whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I am not coming to YOU, you are not center of the universe OWL. I am posting my opinions as you are, don't take them so personally and you won't get your feathers ruffled. How can he not take this personally when you directed this line AT him?? I lived it thank you very much. in fact I lived something FAR more real than you
stampdaddy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 A man calls home to his wife and says, "Honey I have been asked to go fishing at a big lake up in Canada with my boss and several of his friends. We'll be gone for a week. This is a good opportunity for me to get that promotion I've been wanting, so would you please pack me enough clothes for a week and set out my rod and tackle box. We're leaving from the office and I will swing by the house to pick my things up. Oh! And please pack my new blue silk pajamas." The wife thinks this sounds a little fishy but being a good wife she does exactly what her husband asked. The following weekend he comes home a little tired but otherwise looking good. The wife welcomes him home and asks if he caught many fish. He says, "Yes! Lots of Walleye, some Blue gill, and a few Pike. But why didn't you pack my new blue silk pajamas like I asked you to do?" The wife replies; "I did, they were in your tackle box."
Tomcat33 Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 WWIU - you have no idea the weekend I had, am just comming off a very nice "high" so believe me I am SO NOT having a bad day.... Still that doesn't mean I will let someone belittle me in their own ignorance.
whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 SD, I think you need to allow your wife time to run the obvious gamut of emotions that any NORMAL person would naturally feel in this situation. SD (Scriv, not stamp) definately encourage your wife to go talk to someone to help her deal with her anger and hurt. She's messed up and very emotional, so please, talk to her about talking to someone.
whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I just clued into that like 5 seconds ago. LOL!
stampdaddy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 An Illinois man left the snow-filled streets of Chicago for a vacation in Florida. His wife was on a business trip and was planning to meet him there the next day. When he reached his hotel, he decided to send his wife a quick email. Unable to find the scrap of paper on which he had written her email address, he did his best to type it in from memory. Unfortunately, he missed one letter and his note was directed instead to an elderly preacher's wife, whose husband had passed away only the day before. When the grieving widow checked her email, she took one look at the monitor, let out a piercing scream and fell to the floor in a dead faint. At the sound, her family rushed into the room and saw this note on the screen: DEAREST WIFE: JUST GOT CHECKED IN. EVERYTHING PREPARED FOR YOUR ARRIVAL TOMORROW. P.S. SURE IS HOT DOWN HERE.
stampdaddy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Nah, you were just unavailable for awhile. And once you get your head back on straight, honey, you'll be back in the saddle! And once Scrivdog's wife gets HER head back on straight, they can do something meaningful toward repairing their marriage. yeeeeeeeee hawww
Owl Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 OK...back to the original purpose of this thread. Scriv- Why haven't you told the OW that its completely over, vs the "for now" response you gave her?
whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Seems he doesn't want to shut the door completely on the OW so incase his marriage doesn't work out or his wife kicks him out, he'll still have the OW as back-up so he won't be alone. Scriv, are you inlove with your OW? If so, then maybe I can understand you wanting to not close the door...I just don't get that you're INLOVE with her though, she's more like 'feeling in needs that are missing from your life and makes you feel good and desirable.'
MarriedLife Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Fact is, if you loved her, you wouldn't have stuck your member in other women. If the reason people had affairs was simply because they have fallen out of love then there would be no need for further discussion and therefore no need for this site. Affairs are more complex than that.
Author Scrivdog Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Seems he doesn't want to shut the door completely on the OW so incase his marriage doesn't work out or his wife kicks him out, he'll still have the OW as back-up so he won't be alone. Scriv, are you inlove with your OW? If so, then maybe I can understand you wanting to not close the door...I just don't get that you're INLOVE with her though, she's more like 'feeling in needs that are missing from your life and makes you feel good and desirable.' No - that wasn;t my thinking at the time. I really just don't know what W is going to want to do here and I don't know what I'm going to want to do just yet. It just seemed odd to say to OW that we'll never see each other again. I didn't bullsh*t her either. I told her there was going to be nothing between us until I figure out what I'm doing and that if there's a chance W and I can patch things up, then I will. I had already made it pretty clear to OW that there was no future between us. At the time - I told her I had no intention of leaving W and that even if I did, there would be no us living like a couple until the kids are out of the house.
twice_shy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 {sigh}... Scriv, I think it'll come as no surprise that sometime I wish that I could smack you. :p:p Why must you persist in taking the darkest and most pessimistic view of your wife and marriage? Because as long as he holds this contempt for his wife, he can justify in his own mind still having the OW.
whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Okay, well that's honest enough. I do hope you do your part and be in NC mode with the OW. Best for her, best for you. Even if you miss her, want to talk to her, don't. NC must be respected by BOTH of you, IF you really want to clear your head and give your marriage a real chance of working. Both you and your wife need to get to counseling. Together and apart.
twice_shy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 If the reason people had affairs was simply because they have fallen out of love then there would be no need for further discussion and therefore no need for this site. Affairs are more complex than that. So enlighten us. Give us an example of this complexity.
Author Scrivdog Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 {sigh}... Scriv, I think it'll come as no surprise that sometime I wish that I could smack you. :p:p Why must you persist in taking the darkest and most pessimistic view of your wife and marriage? You've already said that she's got nothing to lose in terms of financial security by ending it. If she just wants the house and the money, you've already offered them to her. So, doesn't it stand to reason that she's looking for something less tangible? You know, hon... you FIND what you look for in life. If you're looking for control mechanisms and manipulations, that's what you're gonna find. But if you look for the BEST in your wife, if you look for examples of honor and integrity and love in her, you're gonna find those too. We're telling you RIGHT about this "hysterical bonding" thing. It has nothing to do with 'bringing you back to heel'. It's a biochemical response which stimulates the libido. It's a NEED for the reestablishment of emotional intimacy. As Owl told you, you'll find it well documented in books and articles about Infidelity, and you'll find it in the testimony of fellow members here at LS. Now... you're right about one thing. This is a temporary response. Picture it as a re-visitation of the Infatuation Stage of your relationship. Just as in any other relationship, this stage will eventually subside. But, and it's a big "but"... this new Infatuation Stage allows you the chance to set new parameters of understanding and to build new relationship habits, which can sustain you both for the rest of your lives. You and I have gone back and forth on these sexless marriage threads for a year or more now. And still... you doubt what I've told you even though you're seeing it play out before your OWN EYES. She didn't know, Scriv. She didn't REALLY understand. I've told you before, from personal experience, it feels like a miracle when a woman finally 'gets' it. It's a "lightbulb moment". Heck, nothing you've told me that makes me believe she "gets it" now. So, I'm telling you... THIS is the time to help her see the correlation between sexual and emotional intimacy through YOUR eyes. THIS is the time to share the pain it's caused you while your were feeling shut out of her inner life and removed from her. THIS is the time when you explain what you've been feeling all this time. You need to understand each other, bud. That's the ONLY way forward. No - I'm listening! I'm not saying that your analysis is anything short of excellent. I also don't think she's deliberately calculating a response to get what she wants. I don't think she lacks integrity ot that she's not a nice person. It's not about that. I do think though that human nature is such that we value that which we don't have and hold in contempt that which is within easy reach. A few weeks ago I was within easy reach and in my place - therefore I was of no value. Now that someone else sees something in me - she thinks she sees it too. It's the classic human reaction - one that she's acting on now. I don't doubt that someday she may a lightbulb moment - but right now I think that acting too much on raw emotion for it to be anything like infatuation in the classic sense. Once the drivers for this emotion is gone - all that will be left is anger. I'm willing to work on things if she is. But I this may not work because I won't play the part of the classic Don-Juan style cheater while she plays the corresponding Oxygen channel variety betrayed houswife. I did my part in this marriage - and I did it well. I provided - well better than average. I was emotionally available and invested. I also am and always was a good father. I also have been a good listener and a giving person. If she chose to withrdraw herself from the role as a lover then I think I had the right to know why - especially given that I opened the discussion many, many times. While not as easily accepted - because there is no one event to point to like "aha, you cheated!", the act of withholding emotional and physical closeness while pretending there's nothing wrong is dishonest. I felt like I was being "had" - I think I had reason to think so. It's like riding the tandem bike, huffing and puffing - only to find that the person behind you quit pedaling - or only pedal a few strokes every time you bring it up. I guarantee you'll be pissed enough to get off the bike. I'm sure to the garden variety BS out there - this will all seem like justification. A reason to go out and have fun. And that's all part of the denial. My W has it too. She laments to me how she was such a perfect wife and why didn't I tell her that I was so unhappy - She accuses me of just wanting more sex - It's all idiocy of course - but she probably really believes it. She probably also believes that there was nothing wrong this whole time. As long as she thinks that - her only expectation of me can be for me to prostrate myself like a common sinner and beg for her forgiveness. That's going to be the biggest hurdle right now.
Owl Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Scriv- Not an attack...its something that you might give some thought to. I know you value LJ's opinions pretty highly here, so I'll look for her to confirm (or shoot me down) what I'm about to suggest to you. There's a common occurrence in WS's. It often starts just prior to the actual affair (especially if its an emotional one), and persists for quite some time even after the affair ends. Its called "re-writing marital history". Very commonly, as your focus changes from your wife to the OW, and on your own desires, your view of the history of your marriage changes. You see the entire past of the marriage in a much more negative light than you did prior to the affair. And you don't even realize it. My wife went through this. When she was 'busted' on d-day, her lament was "I haven't been happy in YEARS!!!!". But it was strange, because all four of my kids and I had been living in the same house with her that whole time...and couldn't see it. We could see that she'd been unhappy for the last year or so...when she'd started to get addicted to online gaming, and gave up on everything else. As we recovered...as she worked on reconciling...it went from "the last 10 years or so" to "the last couple of years", to finally down to "the last year or so"... She didn't realize she was doing it. NOW...I'm NOT saying that you're making all of this up. I completely believe that things have been bad in your marriage. But I'm suggesting that you're FOCUSED on the bad...and not able to see the good as clearly as you had in the past. I'd suggest that the 'truth' of the state of your marriage likely lies somewhere between what you see of it, and what your wife sees of it. Make any sense to you? I'll also suggest that your concern right now is ALSO standard "WS-script". The last thing that any WS I've seen wanted to believe was that the changes that the BS made were permanent. That they were even capable of making long-term changes. But what I'd mentioned earlier about this being the catalyst for change in your marraige really does apply here. Sometimes it DOES take something as extreme as cheating for the BS to truly get the depth of the WS's hurt. But, you can use this horrible situation as a catalyst to change your marriage into something far better, if you channel it the right way. Get a GOOD marriage counselor. One who can help you both deal with the aftereffects of the cheating, and one who can help you both rebuild a solid foundation for your NEW marriage. Part of that is setting clear boundaries in what you expect as permanent changes in your marriage. This includes your expectations of your spouse to meet your need for physical intimacy. Look at it this way...what have you got to lose by TRYING this? Divorce is far more expensive. And you can always do it later if counseling fails. But the thing is...the odds are VERY high that if you try to just "gloss past" the affair, and don't set boundaries for your expectations of meeting each others emotional needs...then all of this is a waste of time. Start looking for a marriage counselor...get a nuetral third party who can help BOTH of you work through all of this. And if it doesn't work...what have you lost? Some time...some money. But even if it fails, you'll walk away knowing you TRIED EVERYTHING. Again, bounce this all off of LJ if you think its nothing but fluff...see what she thinks about it. Thoughts?
Author Scrivdog Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Owl, Yeah - I'm familiar with the history re-write thing. That's not what's going on here. It's a fact that sex and intimacy dwindled to almost nothing. I t's also a fact that I tried to discuss it with her many times. The case you mention - your wife never gave you any indication that anything was wrong. So there was nothing for you to act on. You got sucker-pinched by the affair. My W knows I discussed this with the many times - even before there was any OW of any kind. The issues were most definitely real. I remember agonizing over my options before any OW and while we were going through yet another dry spell.
OldEurope Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I have read some of your posts and you seem to have a big down on BS's. I do not under stand women who will have any intimacy with married men but I will not judge them. The saying you need to walk a mile in some one's shoes before you can judge is a good one and you might like to think about it. You have no idea about what Scivdog's wife thinks or feels. She is acting out of hurt and betrayal by someone she loved and might even still love. When they have made some sort of breakthrough in their marriage at this time, a separation from each other is the last thing they need jmop Nor have you any exact idea what she thinks or feels. So.... Anyway, I don't have a "big down" on BS-es. I have a big down on human beings who aren't in control of themselves, who attack others physically, and who use sex and violence to manipulate. These are not actions of love, but of very unstable, low self esteem. The best she could do if she truly wants him is to leave him for a while or long while and let him come around to her. Acting like an out of control lunatic will not endear her to him. My words sound harsh, but they are tough-love harsh. To act out of self respect (as she should) will help her (and possibly her marriage) in the long run. We can sit here and talk psychobabble ad infinitum about "hysterical bonding" and "emotional wreckage" and the like and try to justify her reaction. But all that will ultimately not do anything for her. Only self control will And to OWL--Sorry, my reading does not include that nature of book. I stick to the classics, and there's nothing better to teach about human emotion and psychology than those. xo OE
Elena62 Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 If she chose to withrdraw herself from the role as a lover then I think I had the right to know why - especially given that I opened the discussion many, many times. the act of withholding emotional and physical closeness while pretending there's nothing wrong is dishonest. I felt like I was being "had" - I think I had reason to think so. She laments to me how she was such a perfect wife and why didn't I tell her that I was so unhappy - She accuses me of just wanting more sex - It's all idiocy of course - but she probably really believes it. She probably also believes that there was nothing wrong this whole time. As long as she thinks that - her only expectation of me can be for me to prostrate myself like a common sinner and beg for her forgiveness. That's going to be the biggest hurdle right now. Actually you do have a right to know why she withdrew herself as your lover. I did it in my marriage and my xH wanted to know why, so I told him! The roles reversed later on, and he withdrew as a lover, and when I wanted to know why, he didn't tell me. I don't think some people realise how emotionally draining that can be - and how it can affect you sense of self and worth within a marriage. So yes, wanting to know the answer to that - you do have a right to know IMO. And withholding physical and emotional closeness is not only dishonest, it's abandonment. But it's not a justification for having an affair. If anything, it's one of the problems in a mountain of problems compounded that leads to an affair. Your W? She probably really didn't believe there was anything wrong in the marriage at all - she was probably living the status quo and accepting her life as it was/is. It's called the comfort zone. I don't know if that is correct because she's not posted here - but that is what happened to me many years ago - 18 to be precise! And yes, your W will probably expect for you to beg forgiveness. Are you willing to do that even once to save your marriage? (Obviously not to have top do that over and over again - to do it within your personal boundaries etc.) I know my H wasn't ready to (in his words) ridicule himself by begging forgiveness, and to me it would have made so much difference if he would have shown remorse. Years later, and after counseling it still didn't work out for us - he truly didn't accept his part in the failure of our marriage, although I fully accepted I could have provided him more with the comfort he needed as a human being and my husband. I've been reading your posts closely. At first you were very blase about it all - I suspected a cover up of real character. But it seems your opening up. Are you ready to be honest to yourself, admit to all the things you could have done to prevent you from straying? Before you actually tackle the fundamental problems in your marriage? Think about it!
Ladyjane14 Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Scriv- Not an attack...its something that you might give some thought to. I know you value LJ's opinions pretty highly here, so I'll look for her to confirm (or shoot me down) what I'm about to suggest to you. There's a common occurrence in WS's. It often starts just prior to the actual affair (especially if its an emotional one), and persists for quite some time even after the affair ends. Its called "re-writing marital history". Very commonly, as your focus changes from your wife to the OW, and on your own desires, your view of the history of your marriage changes. You see the entire past of the marriage in a much more negative light than you did prior to the affair. And you don't even realize it. My wife went through this. When she was 'busted' on d-day, her lament was "I haven't been happy in YEARS!!!!". But it was strange, because all four of my kids and I had been living in the same house with her that whole time...and couldn't see it. We could see that she'd been unhappy for the last year or so...when she'd started to get addicted to online gaming, and gave up on everything else. As we recovered...as she worked on reconciling...it went from "the last 10 years or so" to "the last couple of years", to finally down to "the last year or so"... She didn't realize she was doing it. NOW...I'm NOT saying that you're making all of this up. I completely believe that things have been bad in your marriage. But I'm suggesting that you're FOCUSED on the bad...and not able to see the good as clearly as you had in the past. I'd suggest that the 'truth' of the state of your marriage likely lies somewhere between what you see of it, and what your wife sees of it. Make any sense to you? I'll also suggest that your concern right now is ALSO standard "WS-script". The last thing that any WS I've seen wanted to believe was that the changes that the BS made were permanent. That they were even capable of making long-term changes. But what I'd mentioned earlier about this being the catalyst for change in your marraige really does apply here. Sometimes it DOES take something as extreme as cheating for the BS to truly get the depth of the WS's hurt. But, you can use this horrible situation as a catalyst to change your marriage into something far better, if you channel it the right way. Get a GOOD marriage counselor. One who can help you both deal with the aftereffects of the cheating, and one who can help you both rebuild a solid foundation for your NEW marriage. Part of that is setting clear boundaries in what you expect as permanent changes in your marriage. This includes your expectations of your spouse to meet your need for physical intimacy. Look at it this way...what have you got to lose by TRYING this? Divorce is far more expensive. And you can always do it later if counseling fails. But the thing is...the odds are VERY high that if you try to just "gloss past" the affair, and don't set boundaries for your expectations of meeting each others emotional needs...then all of this is a waste of time. Start looking for a marriage counselor...get a nuetral third party who can help BOTH of you work through all of this. And if it doesn't work...what have you lost? Some time...some money. But even if it fails, you'll walk away knowing you TRIED EVERYTHING. Again, bounce this all off of LJ if you think its nothing but fluff...see what she thinks about it. Thoughts? I'm in agreement with you about the most of what you've written, Owl. Very insightful... as is your norm. But I don't think we have a "re-write" here. IOW, I think he's got his facts right in terms of history, and maybe there's a bit more pessimism in his mental imagery of his wife than is strictly warrented, but otherwise... his experience sounds very similar to mine. I believe him when he says he's tried to resolve the problem. Women who don't 'get it'... just don't 'get it'. It requires that we throw out the old "stinking thinking" and adopt a new thought process. There was NOTHING my husband could say or do to get through to me until I was willing to do give credence to the idea that maybe I'd been completely WRONG in my understanding of men and sex. If memory serves, Scriv didn't meet somebody and get swept along emotionally. He made a calculated decision to supplement his sex-life outside the marriage. Sure, he likes the OW. She's apparently a swell gal and a good sport from his perspective. But she's compartmentalized. He might not want to hurt her feelings, but that doesn't mean she's of any integral importance in his. He's been on a slippery slope all this long while, of course... because alot of guys fall into that trap and end up emotionally embroiled. I believe him when he says that's not the case though. Where I see the most trouble is that when we consider Harley's Three States of Mind in Marriage... Scriv is apparently still in "Withdrawal". His wife is in "Conflict". So, there's a good chance that if he goes ahead and engages with her... they can find their way back to "Intimacy". He's going to have to put himself out there though. And he doesn't want to do that, because he'll have to admit that he was WRONG to have sexual relations outside the marriage, and even scarier... he'll have to put his heart on the line again. You can't get hurt if you just don't care. In "Withdrawal"... you just don't care.
nadiaj2727 Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 TC, that was a really cruel thing to say and uncalled for. Sometimes I wonder why you say stuff like this, especially since you preach about people respecting others, people bashing others, and yet you feel free to do it when you please. Owl has been through alot and you have no right to belittle his pain and what he went through with his wife. I agree with you WWIU. TC is being unnecessarily cruel to Owl and I have no idea why. Sometimes her posts are very kind and helpful, other times she seems to spit venom for some indecipherable reason. I find it sad. TC maybe you should just not say something if you have nothing nice to say? It's not fair to act like you were hurt more than Owl... you have no idea how much he hurt. And it's not fair to act like you're a better person than he is because you chose to walk away from infidelity after you were hurt (and, from what I've read, participate in even more... I hope this was before you were hurt by the very same thing and not after?!?!) and he chose to stay and repair his marriage. And you do always tell people to respect others but you can disrespect Owl when it's convenient for you, when you don't like his point of view. I don't get it either WWIU!
nadiaj2727 Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I realize you will say this has nothing to do with me and I am not sticking to the original post etc. Well sorry but sometimes you feel the need to defend someone who's being stomped on for no apparent reason... but I know Owl can do that for himself. And I think that if you start something on a public forum, you should expect that other people are going to comment on it. But anyway I'm out now... back to the regular scheduled program.
nadiaj2727 Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 The best she could do if she truly wants him is to leave him for a while or long while and let him come around to her. Acting like an out of control lunatic will not endear her to him. My words sound harsh, but they are tough-love harsh. To act out of self respect (as she should) will help her (and possibly her marriage) in the long run. We can sit here and talk psychobabble ad infinitum about "hysterical bonding" and "emotional wreckage" and the like and try to justify her reaction. But all that will ultimately not do anything for her. Only self control will OE Yes but this thread isn't started by SD's wife nor is it really about her. It's about SD. Why not advise him on how to handle his wife's behavior, instead of trying to give advice to his wife, who isn't even here? No offense but I doubt she wants your advice about her self- control and self-respect etc,, I'm sure she would present the story a completely different way if she was here to do so. But she is not here asking for your advice and she is not here to defend herself or give her side of the story (really all we have is SD's side which to me sounds muddled). We do have what infidelity experts say is normal behavior after finding out you've been betrayed. If you want to call that psychobabble or not read about it because it's not good enough for your literary tastes or whatever, then good, but then you are not really in the position to discuss something you haven't read. That's all pretty irrelevant because the fact remains this is her reaction to being cheated on, which was SD's choice. Now SD has a choice about how to react to it... is he going to help her heal and help his marriage heal, or is he going to leave? Right now it sounds like his choice is to stay. So it doesn't really matter what you think about his wife's self-esteem.
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