks most of us would have read in highschool....

 

OK theory from biology and sociology. Not that they are the best sources of Bad boys or womanizers. Most scientific studies I've read concluded that a person's looks and facial symetry was the only link between attraction that they found.

 

But it does explain where that attraction for "bad boys" comes from.

 

But that explanation as given is really just saying men should be how they naturally are inclined to, i.e., sexual and "chase" different women, and this causes attraction in women.

 

I enjoy bad boys... not @ss-h*les. It's the "sleaze factor" that sets the two types apart.

 

But if sleaziness is the turn off wouldn't good guys have the least sleaziness, then bad boys, then as-holes, which are really just a more extreme form of being a bad boy?

[Nuguy12]

But see it makes no sense to say bad is not attractive to anyone, then go on to say bad boy elicits feelings. Hence the theory that women like bad and sense it quickly almost intutively.

 

You are debating this "bad boy attraction" with women here who are not aware of their own emotional imperatives so they will debate this til the cows come home. Men who have observed women's attraction to 'bad boys' are the source of credibility here , not women.

ThIS debate will go round and round for the same reason what most male-female debates go circular.

Yawn !

[TheFonz]

You are debating this "bad boy attraction" with women here who are not aware of their own emotional imperatives so they will debate this til the cows come home. Men who have observed women's attraction to 'bad boys' are the source of credibility here , not women.

ThIS debate will go round and round for the same reason what most male-female debates go circular.

Yawn !

Well I'm trying to define "bad" boy. Is it someone who really is internally bad and this is what's causing the attraction?

[Elemental]

You are debating this "bad boy attraction" with women here who are not aware of their own emotional imperatives so they will debate this til the cows come home. Men who have observed women's attraction to 'bad boys' are the source of credibility here , not women.

ThIS debate will go round and round for the same reason what most male-female debates go circular.

Yawn !

 

Until you can conclusively prove that all women are attracted to bad boys, you have no case. It's that simple. You can spout theories until the cows come home, but you have no evidence beyond your own experience and those of other men like you. Those are called anecdotes, and do you know what those are worth in real science?

 

That's right. Nothing. But they can be used to sell things, because a lot of people are just about that gullible.

[HeavenScent]

What's a bad boy? I really want to know cos all the men I've been out with are not bad boys.

[TheFonz]

Until you can conclusively prove that all women are attracted to bad boys, you have no case. It's that simple. You can spout theories until the cows come home, but you have no evidence beyond your own experience and those of other men like you. Those are called anecdotes, and do you know what those are worth in real science?

 

That's right. Nothing. But they can be used to sell things, because a lot of people are just about that gullible.

 

Elemental, this is a serious topic. The fact that some percentage at least of women are attracted to bad boys is even admit to by women. And the fact that good guys get less attraction is also openly admitted by both men and women. Your just coming in the thread and denying things that have already been generally conceded. If you believe you are an exception to this theory then fine, except yourself from the thread if yo have no other insight in regard to it.

[TheFonz]

What's a bad boy? I really want to know cos all the men I've been out with are not bad boys.

 

 

OK, I'll accept your denial on its face and assume you are an exception and like good guys. But this doesn't really help anything. Maybe you are not being honest about these guys or you are misnomering them. I was wondering about your username. What does Heaven smell like?

[HeavenScent]

OK, I'll accept your denial on its face and assume you are an exception and like good guys. But this doesn't really help anything. I was wondering about your username. What does Heaven smell like?

 

What denial?

 

I have never been attracted to bad boys. What is there to deny when I have never met one except those I read about here. I don't even understand why some women are attracted to or want bad boys. So shoot me for being an exception.

[DanielMadr]

Why this debate? Simly put, guys just wonder in sheer amazement who on earth could go for captain Jak Sparrow if you have there that other guy Smith???? You see.....I dont even know what his character name is, goddamint and if I was more feminine I would probably got wet down there just thinking of that captain creep.

 

True. Abandoment in childhood. Dont forget the revolt element too. And I think most important - these girls want nothing to do with with responsibility. Pure sexual drive. And of course she can feel like a saint besides some thug and maybe she is cutting hi edge a little.

 

Lets face it gentlemen. Lots of people just dont know what they are doing and girls are famous for their airheadness. Call it sexism or stereotyping but we all know its the reality. Even the good girl who would never date a bad guy, just because he is too immature and she likes guys like her devout father, has these bad azz boys in her erotic fantasies. Nothing to be ashamed of. I dont think of mother Theresa in my erotic fantasies.

 

There is lot of advice how to adopt the bad boy attitude. I believe when you are in core the responsible, guy with strong morals. Well, you will spice up your life, maybe triple your dating but you wont never be a competition for a real bad guy. Because when you are responsible you have to be careful - you think first - and it gives you disadvantage.

 

Every guy should question first what makes him the rsponsible one. Is it that need for moomys approval? That he wants no risk life - get married soon, have some kids, decent work and die in quiet? And isnt he surpressing his needs for adventure, bedding various girls only for the fun of it?

 

For me, I know I want attractive, pleasant, decent girl to go about in life. I wont start dating single mommas beated by some thug of a husband only to feed my responsible side. And I know this. If my little sister or my daughter comes home with some guy with that bad vibe, I will read him his horoscope so well, he will please my daughter to leave him alone. Anything else, well, insahallah. I certainly wont start some movement against girls stupidity - I dont care about other people lifes that much - thats how bad I am:cool: and I know it solves nothing. And yes when I see another girl being beaten by some azzhole, I will kick his azz bad.

 

Some "guys" cure their inferiority complexes by beating girls , I cure my inferiority complexes by beating them.

 

Nice thread. good work Fonz. Some development on Confident Fighter vs Confident Lover aka Why Nature Made Us That Way theory?

Edited April 1, 2008 by DanielMadr

[Elemental]

What's a bad boy? I really want to know cos all the men I've been out with are not bad boys.

 

Here I was, silly me, thinking that bad boy meant criminal, abuser, addict or something like that, but being here has got me thinking.

 

What kind of person would let someone apologize their way out of cheating?

 

What kind of person needs to be trained how to treat someone else? What's the alternative, doing whatever they can get away with just because they can get away with it?

 

What kind of person is only kind when there's something in it for them?

 

Really?

 

Accepting an apology for a planned, deliberate trespass is either emotional suicide or a truly ugly kind of power trip. Read SS's archives to understand how that one works, but the idea is that if she cheats, he dumps her, and she comes crying back, he owns her.

 

We don't train people how to treat us, any more than other people train us. We can let them, of course, but then we're no better than a kite in the wind. As far as the person who allows us to train them is concerned, they're essentially handing responsibility for their behavior over to us, and that's not responsibility anyone needs.

 

Being nice to people in order to create a standing debt you can call in at any time isn't nice. It's being a user.

 

I would never dream of dating a man who would forgive me for cheating if I begged and apologized enough. I can't even imagine that. I can't imagine dating a man whose behavior was mostly made up of reactions to other people's behavior, who was unable to decide out of some sense of integrity what to do when things didn't go his way. I can't imagine dating a man who kept an inner checklist of the good things he did, just to make sure others paid up. All of these traits combined? I wouldn't be able to trust him with a burnt-out match.

 

Have I had men suck up to me in order to get me into bed? Sure. I don't call them nice guys, though, I call them jerks and I don't sleep with them. I've also had married men flatly proposition me, I've been "negged" a few times, and I've had men try to win me by bragging about how tough or rich they are. I call them jerks and I don't sleep with them, either.

 

@Fonz: why are you so interested in women who like jerks? Why do you care what they think or what they want, unless you want them? And if so, why? Ever actually thought about that?

[TheFonz]

There is lot of advice how to adopt the bad boy attitude. I believe when you are in core the responsible, guy with strong morals. Well, you will spice up your life, maybe triple your dating but you wont never be a competition for a real bad guy. Because when you are responsible you have to be careful - you think first - and it gives you disadvantage.

 

Every guy should question first what makes him the rsponsible one. Is it that need for moomys approval? That he wants no risk life - get married soon, have some kids, decent work and die in quiet? And isnt he surpressing his needs for adventure, bedding various girls only for the fun of it?

 

Yeah this some insight to the topic. I guess another way of lookin at it is as follows. In pop culture, and elsewhere too, the good guy is the hero, the most admired, and he always gets the girl in the end while the bad guy is the villan, no one likes, and is rebuffed by the girl. But in real life and out in the "street" the good guy is the chump who's rebuffed by the girls and they watch the bad guy get attraction and take the woman home. how can this be unless attraction is inverted from what you'd expect and is not the dark side that causes attraction?

[TheFonz]

Have I had men suck up to me in order to get me into bed? Sure. I don't call them nice guys, though, I call them jerks and I don't sleep with them. I've also had married men flatly proposition me, I've been "negged" a few times, and I've had men try to win me by bragging about how tough or rich they are. I call them jerks and I don't sleep with them, either.

 

As interesting as the parts were that I didn't quote are, you were going off on a tangent. But here you basically totally contradicted yourself when you earlier tried to "disprove" that nice guys approach a representative sample of women. Now you claim you get approached by various types of guys. On top of that yo dismiss them all. I can't have discussion with you. It's like I'm talking to someone with multiple personalities.

 

@Fonz: why are you so interested in women who like jerks? Why do you care what they think or what they want, unless you want them? And if so, why? Ever actually thought about that?

 

Uh maybe because the theory is "jerks" or bad causes attraction?

[DanielMadr]

Yeah this some insight to the topic. I guess another way of lookin at it is as follows. In pop culture, and elsewhere too, the good guy is the hero, the most admired, and he always gets the girl in the end while the bad guy is the villan, no one likes, and is rebuffed by the girl. But in real life and out in the "street" the good guy is the chump who's rebuffed by the girls and they watch the bad guy get attraction and take the woman home. how can this be unless attraction is inverted from what you'd expect and is not the dark side that causes attraction?

 

Im not entirely sure thats right. Of course we see guys with bad morals earning big money and bedding playmates even on pop culture tv like MTV. But on the other hand thats what world is and always was - The greatest good guys giving their life for the country and Queen.

 

There are two traps in this bad boy theory.

 

1. When you dump a girl (and you dont have to be bad to do that) you are automatically a Jerk. So most of Jerks you hear of (especially on LS) are in reality just normal guys - no villains

 

2. I think good guys would be more successful in a moment they get rid of their fears. Because I think they are in reality just Pussies calling any Dick an Azzhole the same way girls do when a Dick, dumps them.

[Elemental]

As interesting as the parts were that I didn't quote are, you were going off on a tangent. But here you basically totally contradicted yourself when you earlier tried to "disprove" that nice guys approach a representative sample of women. Now you claim you get approached by various types of guys. On top of that yo dismiss them all. I can't have discussion with you. It's like I'm talking to someone with multiple personalities.

 

I didn't realize that I was lumping all of these nice guys in with the jerks. Maybe they do like me after all.

 

The thing is, I don't see being a suck-up as being nice. I just see it as being a suck-up, and yes, I dismiss them. I see them as jerks. I don't even friendzone them. It's not worth the headache to have a so-called friend who's primary aim is to get into my pants.

 

Uh maybe because the theory is "jerks" or bad causes attraction?

 

Real science to back this, please? You can't even test this, certainly not on a message board, and you're not very interested in what actual scientists have to say.

 

You're obsessed with your jerk thing, though, to the point where anything said by a woman who doesn't like jerks is irrelevant to you. You don't want women who don't like jerks. You're not interested in them in any way, shape, or form. You want women who want jerks, and you want to pump them for information so you can figure out how to push those buttons.

 

Kind of stunning, really. What's the appeal anyway? I guess that's the thing. I just don't get it.

[DanielMadr]

I didn't realize that I was lumping all of these nice guys in with the jerks. Maybe they do like me after all.

 

The thing is, I don't see being a suck-up as being nice. I just see it as being a suck-up, and yes, I dismiss them. I see them as jerks. I don't even friendzone them. It's not worth the headache to have a so-called friend who's primary aim is to get into my pants.

 

 

 

Real science to back this, please? You can't even test this, certainly not on a message board, and you're not very interested in what actual scientists have to say.

 

You're obsessed with your jerk thing, though, to the point where anything said by a woman who doesn't like jerks is irrelevant to you. You don't want women who don't like jerks. You're not interested in them in any way, shape, or form. You want women who want jerks, and you want to pump them for information so you can figure out how to push those buttons.

 

Kind of stunning, really. What's the appeal anyway? I guess that's the thing. I just don't get it.

 

I dont think fonz is pushing his personal agenda here. He just asks relevant questions. I dont think you need some scientific proofs for even starting a debate, especially when its so common sense theme.

 

Why mother nature makes it that way....the way when a Man with certain risky character is more compelling than a a Man with all the norisk ingredients???? Thats what the debate is about.

 

 

And Elemental I sense deep frustration on your mind. I repeat again, there is a possibility that your subconsiousness is sabotaging and torturing you. Have you questioned these possibilities? Maybe your deep inner you battles with that good daughter in you?

[Elemental]

I dont think fonz is pushing his personal agenda here. He just asks relevant questions. I dont think you need some scientific proofs for even starting a debate, especially when its so common sense theme.

 

Why mother nature makes it that way....the way when a Man with certain risky character is more compelling than a a Man with all the norisk ingredients???? Thats what the debate is about.

 

 

And Elemental I sense deep frustration on your mind. I repeat again, there is a possibility that your subconsiousness is sabotaging and torturing you. Have you questioned these possibilities? Maybe your deep inner you battles with that good daughter in you?

 

I've known women who have dated real bad boys, not hung out with these women but just known them, and they weren't normal. A normal woman doesn't tolerate violence or cheating. A normal woman doesn't date men who drink too much or end up in jail from time to time. It's not normal. We know this. We've known it for years. We even know how it happens, the psychological mechanisms behind it, and it has nothing to do with bad boys being universally attractive to women. They're not, and never have been.

 

So why is this even an issue? Why are people generalizing from this sadly damaged subset to women as a whole? How does this hold up to even a second of scrutiny, much less become accepted as common sense? That's the piece I don't get.

 

As far as the good daughter crack goes, spare me your concern! My parents were great. They deserved the care they got, and I didn't take on anything I didn't understand or couldn't accept. It was a hard thing, but a good thing. Anyway, what's wrong with being good? What's wrong with taking care of those you love?

 

It's just one heck of a shock to drop out for a bit, and then come back to a large, vocal, almost organized group of men who expect me to cream my panties when they act like d1cks and then wail forlornly when I don't even make eye contact with them, much less talk to them.

[DanielMadr]

I've known women who have dated real bad boys, not hung out with these women but just known them, and they weren't normal. A normal woman doesn't tolerate violence or cheating. A normal woman doesn't date men who drink too much or end up in jail from time to time. It's not normal. We know this. We've known it for years. We even know how it happens, the psychological mechanisms behind it, and it has nothing to do with bad boys being universally attractive to women. They're not, and never have been.

 

So why is this even an issue? Why are people generalizing from this sadly damaged subset to women as a whole? How does this hold up to even a second of scrutiny, much less become accepted as common sense? That's the piece I don't get.

 

As far as the good daughter crack goes, spare me your concern! My parents were great. They deserved the care they got, and I didn't take on anything I didn't understand or couldn't accept. It was a hard thing, but a good thing. Anyway, what's wrong with being good? What's wrong with taking care of those you love?

 

It's just one heck of a shock to drop out for a bit, and then come back to a large, vocal, almost organized group of men who expect me to cream my panties when they act like d1cks and then wail forlornly when I don't even make eye contact with them, much less talk to them.

 

Im sorry. I didnt want to patronize you Wrong is when a person doesnt take care of her life first or most. OK I drop it. Take care.

 

As for te rest:

 

There are certain levels of attitude a guy can have. From Neat Guy To Total D1ck. From my personal experience far more from neat guy you are the more women you attract. Your personal loathing of bad boys or boys who express some sexual side towards you, cant move statistics.

[HeavenScent]

Here I was, silly me, thinking that bad boy meant criminal, abuser, addict or something like that, but being here has got me thinking.

 

Duh. Those are not bad boys.. those are idiotic bad boys

 

Nope. If I met someone who cheated on me or anything along the lines of "bad boy", it's over. Simple as that. No matter how much I love him, it'll be over cos I deserve better and if that means I may not meet anyone "better", so be it.