Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Weeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll... they were not actually offered for your amusement but not surprising that you interpret them thus. I'm serious. That stuff doesn't even happen in the movies. And movies are *all* about fantasies! and I know you are serious too. Which means we have a disconnect. What else is new in this world? A man and a woman have a disconnect.
luvstarved Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 That is soooo different. A stranger in a bar making a move is not anywhere the same as a woman you've been fantasizing about for months making a move. And maybe...just maybe...this stranger was not "VERY ATTRACTIVE"
luvstarved Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I'm serious. That stuff doesn't even happen in the movies. And movies are *all* about fantasies! and I know you are serious too. Which means we have a disconnect. What else is new in this world? A man and a woman have a disconnect. Oh there is definitely a disconnect because I don't even know what "stuff" you are talking about. If you mean the scenario I described in which you declare your mutual lust and then return freshly focused to your schoolwork, you're right, it doesn't happen. That was my point. If you mean the scenarios in which psychological havoc results from rationalized selfish indulgences, I assure you, they happen all the time. If you mean someone on their knees purring over your superior manhood, um, those flicks are in the "special room" of the store...
2sunny Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 ICBT may i ask how old you and your wife are and how long you have been married?
Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 ICBT may i ask how old you and your wife are and how long you have been married? me 33, w 35, 3.2, 1.4. FWIW OW is a very young 25 I believe. Why?
2sunny Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 just wondering... what does FWIW mean? as a side note - there must be some sense of confinement when kids are young and taking up your wife's attention and energy. no? how long have you been married?
Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Oh there is definitely a disconnect because I don't even know what "stuff" you are talking about. If you mean the scenario I described in which you declare your mutual lust and then return freshly focused to your schoolwork, you're right, it doesn't happen. That was my point. If you mean the scenarios in which psychological havoc results from rationalized selfish indulgences, I assure you, they happen all the time. If you mean someone on their knees purring over your superior manhood, um, those flicks are in the "special room" of the store... I meant 1! Maybe I wasn't clear. However that was my point too. My entendre for the abstract.
Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 just wondering... what does FWIW mean? as a side note - there must be some sense of confinement when kids are young and taking up your wife's attention and energy. no? how long have you been married? For what it's worth. I forgot to add, dated 2 years, engaged 1, married 5 I think (I have to do the math in my head.) Absolutely. I think I wrote in a previous post that I expected decreased sex with kids, I think it's normal and it is not a problem. I don't really know when the frequency is supposed to ramp up though. That is why I'm not upset with the frequency. But the quality isn't there, and the vast majority of the time the interest isn't there either (I think).
BlueEyedGirl Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 ItCanBeTough, I'm always curious about what part "looks" play in this. In other words how do OW and your W compare in looks department?
norajane Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 For what it's worth. I forgot to add, dated 2 years, engaged 1, married 5 I think (I have to do the math in my head.) Absolutely. I think I wrote in a previous post that I expected decreased sex with kids, I think it's normal and it is not a problem. I don't really know when the frequency is supposed to ramp up though. That is why I'm not upset with the frequency. But the quality isn't there, and the vast majority of the time the interest isn't there either (I think). Have you and your wife made any attempt to communicate about your sex issues? Try to rev up your romantic life, and thus rev up your sex life? Imagine if you put half the energy into trying to turn your wife on and flirt with her as you do with this other woman...
2sunny Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 me 33, w 35, 3.2, 1.4. FWIW OW is a very young 25 I believe. Why? ICBT - i never asked about the OW - the whole point of my posts are to get you NOT to think of her - but to have you consider the best interest of you and your wife and the commitment to the marriage. can you stop with the one track mind and thoughts? if not, i will be happy to put my energy somewhere useful/productive...
Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 ItCanBeTough, I'm always curious about what part "looks" play in this. In other words how do OW and your W compare in looks department? W is 8/10, OW is 7/10. My W is good looking! Looks does play a role. I wouldn't be doing all of this if the OW was a 4/10.
Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Have you and your wife made any attempt to communicate about your sex issues? Try to rev up your romantic life, and thus rev up your sex life? Imagine if you put half the energy into trying to turn your wife on and flirt with her as you do with this other woman... Oh yes. I think I wrote about this to some degree in an earlier post. It is a source of frustration for me because she kind of shells up whenever I want to talk about it. She doesn't like talking about our sex life in detail. And it's affected us. For instance, I used to masturbate in front of her while things were going well, and it turned me on and it turned her on. Now...I don't want her to see because it makes me feel dirty, like I have to do this to get my urges out because I can't do it with her. I get embarrassed. I know there is a lot to talk about and I've suggested therapy and she's luke warm on it. I feel like I'm in a difficult place.
Author ItCanBeTough Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) can you stop with the one track mind and thoughts? if not, i will be happy to put my energy somewhere useful/productive... And now I shall ask you..what is ICBT? So I presume you mean stop with the one track mine and thoughts about the OW. That's why I wrote here Sunny, it's hard to stop this. Not impossible though. And recall if you can that my wife and kids are with her parents in CA, soon to be going to hawaii for a vacation while I stay at school to study for the national board exams. Oh...look at this. OW just sent me an email about an hour ago. Just an experience she had at an airport, nothing suggestive in the email at all. But OW brought up this dude she is boffing again. I tell ya, if this continues my level of disgust will completely overwhelm any feelings of lust I currently possess. Oh...ICBT = my handle ItCanBeTough. Edited March 24, 2008 by ItCanBeTough make an edit
2sunny Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Oh yes. I think I wrote about this to some degree in an earlier post. It is a source of frustration for me because she kind of shells up whenever I want to talk about it. She doesn't like talking about our sex life in detail. And it's affected us. For instance, I used to masturbate in front of her while things were going well, and it turned me on and it turned her on. Now...I don't want her to see because it makes me feel dirty, like I have to do this to get my urges out because I can't do it with her. I get embarrassed. I know there is a lot to talk about and I've suggested therapy and she's luke warm on it. I feel like I'm in a difficult place. maybe consider individual counseling for you... as i see this as your perception not necessarily hers. just because a partner doesn't intend to talk about it - doesn't mean they are not willing to experiment when it comes time for the action. especially if you spend your effort flirting with her in anticipation of intimacy. it never hurts to romance a gal - even if it entails watching the kids or doing the dishes or laundry so she can take a bath or do something that will make her appreciate you when the mood strikes.
whichwayisup Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I know what you are saying. I've thought about that at great length, putting myself in a position where I might make a stupid mistake. That does imply that she would make a stupid mistake, but my mistake would be leagues worse than hers. Yes, because you're the one with the ring on your finger, not the OW. Ofcourse she knows you're married, yet she is disrespecting your marriage and your wife by flirting with you. Oh and trust me, she KNOWS you want her just as much as she wants you. She's not stupid, she knows the game.. That's why it's very dangerous to discuss feelings, lust, etc with her. Let alone having 'sexual discussions' about her personal life or your personal life. Don't, it will open to the door to other discussions which puts you in a bad place. I have actually told my wife about her, and I told her that I went out a few nights ago with her and her friends to a bar. But, did you tell your wife you're completely lusting after her? Did you tell her that you want the OW to know that you want her and you want to know for sure if the OW is lusting after you? My guess is no. You cannot compare your wife flirting (your below quote) to what you are doing with this OW. You are allowing yourself to become semi-obsessed with her, thinking and stuff...Meanwhile your wife goes out with some girlfriends and flirts in the bar with afew OM. She doesn't know those men, you know the OW. You're more or less or pretty close to having an emotional affair with the OW. I hope this makes sense to you.. You "bonding" with another woman is disrespecting your wife, your marriage vows and your whole family unit. This isn't just innocent fun flirting, you don't want to see what's around the corner - yet you don't know how close you are to putting yourself in that situation where something could happen. One drink, two drinks...You and the OW sit close to eachother..Feeling some chemistry..Oops! Next thing you know there's some touching and abit of kissing. Oh yeah, did I mention the drinks? Again, don't spend one on one time with her, don't socialize with her as much and detach yourself. Focus that energy into your wife. Not two weeks earlier my wife went out with her girlfriends while I babysat and she told me she had a great time, and a few old dudes (20 yrs older than her) were hitting on her and her friends at the bar. She thought it was cute and amusing and so did I. I unequivocally trust her judgment and she will never do anything like cheat on me. Now lusting over another guy...I suppose if it happened for several months it would bother me. It's like an extended fantasy. When she does yoga at the gym it's always with this hot instructor and I think it's kind of funny. I've met the guy and frankly I agree with my wife! Again, big difference between fun flirting in a bar, and what you're doing with the OW. You see this and have acknowledged this, so yes, your wife would be hurt, pissed off and feeling like WTF is going on if she knew what you were really thinking about the OW. Thank you for your opinion. I'm curious...what do you think would happen if it came out in the open? I have been trying to predict my emotional reaction and I believe it would be favorable, but I think I *want* it to be favorable. I also think that the so-called "peak" of flirting might be on the downswing, so I could just ride this out for several more months, perhaps let it run it's course like a slow death. You don't bring it up. If the OW brings it up, all you have put her in her place and stop flirting behaviour. And, let her know that you love your wife and have no intention of cheating. Ask her to respect that and set up boundries that NEITHER of you will cross, ever. This has happened to me in the past too. It happens about once a year. A woman and I invariably flirt with each other and after many months it fizzles. But there is a period of time where I spend a lot of time thinking about that women. Even now I wonder about their emotions and their thoughts. Because even though there is some flirting, you never really know what's going on their heads, right? So, is this OW different than any of the others? Sometimes it's just best to leave it alone and not really know what someone is thinking... I appreciate all of the comments on this board but I'm beginning to think that all MM who end up having an affair start down this slippery slope the way I've described it and UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES cannot get out of it. It's like my fate is sealed. I don't think she wants a relationship. Certainly not marriage. When I said "work" above I shied away from what I really do to make so identity could not be culled from this website. We are both in school where you earn your MD after 4 years so I see her, along with all of my other classmates all the time and I study 60-70 hours a week. She is a few years out of college and worked for several years before going back to school. That's why I don't see my wife and kids all the time. You have no idea what she is capable of. I mean, if the OW has feelings for you that could bite you in the bum. She could get too emotionally detached, pull a bunny boiler on you one day. Hey, never say never...People do crazy things when they're not thinking straight or pushed past their emotional limit. Best to keep that door closed. Forever. *Make time for your wife. Special time. Get a babysitter atleast once a week and be alone with her.* Annieo, it takes two to tango, and that's why it didn't happen. And I do think about my wife and kids all the time, that's why I'm confident that I won't cheat. Why is that so f*cking hard to believe? Because every other guy in my position invariably, at some point in the future, f*cks up and cheats? Many MM think about their wives, yet they still cheat. AGAIN, don't PUT yourself IN that situation where you are tempted and won't be able to say no. I'm curious, have you been the victim of cheating? Or any other infidelity, scandalous, inappropriate behavior, or humiliating relationship with a man? All men are not created equal. And I will lay you 1,000,000 to 1 odds on a bet in Las Vegas (and I'll let you pick the wager) that I will not cheat on my wife. Only way you won't cheat on your wife is, stop thinking about this woman so much. Turn it off! Stop fantasizing about her, stop allowing your mind to wonder what she is thinking about you. WHO CARES!! You are married and have a wife and children. Remember your vows. Men and women CAN have platonic friendships. This woman is NOT your friend and you are NOT hers. It's a little cat and mouse game, an ego feed and she shouldn't be a part of your life OUTSIDE of work on such a personal level. No one on here can 'guess' what she has in mind.. Why don't you ask her? Isn't that the point of this? Of course I can't probe her mind. That's why I've considered asking her in the first place, about the whole "want me" thing. However after reading the multitude of posts I don't think I'm going to do it. What about these long conversations about sex? Put yourself in her shoes. I know you don't know her at all but just indulge me for a moment. Stop having long conversations about sex. That's disrespecting your wife, and your marriage. It's just inappropriate talk you shouldn't be having with another woman because of the circumstances between you two. DO NOT ASK HER what she thinks or feels about you. BlueEyedGirl, two similar situations like you proposed have happened to me in the past, while married. One time a group of my buddies (some single) and I went to the bar and we all started talking to a group of girls. After a little bit of time one of them put her hand on my knee. I leaned away from her, smiled with the suggestion that I know what happened, kind of like "Thanks but no thanks" and walked to another part of the bar. Lastly, if my wife had extended fantasies with one of her workmates, yea I think that would bother me. Actually, I would be thinking what is the problem with our relationship that you have to get something from someone else BINGO! Obviously some needs of yours aren't being met. Could be the long hours away from your wife and you need to feel intimacy and spend more time with your wife. MAKE THE TIME. Call her during the day when you get afew minutes. Instead of lusting and thinking of the OW, think of bringing your wife home flowers with a note saying "I love you". By thinking so much of the OW, you're detaching bit by bit from your wife and replacing her with the OW. Make sense? Glad to hear that it WOULD bother you if your wife was doing what you're doing now. .. IS that enough to make you stop your behaviour though? Or are you going to continue this cat and mouse ego feed game with the OW? This is your choice. Honestly? I would like to hear that you'll atleast THINK about backing off and not spending time with the OW. Focus on you, your wife, your kids, your work etc...Other friends, family and relatives. BUILD your life surrounding those who love you (WIFE AND KIDS) not the OW and if she wants to f**k you or not. I'm most curious about a few things I originally wrote. Why would a SW want to quickly become close friends with a MM? I don't think the opposite happens with as much frequency. Read some threads in OW/OM section. You'll find some answers to this question. Bottomline is - IS your marriage and what you have with your wife MORE important that some OW who may want to f**k you? Is your ego more important than your family?
jmargel Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 The reason why you think she wants you is because of the challenge. Women love challenge. It's an ego boost to her that you have her attention. As a married man myself, I can relate to how it might feel good to have someone 'interested' in you, however when all said in done it is your wife that has the commitment towards you that this OW could never give. I've had a few women get to the point of what they wanted since I've been married and although it's flattering and wonder what it would be like, I know that it could never live up to the fantasy that your imagination can dream up. In reality all that will happen is hurt, disrespect and disappointment. Disappointment that it did not live up to what you though it would be, and disappointment in yourself that you let yourself get this low. You don't know her bad side, you only know what she shows you. However what you are doing is emotionally cheating, because you are trying to explore the 'other side' while trying to convince yourself your not. It's a easy thing to fall into and you are rather deep into it before you know it. You don't know the true value of your wife until you lose her, and trust me if you think you would never lose her then you are taking her for granted. You've become too comfortable in your marriage, and just because she said 'I do' doesn't mean it's forever when you mistreat her like this. There are plenty of guys willing to take your place in regards to your wife. Don't pursue this anymore, let it go. Put the energy and excitement into your wife and what you will get in return is much greater than you can imagine.
BlueEyedGirl Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 I agree that this is an ego boost for the OW too. I'm single and have had few longer-term flirting situations with married men but never took it further. It felt very flattering to me that I could sense they sexually desired me more than the wife (as bad as this sounds). It was also flattering that I knew these guys weren't serial cheaters and to see them so tempted that they were prepared to risk all they hold dear just to sleep with me. Even if it's one night stand - I feel that any physical infidelity taints a relationship forever (I don't beleive in purely emotional affairs). I'm just trying to give a prospective on the single woman's thoughts, she is getting as much of an ego boost from this as you are.
luvstarved Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Well, I have probably said enough already but I did want to say that, although nobody here can tell you what the OW's intentions are wrt continually bringing up her f88kbuddy in her communications with you, I certainly do believe that there is an agenda attached to it. As I hinted before, I also think that if you were able to analyze it objectively, having the details of body language and specific comments, you probably WOULD be able to determine what that agenda is. Some of the hidden messages sent through this sort of talk that I have been witness to are "I want you to know that I am perfectly able to have an emotionally detached sexual relationship" (clue: is her demeanor flippant about it?) "I want you to know that I am already f**king someone else and I am going to continually remind you of it so that you don't get any bright ideas about me" (clue: accompanied by subdued body language) "I want you to know that I am already f**king someone else and I am going to continually remind you of it so that you stay interested in me because, frankly, I am enjoying my power to consume your thoughts" (clue: accompanied by flirtatious body language) "I want you to know that I am in an emotionally empty relationship so that I can find out whether you might have the potential to offer to swoop in and save me from all that. I want to know if you have real feelings for me or if you just want to f**k me" (clue: accompanied by beseeching eye contact and requests for your opinion on the matter) "I am conducting an extended survey of married men to find out which ones I can inspire to cheat" (clue: mixed signals galore, seemingly interested one minute, bored and detached the next) Here is the version that you should operate with: "My telling you all of this presents a threat to your marriage and if you respond to it by encouraging it, then in the end, both your wife and I will lose respect for you and you're going to come out smelling like a huge ass" Well that is all I can think of for now. Hope it helps.
Starla Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 ICBT - i have to agree with every word WWIU has said!! you seem to care too much about this girl and what she thinks...why do you care?? why do you feel this need to know if she finds you attractive or not? you have reiterated that you are attractive...i wonder if there is insecurity there, and you feel the need to have a pretty younger woman find you attractive as you are now living the life of an ordinary, run-of-the-mill family man (which is actually something to be proud of and something to be nurtured and celebrated). this girl no doubt knows you find her attractive, and enjoys teasing you and using her feminine wiles lol to lure you...but at the same time, i wonder if she doesn't also find you a bit creepy. the whole 'married man wanting to experience the single life again' is slightly weird. it is unusual to talk about another man for 3 hours - i would only do that if i felt anxious. once the drinks were flowing however, she may have felt more relaxed. if i were you, i would cool it with this girl. so what if she finds you attractive? big deal - you're married and that is that. put it to bed, and concentrate on the wife you say you love.
smartgirl Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 You have gotten a lot of good advice about this situation, so I don't really need to add. But I want to address something you said in your original post. You said you just wanted to know if she felt the same way so you could enjoy the fantasy. That isn't the way it works. I would say that about 98% of the time, once one of the people (usually the woman) tells the other (usually the man) that she is attracted to him, fantasizes about him, or anything similar the intensity of the attraction goes up about a hundred-fold. It is now out in the open and becomes its own topic of conversation. Then, almost inevitably, the two people begin trying to rationalize why they should take advantage of this amazing attraction. People begin to believe that the attraction means something important and that they shouldn't die without having this experience. Often, one or both assumes they will have sex a few times and "get it out of their system." But that doesn't happen either. They keep going at it until something blows up. You think you have more control than you do. My H wound up in an affair on the same road you are travelling now. One of the things he told our MC was that he now knows he has to avoid situations at work where he spends time alone with a woman where conversations can turn personal. If you go to the marriagebuilders.com site and look up "how affairs start" you will also see your situation detailed. Don't get too cocky about how much control you think you have and you should absolutely stop socializing with this OW. BTW, she is already your OW if only emotionally.
twice_shy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 A few quick factoids - my wife is the best woman in the world and I love her. Apparantly not that much. The only thing I'm not all that fond of is our sex life, but we are both incredibly busy and we have two kids. But even before we had kids, the sex life wasn't that great. - I am in control of my emotions. I won't cheat on my wife. I'm not stupid. then why post this story? If you wouldn't cheat on your wife, why would it even pop in your head to log on and type this out? My question: Ultimately I want to know if this other woman *wants me*. Oh for Pete's sake, grow up! Because I totally want her. It's my little fantasy. I can't have her, and even if I could workplace relationships are such a no-no. But do you know how nice it feels to know that someone wants to $@#^ you? I think this woman is saying to herself "I want (to marry) a man just like him", or even better..."I want (to marry) him." I'm thinking "I want take her to bed right now!" If she wants me, and I want her, and it's out in the open, then I think I'll be happy and at peace. Again, grow up. If it got out in the open, I can guarantee you, with the mindset you have, you will cheat. Just knowing if she wants to #%^ you isn't gonna be enough to satisfy your ego. For I know that I've "gotten the girl." When I was single, the prize for going out to a bar is to flirt up a girl and take her home. Because that is (one form of) validation of your attractiveness. But I can't take this girl home. So I'm looking for some concrete confirmation. That's all. Thats all eh? Hmmm, you say that as if there is nothing wrong...."That's all". Ok, if that is "all", then tell your wife about your little fantasy about your co-worker and tell her you want to find out if this co-worker wants to f##k you. Just hope she doesn't use an iron frying pan to hit you over the head with. T-Fal is much lighter.
Lookingforward Posted March 25, 2008 Posted March 25, 2008 That was a "perfect" post - let's hope it sinks in
White Flower Posted March 25, 2008 Posted March 25, 2008 I think she caught on, if she's smart, that you'll never leave your wife, so she went on and on about that F buddy of hers to let you know she can play that game, too. Be careful or you'll end up in bed, in love, and in a terrible state of limbo. And you're right--there is no such thing as unemotional sex.
IpAncA Posted March 25, 2008 Posted March 25, 2008 Does the W know that you and your "lady friend" were alone together and whatnot? I do think that if you choose to continue with this behavior and way of thinking, you will end up doing something and another thread will pop up saying something like "what the heck have I done?" And then I'll post, what did you expect? Who cares why your "lady friend" talked with your for three hours and what she did this and that. Your investing WAY too much on this. You know why you went with her and you know why she spend time with you. What more do you want, this person to say "take me now?" JMO
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