Question for MM who have a crush

[smartgirl]

Lately, there have been a number of threads started by men who have developed a crush on OW at work. Some are very dissatisfied with their marriages, some a little and some just one aspect of the marriage. In some cases, as would be typical, I think the dissatisfactions seem to start increasing the longer the crush goes on and the more intense it gets.

 

Most of these men are turned on by the postive feedback they feel from this OW. I am wondering is how much of this positive feeling is being generated by and growing because of the actions of the MM himself, whether he realizes it or not.

 

Specifically, I am hearing things like: the MM sends little emails or texts throughout the day, calls or leaves phone messages for no important (or contrived) reason, brings little treats like brownies or coffee, gives long admiring looks, compliments appearance, asks OW out to lunch, anything else that lets a woman know the man has been thinking of her when she isn't around, etc. All of these things make a woman feel highly desirable which of course leads her to desire the source of the good feelings more and more.

 

So my questions are:

 

o do you understand the impact that the gestures mentioned above can have on a woman?

 

o when is the last time you gave your wife this same kind of attention?

 

o do you understand that a wife could feel more womanly and desirable when given this same kind of attention, even if the attention came from her H of many years.

 

This is not an accusation, because I really don't know what any of you are doing or not doing at home. But many of the posts I am reading beg the question.

[TechDude]

o do you understand the impact that the gestures mentioned above can have on a woman?

Absolutely.

 

o when is the last time you gave your wife this same kind of attention?

Probably more recently than I have done it for an OW

 

o do you understand that a wife could feel more womanly and desirable when given this same kind of attention, even if the attention came from her H of many years.

I really do wish this were true.

[GoodOnPaper]

o do you understand the impact that the gestures mentioned above can have on a woman?

 

No -- and that's one of the reasons why I don't want to let the crush go, at least for now. A couple of years ago, I became aware of my lifelong shy, nerdy, "nice guy" ways, and I consider it a complete fluke (or at least extremely poor judgment on her part) that someone was interested in marrying me and having kids with me when everything I did and thought during my single years regarding flirting, dating, etc. was completely "wrong". While I've managed to drift through my marriage, in my friendship with the OW, I am more consciously aware of the things that factor into attraction -- conversation tone, verbal & non-verbal cues, etc. -- and I am learning a lot. Most importantly, I am learning about how I connect to a woman. This is all basic stuff that most guys master by their early 20s, and I'm about 20 years late, but I don't see how one can successfully navigate a marriage without having been competent at these basic skills.

 

o when is the last time you gave your wife this same kind of attention?

 

In some ways I currently do, but it's different because the slate is not clean to start. It's like I'm faced with advanced calculus problems to solve when I'm still trying to master basic arithmetic skills.

 

o do you understand that a wife could feel more womanly and desirable when given this same kind of attention, even if the attention came from her H of many years.

 

Sounds good in theory, but it's somewhere I'm hesitant to go until I have more confidence in my competency with women in general.

[smartgirl]

Absolutely.

 

Probably more recently than I have done it for an OW

 

I really do wish this were true.

 

 

I'm sorry if you have tried to be more attentive to your wife and it hasn't worked. For myself, it had a big impact. My H did little things for me -- like opening a door and waiting for me to enter first -- that one might do for a date but that he had never done for me before. That is a trivial example, but it is the kind of thing that can make a woman feel more valuable. He came up with ideas of things for us to do and tries to call me at least once during the day and then on his way home.

 

Sadly, I think his OW (who was a demanding princess type) probably pointed out to him his shortcomings in this area where I never had. I think some of these things are things he did for her and then maybe felt bad he had never done them for me. I had always just accepted him for who is was, which is actually what made him realize he wanted to be with me and not her.

[smartgirl]

No -- and that's one of the reasons why I don't want to let the crush go, at least for now. A couple of years ago, I became aware of my lifelong shy, nerdy, "nice guy" ways, and I consider it a complete fluke (or at least extremely poor judgment on her part) that someone was interested in marrying me and having kids with me when everything I did and thought during my single years regarding flirting, dating, etc. was completely "wrong". While I've managed to drift through my marriage, in my friendship with the OW, I am more consciously aware of the things that factor into attraction -- conversation tone, verbal & non-verbal cues, etc. -- and I am learning a lot. Most importantly, I am learning about how I connect to a woman. This is all basic stuff that most guys master by their early 20s, and I'm about 20 years late, but I don't see how one can successfully navigate a marriage without having been competent at these basic skills.

 

In some ways I currently do, but it's different because the slate is not clean to start. It's like I'm faced with advanced calculus problems to solve when I'm still trying to master basic arithmetic skills.

 

Sounds good in theory, but it's somewhere I'm hesitant to go until I have more confidence in my competency with women in general.

 

My H and I were only 16 when we got together and he is also very shy and introverted. He never learned really how "to treat a woman" in the way we are discussing and I never pushed him for more. I liked him for his essential self.

 

Somewhere along the line he took that good thing and translated in his mind to a negative. Because I accepted him without any effort on his part my love began to have less value to him than the affection he was "earning" through his experience with the OW. To some degree I guess this is the competition model that men tend to apply to life. Something fought for will always be more valuable than something you already have. Sometimes you don't realize how good the thing you had was until you lose it or come damn close.That's sad.

 

I don't know what you are waiting for in terms of applying courtship behavior towards your wife. It sounds like you are just making an excuse to continue your relationship with OW. If you keep waiting, you may find it is too late.

[norajane]

Sounds good in theory, but it's somewhere I'm hesitant to go until I have more confidence in my competency with women in general.

 

1) Why do you care about your competency with women in general, when the only thing that matters to your actual life is your relationship with your wife?

 

2) What's the worst thing that could happen if you started to flirt with your wife and pay attention to her? Why are you afraid to do that?

[GoodOnPaper]

My H and I were only 16 when we got together and he is also very shy and introverted. He never learned really how "to treat a woman" in the way we are discussing and I never pushed him for more. I liked him for his essential self.

 

Somewhere along the line he took that good thing and translated in his mind to a negative. Because I accepted him without any effort on his part my love began to have less value to him than the affection he was "earning" through his experience with the OW. To some degree I guess this is the competition model that men tend to apply to life. Something fought for will always be more valuable than something you already have. Sometimes you don't realize how good the thing you had was until you lose it or come damn close.That's sad.

 

I don't know what you are waiting for in terms of applying courtship behavior towards your wife. It sounds like you are just making an excuse to continue your relationship with OW. If you keep waiting, you may find it is too late.

 

I appreciate your reply. Much of it hits home. Dispelling the notion that "it doesn't count unless you bleed for it" is something I've always struggled with. As messed up as I was (am), I did not have to make any effort to attract my W. I found this very strange, as countless other attempts to attract women during my single days failed miserably.

[GoodOnPaper]

1) Why do you care about your competency with women in general, when the only thing that matters to your actual life is your relationship with your wife?

 

At times, my lack of experience gives me a fraudulent feeling about my marriage -- like finishing a homework assignment by looking up the answers in the back of the book instead of understanding how to work through the problems.

 

2) What's the worst thing that could happen if you started to flirt with your wife and pay attention to her? Why are you afraid to do that?

 

Chicken-and-egg situation. Does flirting create attraction or does attraction provide motivation for flirting? Why should I flirt with any woman if (at that moment) I don't feel attraction?

[smartgirl]

I appreciate your reply. Much of it hits home. Dispelling the notion that "it doesn't count unless you bleed for it" is something I've always struggled with. As messed up as I was (am), I did not have to make any effort to attract my W. I found this very strange, as countless other attempts to attract women during my single days failed miserably.

 

In high school I became suddenly and inexplicably attracted to my future H. He was studious and serious and introverted. He had never had a steady girlfriend. I was outgoing and had dated of lot of guys, none of whom were much like him. I thought he was special and different and I was mesmerized.

 

For some reason he always seemed slightly suspect of my attraction to him. I think he has felt that I wanted him because he was a sure thing and that he would be too afraid that he couldn't get anything better to ever break up with me.

 

After the A we did a lot of talking and personal growth and he realized that the simple fact was that I loved who he was. His low self-esteem had somehow discounted that before. He also realized he needed to show me more appreciation and attention than he had for years.

 

Don't let what you have die. The closer you get to the OW, the more distance you create between you and your wife. Even if you don't mean for that to happen, that IS what will happen.

[norajane]

At times, my lack of experience gives me a fraudulent feeling about my marriage -- like finishing a homework assignment by looking up the answers in the back of the book instead of understanding how to work through the problems.

 

So, just because you didn't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to win her over, you feel like your marriage isn't worthwhile, or you are somehow a fake?

 

Your wife was attracted to YOU as you are. You are blessed, actually, because you know she appreciates you for who you are, she didn't play any games. And your courtship wasn't filled with all the anxiety and heartache of not knowing how she feels. This board is full of people who wish to have that, a person who loves them as-is. That doesn't make it fraudulent. That makes it special.

 

Chicken-and-egg situation. Does flirting create attraction or does attraction provide motivation for flirting? Why should I flirt with any woman if (at that moment) I don't feel attraction?

Because she is your wife, the woman who loves you, and frankly, the only woman in your life who loves you as you are, completely. And yes, if you flirt with her and bring a little romance into your life, guess what, she'll start flirting back. And yes, that will make your marriage more fun and you'll both be more attracted to each other.

 

Take all that energy that you would put into flirting with someone else, and flirt with your wife.

 

If you don't, as smartgirl said, the distance between you will grow, and the love will die. Are you prepared to lose your wife's love? Because that's the road you're heading down.

[BlueEyedGirl]

I think that the big part of a problem in lots of these cases is that H's met the W when they were either young or pretty inexperienced with women in general. I would be very hesistant to marry someone like that. Men need to get their "need for adventure" out of the system and if they haven't done so before the M they will do it later. Also I get a feeling that these men settled in lots of ways because of their shyness/insecurities.

[GoodOnPaper]

I think that the big part of a problem in lots of these cases is that H's met the W when they were either young or pretty inexperienced with women in general. I would be very hesistant to marry someone like that. Men need to get their "need for adventure" out of the system and if they haven't done so before the M they will do it later. Also I get a feeling that these men settled in lots of ways because of their shyness/insecurities.

 

There are no "lots of ways" about it when it came to my settling. I could have done worse, but intimacy has been very difficult. I have suppressed my natural "need for adventure" for a long time, and I think it's coming through now because I'm frustrated enough to question the self-limiting beliefs I've imposed on myself. (Even though I'm a shy, nerdy type, maybe I'm "allowed" to want adventure, an exciting sex life, etc. -- crazy, I know.)

[GoodOnPaper]

So, just because you didn't have to twist yourself into a pretzel to win her over, you feel like your marriage isn't worthwhile, or you are somehow a fake?

 

It's more an issue of choice. SHE chose me, and I just went along for the ride. I came into our R after a lengthy dry spell, and I figured that if I wanted any sex at all -- and yes, shy nerdy types want sex too -- I'd have to take what I could get. I need to choose HER. But that's tricky, because choosing from a pool of one is not a choice. It's being stuck.

 

Your wife was attracted to YOU as you are. You are blessed, actually, because you know she appreciates you for who you are, she didn't play any games. And your courtship wasn't filled with all the anxiety and heartache of not knowing how she feels. This board is full of people who wish to have that, a person who loves them as-is. That doesn't make it fraudulent. That makes it special.

 

So I should be grateful that she chose me. In a way, I was, and it resulted in this whole mid-life thing.

 

I know it's frustrating, for me as well as you guys. I appreciate the input from you and BEG and smartgirl. I'll let smartgirl get some more MM viewpoints on her original post.

[car2007]

Because she is your wife, the woman who loves you, and frankly, the only woman in your life who loves you as you are, completely. And yes, if you flirt with her and bring a little romance into your life, guess what, she'll start flirting back. And yes, that will make your marriage more fun and you'll both be more attracted to each other.

 

I believe this is true in many marriages, but not all. Unfortunately, one spouse or the other (don't want to pin all this on women) doesn't love love the H/W for who they are, but who they wish they were. If there is respect in the marriage, this can still lead to many years of friendship and comfort, but not lead to passion and reverence if it didn't start there. Comfort is good, but after some years it can lead to a kind of numbness. I believe there must be passion at the start. If it's lost for a time, couples can get it back by remembering and doing things for each other like they used to. Like a sine curve - up, down, then back up. But if the first "up" part of the curve was pretty flat to begin with, I'm not sure there is much of a chance that it's going to be able to get up further than it was to begin with later on.

[smartgirl]

It's more an issue of choice. SHE chose me, and I just went along for the ride. I came into our R after a lengthy dry spell, and I figured that if I wanted any sex at all -- and yes, shy nerdy types want sex too -- I'd have to take what I could get. I need to choose HER. But that's tricky, because choosing from a pool of one is not a choice. It's being stuck.

 

So I should be grateful that she chose me. In a way, I was, and it resulted in this whole mid-life thing.

 

I know it's frustrating, for me as well as you guys. I appreciate the input from you and BEG and smartgirl. I'll let smartgirl get some more MM viewpoints on her original post.

 

I agree -- I would like some more input on my original post. But this post was too eerily familiar so I have to comment.

 

My H also lamented, as he put it, making a decision that really didn't have any choices. Meaning, he asked me to marry him when he hadn't really shopped around first. I think he was grateful that I wanted him. He had plenty of positive validation from other guys that he had girlfriend other men were very attracted to. But it didn't change what I guess was a low level of resentment or just questioning whether I really was the best. For most of our marriage he has been very happy. But the doubt reared its head a couple of times.

 

His decision 25 years into our marriage to sample a relationship with another woman got out of hand and he eventually considered whether to leave me for her or not. But she didn't "love" him for who he was. She loved the idea of who she thought he was. He began to realize that, had already made the decision to end that relationship and was in the process of untangling when I found out.

 

Well, he now feels he has made a decision that had choices. Taking that other relationship as far as he did made him realize and appreciate more what he had with me. But this has come at a tremendous cost to me personally and to our marriage. Neither will ever be the same.

 

So related to my original post - applying courtship behavior towards your wife may take you to places you hadn't even imagined. In After the Affair, the author advises to show loving behavior even if you don't really feel loving as you are trying to rebuild your marriage. The results can surprise you.

 

So -- you can tell the OW to take a hike and at least see if you can mend your marriage. If you don't want to do that, then don't drag your wife through hell. Tell the OW you need a break while you work to end your marriage. You may live to regret it, but you seem determined to go down that road. Just show some respect for your wife, since she has done nothing but love you and doesn't deserve to be treated so shabbily.

Edited March 28, 2008 by smartgirl
forgot text