Why are women really afraid to bring up "the talk"?

[Covonia]

You'd be surprised. In the heat of the moment, many people do what they want based on assumption and worry about that stuff later.

 

Of course, but I didn't, I felt it was too important to just go through with it, we waited about a two months into our relationship before we had any form of sexual encounter and before we started, we talked (not in grave detail) about what we wanted to try and used the first several occasions as an experiment to see what we both liked, it was surprisingly successful, until she kept asking questions about 'if i enjoyed myself etc'. It was quite evident, because I could have filled a few reservoirs.

[Trialbyfire]

If things are going well why do you even need to talk where you're heading? I understand in relationships talk is needed, where have I said it isn't? But constant discussions like where are you heading? What's happening? will rile the most patient person up.

No where has anyone suggested that there be constant discussions.

 

In my case, I was clearly interested in this girl, we had a lot of common ground, we enjoyed each other's company and the dates had been successful, so why did she decide to force the issue? It was clear as day that we were gonna end up together, it was just a case of letting it happen naturally, instead of forcing the issue (which she did, by trying to talk, when there was nothing to talk about).

Clear as day to whom? Apparently she didn't feel it was clear. Keep in mind that while things are obvious to the specific person, the other party doesn't have a crystal ball.

 

Communication is needed, I agree, but right at the start when you are just dating, getting to know each other etc? It's a bit excessive to me and quite off putting. If you have relationship problems, then yes, a half hour discussion or a four hour discussion might well be needed, sure things need to be sorted out, that's evident. But why get all series when dating is supposed to be fun? Where you are in the getting to know stage, I hardly want to get all series on dating scene. I want some light hearted discussion, about interests etc, not ridiculous questions of "when are we going to become an item?". The way I see it is, if it happens naturally then fantastic, but forcing the issue just doesn't go down well with me.

I hate to say this but you appear to be exhibiting signs of the classic flake syndrome, leaving things as ambiguous as possible, so there's room for a bolt-hole.

 

I can open up, but why would I do that when I've just started dating someone or have just gotten into a relationship with a girl? I prefer to deal with my emotions alone, and if I can't cope with them, I might open up just a little bit. I'm not going to ring my gf up and spill my heart to her, because I'm not sure what's happening, or because I'm insecure and needy (I'm not any of these things by the way). Tomorrow brings another day, after all, so live for today and worry about tomorrow when tomorrow arrives.

That's your preference, to deal with your emotions alone.

 

In keeping emotions to yourself, you maintain power and control over the relationship. This is the reason why many men have difficulty with sharing emotions. They're afraid of opening up, therefore maintaining the upperhand.

 

Then StarGazer's friends should know where they stand, if after three months you aren't in a relationship with that man (in question) you'd have to think we'll prehaps he just sees me as sexual partner and break things off? Why carry on sleeping with someone, if you aren't sure where you stand and want more from the man? Do you honestly think a man is going to refuse sex with a girl who is making herself more than willing to engage?

I'm uncertain if Star's friends are in a relationship or not. It's reliant on what Star means by "the talk". Best to let her define that.

 

Beyond that, so you're suggesting that anytime anyone gets those feelings of uncertainty, to dump away? Isn't it more adult, to try to discuss it first, to find out if the issue lays within yourself or externally?

 

And to answer your question on clarity, you can clarify something through actions even better than through word of mouth and actions to me are always more sincere than word of mouth. It should be obvious to any woman or man when someone is into you. If a woman doesn't know when a man is into her, and then panics and starts being blowing things out of proportion then she instantly tarnish's what could be a successful relationship.

Once again, what actions? Actions of still wanting to have sex with her? Some actions are meaningless, in that the depth of emotion, isn't displayed through sex. If discussion ruins a relationship for you, you're going to have many ruined relationships in your life.

 

Myself personally, I won't waste my life guessing or assuming. For me, it boils down to "piss or get off the pot".

[StartingOver07]

I'm with Touche and NoraJane on this one. I have never initiated the talk. Not because I was afraid of what I would learn, but because it just wasn't necessary.

 

If the r/s is right, you know it. Not from any one "talk" but from all the talking and interacting you do on a natural basis. And yes, backed up by action.

 

SG - I believe your friends each know what the deal is in their situation, just as you did in yours. If they were to put aside their hopes and just listen to their guts, I am pretty certain they would have their answers without the need for a talk.

[allina]

So basically if you have to ask "where is this going"

Your answer is "nowhere"

[sarayanna]

I've been giving this some thought because it does seem that many women (myself included) WANT to know where they stand, yet refuse to initiate the conversation.

 

For me, it's not out of FEAR of LOSING or freaking him out in some way, it's because I'm not exactly sure myself and I feel if I need to bring things up, I'd better be damned sure of what I want the outcome to be. Because to me, there are only two outcomes to that scenario; it either leads to ramping up the relationship and heading in to long-term commitment or you will find out you are not in the same place and have the relationship turn south.

 

Just because you are CURIOUS where you stand does not make you weak or desperate and it doesn't necessarily mean you are trying to trap some poor guy into a long-term commitment. It is natural to wonder how someone feels about you even if you aren't sure yourself.

 

Currently, I am in a solid relationship now and everyday it is clearer to me that my guy is really into me, although at times I do admit to being curious about where I stand more fully. However, the last relationship I was in, I initiated "the talk" too soon and found out the guy was really in love with me and had been dying to tell me but was unsure of where he stood. Of course, I had no clue how I felt and was completely unprepared for a long-term commitment discussion. It was an awful, naive mistake on my part and we broke up about 6 weeks later.

 

Anyway, IMO it is natural to be curious and the fear of bringing up the topic could be related to ambiguity about your own feelings and a general happiness with the way things are going, not weakness or insecurity.

[Star Gazer]

No where has anyone suggested that there be constant discussions.

 

Right. We're talking about ONE talk here.

 

I'm uncertain if Star's friends are in a relationship or not. It's reliant on what Star means by "the talk". Best to let her define that.

 

I suppose my friends (as well as myself) don't know/say/believe we are actually "in a relationship" until/unless we have that talk. I've been in situations where I thought I was in one, and it turned out I really wasn't. I've been in situations where I didn't think I was in one, but it turned out the guy REALLY thought we were.

 

Without communication, what do you have? A whole lot of assumptions. Without "the talk" (to obviously go along with the actions), how can anyone truly know where they stand? Like you said, TBF, no one has a crystal ball.

[Trialbyfire]

Hey Star, for you as well as me, we both need communicators. If someone feels threatened by "the talk", they're not the personality type, we need. As expressed previously, this doesn't make the guy an arsehole and us, angels. It's incompatible personality types.

[Star Gazer]

Hey Star, for you as well as me, we both need communicators. If someone feels threatened by "the talk", they're not the personality type, we need. As expressed previously, this doesn't make the guy an arsehole and us, angels. It's incompatible personality types.

 

True. I suppose those who "just know" without any sort of conversation need someone else who "just knows."

[Ariadne]

True. I suppose those who "just know" without any sort of conversation need someone else who "just knows."

 

The way that you "just know," is because the guy who loves you starts telling you that he wants to spend every moment with you.

 

Talks about the future with you.

 

Talks about having children with you.

 

Plans vacations with you to places you mentioned you wanted to visit and pays for most of the things.

 

Considers you when making plans and invites you everywhere, especially to family gatherings etc etc.

 

A guy that doesn't want anything to do with you will never talk about the future, won't include you in his plans, won't make you a priority, wants to see you just to have sex maybe a dinner at the most, etc.

[Covonia]

1) No where has anyone suggested that there be constant discussions.

2) Clear as day to whom? Apparently she didn't feel it was clear. Keep in mind that while things are obvious to the specific person, the other party doesn't have a crystal ball.

 

3) I hate to say this but you appear to be exhibiting signs of the classic flake syndrome, leaving things as ambiguous as possible, so there's room for a bolt-hole.

 

4) That's your preference, to deal with your emotions alone.

 

5) In keeping emotions to yourself, you maintain power and control over the relationship. This is the reason why many men have difficulty with sharing emotions. They're afraid of opening up, therefore maintaining the upperhand.

 

6) I'm uncertain if Star's friends are in a relationship or not. It's reliant on what Star means by "the talk". Best to let her define that.

 

7) Beyond that, so you're suggesting that anytime anyone gets those feelings of uncertainty, to dump away? Isn't it more adult, to try to discuss it first, to find out if the issue lays within yourself or externally?

 

 

8) Once again, what actions? Actions of still wanting to have sex with her? Some actions are meaningless, in that the depth of emotion, isn't displayed through sex. If discussion ruins a relationship for you, you're going to have many ruined relationships in your life.

 

9) Myself personally, I won't waste my life guessing or assuming. For me, it boils down to "piss or get off the pot".

 

1) You're right, no one has mentioned constant discussions, but from my experience one discussion soon led to another and then another, thankfully I managed to put a stop to it, by using actions to suppress her doubts and assumptions.

 

2) She didn't read my messages because she was ignorant, she wanted someone to explain to her what was happening instead of her using her initiative and patience to see what happened. She lives by rules, rigid rules and I live on impluse and spontaneity and even if I had sat down and discussed with her where I thought the relationship would head (even if I didn't know myself) it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

 

3) I'm not flaky at all, I expressed my feelings for her through actions and intimacy instead of word of mouth, for most women a long kiss whilst being held seals the deal, but I guess there are women who want that and then want it in writing and want it through word of mouth.

 

4) I tend to tackle my emotions to myself, because I know how much of a drain it is on a relationship, all relationships have there up's and there down's, but running to my gf everytime I'm feeling lonesome and blue just doesn't help the relationship. If I'm really struggling and my problems are noticeable is when I'll go and 'talk' about them. That's hardly me not being open, that's just me being independent and standing on my own two feet.

 

5) Not every emotion problem a person has is confined in just the relationship, I had problems with my friend during the relationship and decided to keep that to myself, it served nothing to relationship and would only waste time and energy that could be best spend doing something positive and something which would make a bf and gf happy. There's no upperhand you speak of, some men are more sensitive than other's and believe me, I can be as sensitive as anyone, but I've learnt that if you want something done right in life, you have to do it on your own. Again this could be down to the fact I'm fiercely independent and will only seek help and advice when I truly need it.

 

6) I agree, but it seems as though they've offered their 'men' everything on a plate in the vain hope that a relationship can be formed which is nonsense. Men like a challenge, I find it quite distasteful when a woman throws herself at my feet. It's like "have some self respect for yourself and be a woman'. Why would you have sex with someone whom you desire a relationship with? It's not an effective method of keeping a man interested long enough to forge a relationship. It's a foolish idea.

 

7) If you can't get clarification from someone via conversation or action then you should break things off. It's also more adult not to cling onto something that's unlikely to happen. It's a bit like communism really, a fabulous idea on paper, when it's been implemented on society it causes nothing more than ambiguity, carnage and ill-feeling.

 

8) If you want to show someone you love them why not show them? For example, with my ex girlfriend I showed her I valued her highly, she even admitted so, for example on her birthday I took her out to a nice restaurant (for which I had to do every hour of overtime god sent my way) I then went down market and took her for a nice walk along a canal in god knows where and then walked her home and even carried her when her stupid heels were making her feet uncomfortable.

 

I used to help her with assignments and stayed up with her until the early hours of the morning helping her, she also did a lot for me, but she was a girl who needed constant reassurance and attention and always wanted clarification and in the end when I didn't feel the need to she broke up with me. I'm all for discussion providing it's not continuous and not at the beginning of the relationship. You don't seem to be able to decipher between letting a relationship happen naturally and forcing the issue, you seem to think that words are better than actions, and the truth is I find it easier to express my feelings for someone through action than mere word. To me it's more sincere and if women are ignorant and disrespectful to that fact, then that's their problem. As I say, I'll be someone's bf, but I won't be a father figure to them. I'm all for discussion, providing its not endless drivel and repeated sentences which more often than not it is. How do I know this? I know this because its happened to my friends, too.

 

9) We all want clarification, but why so soon into something? When I was with my ex, she pressurised me from the beginning, when I was just finding my feet and settling in to the groove of things. I wanted to take one date at a time and one day at a time and in the end I was ready, but it was her impatient display of behaviour and neediness/clingyness as well as insecurity meant that she added more weight onto my shoulders. At the end of the day I showed her how I felt through action, but she wanted it both through action and word, and to me words are just words. Anyone can say 'I love you', its easy, most people say love all the time, but its rare when someone backs it up with actions, because if they did - this forum wouldn't exist.

[Covonia]

The way that you "just know," is because the guy who loves you starts telling you that he wants to spend every moment with you.

 

Talks about the future with you.

 

Talks about having children with you.

 

Plans vacations with you to places you mentioned you wanted to visit and pays for most of the things.

 

Considers you when making plans and invites you everywhere, especially to family gatherings etc etc.

 

A guy that doesn't want anything to do with you will never talk about the future, won't include you in his plans, won't make you a priority, wants to see you just to have sex maybe a dinner at the most, etc.

 

Now what guy with half a brain will come out with what you just have at the start of a relationship? If a girl said that to me at the start of a possible relationship, I'd leave the country.

 

You're talking about a few years into a relationship and by then both of you should be on the same wavelength with one another. Obviously these things need discussing, but at the very beginning of a relationship or the stages from dating to relationship? That's pure madness.

[Trialbyfire]

Covonia, you need to read all the posts, previous to making assumptive responses.

[Ariadne]

Now what guy with half a brain will come out with what you just have at the start of a relationship? If a girl said that to me at the start of a possible relationship, I'd leave the country.

 

No. The girl would not say that.

 

Those are the things that guys do as the relationship progresses.

 

People that are the "most compatible" are able to do those assesments pretty much right away, btw.

[Covonia]

Covonia, you need to read all the posts, previous to making assumptive responses.

 

 

Meaning? StarGazer is talking about 'talk' which two people have before they get into a relationship. The poster I quoted previously is clearly wide of the mark. I'm not talking about further down the line, I'm talking about the beginning of the relationship, where the dating has been successful and its time to move into phase #2.

 

If two people have an instant connection, they'll know when phase two is on the horizon, because they'll both feel the same way and they'll both express the same/similar emotions to one another. My friend has been with her boyfriend for three years this June and if you ask them if they had a talk at the beginning of their relationship, they'll say no and I believe them, she isn't overly open and neither is he, but they got together through actions, more so than words. She kissed him first out of chance when they were together at his house watching films. Sure, they talk, every couple does, but there was no need for clarification between the two, because they didn't rush into things, they enjoyed each others company, and just focused on today and then focused on tomorrow and what that bought and it bought them closer and week or so afterwards they began holding hands and their feelings for each other grew like the great oak tree and they couldn't be more happier. Of course now they are expressive through word of mouth, but they've never lost that spark which bought them together, they still use actions rather than words and they are both happy together, so it does work.

 

I guess you are someone who prefers to know where she is constantly in a relationship which is fine, but it's not what certain men will be attracted, to.

[norajane]

True. I suppose those who "just know" without any sort of conversation need someone else who "just knows."

 

I think your friends know without a conversation needed:

 

Jessica* (my hairdresser) has has been on 6 proper dates with her guy in 2.5 weeks.

 

2.5 weeks does NOT make a relationship. We all know the incredible disappearing man who rushes with attention and then falls off the face of the earth...usually when he meets someone else who strikes his fancy. That's too many dates within too short a time - we like to fall for the fantasy, but we KNOW that too many dates in too short a time is suspect as far as organic relationship growth.

 

Are they having sex? Have they had an exclusivity talk - no sex with other people? What is the nature of their dates?

 

Regardless, it's way too soon to ask someone 'where is this relationship going' after 2 weeks. It's going...to the next date, or to the disappearing man place. She'll soon know which.

 

Mary has been seeing her guy 2-3 a week (a mix between proper dates and "hanging out") for 2 months.

 

2 months is more along the lines of a relationship. If they're having sex and haven't talked exclusivity, they should. And if they aren't sharing those little meaningful moments of eye contact that say everything, then it's just "dating". But the consistency would imply they are starting a 'relationship'.

 

Trisha has been seeing her guy ("hanging out at his house") about once a week for almost 3 months.

 

They never go anywhere? Booty call. If they aren't having sex, it's "just friends". He's not attracted to her, or he's more attracted to someone else, but likes having her around.

And my roommate Katie has been seeing her dude (generally late at night as soon as he calls) about once a week, maybe once every 1.5-2 weeks, for about 2 months as well.

 

Clearly a booty call since nothing else happens.

[Covonia]

No. The girl would not say that.

 

Those are the things that guys do as the relationship progresses.

 

People that are the "most compatible" are able to do those assesments pretty much right away, btw.

 

So you're saying a man will have hopes of marrying a girl he's just got into a relationship with? Maybe that does happen, it also happens in fairy tales, I don't live in fantasy land, I live in the real world and I'm telling you, I haven't come across too many cases where my friends say to me, they want to marry their gf's they've just started seeing.

 

And why is it down to the man to do that? That's rather sexist isn't it? And you've just said as the relationship progresses, I agree, are you seriously counting on a young gun settling down? I don't think so, I'm young and when I got my with ex who I liked very much, I didn't have plans on settling down with her and spending every waking moment with her. I had other things in my life, not just her, but I spent enough time with her in my eyes, even if she didn't.

 

As for the last sentence, maybe in your eyes, but not in mine.

[Trialbyfire]

I guess you are someone who prefers to know where she is constantly in a relationship which is fine, but it's not what certain men will be attracted, to.

You might be surprised at what kind of person I am.

 

It doesn't threaten me at all, that someone might not be attracted to me. That's okay too.

[Ariadne]

So you're saying a man will have hopes of marrying a girl he's just got into a relationship with? Maybe that does happen, it also happens in fairy tales

 

I've known of numerous cases of soulmates, and it happened right away.

 

I know if a coulple back home, both widows, that met and in "two weeks" they were married.

 

They are inseparable still some 20+ years later, completely involved in the comunity doing service, and if you have an idea of what a perfect couple that gets along in every way is like, they'd be it.

 

You can see Touche too. She has what I believe is a soulmate connection. They got engaged almost right away after they met. I believe it was just a couple months before they started making long term plans.

 

I know of some other couple. The woman had been divorced twice and had the most horrible relationships before. She met the man that she is with now and "right away they hit it off". They moved in together in a matter of weeks and are happy as can be and completely compatible till this day, several years later. They just get along.

 

I've seen that over and over in the case of soulmates. The problem is that people have no idea what true love, or a soulmate connection is like.

 

They want to fit a square peg into a round hole every time, and make some crappy relationships "happen." Because in their minds they believe they have found true love, when in reality is a crush, infatuation, good sex, illusions etc.

[Covonia]

I've known of numerous cases of soulmates, and it happened right away.

 

I know if a coulple back home, both widows, that met and in "two weeks" they were married.

 

They are inseparable still some 20+ years later, completely involved in the comunity doing service, and if you have an idea of what a perfect couple that gets along in every way is like, they'd be it.

 

You can see Touche too. She has what I believe is a soulmate connection. They got engaged almost right away after they met. I believe it was just a couple months before they started making long term plans.

 

I know of some other couple. The woman had been divorced twice and had the most horrible relationships before. She met the man that she is with now and "right away they hit it off". They moved in together in a matter of weeks and are happy as can be and completely compatible till this day, several years later. They just get along.

 

I've seen that over and over in the case of soulmates. The problem is that people have no idea what true love, or a soulmate connection is like.

 

They want to fit a square peg into a round hole every time, and make some crappy relationships "happen." Because in their minds they believe they have found true love, when in reality is a crush, infatuation, good sex, illusions etc.

 

That's fantastic, now out of 6billion people around the world, how many people do you think this happens to? And if you seriously think that would happen to a young gun like me, then you're barking mad. If it works for some people that's brilliant, but I would rush into marriage and commitment in just a few months of being in a relationship with someone. With some people it happens right away, but you'll find them in the minority.

[Ariadne]

If it works for some people that's brilliant, but I would rush into marriage and commitment in just a few months of being in a relationship with someone. With some people it happens right away, but you'll find them in the minority.

 

No, you shouldn't rush into marriage if you are not sure. I agree.

 

And most people don't have a soulmate connection. That's why people are having all the problems that they have in their relationships.

[Trialbyfire]

Covonia, how old are you? I'm curious to know this because some people's requirements change, as they age. It doesn't negate your perspective but you have to understand that your perspective is also based on "stage of life".

[Covonia]

No, you shouldn't rush into marriage if you are not sure. I agree.

 

And most people don't have a soulmate connection. That's why people are having all the problems that they have in their relationships.

 

What you say is true, but then every couple has their problem's at times in relationship's. No relationship is perfect and it's naive to believe so.

 

Can someone explain to me fully, what flakey means?

 

EDIT: I'm 19.

Edited March 23, 2008 by Covonia
To answer Trail's question.

[Touche]

I agree about the "stage of life" aspect. Speaking of which...not sure about the whole "soulmate" idea but see it's about stage of life. H and I were exactly at the same stage in our lives. Both had a failed marriage each. Both wanted to get married again. Both wanted children. And yes, it all came out within weeks. We spent many hours talking about everything under the sun EXCEPT our relationship. And then boom, 4 weeks later he proposed.

 

So maybe the formula is this:

 

Same stage in life + compatibility in most areas=soulmates

[sally4sara]

So maybe the formula is this:

 

Same stage in life + compatibility in most areas=soulmates

 

So by this standard would you say that if two people are dating and one of them feels a sense of urgency about having "the talk" but is hesitant to do so because they worry it will not be welcomed, they should take this as an indication that it is not a "soulmate" situation?

[Star Gazer]

EDIT: I'm 19.

 

That explains a LOT.