TymeFlyes Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 I’ve been a fly on the wall here at LS for several weeks now, it’s been great realizing how many are going through the same things. It’s time for me to share my story: Last September, I noticed my wife and I were experiencing a lull in our marriage of 9 years. We had dated for 3 years prior to marriage. We both worked and I felt that we just got too busy raising our three children (ages 4,6, and 8), managing our careers and handling childcare issues, and the marriage was not get the attention that it needed. However, I felt that this was temporary and felt things would be much better in a few years as our children got older and we would have more ‘us’ time. As the months moved on, I noticed my wife was getting more attached to children, allowing them to sleep in bed with us, and becoming more emotionally detached to me. She would not respond to my affection, and began calling me during the day less frequently and would not answer my calls, or return them in a timely manner. I had asked her several times if there was somebody else and if she was having an affair or EA, and she insisted that there was nothing going on. In fact she would get angry that I would bring it up and swore on our kids and our marriage that there was no OP. In December, I saw an email that my wife had replied to a neighbor who inquired if we were attending a party on the weekend – she stated “I don’t know -- we’ve been having problems for about a year now, and at this point I think our marriage irreparable.” I was completely shocked and felt quite differently about our relationship, so I suggested that we get into marriage counseling. During MC, my wife said she had ‘no issues’ and she just wanted to be happy. Fast forward a month and a few weeks later -- I caught my wife sending an email to a coworker stating ‘I can’t stop thinking about us, I miss you, I love you… blah, blah, blah.’ The next day, we got into an argument, and I confronted her about the email and she said there was nothing going on between them. She later stated that they were just friends and they had been going to lunch on a weekly basis and started they started kissing each other. She said they had only kissed about three times. She had been at this job for about 7 months and often complained to me about her job, and mentioned several people at work but never mentioned his name once in the past. He is a MM with a 14 year-old son and told my wife his marriage was not great and his wife was suicidal. At MC the focus and dynamic began to change and she told the counselor that this other relationship was very important to her, and they had both expressed their love for each other and stated they wanted to be life partners. I questioned how she could kiss someone three times and want to be a life partner, and she then said they ‘kissed more like 30 times.’ At this point I just assume that their relationship went much further, and beyond the EA that she claims. In a following MC session, she said that she no longer loved me, and wanted a divorce, because if she stayed it the marriage it would only be for the kids and she would never be happy. I started reading books about infidelity and affairs and wanted to learn more about the relationship with her MM, and what I may have to done to cause her to stray. She showed little interest in reading books and working on our marriage, and did nothing but play games on the computer every night and was very reluctant to share any information about the infidelity with me. She suddenly claimed that she did not like our marriage counselor and wanted to quit MC. We went to about 7 sessions together, 5 of them before the discovery of infidelity. After confronting her about email she sent to him, she no longer wanted to communicate with me about our relationship, and no longer wanted to intimate with me. We were still having sex about once a week or so up to the point of discovery. This my first marriage and my wife’s second marriage; we got married when we both 30 and started having kids a year later. She originally got married at 21 and divorced her first husband after 5 years, because she said they grew apart, and she no longer loved him. I have been on the emotional roller coaster for a few months, but thankfully, I got on an anti-depressant from my doctor, and also got into IC for myself. I really wanted to do everything to save my marriage for the sake of my kids, but I still don’t believe my wife wants to reconcile at this point. She claims that she is NC with the MM, however, I did catch a reply to a text message that she had sent him about three weeks ago.
Gunny376 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 "Is it raining? Or? Are you peeing on my leg?" Me? Myself? I? I wouldn't put up with this sort of disrepect! She wouldn't be "going" She'd BE GONE!
Nomad1 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 1) It's over. Save yourself further agony. Tell her you are happy to go ahead with the break up and file immediately. 2) You have kids with her, so try to remain civil and get her to agree to at least 50% parenting and equal split of assets. 3) Get checked for STDs! Don't beat yourself up about it. It sounds like she has self-esteem and attachment issues. There are lots of uncomplicated fish in the sea. You will see. Take care Nomad1
Author TymeFlyes Posted March 30, 2008 Author Posted March 30, 2008 Gunny/Nomad1, I agree with you both about moving on -- it has been tough for me to realize that she has already moved on, but is trying not to hurt me or give me false hope, that is why she is avoiding talking about our future. I want to be able to look into my kids' eyes someday and tell them that I had tried everything to save the marriage. I think what has kept me from filing is the fact that a neighbor told me she said "What if I am making the wrong decision?" I felt that we were building a great future together and was not aware of her feelings about our marriage. She had never been open and honest about them. In September, we had a great trip without the kids to North Carolina, where we purchased a piece of land and discussed building a second home for retirement someday. I thought we were on the same page in life. Over the last few months she had said the following in our conversations that usually turn to destructive arguements: Our marriage was having problems for about a year and it’s irreparable.I love you but I’m not in love with youI fell out of love with you four years ago (We have a son that just turned 4!)I don’t know if I could ever love you again.If I stay in the marriage, I would only be staying for the kids -- and I would never be happy.I’d rather be with nobody than be with you.I asked if we did not have kids, would she have divorced me by now? She replied with “yes – absolutely”I feel we are on different pathsNomad1, the reason I had not filed for divorce or consulted an attorney as of yet is that set a timeline. I wrote a letter to her asking her to get into IC, and asked her to find a MC of her choice for both of us, and basically laid down a timeline of 90 days (June 1) for completing several sessions of both, otherwise I will separate myself from her and move on with my life. I did not want to doing anything too quickly, before we could reduce some of the emotional impact and perhaps improve our relationship, even if just for co-parenting reasons. As far as her issues, you're right. I believe she does have self-esteem and commitment problems. Now that I put the pieces together, I think her first relationship ended in a similar fashion -- an affair with someone at work (he was not married, but lived with a woman that he had a child with) and with the support of the OM, she separated and filed for divorce, then eventually ended that relationship with the OM sometime after dating me. What I would consider to be an "exit affair". I have been trying to do some of the 180's listed in LadyJane's posting to a previous thread. I've been going to the gym everyday and lost 17 lbs gained some muscle and feel very good about looking lean and cut! I am going out more with friends doing things to make me feel better. I asked my W if we should consider ourselves "separated" (even though we are still living in the same house) and if I could start dating other people. She asked me if that's what I wanted, and I had to bite my tongue from saying "no that's what *YOU* wanted." So any thoughts on me going on a date with somebody from work while still living with the W in same house? It's been about two and a half months since I discovered her affair/EA.
PWSX3 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 So any thoughts on me going on a date with somebody from work while still living with the W in same house? It's been about two and a half months since I discovered her affair/EA. I might have different thoughts on this then most so I'll give you mine. You are still married & if you start dating then I feel that is not being any better then she is, in my book that is still cheating. I wouldn't think adding another relationship into the mix now would be a good thing, just more you would have to think about. Just keep going out with your friends & have fun. I would work on yourself as you are, keep going to the gym, looking good & let your W see what she will be missing. I also feel she got married young & once the hollywood part of the marriage wears off then she is looking for it with someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if you get divorced she will do the same thing with the next guy. Until she realizes what is happening & gets help for it she will keep going down that same path & I really don't know if there is anything you could or can do.
Author TymeFlyes Posted March 30, 2008 Author Posted March 30, 2008 (edited) I might have different thoughts on this then most so I'll give you mine. You are still married & if you start dating then I feel that is not being any better then she is, in my book that is still cheating. PWSX3, I think I was in your camp for awhile, and felt I should take the higher ground. But I now feel differently, and I believe that a divorce would be both a long and painful process for us. She refuses to compromise on anything wants to sit on the fence and string things out -- have her cake and eat it too. This is why I feel that the "Separated" Married Couple option may be a good short-term thing until we can ourselves in a position to get things worked out amicably with the least impact on the kids. Does anyone think such an arrangement is possible, worth exploring, short-term, perhaps if we set some reasonable ground rules? At what point do most feel it is *NOT* cheating (i.e. mutual agreement, living apart separately, after filing for divorce, or after divorce is finalized)? I feel like I am postponing my happiness, while she sleeps well at night knowing she has found a possible soulmate and/or pillar for support. I want to get out there and test my hard earned changes, self-improvement, and other things I am learning about in relationships. I am not looking for a one night stand but building a friendship then maybe perhaps a relationship a bit down the road. Wouldn't having such fun help me move on and get through my healing process? Edited April 13, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Ladyjane14 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 I really wanted to do everything to save my marriage for the sake of my kids.... Okay kiddo. Here's the deal though... your wife doesn't SEE you right now. Her view is clouded by her infatuation for this OM. She's apparently "re-written" the marital history to paint herself as an unhappy victim and you as the source of all her problems. So, all you're gonna get from her until she comes out of this fog she's in... is more "affair babble". You can't reason with unreasonable people. It'll make you nuts to try. What you CAN do though, is start sticking pins in the "affair bubble" she's ensconced herself in. You can utilize a "hit and run" strategy, whereby you introduce a tiny bit of reality, just a blurb, and then 'beat feet' out of the area in order to leave her mulling over just the one thought. Don't bother to engage her in protracted argument. She'll only remember what she wants to anyway. You can't win in a debate of NONSENSE. That said, it's perfectly okay to let her blather on about her feelings, while you nod your head in an understanding way. You want her to view you as someone who's good to talk to. If I were you, I'd read through a copy of Surviving an Affair, and get into a "Plan A" scenario. Present a clear choice between the stability of hearth and home and the chaos of the unknown road. Let her observe YOU as the better choice for a long-term partner. I'd also see an attorney and find out what my options are. Just because you're in "Plan A" doesn't mean you 'roll over and piddle' as JMargel would put it. There's a bit of carrot and a bit of stick to a good "Plan A". You can (and should) soften up enough to present yourself as an approachable, reasonable partner... but you still have an obligation to protect yourself and your children too. You know this business of "it was only a few kisses" is unlikely to be true, don't you? Cheaters don't usually tell the whole story. More often, it comes out in bits and pieces, and only as much as the cheater feels s/he HAS to tell. I think you'd do well to sit down and think about how you really feel about that. She's given you enough reason already to divorce her out-of-hand if that's what you want. You can always put a PI on her ass, bust her for infidelity, and show her what a bad day in court looks like. It's up to you. The thing that most cheaters don't seem to understand is that once they've made their choices... it's the betrayed spouse's turn to make his/hers. I'm not going to tell you that a reconciled marriage can't be wonderful, even after infidelity. It most certainly can. In terms of child-rearing, a two-parent home where both partners are modeling a close and loving relationship is GOOD for kids. It's more secure both financially and psychologically. So, to my way of thinking, it's worth a recovery attempt. But, as Dr. Phil would say... "It's better to BE from a broken home than to LIVE in one". It's hard work, and it's tough on the self-esteem to commit yourself to marital recovery when there's an affair underfoot. You have to look at your partner and REALIZE that there's two people in front of you... the spouse you knew and loved, submerged beneath the WS (wayward spouse) persona. And you go into this NOT knowing which of those two personalities will eventually win out against the other. But... if you can step back a bit, and realize that this is someone else's sickness and not a direct reflection of your value and self-worth, you stand a much better chance of surviving the struggle. When you can step back observe your spouse with a bit of clinical detachment, as nurse to patient, you can slow the hemorrhage of loss from your "love bank", at least for awhile. You can't completely stop the loss of love while your spouse is wayward. Eventually, if it goes on for long enough, you exhaust your love supply, wake up one morning, and could give a sh*t less if you ever lay eyes on your WS again. But you can extend the 'window of opportunity' for saving your marriage quite a bit by learning about affair behaviors and separating your self-esteem from the struggle. Don't walk around with a bullseye on your forehead. She's gonna hiss and spit and try to make this all about YOU. That's the disease. You can't internalize it and still protect your love supply. Anyway, the ball is in your court. I know it might seem hard to believe... but you are more powerful than you know. With a clear head and the right tools, you can run circles around a "fogged-out" WS.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 Does anyone think such an arrangement is possible, worth exploring, short-term, perhaps if we set some reasonable ground rules? If you didn't have three impressionable children that you're 'modeling' a marital relationship for... I'd say, "Sure, no biggie". But if you're the ONLY guy in the room with a clear head, then it's on YOU to be the responsible parent. This kind of separation will only compound your problems. It won't SOLVE any of them.
Author TymeFlyes Posted March 30, 2008 Author Posted March 30, 2008 LadyJane, it's nice to see you reply I have read much of the stuff you had written before. It's good stuff. I had read "Surviving an Affair" and Plan A did *not* work, b/c I could not get any help from my wife to determine the emotional needs that I was failing to meet for her but the OM is providing. I called her boss and told him about the affair and said that I was going to ask her to resign her position. She agreed to resign and when she went into work to do it, her boss told her that as long as she continue to perform her job well, and did not let personal matters interfere, he would love to see her stay. She agreed to stay and told me she needed to honor her committment to him. She only worked there seven months and complained that she hated the job! (What about her commitment to me and our marriage vows?) Since she sees the MM regularly at work, I don't believe true NC is happening, so I am not sure a Plan A would be very effective. Anytime I planned to get close to my wife and discuss the affair, my contributions to the affair, she would move further away. Anyway, her MM is a police officer and works over 60 hours a week, and much of the time that they were spending together was time that he was on the clock! Nice to see our tax dollars at work! I also called the MM, after he sent her a text message and I asked him to stop being a distraction while we continued with marriage counseling. I also told him if he continued contact with my wife, I would inform his wife about the situation. I didn't really plan to call his wife, b/c I think he needs to "man up" and work on his marriage on his own -- besides there may have been some consequences that I was not prepared to deal with at this time. Anyway, he told my wife he was worried that I would contact his wife. As cruel as it may sound, it was nice to see the OM feel a bit nervous. I'm not sure whether that helped or hurt the situation. I thought it may have been time to consider a Plan B... I had asked if she would move out until she could get some clarity on what she wants. She refused to move out because she will *NOT* leave her kids, but said if I wanted to have a separation that *I* could move out. I am not moving out of my house if she wants out of the marriage. I then suggested that we get an apartment that we would both share time in it on a rotating basis but she again refused that option, b/c she feels that I would somehow use that as an excuse for abandonment, and leverage it for child support if the divorce route were to be taken. I do need to consult an attorney to see what my rights may be. I feel she wants everything her way! She refuses to consider the 50/50 shared custody thing b/c she feels it will be too confusing for the kids to live in two homes. She wants the kids to remain living with her in *our* house while I pay child support to her. Financially, we would both suffer in a divorce. Sadly, enough that may be one of the things keeping us from running out and filing at this point. We have a comfortable lifestyle that we both built together. BTW, not only has she rewritten the family history, she had told some neighbors that we are having problems, and it was *ME* who wanted out of the marriage! I expected as much since I would guess she's not going to admit to cheating to her cirlce of friends, eh? Some of the neighbors think she is STUPID for putting herself in that situation, as they know I treat her like a queen, and I am a great father to my kids.
Author TymeFlyes Posted March 30, 2008 Author Posted March 30, 2008 You can always put a PI on her ass, bust her for infidelity, and show her what a bad day in court looks like. I live in what would be considered a no-fault state, so I was told that adultery or infidelity does not particulary matter. So I don't think a PI would add much value in the court's eyes.
Nomad1 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 LadyJane - You are so perceptive and what you said resonated with my experience of enduring the EA of my STBXW. I particularly like the way you described the struggle the WS has to negotiate between dual personalities. The fogged personality usually wins and the EA turns into a PA. I've seen a devout catholic woman and loving mother turn into a monster and become totally detached from her three lovely boys. She couldn't care less about the end of her 17yr old marriage, the sale of her beautiful house and the devestation caused to her children! She became addicted to the EA. What's worse is that the object of her desire was an ex heroine user, 10 yrs younger, a prisoner about to be deported back to his country of origin. Both she and I are successful academics. I thought we had it all! She fought to get him out on bail and she succeeded. He now lives a couple of hours away and although he has a child and a girlfriend, she has been to see him a few times. I filed for divorce as I could not allow her to disrespect me and she recently moved out after living together but separated for 6 months! We have joint custody of our 3 boys although they prefer to stay with me. She said that they give her a hard time and that she can see them mainly living with me. Each time I see her, she cries and cries and always presents herself as the victim in the break-up of the family. Yes Timeflyes, your wife will re-write the history of your relationship and will try to persuade you that neither of you were happy. There is no use trying to reason with her about the relationship, but you may find that she will be more than willing to share the custody with you and any assets. Remember, she won't be thinking past the immediate fog and on a subconscious level will be inclined to be flexible. She will want you to have plenty of access to the kids as it will free her to pursue her object of desire! As to dating, I started dating a few months ago and I have now met a nice woman whose company I enjoy tremendously. I am not planning to settle down anytime soon, since my priority = my boys, but I enjoy the visits to the theatre, the dinners, the odd weekend away and the good conversation with a woman. So I would encourage you to start dating. Consider the relationship finished and only talk to her about the children and the division of assets. Encourage her to be open about her affair and to pursue it if she so wishes. Remember, affairs thrive on secrecy, once in the open, they lose their powerfully addictive qualities. Be consistent in your parenting. Your wife may be present in body but she is absent in mind and in all likelihood is probably not 100% the good mother she used to be. Children are very good at sensing these changes. If you are loving and consistent, they will bond with you more than ever at this crucial time in their lives when their mother has checked out not only from the marriage, but from her role as a mothr. Take care Nomad1
smokiejjj Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 Good luck with everything. I feel for you. Does she work with the OM.. could she quit and find a new job ? I mean if she is serious she would do this for kids and marriage. In all honesty be prepared for the worst.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 I had read "Surviving an Affair" and Plan A did *not* work, b/c I could not get any help from my wife to determine the emotional needs that I was failing to meet for her but the OM is providing. A really stellar "Plan A" is essential in making a clear contrast between what it means to have you in her life as a supportive partner, and what her life will be like without you in it. Plan A doesn't really depend on whether or not your WW is cooperative or not. In most instances, the WS isn't. All you're trying to accomplish in Plan A is to present yourself as the better alternative to wreck and ruin. You do have some options. If you take an honest assessment of your previous "Plan A" and if you find it really was kind of 'dead-on-arrival', you might want to revisit it for a few more weeks, even as long as three months or so if you feel it's going well. The whole point of Plan A is that when you withdraw into Plan B... she misses you. Or, as I said earlier, you can go ahead and divorce her out-of-hand. Introducing THE REALITY of divorce on your terms instead of hers, might leave her back-peddling her ass off... although you can't count on it. Fogged-out WS's are sometimes only too happy to call your bluff. So, if you decide to take a hard-line, be prepared to go through with it. Ultimatums mean NOTHING if you're not willing to back them up. Here's some fog for you though: She refuses to consider the 50/50 shared custody thing b/c she feels it will be too confusing for the kids to live in two homes. She wants the kids to remain living with her in *our* house while I pay child support to her. It's easy to see her view is completely distorted. Her master plan there above... isn't likely to be happening. It hinges upon YOUR cooperation. Joint custody is the norm in most states, and unless she has a VALID reason to deny you a 50/50 split, she's not going to get it by a judge unless you allow her to. She won't be able to keep the house either without your permission. You've said you live in a no-fault state. But I most certainly WOULD be prepared to prove adultery. Even in "no-fault" states, judges are human. There are laws on the books which must be enforced by virtue of state mandate, but as far as giving her any extras... nope. She's not going to be able to present herself as a sympathetic character. I think you'd do well to see an attorney as soon as possible, and also to go ahead and get evidence of infidelity. Check out some on-line divorce sites for state-by-state laws. Some states will expedite divorce when adultery is present even though they don't allow it's presence to prejudice settlement. If you decide to treat her to full-on, whirlwind REALITY CHECK... it's possible you don't have to give her all the lead time she's been planning to have.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 So I would encourage you to start dating. Consider the relationship finished and only talk to her about the children and the division of assets. Encourage her to be open about her affair and to pursue it if she so wishes. Remember, affairs thrive on secrecy, once in the open, they lose their powerfully addictive qualities. Be consistent in your parenting. Your wife may be present in body but she is absent in mind and in all likelihood is probably not 100% the good mother she used to be. Children are very good at sensing these changes. If you are loving and consistent, they will bond with you more than ever at this crucial time in their lives when their mother has checked out not only from the marriage, but from her role as a mothr. Thank you for the nice compliment, Nomad. You're very kind, and I've enjoyed your posts. I agree with what you've said here... but conditionally. I think this is good strategy AFTER divorce is filed, but not before. IMHO, it's better to take the high road and keep your nose clean, even in "no-fault" states. We don't want her getting any sympathy in family court. Best to speak and act at all times as if the judge were right in the room with you, watching every move.
Gunny376 Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 You need to take some time to get your life un-tangled from this woman, mentally, emotionally, financially ~ time to get your life in order ~ either the one that you have with the wife ~ or the new and future life ~ before you get into any serious dating mode. As a general rule? I advocate waiting a minimum of one year after the ink is dried on the divorce papers? There's a lot of hidden landmines laying ahead for you and in going through all of this? And I, nor anyone can present them to you, because each sitiuation is unqiue and different for each individual couple? What's not a problem for one couple is a major issue for another? They don't refer to seperation/divorce as "crazy-time" just for kicks and giggles you know? Its a roller coaster for most? And while you may be feeling strong and vigourous today walking down the sidewalk, rubbing a little sunshine on your face ~ in an instant you can find yourself a sobbing babbling idiot stumbling into a liqour store telling the clerk "Just give me two fifths of anything ~ I don't give a damn!" Me,, myelf personally? I steer clear of any woman that hasn't been officially divorced for a minimum of one year? I prefer two ~ but.......... In so far as dating someone from where you work? If they work for another company in the same building? That's a horse of a different color? But to date someone that is on the same payroll? Even dogs know not to crap where they eat and sleep? Beware of "re-bound" ~ I was physically seperated for one solid year from my X-Hex, and still ended up re-bounding! What happens with re-bound is that its not how long you've been physically sepearated from the X, but it has more emotional roots? You could be physically seperated/divorced for a year or two, slogging through the days, and then someone comes into your life? They revive you, make you feel wanted, needed, cherished even. The old ego is going strong, the id and superid are eating all this new found attention up? And then suddenly? You don't want to be with this person? You're feeling much, much better about yourself? You've got your confidence back? You're not only back to the best that you used to be? You're the new and improved version? And you want to move on with your "new" life and the "new your" As I said? There's a lot of "land mines" that lay before you? Your WS is off in la~la land? The comment about what she wants is no-where near any base of reality? Basically what she's saying when she says that she thinks that you should be the one that moves out, and that she should and the children should stay in the house is this: "You should move out, and the children and I will stay here? I keep 90% of everything that is worth stealing? You leave with your personal belongings (that I have no use for anyway?) and the clothes on your back and you get exclusive rights to pay for all that?" I wouldn't be a bit surprised that she hits you for both CS and alimony? I'm also willing to bet that the dust wouldn't have settled from your moving out? Before she's trying to move the OM in? (Or the next OM after him?) With his being a PO, I'd tell his wife, and then I stroll on down to the local Chief Of Police office and have a cup of coffee with him about the married officer that's out scrogging my wife? You've got this guy by the balls, and he knows it? In a single afternooon? He could lose his wife, his children, his family, his home, his job, his income, his carrer? Then I'd have my attorney draw up divorce papers, and I would seek sole custody of the children? You probally won't get it ~ but you'll get your 50/50? That is to say? Shoot for the moon ~ and then negotiate for a low orbit. The fact of the matter is? Women are granted sole custody or 50/50 - 90% of the time because men don't fight for it? But? In the 10% of the divorce cases where men do? They're awarded sole custody or 50/50, 90% of the time? What happens in most divorces when it comes to men is that men perceived that (through much misconcieved BS and propaganda from the left and the women's movement and vicious feminazi's) that they've got about a snowball's chance in Hell? And so they just lay down and take whatever the woman dictates? She thinks because she's a woman that its going to be all her way? That's not so? BTW? Don't make the mistake of speaking with just one attorney? Consult a minimum of three or more? Lawyers are people to? And even though you live in a NF state, well like LJ said? Judges are people to? For all you know? You might draw a divorce judge that's going through his own divorce? Or has just been through one? Or who's on third marriage? Wouldn't that be sweet?!
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