the dangling conversation

March 27, 2008

I know most of you hate me and are tired of listening to me whine about problems that I created. Fair enough. I would feel the same way in your place, but unfortunately I have no one else to turn to and I feel very alone right now.

If you remember where the last thread left off my bf and I got back together. Things were okay for about a day, then predictably unraveled.

It's weird because things will be great, as if we're back to the way we were before, when suddenly a flip switches and he no longer loves me. It's like I keep waking up from and then returning to the same nightmare. In the past week and a half it's gone back and forth from super close one night to barely talking the next.

Not only is his trust in me shattered, but my trust in him is falling apart. He keeps doing passive aggressive things to even the score. I know I deserve it, but it's also crushing any lingering hope our relationship has/had. Maybe it's naive for me to cling to hope. I just want so much for it to work. You guys are probably laughing at me for being so foolish.

Skip this section if you're not interested in the mundane details:

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There's this girl he had a big crush on in high school whom he got in touch with recently. When we were considering taking a "break" so I could see S, he told me he was going to pursue her and this other girl. I was okay with it, but when we got back together he felt that he should still be able to see these girls a few times (platonically, he claimed, and just for coffee) to even the score. I went back and forth, but eventually agreed.

We were starting to get really close again. He even told me out of the blue that he had changed his mind and didn't want to see the girls. I was touched and believed him.

The next day during an im conversation he told me he had just gotten back from hanging out with one of the girls and it went "swimmingly." I was pretty shocked because he had told me the night before that he wouldn't see her. We got into a fight. That night we tried yet again to make up and things seemed ok for the time being.

The next day I learned he had sent S a link to this forum (even though he had vowed many times to protect my privacy and never do such a thing). S read everything I had written in the thread my bf started and threads of my own. My bf was planning not to tell me about this, and made S promise he wouldn't either.

I felt like he had completely betrayed my privacy. There were hurtful things I had said about S that were never meant for his eyes, or very personal things I had written about myself. S ended up drinking to excess that night and was so drunk that he couldn't make his way back home. He ended up blacking out. I felt so sorry for him.

When I got upset about him sending the link to S, my bf seized on the opportunity to try to break up with me. I was crying and he had this cold, almost humorous expression on his face. He told me he had been lying to me all week when he said he wanted to try to work things out with me. He said he had seen that girl behind my back because he wanted to stay broken up. He also sent me a text message as we were talking that read "We are so over," and laughed about it. I (perhaps foolishly) begged him to take me back.

Then we made up, and he claimed he had been lying about lying to me to hurt me. I don't know what to even believe anymore. He also claimed I don't deserve him because throughout our relationship he hasn't thought about me enough or given me enough attention (as much as he gave to girls he crushed on in the past whom he barely knew). He feels this is what drove me to cheat.

The next day things were back to normal again. He sent me a text message saying "I love you so much Shadow...I miss you already. Sorry I have underhandedly been acting out to get back at you and S. I will stop before it ruins us." That night he was super affectionate and kept telling me how much he loved me.

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Those are just a few examples, but something like this happens almost every two days.

Every time we fight a little bit of our love for each other dies. I have the powerless sensation of watching a terminally ill patient wither away in bed. I can see the love gradually fading, bit by bit. I can see it in the blankness of his face. Usually it's not even anger, but a weary indifference like I'm some distant cousin or aquaintance that he's politely putting up with. His eyes are dead and his lips expressionless. My words, gestures, the little things he used to love about me, no longer move him.

Between the occasional outbursts of anger, it's been like that -- a quiet, slow death.

I still don't know why I did it. I've tried to probe my inner depths for an answer, but mostly come up empty-handed.

On some level I was in denial about the consequences of my actions. I denied his emotions and vulnerability. I thought he would love me no matter what. Boy, was I ever wrong. I also felt numb throughout the experience, as if a minor actor in my own life.

It occurs to me that in the past few years whenever I've done something self destructive it's been with this same numb, powerless feeling. It's like standing on the edge of a cliff and thinking to yourself how easy it would be to just step over the edge, and then actually doing it. Everybody has that fleeting urge to step over the edge, but most people don't actually act on it.

I don't know where or how, but at some point in my life I started feeling helpless, like I was no longer holding the reigns. I want so much to regain a sense of control, but I don't know how.

As somebody who was once brimming with potential and was born with many advantages, I've basically done everything in my power over the last few years to crush any chance I ever had of being happy or successful.

Sometimes I fantasize about suicide but I'm too much of a wimp to actually go through with it. I want relief, and the oblivion of death offers no relief.

I can't let go of him either. I can't bring myself to pull the plug on the vegetable that our relationship has become.

Edited March 27, 2008 by shadowplay

March 27, 2008

As John Mayer would say, you're slow dancing in a burning room. What I can't understand is why you're choosing to remain in the building at all?

March 27, 2008

As John Mayer would say, you're slow dancing in a burning room. What I can't understand is why you're choosing to remain in the building at all?

Because being alone is far scarier. I feel like he really is the best guy I've ever dated or may ever date period, and I can't accept the fact that I've blown my chances with him. Part of me wants to fight until the very end.

I'm scared of how much I'd miss him and the mess I'd become. I really am scared that I'd completely fall apart.

Basically what it comes down to: I fear change.

Edited March 27, 2008 by shadowplay

March 27, 2008

Basically what it comes down to: I fear change.

But what you have now is always changing because it's so unstable.

March 28, 2008

I don't hate you. I really feel for you.

When you are in these mangled-up situations sometimes you don't even understand what is happening anymore.

If you feel that you need to fight the good fight till the end, that you will at least feel good that you gave it your all, then do so. I would probably do the same thing. Although I have to admit, being with someone because you are afraid of being alone, isn't the *best* reason to be with someone, but it works for many, many people, who do live well.

I only say that to emphasize: don't beat yourself up right now. You are in a fragile place at the moment. Do your best to take care of yourself.

Someone once told me that when you are at the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on for dear life. I am not necessarily referencing the relationship with your bf with this, I am just referring to the place you are in right now.

Trust yourself. Give yourself time for things to become clear. It will take a while. I know what it's like to be in severe psychic pain and confusion. It does pass. It doesn't go away, probably never really does, but it does pass.

March 28, 2008

Hi Shadow, I'm glad you're still around.

This week I started a thread in the second chance section where I stated that I didn't feel like bf and I were going to make it, that he seemed too distant since the break up and that I would give up trying to make things work.

That same afternoon he called me to ask me out, we had a date last night which went amazingly well and just called me today to ask me out for Saturday night and we were incredibly flirty on the phone.

Before deciding to give up, I was feeling insecure and my emotions were all over the place. Since "giving up", I have felt more balanced and when we're together, we just have fun - the stakes aren't so high. It's not about proving that we're going to be together forever, it's about enjoying each other's company.

Now the reason I was able to let go so easily is because I know that I'm very happy on my own. I thought of you when I was feeling insecure - what an exhausting emotion insecurity can be. You're a contradiction Shadow; you claim to be afraid of becoming a mess without him yet you are capable of living through months of turmoil and insecurity.

Shadow, I wish there was a way to help you deal with your fears of change and fears of being alone. Again, not saying you should break things off with your bf, just saying that your relationship would likely be much healthier if it wasn't so fear-driven. Imagine being with him not because you're afraid, but because you are fearless.

You say you're afraid he's the best guy you'll ever date. It's not like you and your bf absolutely need to figure it all out right now. It seems to me you have the kind of relationship where no matter what happens, you know you will always keep in touch with each other.

March 28, 2008

You don't fear change, you fear stability. If things are going along too well, well, you decide to throw a wrench into it. You don't want to let him go, because what would you have to ponder deep thoughts over?

Are you not seeing that the ONLY reason you are attracted to this man right now is because he is distancing himself from you? That he might be interested in someone else? When he was being loving, you went out with his best friend and practically had sex with him. (I don't remember if you did or didn't but apparently boobs were involved) Now that Mr. Stable is no longer so stable, you decide that he is the love of your life and you cannot imagine life without him.

I don't know what happened in your childhood to give you such a skewed view of relationships, but I can guess that you had an absent parent or two, or went to boarding school, or were otherwise abandoned in some way. (Either emotionally or physically-an alcoholic parent maybe?) I can say this because I dated you in male form. I almost married your male form. He was "abandoned" by his parents. Same exact cycle of relationship--hot/cold/hot/cold. Eventually your relatively normal boyfriend is going to get sick of your drama and leave, permanently.

Just because you can logically acknowledge that he is a "good guy" doesn't mean you have to be with him. You aren't emotionally healthy enough at this point to be with a "good guy". Not saying that one day you won't be, but right now, no.

In addition, I feel that you have a relatively boring life, and the only way to inject some "life" into your life is by causing emotional turmoil in those around you, instead of say...working out, traveling, reaching a career milestone, continuing with your art, anything...but that would require you actually taking the time to figure out what it is that you actually want from life.

Or, you could be a sociopath, because your writing seems very detached and unemotional, almost as if you are an observer, and not really invested in what's going on, more out of a curiosity of the situation. But that's really not my place to say, just throwing it out there.

Or, maybe you are just a drama queen and attention ho--I really don't know. It seems that you need a lot of male attention, and I think that you did mention that you have no female friends. There's usually a reason for that, and that is wanting to be the center of attention, and another woman is just more competition for the attention. What better way to get attention than pit two good male friends against each other?

You know, I am not your therapist, which is why you might want to work out your issues with one. Throwing wanting to commit suicide into the mix is another attention getting statement. A sure fire way to get people to respond to your post and feeling sorry for you.

Seriously, get some therapy--you aren't a bad person, just a bad girlfriend right now. Until you do that, you will relive the same relationship dynamics over and over again. And chick friends are the best, so you are so missing out on the bonding and understanding that only you can get from a best female friend.

March 28, 2008

You don't fear change, you fear stability. If things are going along too well, well, you decide to throw a wrench into it. You don't want to let him go, because what would you have to ponder deep thoughts over?

Are you not seeing that the ONLY reason you are attracted to this man right now is because he is distancing himself from you? That he might be interested in someone else? When he was being loving, you went out with his best friend and practically had sex with him. (I don't remember if you did or didn't but apparently boobs were involved) Now that Mr. Stable is no longer so stable, you decide that he is the love of your life and you cannot imagine life without him.

I don't know what happened in your childhood to give you such a skewed view of relationships, but I can guess that you had an absent parent or two, or went to boarding school, or were otherwise abandoned in some way. (Either emotionally or physically-an alcoholic parent maybe?) I can say this because I dated you in male form. I almost married your male form. He was "abandoned" by his parents. Same exact cycle of relationship--hot/cold/hot/cold. Eventually your relatively normal boyfriend is going to get sick of your drama and leave, permanently.

Just because you can logically acknowledge that he is a "good guy" doesn't mean you have to be with him. You aren't emotionally healthy enough at this point to be with a "good guy". Not saying that one day you won't be, but right now, no.

In addition, I feel that you have a relatively boring life, and the only way to inject some "life" into your life is by causing emotional turmoil in those around you, instead of say...working out, traveling, reaching a career milestone, continuing with your art, anything...but that would require you actually taking the time to figure out what it is that you actually want from life.

Or, you could be a sociopath, because your writing seems very detached and unemotional, almost as if you are an observer, and not really invested in what's going on, more out of a curiosity of the situation. But that's really not my place to say, just throwing it out there.

Or, maybe you are just a drama queen and attention ho--I really don't know. It seems that you need a lot of male attention, and I think that you did mention that you have no female friends. There's usually a reason for that, and that is wanting to be the center of attention, and another woman is just more competition for the attention. What better way to get attention than pit two good male friends against each other?

You know, I am not your therapist, which is why you might want to work out your issues with one. Throwing wanting to commit suicide into the mix is another attention getting statement. A sure fire way to get people to respond to your post and feeling sorry for you.

Seriously, get some therapy--you aren't a bad person, just a bad girlfriend right now. Until you do that, you will relive the same relationship dynamics over and over again. And chick friends are the best, so you are so missing out on the bonding and understanding that only you can get from a best female friend.

I agree with many of your points, but others are really off and callous.

Not wanting female friends: This has nothing to do with wanting attention, but protecting myself. All the female friends I've had have betrayed or abused me. For this reason I haven't had any since I was about 18 or so.

I would like to make some now, but I'm really out of practice in relating to other girls. Frankly I don't even know what to talk about with them. Girls scare me.

And I'm not a sociopath, sheesh...

Are you a regular member in disguise?

Edited March 28, 2008 by shadowplay

March 28, 2008

Hi Shadow, I'm glad you're still around.

This week I started a thread in the second chance section where I stated that I didn't feel like bf and I were going to make it, that he seemed too distant since the break up and that I would give up trying to make things work.

That same afternoon he called me to ask me out, we had a date last night which went amazingly well and just called me today to ask me out for Saturday night and we were incredibly flirty on the phone.

Before deciding to give up, I was feeling insecure and my emotions were all over the place. Since "giving up", I have felt more balanced and when we're together, we just have fun - the stakes aren't so high. It's not about proving that we're going to be together forever, it's about enjoying each other's company.

Now the reason I was able to let go so easily is because I know that I'm very happy on my own. I thought of you when I was feeling insecure - what an exhausting emotion insecurity can be. You're a contradiction Shadow; you claim to be afraid of becoming a mess without him yet you are capable of living through months of turmoil and insecurity.

Shadow, I wish there was a way to help you deal with your fears of change and fears of being alone. Again, not saying you should break things off with your bf, just saying that your relationship would likely be much healthier if it wasn't so fear-driven. Imagine being with him not because you're afraid, but because you are fearless.

You say you're afraid he's the best guy you'll ever date. It's not like you and your bf absolutely need to figure it all out right now. It seems to me you have the kind of relationship where no matter what happens, you know you will always keep in touch with each other.

Thanks, Kamille. I like your "giving up" suggestion. I think I'll try that.

It makes sense that lightening things up would help a relationship that is being bogged down by heaviness. I'm tired of everything being so heavy.

The thing you said about being "insecure and my [your] emotions were all over the place" really hit home for me. The instability of the past two weeks has turned me into somebody I don't like. It's made me more demanding, needy and irritable. I'm going to try to break out of the cycle by not caring, and focusing on other things than the relationship. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Edited March 28, 2008 by shadowplay

March 28, 2008

I agree with many of your points, but others are really off and callous.

Not wanting female friends: This has nothing to do with wanting attention, but protecting myself. All the female friends I've had have betrayed or abused me. For this reason I haven't had any since I was about 18 or so.

I would like to make some now, but I'm really out of practice in relating to other girls. Frankly I don't even know what to talk about with them. Girls scare me.

And I'm not a sociopath, sheesh...

Are you a regular member in disguise?

No, not a regular member in hiding, however, a long time lurker who has read all of your posts at one time or another. I am so cold because I "was" your soon to be ex-boyfriend at one time, and to be quite frank, your angst is tiring. (However, as I mentioned, my ex was you in male form)

Either decide on him, or leave him alone. Because, I can practically guarantee that you will pull back once he decides to commit to making the relationship work again. You'll find some other "dangerous angsty soul" who seems soo attractive and enticing. And you won't know "why" you are so attracted to him, but you must "explore" it.

I've had plenty of female friends who betrayed me, plenty. But I don't condemn an entire gender because of the few who chose to screw me over. Girls "scare" you? Really? Are you going to tell me next that all we talk about are shoes and fashion? Because that is the typical response when the scare comment doesn't quite fly. Really, try a chick friend out. Chick friends will always be there..just choose wisely.

I am not trying to make you feel bad..well, maybe a little. Maybe I am projecting a bit, because I am your "boyfriend" to an extent. I mentioned sociopath because you seem to have no empathy for what you have put your boyfriend through.

Maybe not a sociopath, but a narcissist? You just do not seem to comprehend how you have just totally f-d your boyfriend up for a very long, long time. His next girlfriend will be punished for what you did to him. Do you get that? Do you get that he might not ever be able to fully "trust" another woman again? By doing what you did, you have changed every future relationship he will ever have..the only way it wouldn't affect him is 1. he has no soul or 2. he's just not that into you or 3. he realizes that you are an exception and that every women won't sleep with his best friend.

The most likely scenario is what happened to my best female friend, at about your age...her live in boyfriend cheated on her with her best friend..she hasn't had a stable relationship since...because she was so BETRAYED. Yes, she needs to realize that all men aren't the same, but, dang, if it hasn't f-d up every relationship since.

Try your boyfriend's hat on for a moment.

March 28, 2008

And another thing...it is all about YOU, and only your feelings. Nothing about how this might affect him. It's about making you feel better, and only you. Try and understand where his aloofness came from. And WHY HE IS BEING SO SELF PROTECTIVE. Can't you see it? Don't bring another damaged person out on the dating marketplace--really make it up to him.

March 28, 2008

I felt like he had completely betrayed my privacy. There were hurtful things I had said about S that were never meant for his eyes, or very personal things I had written about myself. S ended up drinking to excess that night and was so drunk that he couldn't make his way back home. He ended up blacking out. I felt so sorry for him.

Seriously, did you not see that coming? You gave a link to the man you were betraying fiercely. You've been saying very hurtful things about both of them. You did not earn his trust in this whole relationship. I mean, come on. You were going to bang the best friend and you feel betrayed that your boyfriend didn't stay entirely loyal to you during this? Why would he? And your boyfriend didn't cause the pain for Sean. You did. Sorry to say.

I agree, it wasn't nice of him. Yes, this is just another reason why this relationship is troubled. Neither of you can trust the other. But this isn't something that just happened. This isn't faith, nor kismet.

It's what you and your bf did. The results of your actions. And you need to start taking responsibility. I see it like zicke, you are observing where you should be acting.

If you want to rescue this relationship:

Go to therapy, both of you. Stop having sex as a replacement for emotional availability.

Maybe stop having sex altogether for a while. Make it about your personalities, how you fit together. Get to know each other. Frankly, I wonder how much you really know each other.

Stop seeing Sean altogether. Not alone, not with your boyfriend. When the two of them go out. Do something else. Don't make a drama out of it, just be busy. You cannot have everything. It's your boyfriend or Sean. And you need to make this decision soon. And you need to be explicit about it. Tell both of them and then never see Sean again.

Make a list, think about what you need of your partner. And tell him what it is you need. If he can give you this, go on and try together. If he cannot, accept it and go. Ask him to do the same. Make a list for yourself, too. Keep that list with you.

Basically: keep the drama at bay. Be responsible for yourself. Act, don't just observe.

But are you really interested in rescuing it? You wrote how bad it is. How you suffer. But you didn't ask how to make it better. Once again observation where action is needed.

I don't hate you, I think you could still do wonderful things and you could be a wonderful partner. But you chose to be a supporting actress in the movie of your life. Sometimes I wonder if you're really in the movie, or if you're just doing the voice-over. And this makes me sad. But in the end of the day, it's what you chose to be.

March 28, 2008

I'll admit it: I feel the remorse more intellectually than emotionally.

I know the emotions I'm supposed to feel. I know what I did was wrong, but sometimes I just feel...nothing. I have to actively imagine myself in my boyfriend's shoes to feel a strong emotion; it doesn't come naturally. I'll get a pang of remorse out of the blue, but then it just disappears as swiftly as it came.

Oddly, I have a strong maternal instinct. I like rescuing lost boys, nursing their wounds. But somehow the empathy flows much easier when it's pain someone else inflicted on them.

Zicke, I wish I could blame a bad family but mine was only averagely dysfunctional. My parents used to fight a lot and separated for a year when I was ten, but otherwise they were nothing monstrous. My mother is incredibly loving if a tad distracted. My father, aside from a bad temper and some neglectful behavior, was pretty normal. He used to hit me sometimes, but I was a difficult child. I don't hate my parents.

If anyone is to "blame" it's my peers, not my family. I never really recovered from being abused relentlessly by a group of "friends" when I was a young teen (9-13). It shattered my self esteem and made me hate people and the world for a long time. Most people who were bullied as kids get over it, but I got stuck in a thirteen-year-old mindset. I never moved on. (To this day I still have nightmares about those girls.)

I made a few more attempts to befriend groups of girls, but after being rejected again and again without explanation I finally gave up. I went through high school and most of college without talking to another soul because I was so scared of people. As a result, I didn't go through normal coming-of-age experiences. Instead I lived in a fantasy world populated with music, movies, books and artists I identified with. In a way, I never really grew up. I had to learn how to be an adult after the fact, and I still am.

I have a lot of stored up anger toward people, and sometimes that makes it hard for me to empathize. This sounds really sick, but part of me feels like I have a "free pass" to hurt others because of the treatment I endured growing up and because on some level I believe people are bad by nature. I actually feel worse when I hear about an animal dying than a child, because people never seem entirely innocent to me.

I know I have to get out of the victim mentality and own up to my actions. It's difficult to break a deeply ingrained mindset, but I really am making an effort now. I don't want to be so bitter anymore because it's hurting myself and others.

Edited March 28, 2008 by shadowplay

March 28, 2008

This sounds really sick, but part of me feels like I have a "free pass" to hurt others because of the treatment I endured growing up and because on some level I believe people are bad by nature.

Think of it this way: you are becoming one of those bullies for your boyfriend. You are becoming one of them.

It's difficult to break a deeply ingrained mindset, but I really am making an effort now.

How?

March 28, 2008

hi shadow...i'm very new here, so don't know your story, but i do feel for you, as another poster said. just going on first impressions, i think you have very low self worth, and next to no confidence in yourself. if you did, you would embrace the challenge of being an independent young woman who can make it on her own if she has to!!!! in fact, you'd enjoy the single life, and the thrill of standing on your own two feet and living an independent life.

you say you can't let go...yet you are having thoughts of suicide. do you really think being alone is going to be worse than this?? than feeling suicidal? being alone, and making your way through life, achieving good things on your own, will give you sooooooo much confidence, and one day you may well look back and wonder why you lived such a half life within this destructive, going-nowhere relationship.

be strong - take part in things that build your self worth, not strip it away like this relationship is doing. stand up to be counted, on your own two feet, and changes will happen - in your mind and in your life.

you deserve better than this unhappiness, this depression.

remember - life is for living!!!

March 28, 2008

Noone hates you, so don't say stuff like that...

You and you (ex) bf are just not compatible, that's for sure. You both are a toxic mix for eachother and as you said, every few days something goes amiss..

It's time to put YOU first and take a break from him and men in general. Get yourself back on track, do some counselling to help you and go from there. Rely on your woman friends, family and LS buddies.

March 28, 2008

If anyone is to "blame" it's my peers, not my family. I never really recovered from being abused relentlessly by a group of "friends" when I was a young teen (9-13). It shattered my self esteem and made me hate people and the world for a long time. Most people who were bullied as kids get over it, but I got stuck in a thirteen-year-old mindset. I never moved on. (To this day I still have nightmares about those girls.)

I made a few more attempts to befriend groups of girls, but after being rejected again and again without explanation I finally gave up. I went through high school and most of college without talking to another soul because I was so scared of people.

Shadow,

I told you how your BF would react to your actions. I've never understood why you don't pay much attention to what I say.

As messed up as your situation is... it's not that complicated.

You now find yourself up against a smart guy, who doesn't trust you emotionally, who is motivated to even the score with you, and who no longer sees the same level of value in you.

So... do you want to fix this or not?

March 28, 2008

I don't get it.

You're obviously so intelligent, but it's like there's a part of your brain that's completely undeveloped. The part responsible for survival, for finding something better.

Why are you torturing yourself?

IMO your relationship's fcvked. There are marriage involving kids that don't survive what you guys did to each other. Give it up.

March 28, 2008

hmmm.... don't know how to say this but no child is so difficult that he or she needs to be hit.

Children are, children. They tend to be all over the place. My parents never hit me, yet I almost set their house on fire, would throw tantrums in stores and even completely destroyed the carpets (I decided I wanted to wash them).

This is a parenting style that your father chose. You aren't responsible for it, as your "I was a difficult child" implies.

Could you clarify what you mean by that?

Edited March 28, 2008 by Kamille

March 28, 2008

I don't get it.

You're obviously so intelligent, but it's like there's a part of your brain that's completely undeveloped. The part responsible for survival, for finding something better.

Why are you torturing yourself?

IMO your relationship's fcvked. There are marriage involving kids that don't survive what you guys did to each other. Give it up.

It boils down to fear. Perhaps you guys don't understand how isolated I am. My bf right now is my only connection to other people my age. It's rare that I meet guys because I'm so rarely in social environments.

Everyone's afraid of being alone when they leave a relationship, but most people have at least a few friends to keep isolation at bay. I do not. The few guy friends I have are thousands of miles away at my old school. Without my bf I would be quite literally alone.

Believe me, I want desperately to make friends and meet people. I just have no clue how. I've actually spent a lot of time brainstorming about this, but I can't figure out a course of action.

Let me explain the trickiness of my situation. I'm 24. I was at a very prestigious college but got kicked out my last semester there for not finishing enough credits. The sad thing is I was so close to graduating. This was about a year ago, and I haven't been able to apply anywhere else until this semester because my old school wouldn't release my transcript to other schools until I paid off tuition bills. The fact that I don't have a BA and feel so behind my peers is really taking a toll on my confidence.

So I'll probably be back at (a much *****t!er) school in the Fall for a year and a half (most schools don't transfer more than 60 credits). I doubt I'll be able to make many friends wherever I am because I'll be so much older than everyone else.

Where do I make friends my age? I have no social context whatsoever. Plus there's the embarrassment of having to explain to potential friends why I don't have my degree. Would they really want to befriend someone who's at a different stage in life?

To compound matters I'm extremely shy/awkward in social situations. It takes me months to feel comfortable around somebody (took that long with my bf). When I know somebody well I'm talkative and easy-going, but I'm terrible at striking up random conversations with strangers.

I'm eager to hear suggestions from you guys, because this is an ongoing struggle for me. I appreciate all the thoughtful advice I've received on here.

For what its worth I called a few therapists today and I'm waiting to hear back.

March 28, 2008

It boils down to fear. Perhaps you guys don't understand how isolated I am. My bf right now is my only connection to other people my age. It's rare that I meet guys because I'm so rarely in social environments.
Everyone's afraid of being alone when they leave a relationship, but most people have at least a few friends to keep isolation at bay. I do not. The few guy friends I have are thousands of miles away at my old school. Without my bf I would be quite literally alone.

Believe me, I want desperately to make friends and meet people. I just have no clue how. I've actually spent a lot of time brainstorming about this, but I can't figure out a course of action.

Let me explain the trickiness of my situation. I'm 24. I was at a very prestigious college but got kicked out my last semester there for not finishing enough credits. The sad thing is I was so close to graduating. This was about a year ago, and I haven't been able to apply anywhere else until this semester because my old school wouldn't release my transcript to other schools until I paid off tuition bills. The fact that I don't have a BA and feel so behind my peers is really taking a toll on my confidence.

So I'll probably be back at (a much *****t!er) school in the Fall for a year and a half (most schools don't transfer more than 60 credits). I doubt I'll be able to make many friends wherever I am because I'll be so much older than everyone else.

Where do I make friends my age? I have no social context whatsoever. Plus there's the embarrassment of having to explain to potential friends why I don't have my degree. Would they really want to befriend someone who's at a different stage in life?

To compound matters I'm extremely shy/awkward in social situations. It takes me months to feel comfortable around somebody (took that long with my bf). When I know somebody well I'm talkative and easy-going, but I'm terrible at striking up random conversations with strangers.

I'm eager to hear suggestions from you guys, because this is an ongoing struggle for me. I appreciate all the thoughtful advice I've received on here.

For what its worth I called a few therapists today and I'm waiting to hear back.

Dude, using someone as an emotional crutch is not going to solve your problems.

You're in your early 20s and you live in a big city. There are TONS of people, I am sure, who move there for work etc. who are looking for friends. Join an outdoor excursion club or something. Make ONE semi-friend and tag alone everyone he / she goes until you know more people. It isn't hard. I understand your fear, but by staying with your bf you're just prolonging the inevitable. I do not see you making progress as long as you are with him.

March 29, 2008

Shadow, I know you think your upbringing has little to do with the issues you are currently struggling with, but I've been thinking about this sentence and I would really like it if we could discuss it some more:

My father, aside from a bad temper and some neglectful behavior, was pretty normal. He used to hit me sometimes, but I was a difficult child.

A lot of parents feel physical violence is justified when raising children - so that is not really what I want to bring into focus.

What I find intriguing is that you seemed to have internalized that you deserved the punishments.

I myself was raised by a mother who would use verbal threats in my upbringing, basically telling me that if I didn't behave, I would turn out to be a bad person.

It took me a few sessions with a therapist that the message I was receiving from this was basically that I was an abnormaly flawed individual.

It sounds to me like the message you internalized from the punishments is that you were a 'difficult' read, in child speak, 'bad' child. You didn't internalize them as trying to make you learn life lessons for you own good, you internalized them as a statement on who you were.

It might explain why you have such a hard time taking responsibility for your actions - and why you step over the edge more often then others, even when knowing that what you are doing is going to negatively impact those you love. You have heard that you were difficult and that there was no other way to deal with you. You haven't hear that you were but a child, who needed to be guided and who could make mistakes, try out new experiences and learn from those.

But I'm rambling because you haven't mentionned when and why your dad hit you. Still, the very way you present it suggests you integrated the belief you were fundamentally bad and out of control at a very early age.

March 29, 2008

Shadow, I know you think your upbringing has little to do with the issues you are currently struggling with, but I've been thinking about this sentence and I would really like it if we could discuss it some more:

A lot of parents feel physical violence is justified when raising children - so that is not really what I want to bring into focus.

What I find intriguing is that you seemed to have internalized that you deserved the punishments.

I myself was raised by a mother who would use verbal threats in my upbringing, basically telling me that if I didn't behave, I would turn out to be a bad person.

It took me a few sessions with a therapist that the message I was receiving from this was basically that I was an abnormaly flawed individual.

It sounds to me like the message you internalized from the punishments is that you were a 'difficult' read, in child speak, 'bad' child. You didn't internalize them as trying to make you learn life lessons for you own good, you internalized them as a statement on who you were.

It might explain why you have such a hard time taking responsibility for your actions - and why you step over the edge more often then others, even when knowing that what you are doing is going to negatively impact those you love. You have heard that you were difficult and that there was no other way to deal with you. You haven't hear that you were but a child, who needed to be guided and who could make mistakes, try out new experiences and learn from those.

But I'm rambling because you haven't mentionned when and why your dad hit you. Still, the very way you present it suggests you integrated the belief you were fundamentally bad and out of control at a very early age.

Growing up my dad did tell me over and over again that I was a bad person. He would tell me things a father should never tell his child. He called me a monster, an ugly person, sick, twisted, evil. He told me he wasn't surprised I had no friends and he pitied any person who ever got involved with me. My mother would jump to my defence and tell him not to say such things, but I started believing his words anyway because he spoke them with such conviction.

To be fair I was a very difficult child. I was obstinate and would cause a fit at times when I didn't get my way. I would often get into fights with my mother (I even slapped her a few times when I was six or seven, which prompted her to take me to therapy), but was always very respectful of my father because he scared the bejeezus out of me. It was usually during fights with my mother that my father would call me names or hit me. He was verbally abusive, but I wouldn't call the hitting abuse except for a couple of times when he left welts on my legs.

When my parents separated for a year (I was ten), my uncle moved in and he treated me in a similar way. It was this weird love/hate relationship because I idealized him, but we also butted heads all the time. He was verbally (but not physically) abusive and sometimes put me in the closet as a punishment.

I've often wondered if this has shaped the type of guy I'm attracted to, or the way I feel about myself as a person.

Edited March 29, 2008 by shadowplay

March 30, 2008

It boils down to fear. Perhaps you guys don't understand how isolated I am. My bf right now is my only connection to other people my age. It's rare that I meet guys because I'm so rarely in social environments.
Everyone's afraid of being alone when they leave a relationship, but most people have at least a few friends to keep isolation at bay. I do not. The few guy friends I have are thousands of miles away at my old school. Without my bf I would be quite literally alone.

Believe me, I want desperately to make friends and meet people. I just have no clue how. I've actually spent a lot of time brainstorming about this, but I can't figure out a course of action.

Let me explain the trickiness of my situation. I'm 24. I was at a very prestigious college but got kicked out my last semester there for not finishing enough credits. The sad thing is I was so close to graduating. This was about a year ago, and I haven't been able to apply anywhere else until this semester because my old school wouldn't release my transcript to other schools until I paid off tuition bills. The fact that I don't have a BA and feel so behind my peers is really taking a toll on my confidence.

So I'll probably be back at (a much *****t!er) school in the Fall for a year and a half (most schools don't transfer more than 60 credits). I doubt I'll be able to make many friends wherever I am because I'll be so much older than everyone else.

Where do I make friends my age? I have no social context whatsoever. Plus there's the embarrassment of having to explain to potential friends why I don't have my degree. Would they really want to befriend someone who's at a different stage in life?

To compound matters I'm extremely shy/awkward in social situations. It takes me months to feel comfortable around somebody (took that long with my bf). When I know somebody well I'm talkative and easy-going, but I'm terrible at striking up random conversations with strangers.

I'm eager to hear suggestions from you guys, because this is an ongoing struggle for me. I appreciate all the thoughtful advice I've received on here.

For what its worth I called a few therapists today and I'm waiting to hear back.

Hi Shadow,

I too am pretty shy and socially awkard but I have some advice for you.

First, you need to get some practice talking to strangers. Go to a Starbucks (most employees there are given some training in interacting with customers) when it is not busy and go order something. Say something more to the barista than just your order and thank you. Say something like, wow this place is really clean, do you like working here? I know this sounds silly and artificial but the barista will probably say something personal back to you and just this little social interaction will hopefully start to give you a little confidence and practice talking to strangers. If you do something like this several times it will start to come more naturally to you. Don't worry if these people are your same age. Talking with somebody with the possiblility of friendship is not much different. Also, it is very very common for people to not have finished their degree by age 24. This fact should have little to no impact on you making friends around your age. If somebody has a problem with that he or she is probably a little odd so you probably didn't need that person for a friend anyway.

It sounds like you are already doing this, but you really need to get back into a school and finish your degree. That should give you a big boost of confidence. It appears that you have a fear of having to explain your past to others. The fact is you don't need to justify your past schooling misfortunes to anybody. When meeting new class mates it is probably highly unlikely anybody is going to ask about your age or why you are attending that school now (alot of people will probably just think you have always gone there and they just never saw you before). You are only 24, ( I am almost 36 and I go to college full time with a bunch of 20 somethings and nobody has ever asked me my age or even brought up that I look older than several of the other students) so I think your age is a total non issue. I think you are imagining small problems and making them way bigger than they really are. You might be doing this because you are soo isolated and there is nobody there to challenge these assumptions you are making.

I hope this helps. It looks like you could use a couple of good girl friends right now.

March 30, 2008

No, I personally certainly don't hate you.

I just wonder why you hate yourself so much, since you continue to perpetuate such pain in your life. Only someone with a large degree of self-loathing would continue to inflict this masochistical drama.

As many, including myself, have said over and over again, no one here can really help you. Your pathology goes very deep, SP, and you really will only benefit and make life changes by seeing a trained professional.

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