theBrokenMuse Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I find that I can not talk to my spouse about any negative aspects of our relationship. I've always been the type of person that doesn't nag, yell or make a scene when I have an issue. I typically just want to calmly converse about problems and see if we could resolve the situation. At least that is how I used to be... I find that I tend to avoid conflict now because bringing up even the smallest negative thing about our relationship causes my husband to go into attack mode. He isn't concerned with trying to fix a situation, he just wants to debate me and win at all cost. I am just tired of trying to get through and being bombarded with distorted facts, blame shifting and strawmen. He refuses to even acknowledge my feelings, never mind take responsibility for his half of the marriage. I have always hated conflict and his hostility has caused me to shut down. How do you deal with someone like this?
daisygirl Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I find that I can not talk to my spouse about any negative aspects of our relationship. I've always been the type of person that doesn't nag, yell or make a scene when I have an issue. I typically just want to calmly converse about problems and see if we could resolve the situation. At least that is how I used to be... I find that I tend to avoid conflict now because bringing up even the smallest negative thing about our relationship causes my husband to go into attack mode. He isn't concerned with trying to fix a situation, he just wants to debate me and win at all cost. I am just tired of trying to get through and being bombarded with distorted facts, blame shifting and strawmen. He refuses to even acknowledge my feelings, never mind take responsibility for his half of the marriage. I have always hated conflict and his hostility has caused me to shut down. How do you deal with someone like this? I think we are married to the same man....
daisygirl Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I should have offered some advice to you...I apologize.... Do you have children together? My H and I have one son, and I know that makes it a lot harder. Would he be willing to do marriage counseling? Or more importantly, would you? Either way, I suggest individual counseling. As I mentioned, I have a husband like yours, and IC is REALLY helping me see things more clearly and be a stronger person. My IC will never change my husband, but it can help me to be more empowered to do SOMETHING about my marriage, whether it's to decide to divorce, or work on it. All I know is that I cannot continue in a marriage like mine. Your situation may be different, but that's my 2 cents.... Read my other threads if you wanna hear more of my story.... Good luck!
Author theBrokenMuse Posted March 21, 2008 Author Posted March 21, 2008 I should have offered some advice to you...I apologize.... Do you have children together? My H and I have one son, and I know that makes it a lot harder. Would he be willing to do marriage counseling? Or more importantly, would you? Either way, I suggest individual counseling. As I mentioned, I have a husband like yours, and IC is REALLY helping me see things more clearly and be a stronger person. My IC will never change my husband, but it can help me to be more empowered to do SOMETHING about my marriage, whether it's to decide to divorce, or work on it. All I know is that I cannot continue in a marriage like mine. Your situation may be different, but that's my 2 cents.... Read my other threads if you wanna hear more of my story.... Good luck! Thanks for your quick reply. I have two little boys myself, both toddlers. My husband refuses to acknowledge any of his flaws so therapy isn't his cup of tea. He thinks all therapists are stupid. You see my husband may be a lot of things but he's never WRONG. If I had the money I'd be in IC right now myself. I feel so beaten down and depressed lately that I hate to even get up in the morning. Every morning I wake up with a knot in my stomach.
daisygirl Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) Muse.... I swear, we must have the same husband. But all joking aside, my H is the same way - he's ALWAYS right. And any problems he may have are my fault. I was almost starting to believe him until I started IC. Oh, and my H also doesn't believe in therapy. Especially lately since he's seeing some changes in me and he's losing control. He keeps going back and forth as to whether or not he wants to do MC - we have an appt. set up for next week, but I don't know if I even want to go anymore. I am lucky because I am a student and the college I go to does free/low-cost counseling for students. I don't know if there is anything where you live, but maybe you could find some low-cost counseling to help you out. Maybe call some places to see if they know of anything. You can't keep feeling that way. It's not good for you or your children. How long have you felt this way? I went on for too long feeling like you do without getting help, and now my H and I are more than likely heading for divorce. I don't want to scare you, but just letting you know. I certainly don't mean that's going to happen to you, because my H and I have other issues we are dealing with. Let me know if you have any questions....this forum has been great, and I've learned a lot and gotten great replies, so I am happy to help any way I can Edited March 21, 2008 by daisygirl
Mr. Lucky Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I find that my wife is similar in the way she deals with conflict. Not so much that she has to win at all costs but that she takes any criticism or displeasure expressed by me as an indictment of her worth as a person. For instance, she is frequently late. If I express my frustration over that, she'll say something like "Well, I guess you just don't like anything about me". It's hard to keep any arguement on topic since she can be so defensive and sensitive. I think, in her case, it goes back to her upbringing. Her Father is very cold, critical and not a warm fuzzy person at all. Those of you that have "SSS's" (Super-Sensitive-Spouses), do you find that their childhood might be the source of those feelings? Mr. Lucky
Frances Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 (edited) Broken Muse(I have two little boys myself, both toddlers. My husband refuses to acknowledge any of his flaws so therapy isn't his cup of tea. He thinks all therapists are stupid. You see my husband may be a lot of things but he's never WRONG. If I had the money I'd be in IC right now myself. I feel so beaten down and depressed lately that I hate to even get up in the morning. Every morning I wake up with a knot in my stomach.) It would appear that a lot of us are married to similar men. If you can not afford IC is it possible to join a self help group that would give you an outlet to talk out some of your frustration with your marriage. I have spent over twenty years of our nearly 36 years of marriage walking on egg shells with my husband for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Your children are young which means you are also young. My advice would be to deal with it now or you will find yourself in years to come, like me with very little options open to you. Edited March 21, 2008 by Frances
annieo Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I think you are married to my EX husband! Always right, passive aggressive, if I ever tried to talk about the things that were bothering me (his controlling behavior, about money, friends, etc.) he would slyly turn it on me. Did I have PMS? Was I upset because my friend was unhappy in her marriage? Was she giving me ideas? He really thought he was perfect and that any woman would be thrilled to have him (I blame his mother and sisters for this ego problem). Even now, years later with me happily married to someone else, he has never, NEVER owned up to even a small percentage of responsibility for the demise of our relationship. Fortunately, I don't care anymore. If he needs his delusions, fine. But if your h isn't willing to even try to address problems in a fair, reasonable way, you either have to learn to live with him, or leave. And believe me, neither option is going to be very easy.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I think sometimes it's necessary to change our attitudes about conflict. Like you, I used to avoid conflict like the plague. Men don't argue very well. They don't process emotional data as fast as women can, and in a desperate effort to level the playing field, they routinely end up overcompensating and hurting our feelings. Somebody recently posted something to the effect that when it comes to emotions... women have a high-speed blender, but men are working with a wooden spoon. I say, they use that spoon to try to cudgel us into submission when they can't keep up. Don't get me wrong... it's not that their emotional range doesn't have the same breadth and depth as that of women, it's just that they can't process on the fly like we can. Their "go-to" emotion is anger. Underneath, they might be feeling insecurity, inadequacy, jealousy, sadness or anything else... but if it's unpleasant, it'll like come out as anger initially. I've noticed over the years that if I just back off and give my sweetie some time to work through whatever he's feeling... nine out of ten times, he'll get it straightened out and we can talk about it. And since I've become aware of the fact that he's genuinely bogged down, I've learned not to take offense at the initial flare up of frustration. "Backing off" and giving him some time though... is not the same as conflict avoidance. Conflict avoidance leads to Resentment, and resentment is a marriage killer. These days, I pick my battles. And not just that, I pick when I'm going to fight them. But as a reformed conflict avoider, I can tell you that even though it's hard... it's worth it. Avoiding the build-up of Resentment is a marital imperative. So, resolving problems is part of bringing my 100% to the table. I owe it to my husband and my marriage to do it. I protect my husband and my marriage by doing it. Once I started looking at managing conflict as a personal responsibility, I quit avoiding it. Now, that doesn't mean I like doing it, but it's kind of like unclogging the sink... it's yucky, but it's got to be done.
annieo Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 Ladyjane, well put. But the unclogging of the resentment sink takes two, and what if one person isn't willing to assume some responsibility to help do it? My ex h wouldn't: the clogged sink was my problem, unrelated to anything he did. There is no way to go with a person of that attitude except growing resentment, or actually starting to believe that yes, it is all your personal problem, not a shared one. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink comes to mind.
TechDude Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 because bringing up even the smallest negative thing about our relationship causes my husband to go into attack mode. He isn't concerned with trying to fix a situation, he just wants to debate me and win at all cost. I have always hated conflict and his hostility has caused me to shut down. Hmmm ... your husband sounds a bit like me. My husband refuses to acknowledge any of his flaws so therapy isn't his cup of tea. He thinks all therapists are stupid. You see my husband may be a lot of things but he's never WRONG. Hmmm ... yep, that was me. he's ALWAYS right. And any problems he may have are my fault. Sigh! Guilty again How do you deal with someone like this? I'm in kind of a rush at the moment (my W is going to find me on the computer instead of in the shower, then there will be hell to pay), so I'll try to ponder how to deal with me and get back later. One thing I will say is that it took some very dramatic events to wake me up (7 years ago) and I'm still dealing with how to change. (Dang ... sprung ... got to run)
Ladyjane14 Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 Ladyjane, well put. But the unclogging of the resentment sink takes two, and what if one person isn't willing to assume some responsibility to help do it? My ex h wouldn't: the clogged sink was my problem, unrelated to anything he did. There is no way to go with a person of that attitude except growing resentment, or actually starting to believe that yes, it is all your personal problem, not a shared one. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink comes to mind. When it comes to conflict avoidance, just meeting it head-on and for the right reasons... is doing your share for the relationship. We can't control other people. All we can do is put our own 100% on the table. If he doesn't pony up his share, that's his choice. The idea that somebody else won't do the right thing, doesn't mitigate the responsibility that we have to ourselves to see it done. Surprisingly enough, it makes you feel better just knowing you're doing your best. It builds self-esteem and confidence, and first thing you know... you're not taking your mate's flaws quite as personally as you used to.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 One other thought, because I don't want to minimize the OP's problem and we don't KNOW her husband... Sometimes an a*hole is just an a*hole... and there's not a whole lot to be done with him but send him back to his Mama for some badly needed and permanent home-training. But if we're talking about an otherwise good guy who's 'losing his mind' over the petty stuff, it's important to focus on the fact that any little thing can throw them off their emotional game. I've had times where my sweetie is stomping around making a mountain out of some molehill, and it occurs to me that maybe he's just hungry. He's got low blood sugar, and he sometimes gets busy and loses sight of the fact that he needs to eat at regular intervals whether he feels hungry or not. Feeding is an EN for him too, so he recognizes my offerings of food as expressions of care and responds accordingly. So... I can offer him some food, come back twenty minutes later, ruffle his hair, call him a 'nerd' for getting mad, and stick some granola bars in his coat pocket.. and it all ends there. And it was never worth the effort of taking his complaints personally or building resentments. People just aren't perfect, but it's okay. If we could only love perfect people, we'd have nobody to love at all. So, when I'm mulling over the laundry list of crap I have to put up with off my mate, I have to remember... he's got a list too.
annieo Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 One other thought, because I don't want to minimize the OP's problem and we don't KNOW her husband... Sometimes an a*hole is just an a*hole... and there's not a whole lot to be done with him but send him back to his Mama for some badly needed and permanent home-training. But if we're talking about an otherwise good guy who's 'losing his mind' over the petty stuff, it's important to focus on the fact that any little thing can throw them off their emotional game. I've had times where my sweetie is stomping around making a mountain out of some molehill, and it occurs to me that maybe he's just hungry. He's got low blood sugar, and he sometimes gets busy and loses sight of the fact that he needs to eat at regular intervals whether he feels hungry or not. Feeding is an EN for him too, so he recognizes my offerings of food as expressions of care and responds accordingly. So... I can offer him some food, come back twenty minutes later, ruffle his hair, call him a 'nerd' for getting mad, and stick some granola bars in his coat pocket.. and it all ends there. And it was never worth the effort of taking his complaints personally or building resentments. People just aren't perfect, but it's okay. If we could only love perfect people, we'd have nobody to love at all. So, when I'm mulling over the laundry list of crap I have to put up with off my mate, I have to remember... he's got a list too. Again, well said, but you obviously still love your h. He hasn't been such an unrelenting a-hole that you have lost that loving feeling. Everybody can be a jerk sometimes, but if you are a decent person and you value your partner/relationship, you apologize when necessary. You admit some responsibility. I can't tell you how many times I have had to back down and say, OK I'm being a bitch, I'm sorry. And my h does the same. He will say he's sorry, eventually, try to reconnect with me when he's being a jerk. My ex h NEVER did that. EVER. In 10 years together. I always had to make it right, even when he was the one in the wrong. Therefore, building resentment, affair and divorce. A friend of mine put it quite succinctly. She's a former New Yorker, Jewish, and I can't quote her in Yiddish, but she said there is an expression that roughly translates into, "The furniture won't get up and walk out". It sums up taking a spouse for granted quite well. My ex treated me like a piece of furniture, but these legs CAN get up and walk. And did.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 I keep having "one more thought" about you, OP. How do you deal with someone like this? Try this. It's an old trick from my marriage counselor.... Agree before you start, that you will only discuss one topic at a time. If necessary, let him introduce a topic for discussion too, but do it in such a way as to discuss your two topics consecutively rather than together. If tempers get heated, you agree beforehand that anybody can call a time-out and table the discussion for a later time without penalty. For your present concerns, if your topic is... "How come you feel the need to win whenever we have a disagreement?", your point of discussion might be this: How is it possible for one partner to WIN in conflict against his own team-mate?
Ladyjane14 Posted March 21, 2008 Posted March 21, 2008 Again, well said, but you obviously still love your h. He hasn't been such an unrelenting a-hole that you have lost that loving feeling. It's true. He's a terrible chore... but I still love him. Weirdly though, just a couple of years ago that fact was NEWS to me. And nobody was more surprised about it than I was. Resentments are kind of like logs in a beaver dam. They block up the flow of love. Sometimes, they block it up so badly you don't even feel the love anymore. And it's not until the resentments are cleared out, that you know if it's still there or not.
Author theBrokenMuse Posted March 22, 2008 Author Posted March 22, 2008 And any problems he may have are my fault. Here too. I am surprised he hasn't found a way to blame me for causing the war in Iraq at this point... He makes bad decisions and then tells me it's my fault he made them because something I said or did influenced his decisions. Apparently I must have some serious Jedi Mind tricks or something because from hearing him speak, I am the driving force behind everything bad that happens in our household. It's infuriating!
Author theBrokenMuse Posted March 22, 2008 Author Posted March 22, 2008 I think you are married to my EX husband! Always right, passive aggressive, if I ever tried to talk about the things that were bothering me (his controlling behavior, about money, friends, etc.) he would slyly turn it on me. wow... they do sound identical! The real funny thing is that he didn't act like this until AFTER we got married. The passive aggressive crap drives me insane!
Author theBrokenMuse Posted March 22, 2008 Author Posted March 22, 2008 My advice would be to deal with it now or you will find yourself in years to come, like me with very little options open to you. It's funny but I already feel that way now. Little by little things have changed and I didn't notice it at the time but the first time I seriously thought about leaving I was sickened to my stomach to realize what a horrible position I have found myself in. I have no family, friends or support network to count on. I had to quit working because one of my children has disorders that would make finding a suitable daycare really hard and nannies are just too expensive to be a realistic option. If I had balls, my husband would have me by them, and he knows it.
Author theBrokenMuse Posted March 22, 2008 Author Posted March 22, 2008 Resentments are kind of like logs in a beaver dam. They block up the flow of love. Sometimes, they block it up so badly you don't even feel the love anymore. And it's not until the resentments are cleared out, that you know if it's still there or not. Very true.
hurtzdonit Posted March 22, 2008 Posted March 22, 2008 (edited) I find that I can not talk to my spouse about any negative aspects of our relationship. I've always been the type of person that doesn't nag, yell or make a scene when I have an issue. I typically just want to calmly converse about problems and see if we could resolve the situation. At least that is how I used to be... I find that I tend to avoid conflict now because bringing up even the smallest negative thing about our relationship causes my husband to go into attack mode. He isn't concerned with trying to fix a situation, he just wants to debate me and win at all cost. I am just tired of trying to get through and being bombarded with distorted facts, blame shifting and strawmen. He refuses to even acknowledge my feelings, never mind take responsibility for his half of the marriage. I have always hated conflict and his hostility has caused me to shut down. How do you deal with someone like this? If I didn't know any better I'd swear you were married to me. Because I used to (and to some extent still do) have the same reaction when my wife wanted to talk about the things that were negative in our lives. That all changed 3 weeks ago when I found in appropriate IM's. Talk about a real EYE opener. Since that time we have talked more about where we were, where we are and where we want to be. I acknowledged that my resistance to openly communicate was a catalyst for the IM's. I would not suggest the same for you and yours. It SUCKS! But you have got to find a way if you are serious about making your marriage last and being stronger and more connected. I keep telling my wife that had she come to me and said "We are having problems and if you don't want to talk about it, I don't want to be here". I might have been more open to talking about our problems and listing to her "side" of things. But to be honest, I don't know if I would have been or not. If she would have said, we talk or I leave I think I would have been willing to listen. I can tell you from experience it is very hard for someone who has problems showing any emotion except for anger to sit down and have a heart to heart discussion with out getting defensive. Hurtz. Edited March 22, 2008 by hurtzdonit
armywife915 Posted March 22, 2008 Posted March 22, 2008 Usually when I bring up something or say he hurt my feelings, my husband usually says, "Yeah well I feel like this" or "Well I hate when you do this". IT can never be about just him. It's funny because he will even bring up stuff from the past that I thought was resolved. I don't know how to win.
hurtzdonit Posted March 22, 2008 Posted March 22, 2008 It's funny because he will even bring up stuff from the past that I thought was resolved. I think married men in general (not always) are very good at doing that. If we have a tendency to get defensive about the current subject we will dredge up something from the past (that should have been long forgotten). By bringing up the past it easier to steer the talks to something that really doesn't mean crap (because we've already had that argument) than it is to own up to the current situation. It's an elaborate dodge, or pathetic, your choice; that is employed. 9 times out of 10 it works, so we keep going there. I mean why fix whats broken when you can continue to beat on something that no longer matters?
TechDude Posted March 23, 2008 Posted March 23, 2008 OK, sorry I have taken so long to get back here and provide the feedback I promised. ... because bringing up even the smallest negative thing about our relationship causes my husband to go into attack mode. He isn't concerned with trying to fix a situation, he just wants to debate me and win at all cost. I am just tired of trying to get through and being bombarded with distorted facts, blame shifting and strawmen. He refuses to even acknowledge my feelings, never mind take responsibility for his half of the marriage. My Mum once told my wife (a long time ago) and has told others as well "don't argue with <TechDude> because he is always right". The real truth behind that is that I don't argue unless I know I'm right, so what my Mum said was correct, just not in the way you might have thought. I don't know why, but somehow, as I grew up, I seemed to have developed a need to be right, get things right, know the right answer etc. This is also apparent in decision making where I will over analyse everything for fear of getting it wrong. It has been said that my father was a perfectionist. I don't think I am to the same extent he was, but it may have something to do with my needing to always be right. So, if something happens that suggests I might have been wrong, then either this suggestion is wrong or there is a flaw in my thinking that requires investigation and correction. If nothing else, it at least warrants a discussion to see if I really was wrong or not. Funnily enough, certain people (who are themselves somewhat insecure ... ie the W) take this as an argument and as me needing to prove I was right "at any cost". From where I sit, I am needing to understand a possible flaw in my thinking - of course, it often turns out that my thinking was not flawed and the other person (who is not so careful about the facts) was wrong after all. I have always hated conflict and his hostility has caused me to shut down.As do I, yet it often seems to be my own behaviour that gives rise to the conflict (if only other people would not argue with me when I'm right, there would not be a problem). I do fully understand your response. My husband refuses to acknowledge any of his flaws so therapy isn't his cup of tea. He thinks all therapists are stupid. You see my husband may be a lot of things but he's never WRONG. I fully understand. That was me 8 years ago. How do you deal with someone like this?Good question. Starting point ... this behaviour is a reflection of insecurities in that person, not a reflection of you in any way. It took me a long time to realise that sometimes, being quiet and keeping the peace is more important than being right. (I'm still right, I just don't have to prove it as much as I used to). Be patient, your H needs your help, even though he does not realise it. Unfortunately, this type of behaviour tends to drive other people away. Deep down, your H probably knows this and appreciates more than you realise that you are still around. However, unless he is given a REALLY compelling reason to change, he won't change. You are going to have to sit down for a serious discussion with him. When he gets defensive (he will), he will need lots of reassurance that you still want to be with him and want to work through this, but as things stand, you can't tolerate it much longer. If it sinks in, he will probably say that he can change and can you give him time (anything to avoid "counselling"). Don't buy this - he does not really even understand his problem and is therefore not able to actually do anything about it. You might have to go as far as saying that you want the marriage to continue, you are willing to work in it, but it is conditional on MC. This is non-negotiable. As I said, it will take something serious to wake him up. He really does not want the wake up call that I got ... I hope for both of you that you can get through to him. BUT ... you MUST do something. You cannot afford to leave things continue or you will end up walking away (or being carried away by men in white coats).
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