DanielMadr Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 And I think alot of "nice guys" end up being aholes because they figure, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em and have fun. Thats because Puss*s are only an inch and a half from A**holes. So it is easy for a Pus*y to become an As*hole. To become a real D*ck thats a hell of an effort. You are only a bunch of whinning little boys. How can you treat a girl you hardly know like your momma-saviour-future mother of your children-princess??? Are you mad? Of course she will make fun of you. It never worked that way and now with all anticonception pills/promiscuity it is even more riddiculous when man behaves like lost boy.
carhill Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Funnily, I always have seen the bad boys as the little boys who never grew up. Selfish, egocentric, immature. Must be the mother instinct in women which imbues a sense of desire; desire to help the little boy grow up and adore her, for she is the mother who brought him to become a fully functioning man
twice_shy Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Thats because Puss*s are only an inch and a half from A**holes. So it is easy for a Pus*y to become an As*hole. To become a real D*ck thats a hell of an effort.. Congrats on making that effort. It must have been hard work.
DanielMadr Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Funnily, I always have seen the bad boys as the little boys who never grew up. Selfish, egocentric, immature. Must be the mother instinct in women which imbues a sense of desire; desire to help the little boy grow up and adore her, for she is the mother who brought him to become a fully functioning man Thats why the Bad boy and Nice guy are so close to each other. Motivation is the same but display different. One is passive, other is aggressive. One is arrogant, other is supplicant. Its like commies and nazis. They are on opposite sides of political spectre line but they are actually the same point on circle. Balance is the key. And I can tell you the balance is far more then you imagine it should be. Because in our time Equality aka Sameness is the word. So the balance is viewed as 50 of masculine and 50 of feminine in one person. But the truth is it should be 80 or even more of masculine for a man. The rest will be deployed by your SO.
DanielMadr Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Congrats on making that effort. It must have been hard work. Thank You. I had a head start. Nevertheless Im not there yet....it is continous effort and learning...you know a life.
carhill Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 I'll float that interesting assertion by our psychologist. My basic psych theory is that the id is omnipotent but the intellect and the conscience (functions of socialization and learning) oppose the id to a level of existence and behavior that balances personal satisfaction with societal/social/familial expectation. It would be interesting to explore the socialization of "good guys" and the id balance process. I know, from my experiences, that I was not socialized as a strong male (my father was an intellectual and had no concern for typical male behaviors) but had a strong mother influence. Perhaps that is at the root of my base desire to please women, as their presence as female evoke those old chemical patterns. Even though my wife has said part of what she liked about me was my independent spirit and the fact that I was was able to escape my mother's strong influence, perhaps our battles do reflect, as my wife is a strong-willed woman as well, a continued effort to assert my own balance of id and familial/societal expectation, colored by my own particular socialization. Fun stuff.... oh, well, off to make a living
DanielMadr Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 I'll float that interesting assertion by our psychologist. My basic psych theory is that the id is omnipotent but the intellect and the conscience (functions of socialization and learning) oppose the id to a level of existence and behavior that balances personal satisfaction with societal/social/familial expectation. It would be interesting to explore the socialization of "good guys" and the id balance process. I know, from my experiences, that I was not socialized as a strong male (my father was an intellectual and had no concern for typical male behaviors) but had a strong mother influence. Perhaps that is at the root of my base desire to please women, as their presence as female evoke those old chemical patterns. Even though my wife has said part of what she liked about me was my independent spirit and the fact that I was was able to escape my mother's strong influence, perhaps our battles do reflect, as my wife is a strong-willed woman as well, a continued effort to assert my own balance of id and familial/societal expectation, colored by my own particular socialization. Fun stuff.... oh, well, off to make a living Psycologists say that guys tend to re-marry their mothers to fix the things they couldnt when kids. And of course they dont know any better. You couldnt please your mother so you try and try. you have to cut the string and start pleasing yourself. Not by being an selfish as*hole, just dont be the no-problem kid you tried to be to win your mothers approval. Mothers like calm mature-like boys sitting in the corner. Women like snake-eaters doing war-dance in the centre.
Cobra_X30 Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 I'm not saying that there is no middle - but I've been at the extremes. I'd be happy with several different types of men - but I don't want the attraction to the man who hits girls, verbally abuses them, steals from them, and so on - but it's been what I've known. For some people it's hard to get away from what you know. While I kind of agree with Carhill, I completely understand where your coming from on this. The guys who treated you poorly in the past... that wasn't just dumb luck. More than likely it was something you were searching out in a relationship. Now your trying something different... and that emotional high isn't there in the same way. Be VERY careful to sit down and understand how your feeling and why. Once you get into that pattern of chasing after abusive relationships... it can be very hard to break.
carhill Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 OP, I can offer a suggestion. Don't look at this guy as the be-all and end-all of good guys, but rather merely a signpost on the path of learning more about yourself. Relationships, even transient ones, are learning experiences. Perhaps, you will take away some important lessons from this experience that will benefit you and your intended in the next one. Mothers like calm mature-like boys sitting in the corner. Women like snake-eaters doing war-dance in the centre. I will plagiarize this quote Excellent. Sometimes what I don't wish to hear is exactly the thing I need to hear....
Author dreamergrl Posted March 19, 2008 Author Posted March 19, 2008 While I kind of agree with Carhill, I completely understand where your coming from on this. The guys who treated you poorly in the past... that wasn't just dumb luck. More than likely it was something you were searching out in a relationship. Now your trying something different... and that emotional high isn't there in the same way. Be VERY careful to sit down and understand how your feeling and why. Once you get into that pattern of chasing after abusive relationships... it can be very hard to break. Yes it is - and I want to change that pattern before I end up stuck in that pattern. I agree it wasn't just dumb luck - seeing how it got repeated. But it's not what I want - and I want and will fix the issue that caused me to end up with the men who didn't treat me right.
burning 4 revenge Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Thats because Puss*s are only an inch and a half from A**holes. So it is easy for a Pus*y to become an As*hole. To become a real D*ck thats a hell of an effort. You are only a bunch of whinning little boys. How can you treat a girl you hardly know like your momma-saviour-future mother of your children-princess??? Are you mad? Of course she will make fun of you. It never worked that way and now with all anticonception pills/promiscuity it is even more riddiculous when man behaves like lost boy.This is actually a pretty good post I agree
Cobra_X30 Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Yes it is - and I want to change that pattern before I end up stuck in that pattern. I agree it wasn't just dumb luck - seeing how it got repeated. But it's not what I want - and I want and will fix the issue that caused me to end up with the men who didn't treat me right. My advice is this. Think about it in terms of what your getting from it emotionally, because if there wasn't an emotional payoff you wouldn't feel that way. For example. Some women get caught in that false value system. If a guy treats you well... he must be of lower value than you. If a guy treats you poorly... he is telling you that he is better than you... therefore you are more attracted to him. Remember that one of the biggest things people fear is rejection, and that fear can drive many of your emotions. So, do you think that perhaps you feel differently towards men who are emotionally secure to you vs. those who generate a fear of rejection?
Author dreamergrl Posted March 19, 2008 Author Posted March 19, 2008 My advice is this. Think about it in terms of what your getting from it emotionally, because if there wasn't an emotional payoff you wouldn't feel that way. For example. Some women get caught in that false value system. If a guy treats you well... he must be of lower value than you. If a guy treats you poorly... he is telling you that he is better than you... therefore you are more attracted to him. Remember that one of the biggest things people fear is rejection, and that fear can drive many of your emotions. So, do you think that perhaps you feel differently towards men who are emotionally secure to you vs. those who generate a fear of rejection? If I look at the ones who treated me like crap - yeah I guess I did fear rejection from them. The last one, I had gotten to the point were I didn't feel as though I could do better, and I was afraid to lose him - even thought it turned out into my best interest. It's not the fear of being alone - it's the fear of never being able to find someone. I'm comfortable with out having a bf, but that doesn't mean I don't want to day. Now the man who treats me good - I also worry that I will get rejected. But (I don't know if this makes any sense) it's like a different kind of worry.
Cobra_X30 Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 If I look at the ones who treated me like crap - yeah I guess I did fear rejection from them. The last one, I had gotten to the point were I didn't feel as though I could do better, and I was afraid to lose him - even thought it turned out into my best interest. It's not the fear of being alone - it's the fear of never being able to find someone. I'm comfortable with out having a bf, but that doesn't mean I don't want to day. Now the man who treats me good - I also worry that I will get rejected. But (I don't know if this makes any sense) it's like a different kind of worry. That makes total sense! It's a different type of relationship... so that means it should generate a different kind of feeling. So, with this "nice guy" what kind of fear do you have? Does it feel like maybe he will decide he can do better someday? That feeling can sometimes trigger a defense mechanism that will lower your attraction level. Remember that emotion based attraction occurs most often on an instinctual level. Which means you have to work harder to fix it, when it isn't working properly.
twice_shy Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Well look at nature. In the primate world, its da @sshole chimp/ape/gorilla/monkey that goes around pushing the other primates around, pushing his manhood in high gear. And he is the one that gets to bone the female. So maybe us nice guys can take our cues from that. Let our inner macho arrogance shine through, and we can clean up!!
Author dreamergrl Posted March 19, 2008 Author Posted March 19, 2008 That makes total sense! It's a different type of relationship... so that means it should generate a different kind of feeling. So, with this "nice guy" what kind of fear do you have? Does it feel like maybe he will decide he can do better someday? That feeling can sometimes trigger a defense mechanism that will lower your attraction level. Remember that emotion based attraction occurs most often on an instinctual level. Which means you have to work harder to fix it, when it isn't working properly. Oh geeze yeah I think he'll find better. And not because I don't like who I am. I don't want to go into details because it's not something I share with a lot of people, but I'm sick. I have a health problem - and it could effect my future. I had talked to him about this, after a few weeks, because I don't want vest time into something when it may not work out for this reason. He's alright with it, but I worry that that may change down the road. To some it could be a deal breaker. I guess in a sense sometimes it felt easier being treated like crap because those men didn't care about it, they just wanted to feel that level of being better then me.
carhill Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 So maybe us nice guys can take our cues from that. Let our inner macho arrogance shine through, and we can clean up!! That's our base nature passed on genetically from our primitive ancestors. Part of evolution is just that, evolving One might only look at the evolution of women during the brief history of the existence of the United States as guidance. It is inevitable for men to evolve as well. Evolution is a painful, brutish thing. Many give their lives and souls in its furnace, forging a new world of existence. I see our existence and contribution as a mere spec of sand on the beach of evolution; infinitesimal but important. As the arbiters of the future (in nature's scheme), IMO, it is the responsibility of the female to mate and share the socialization of offspring with a male whom she decides is a positive contribution to that evolution. Only she can propagate the species. It's a pretty awesome responsibility. Such is why I've always respected women, even when they've treated me like shyte. OP, sorry to hear about your health problem. Perhaps not what you want to hear, but IMO today is your future. Each precious moment of it. Don't let anyone tell you different
twice_shy Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 That's our base nature passed on genetically from our primitive ancestors. Part of evolution is just that, evolving Well then that settles it. I'm gonna start acting like Clyde on Every Which Way But Loose. "Right turn Clyde"
Cobra_X30 Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Oh geeze yeah I think he'll find better. And not because I don't like who I am. I don't want to go into details because it's not something I share with a lot of people, but I'm sick. I have a health problem - and it could effect my future. I had talked to him about this, after a few weeks, because I don't want vest time into something when it may not work out for this reason. He's alright with it, but I worry that that may change down the road. To some it could be a deal breaker. I guess in a sense sometimes it felt easier being treated like crap because those men didn't care about it, they just wanted to feel that level of being better then me. Any chance that your mentally trying to push him away? Do you ever find yourself wanting to test his love for you? I don't think you have anything to worry about. I think he likes you as you are, and sees real value in you! Remember he described himself as laid back. Guys like that tend to just enjoy each day as it comes, and as long as you add value to his life, he will continue to love and appreciate you. You might be wrestling with your own insecurities/self defense mechanisms.
Author dreamergrl Posted March 19, 2008 Author Posted March 19, 2008 Any chance that your mentally trying to push him away? Do you ever find yourself wanting to test his love for you? I don't think you have anything to worry about. I think he likes you as you are, and sees real value in you! Remember he described himself as laid back. Guys like that tend to just enjoy each day as it comes, and as long as you add value to his life, he will continue to love and appreciate you. You might be wrestling with your own insecurities/self defense mechanisms. It's possible. I've been wrestling with insecurity long before I even got sick. I actually had a good handle on my insecurities - and I'm regaining that handle.. It's a process. It's so nice to hear something positive Thank you!
NuTuDating Posted March 19, 2008 Posted March 19, 2008 Well then that settles it. I'm gonna start acting like Clyde on Every Which Way But Loose. "Right turn Clyde" That's awesome. I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes that primate.
the_backstabber Posted March 26, 2008 Posted March 26, 2008 (edited) Hi, I'm a new poster but long time lurker. IMO, the reason why nice guys seem to turn women off is caused by several issues. I'm going to clump both the genuine nice guys and the "nice guys" since both are one and the same and use the same behavior patterns in interpersonal relationships. Major issue: Assertiveness the several issues: 1. Majority of nice guys were raised by women (a high amount from dysfunctional families, with this I don't only mean parents who were psychotic or druggies) who conditioned these boys based on a woman's point of view on how to treat women i.e- the women are not seen as people but are either put on a pedestal, adulated and objectified with the boy thinking that to get women the boy needs to be "nice", groveling, agreeing, care-taking, "sensitive" and the what not to keep the relationship stable. A stable (not necessarily absent) father figure was not usually present. 2. This behavior caused autonomic suppression on the boys part as he thinks that only his partners emotions, decisions, opinions etc matter and to break this by expressing his own would spell doom on his part. 3. The boy instead uses care-taking behavior (gift giving, doing errands etc mostly unnecessary or minor) patterns to fix things (fights, quarrels or to prevent these from happening) in a relationship to keep it stable and fit. 4. Instead of doing number 3, theres always the option of passive aggressiveness. This is the most frustrating tactic and also the most efficient behavior for nice guys as its very covert and sublime. It makes them keep the nice guy persona but lets them vent out their autonomy (by preventing quarrels and disputes). "You think that he's nice but theres something about him that annoys the sh*t out of you". 5. Since 1-4 outlines the loss of autonomy, the boys partner thinks that the boy is a pushover ( and boring because his life revolves around the relationship only) and cannot stand on his own. How then, can he stand for his partner when the situation calls for it? (I know that women today are on equal par with men, but I would love my partner even more when she's there for me when called upon). This shifts a heavy burden on the partner's part. Leaving them to make the decisions. 6.The relationship is one way=the boys way. "Leave the decisions to the partner, sit back and relax" (there is also fear in the boys head that if he expresses autonomy, he's doomed) . Manipulate the situation using passive aggressiveness and care-taking (usually to get the boys needs met). 7. Normal women are naturally repelled by this as they feel objectified but cant seem to pick it out. Dysfunctional women cannot pick this out and will play out the dance with this person long enough until they drain each other dry. 8. Nice guys are usually resentful and dishonest. Resentful because autonomy is taken away and dishonest because when autonomy is taken away the needs are not met and the nice guy strives to achieve to meet these needs by using covert tactics. Dishonesty is also in part to keep the nice guy persona. Everything about him has to look squeeky clean to other people. Even if it means lying about certain undesirable traits, flaws imperfections, mistakes he possesses. This illusion of perfection turns women off as the person can be made to feel unattainable and the woman feels resentful and worthless as she herself is human and not perfect in any way. 9. Nice guy is not an appropriate term. People who are nice achieve a balance in their life. Meaning they do whats best for them (don't push me over, I can stand on my own) and contribute equally and appropriately when needed (caring not care taking) in a relationship. 10. Nice guys are no different from jerks or bad boys. They both strive for one thing: To get their needs met. Selfishly. Edited March 26, 2008 by the_backstabber added comments
Little Shy Posted March 26, 2008 Posted March 26, 2008 (edited) I feel like there have been sooo many inflamatary posts lately! Am I alone with this thought?? Is Mercury in retrograde or what? So sorry Dreamergirl that you are suffering from a health issue. I hope that you are able to recover well on the other end of it! I guess there are a number of things, life circumstances handed to us or brought on ourselves that can make us feel some how "less suitable" as a dating partner. Some other things that come to mind might be, unemployed, poor credit or financial issues, failed marriages, single parent, rough pasts, scary family. I think it is sad that one would have to consider that their health being imperfect would make them potentially less desirable! I don't mean to sound really forward, but kind of sounds like something you might want to talk to someone about, have you? Anyhow, on the bad boy subject, I have been a victim to this vein of interest myself. Well, I guess victim is a poor choice of words, as I have made the decisions myself. Hey, maybe that was a Freudian slip! Perhaps we engage in these relationships with these men to remain in the "Victim" role? Anyway, what kind of bad boy is it you like to date? Always the ones that treat you poorly? You know, there are PLENTY of bad boys out there that are "bad" in different sort of ways, but treat their woman like gold. And when I say gold, I mean shower you with attention, and love, are completely reliable, there when you would like or need them to be, very loyal, never cheat, want families, great parents, bread winners, like to pay for you, etc. If this sounds impossible, I swear it is not. I have dated 2 such men in my life. When I look back in retrospect, these "bad boys" treated me better than almost any of my other boyfriends. And, I have also dated the type of bad boy that was bad mostly to WOMEN. In these cases, players & cheaters, not physically abusive. Maybe you should try a recovered ex con so you can get your Prison Break fantasies on, or what have you, but just find the type that has done enough hard time (I'd recommend 5 year plus) that when he has a woman, he is going to make sure he does everything right so he NEVER risks losing you. It's amazing how much a man can come to appreciate a woman when he hasn't had contact with one for 5 years plus! Edited March 26, 2008 by Little Shy
Uchiha Sasuke Posted March 26, 2008 Posted March 26, 2008 You know I've always seemed to find the men who want to have sex right away, and this one is different - he wants to wait - which I have no issues with - but its also strange to me. Maybe he's not as physically attractive as you THINK he is? Have you initiated any physical moves? Has he backed down or pushed away? Is he a virgin? First off, I'm a nice guy. I do nice things. I'm nice to people. I like people. Girls are attracted to me. I'm nice. I'm sexual. BUT.... I'm not SUPPLICATING. Keyword! I don't know if anyone has used that word yet. I don't think you should blame past relationships for feeling how you feel. You yourself said you don't want to be treated like crap again. So there was something else? Confidence? The fact that these"bad" guys had a life of their own and you were a pleasant accessory to it? - You weren't the main focus of it. A woman should never the the main focus of a guy's life. Maybe that's what's bugging you. Do you think maybe he's finding his identity through you? Any man could treat you good. Treating you good isn't the only thing you need. If you're not attracted to your man then you're with him out of pity. You've stated that you're LOSING attraction, not GAINING interest in him. This doesn't look good. It's not your fault. If you break up with him and you find a jerk, you will regret losing him. Being with a great guy like him is just something that you will have to get use to. She's not into dating bad boys! THIS ISN'T WHAT THIS THREAD'S ABOUT. I wish people would stop bringing it up. The man seems overly supplicating and willing to give too much too early. I think that's what's making her lose the attraction for him.
twice_shy Posted March 27, 2008 Posted March 27, 2008 Blackbird's reply made me realize that one of the problems I have with nice guys is that I don't know if they love me for me or if they just love the idea of being in a relationship. Basically, while most guys think they're just being nice, to me it seems like some of them were bypassing major incompabilities just to have a girlfriend. In the mix of 'nice guys', you also find the needy ones. I think it's the same with nice girls. Some of them truly are nice, well-balanced and ready to build a strong relationship with the right partner, some of them are insecure and become doormats because they need a relationship, any relationship, to feel esteemed. Well then just stick with the bad boys and jerks and take whatever they throw your way without complaint.
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