Star Gazer Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 This is somewhat of a random question, the result of a conversation with my hairdresser this morning. I have had the same conversation with FOUR of my single girlfriends in the past week regarding their new "relationships" with the guys they're dating. Each one of them is afraid to ask about where the relationship is going, where they stand, etc. Jessica* (my hairdresser) has has been on 6 proper dates with her guy in 2.5 weeks. Mary has been seeing her guy 2-3 a week (a mix between proper dates and "hanging out") for 2 months. Trisha has been seeing her guy ("hanging out at his house") about once a week for almost 3 months. And my roommate Katie has been seeing her dude (generally late at night as soon as he calls) about once a week, maybe once every 1.5-2 weeks, for about 2 months as well. Each of these "relationships" has its own special quirk or issue that would give me a moment of pause about whether I was being led down Relationship Lane or Booty Call Alley. (Note that each of them are sleeping with the guy they're dating, and have never even so much as hinted about questioning what was going on. Given the intimate aspect of each of these relationships, I'd be going nuts if I were them!) Each refuse to broach "the talk" with their guy. Why? "Because you know how guys are, they freak out easily. I don't want to pressure him and push him away." But in the meantime, they're wigging out. Limiting themselves. Wondering where they are, who they're with, if the interest is still there. Talking about them incessantly. Dropping everything as soon as they call to "hang out" at 10:00 p.m. It's killing them. So what I want to know is - are they right? Do guys freak out over "the talk," whereas girls do not? Aren't there just as many women who freak out over "relationship" talks as men? Is this really gender specific? Does broaching "the talk" with a guy you've been dating and are intimate with really freak them out??? Or are these gals freaking out because in their guts do they really KNOW that their guy doesn't want a relationship, and they're afraid to hear the bitter truth?? I know with my Ex I was worried to bring that topic up, and in retrospect I think I was fearful because I knew regardless of what he told me (what I wanted to hear), I knew what the real truth was. But isn't it better to know sooner, rather than later, whether or not the person you're dating sees you as relationship material, or just Ms. Right Now? Thoughts? *Names have been changed to protect the innocent.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Timing is everything. If a guy starts to talk about settling down and having kids within the first few months, it freaks me out. I need to get to know him a little better, before we enter into this type of discussion. Technically, anyone is "Mr. Right Now", until I get a good feeling of who he is. On the flipside, I don't want to enter into a relationship with anyone, unless they're a long-term kind of person. I don't want to waste time with anyone who isn't, unless it's fully understood that we're dating lightly with no exclusivity, which means, no sex, which means, no relationship. It's such a conflict, in so many ways.
Touche Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Timing is everything. If a guy starts to talk about settling down and having kids within the first few months, it freaks me out. I need to get to know him a little better, before we enter into this type of discussion. Wow, interesting. H and I started talking about what we wanted fairly early on. We both knew that we wanted to be married and have a child some day soon. It was only weeks later that we acknowledged that we wanted all of that with each other. Technically, anyone is "Mr. Right Now", until I get a good feeling of who he is. On the flipside, I don't want to enter into a relationship with anyone, unless they're a long-term kind of person. I don't want to waste time with anyone who isn't, unless it's fully understood that we're dating lightly with no exclusivity, which means, no sex, which means, no relationship. It's such a conflict, in so many ways. I hear you on the rest of it. As for any "talk"..hahah. I've never brought that up..not my style. I leave it to the guy to bring it up...or not. Usually, it's brought up and I then decided if I was interested or not. But no. I never, never brought up any talk of exclusivity myself...ever.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 As for any "talk"..hahah. I've never brought that up..not my style. I leave it to the guy to bring it up...or not. Usually, it's brought up and I then decided if I was interested or not. But no. I never, never brought up any talk of exclusivity myself...ever. Hold on there Missy! I'm talking about long-range talks v. exclusivity talks. I fully believe in the exclusivity discussion, prior to entering into a physical relationship. Once that's in place, it might lead to sex or it might not. If there's no exclusivity discussion, it most definitely doesn't lead to sex.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Why talk when actions speak louder than words? What kind of actions do you mean? Please clarify in detail.
Author Star Gazer Posted March 23, 2008 Author Posted March 23, 2008 Why talk when actions speak louder than words? I spent 5 nights a week with my Ex, he did nice things for me, showed me that he was invested. Guess what, he wasn't. There's still some boundaries that need to be established at some point. You can't just assume.
Covonia Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 From my very limited experience, I shall tell you. I met this girl a while ago now, we hit it off, had dates and all that jazz, it went well until she "being a woman" decided to 'talk' and hint about whether we were going out or not. So instead of boring her with small talk, I arranged a meeting with her, we went for a walk and then she decided to try and talk again, and I didn't really want to talk, because talk is cheap. So I just grabbed her, pulled her into me and kissed her and then I said, there's your answer. A while into a relationship she wanted to spend a weekend away with me, she hinted at it and decided to try and tell me outright. So, figuring talk is cheap, I went out and arranged something for the very next day I booked our hostel and away we went, just like that. No talk was needed. Eventually she got in frustrated by a lack of talk and broke things off, but the point is talking just wastes time, I'd rather quit the chat and be spontaneous and implusive, these are actions and speak louder than any words. Actions are the best way forward, unless you're an emo.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Covania, there are two sides to the coin. There's talk and there's action. If the actions don't synch with the talk, it's a good indicator that things are not what they seem.
Author Star Gazer Posted March 23, 2008 Author Posted March 23, 2008 From my very limited experience, I shall tell you. I met this girl a while ago now, we hit it off, had dates and all that jazz, it went well until she "being a woman" decided to 'talk' and hint about whether we were going out or not. So instead of boring her with small talk, I arranged a meeting with her, we went for a walk and then she decided to try and talk again, and I didn't really want to talk, because talk is cheap. So I just grabbed her, pulled her into me and kissed her and then I said, there's your answer. A while into a relationship she wanted to spend a weekend away with me, she hinted at it and decided to try and tell me outright. So, figuring talk is cheap, I went out and arranged something for the very next day I booked our hostel and away we went, just like that. No talk was needed. Eventually she got in frustrated by a lack of talk and broke things off, but the point is talking just wastes time, I'd rather quit the chat and be spontaneous and implusive, these are actions and speak louder than any words. Actions are the best way forward, unless you're an emo. Soooooo in other words, the lack of "the talk" led her to break things off because she had no idea where things were going. Thanks for proving my point.
Touche Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Hold on there Missy! I'm talking about long-range talks v. exclusivity talks. I fully believe in the exclusivity discussion, prior to entering into a physical relationship. Once that's in place, it might lead to sex or it might not. If there's no exclusivity discussion, it most definitely doesn't lead to sex. I don't know what to say about this. We didn't have that "exclusivity" talk. I've never had that with anyone really that I was involved with for the long-term. It was always just understood. Maybe things are different now and I'm showing my age? Or maybe I just seemed to "hook up" with old-fashioned men. I mean if I had more than 3 or 4 dates with a man it was automatically assumed that we were "exclusive" even if we hadn't had sex. Is that passe' these days?
allina Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 I have never brought up "the talk" with any guy I've dated and never really had the desire to. I think that often these things happen naturally and if any finalizing words are said the guy should be the one to say them. Is that a sexist and silly view? Probably, but that's how I feel and it's worked for me, I just wouldn't ask a guy to commit to me. I think that if a guy wants to be committed and in a relationship status he will say so. I also never flip out over "where is this going" like your examples. Do these women want a commitment? It seems like maybe the guys don't want one in these situations and the women feel that.
Covonia Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Covania, there are two sides to the coin. There's talk and there's action. If the actions don't synch with the talk, it's a good indicator that things are not what they seem. Talking can be good, but I find when it comes to showing emotion and when it comes to showing how you truly feel then actions are better. Sure, no relationship can survive without conversation. But I hate 'the sit down and lets discuss where we are heading' conversation. Why not see what tomorrow brings? Why do people need plans and events set in stone? What's wrong with spontaneity and impluse? I'd rather write a poem to a girl stating how I feel than just telling her through word of mouth, sounds weird? Well, sure it is, but I've tried the talk before and it doesn't work. Women just brush it off because they've heard it all before and it sounds cliched. recycled, repackaged and frankly repetitive and boring.
Touche Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 I have never brought up "the talk" with any guy I've dated and never really had the desire to. I think that often these things happen naturally and if any finalizing words are said the guy should be the one to say them. Is that a sexist and silly view? Probably, but that's how I feel and it's worked for me, I just wouldn't ask a guy to commit to me. I think that if a guy wants to be committed and in a relationship status he will say so. I also never flip out over "where is this going" like your examples. Do these women want a commitment? It seems like maybe the guys don't want one in these situations and the women feel that. I agree 100% Allina. I mean by the time I had 3 or 4 dates with a guy we'd gotten rather intimate as far as discussions about our personal lives/goals/desires went....not physically necessarily. By then, we knew a whole lot about each other. And by the time it progressed to the physical..no "formal" talk was ever required or needed. It was already understood that it was "exclusive."
Covonia Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 (edited) Soooooo in other words, the lack of "the talk" led her to break things off because she had no idea where things were going. Thanks for proving my point. She was needy, clingy and constantly needed reassurance. She was a bane on what could have been a wonderfully expressive relationship and to be honest, I don't miss her, she wasn't fiesty, didn't have a good head on her shoulders and wasn't independent enough for me. I tried to make the relationship more exciting, but I figured out the more needy woman needs constant discussions throughout the relationship and will find a million minor faults to spend hours, days, weeks and even months contemplating over. I'm not saying talk isn't necessary, of course it is, how else do we humans survive, but constant reassurance and talk becomes tiresome and I just can't put up with it. I committed a lot of time and energy to this girl and she threw it back in my face, because she wanted constant clarification that I was committed to her and wouldn't run away with the nearest woman in my radar. Edited March 23, 2008 by Covonia
xpaperxcutx Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 From my very limited experience, I shall tell you. I met this girl a while ago now, we hit it off, had dates and all that jazz, it went well until she "being a woman" decided to 'talk' and hint about whether we were going out or not. So instead of boring her with small talk, I arranged a meeting with her, we went for a walk and then she decided to try and talk again, and I didn't really want to talk, because talk is cheap. So I just grabbed her, pulled her into me and kissed her and then I said, there's your answer. A while into a relationship she wanted to spend a weekend away with me, she hinted at it and decided to try and tell me outright. So, figuring talk is cheap, I went out and arranged something for the very next day I booked our hostel and away we went, just like that. No talk was needed. Eventually she got in frustrated by a lack of talk and broke things off, but the point is talking just wastes time, I'd rather quit the chat and be spontaneous and implusive, these are actions and speak louder than any words. Actions are the best way forward, unless you're an emo. Man she must've been frustrated.
Touche Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 She was needy, clingy and constantly needed reassurance. She was a bane on what could have been a wonderfully expressive relationship and to be honest, I don't miss her, she wasn't fiesty, didn't have a good head on her shoulders and wasn't independent enough for me. I tried to make the relationship more exciting, but I figured out the more needy woman needs constant discussions throughout the relationship and will find a million minor faults to spend hours, days, weeks and even months contemplating over. I'm not saying talk isn't necessary, of course it is, how else do we humans survive, but constant reassurance and talk becomes tiresome and I just can't put up with it. I committed a lot of time and energy to this girl and she threw it back in my face, because she wanted constant clarification that I was committed to her and wouldn't run away with the nearest woman in my radar. As a woman, I must say I agree with you. I've dealt with men like this and it's not for me..so I've always tried to not be that way as a woman. And it's worked for me.
Covonia Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 Man she must've been frustrated. She was deeply frustrated. At least she has met someone who takes care of her ever whim and loves to talk and constantly reassure her about her million insecurities.
Author Star Gazer Posted March 23, 2008 Author Posted March 23, 2008 You guys aren't really answering my questions posed in the opening post. This isn't about whether a talk is necessary (that could be the subject of an entirely different thread), but why so many women are afraid to broach the subject given how badly they do want to know where they stand.
OpenBook Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 This isn't about whether a talk is necessary (that could be the subject of an entirely different thread), but why so many women are afraid to broach the subject given how badly they do want to know where they stand. Because they've had enough experience with men to know that most men do not like being pinpointed about where the R is going and how they feel about her. Pressing him for this information often drives him away.
Covonia Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 but why so many women are afraid to broach the subject given how badly they do want to know where they stand. It could be down to a whole series couldn't it? I mean, no offense, but women tend to be contradictory and complex. I'm going to say that I reckon it's because women do not want to come across as being needy, clingy, too forward and dictorial. Then there's women who believe it's a man duty to seal the deal and make any decisions. Then there's some women who make the talk sound like a formal event, where the man has to dress up in his smartest suit, take her out to dinner and then discuss the matter as if it were a piece of UN legislation. If a woman just asked "where do I stand?" I'm sure she'd get her answer, either by action (my way of doing things) or by a brief sentence or two from her man on what's happening.
cutegirl Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 You guys aren't really answering my questions posed in the opening post. This isn't about whether a talk is necessary (that could be the subject of an entirely different thread), but why so many women are afraid to broach the subject given how badly they do want to know where they stand. It's because they are afraid the guy will think they are "clingy" and "desperate". The women want to have "game" so they pretend that they are like a guy and don't care to have "the talk" because they think this is what guys like. It's related to that other thread I read that you started "What does dating like a guy mean?" The women are TRYING to date like guys but they can't because deep down inside they are wigging out and wondering who the guy is talking to and where he is going, they just can't help it.
Covonia Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 It's because they are afraid the guy will think they are "clingy" and "desperate". The women want to have "game" so they pretend that they are like a guy and don't care to have "the talk" because they think this is what guys like. It's related to that other thread I read that you started "What does dating like a guy mean?" The women are TRYING to date like guys but they can't because deep down inside they are wigging out and wondering who the guy is talking to and where he is going, they just can't help it. You paint a disturbing image of how a woman's mind works. If women didn't think so much and over-analyze too much, instead just let things develop naturally and not make every discussion into a four hour formal conversation which goes around in circles then I think it would be easier for men to open up. It's not necessarily because we think women are desperate, it's more to do with the fact women seem to like to find problems out of nothing then expect to singe your ears with conversation after conversation. It really does become very tiring after a few days of this constant need of reassurance, direction and guidance. We're your partner, f*ck buddy and friend, not your parents, there's a difference. And more fool to a woman if she thinks acting like a man will clear up her situation(s) with regards to where she stands with a man. Women can talk and get their situation(s) cleared up without making the discussion formal, over-run and repetitive.
Touche Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 (edited) It's because they are afraid the guy will think they are "clingy" and "desperate". The women want to have "game" so they pretend that they are like a guy and don't care to have "the talk" because they think this is what guys like. It's related to that other thread I read that you started "What does dating like a guy mean?" The women are TRYING to date like guys but they can't because deep down inside they are wigging out and wondering who the guy is talking to and where he is going, they just can't help it. Uhm, can you please speak for yourself. NO. Not all of us are that insecure. As for this: This isn't about whether a talk is necessary (that could be the subject of an entirely different thread), but why so many women are afraid to broach the subject given how badly they do want to know where they stand I thought that was already addressed. See where you're mistaken is in saying this: so many women are afraid to broach the subject given how badly they do want to know where they stand Again..uhm..no. Many of us aren't in such a rush to know where we stand. We're happy to get to know a man and leave things in his hands. I was never afraid to broach anything..had no desire to. Really, 99% of the time the guy was worried about where I stood with him. That was fine with me. If after a certain time, I didn't know where I stood, I was gone. Pretty simple, really. I didn't need a "talk." Saves you so much heartache really. Try it. You'll see. Edited March 23, 2008 by Touche
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 You have to look at this in multiple ways. Yes, a circular 4 hour conversation is as meaningless, as an udder is on a bull. A 1/2 hour meaningful conversation about where one stands, means A LOT! It's got nothing to do with insecurities and everything to do with communication. Whether you guys like it or not, you have to learn to emotionally open up and express yourself. We, as women, can't read your minds and for the life of me, I don't even want to friggen' try!
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