Bad Boys / Good Guys

[Kamille]

In dating bad boys, they create drama due to uncertainty. In reality, most do this because they essentially don't care enough to keep it consistent. The result of this is that it keeps you on your toes and makes you crave the highs. This isn't healthy.

 

Sorry to threadjack Dreamergrl:

 

I have received countless versions of this advice and I read and reread it but it doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how it applies to me or why it applies to me.

 

I'm strong and I'm independant but nice guys often assume that all I want is to be married and have their kids and I get caught up in this weird scenarios where I feel that my priorities no longer count. Does that make sense?

[Stockalone]

If I don't date a nice guy after the bad boy, then I'll never date a nice guy lol.

 

No he really is very laid back. He's come out and said it himself. His way of thinking is "go with the flow" "do whatever". If I ask him what he wants to do, it's whatever I want to do, regardless if he doesn't want to.

 

I don't want drama, my ex provided enough to last a life time. He's just now finally starting to go away - and it wasn't me keeping him around. He was getting close to psycho stalker.

 

I agree with what carhill said. Just wanted to add a few things.

 

Instead of asking him what he wants to do, you could try asking him to choose between two options. For example: "Would you like to go to restaurant A or B tonight? What do you like better, A or B?"

 

That way, while still doing things you like, he should become more comfortable to make decisions and eventually tell you what he likes instead of always doing what you want.

 

And I think there is a difference in being laid back, going along with what you want because he is fine with it anyway or doing things he doesn't really want to, just to please you. That is alright every now and then but if it happens all the time, then that is the behaviour of a doormat.

 

And as far as not liking the drama, you could just as easily be turned off even more once you think of him as boring, even if it's subconscious. Once a man is considered too predictable and too available by a woman, most of the women will get bored and the nice guy is doomed. I think that is what carhill was referring to when he said that the bad guys have an "edge". The bad guys do keep you on your toes, the nice guys usually don't.

 

In my opinion, that is why you are starting to feel less attracted.

[Trialbyfire]

Sorry to threadjack Dreamergrl:

 

I have received countless versions of this advice and I read and reread it but it doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how it applies to me or why it applies to me.

 

I'm strong and I'm independant but nice guys often assume that all I want is to be married and have their kids and I get caught up in this weird scenarios where I feel that my priorities no longer count. Does that make sense?

Your sitch is different from Dreamergrl's, so I'm going to try to mesh them. To attempt to generalize something that can't really be generalized, I think you have to break it down to two types of this style of men:

1. There's the very selfish guy, who always sees their personal needs as priority one and will never meet your needs. In essence, they tend to use. It's why they can only fuel for awhile, in that it's not true caring for you that causes them to put in the effort to "get" you. It's a means to an end that once they get what they want, they stop pretending.
   
2. There's the guy who's "bad for you". Somewhere, somehow, there's a bad dynamic. Incompatibility.
   

While you maybe a strong and independent woman, I think you have difficulty saying no or drawing a line, to/with someone you have feelings for. This is applicable to both situations.

 

In either situation, you have to push back and assert yourself.

 

In situation #1, the guy will probably wander off, which is for the best in the long run. In situation #2, if the guy really cares, he'll try to find some middle ground with you.

[dreamergrl]

I agree with what carhill said. Just wanted to add a few things.

 

Instead of asking him what he wants to do, you could try asking him to choose between two options. For example: "Would you like to go to restaurant A or B tonight? What do you like better, A or B?"

 

That way, while still doing things you like, he should become more comfortable to make decisions and eventually tell you what he likes instead of always doing what you want.

 

And I think there is a difference in being laid back, going along with what you want because he is fine with it anyway or doing things he doesn't really want to, just to please you. That is alright every now and then but if it happens all the time, then that is the behaviour of a doormat.

 

And as far as not liking the drama, you could just as easily be turned off even more once you think of him as boring, even if it's subconscious. Once a man is considered too predictable and too available by a woman, most of the women will get bored and the nice guy is doomed. I think that is what carhill was referring to when he said that the bad guys have an "edge". The bad guys do keep you on your toes, the nice guys usually don't.

 

In my opinion, that is why you are starting to feel less attracted.

 

Thanks for the response. Those are great ideas. I'll try that out this weekend! I have told him that his thoughts on what we do is just as important. I'll do the option a or option b thing.

[carhill]

Yes, it's possible to be good and loving yet unpredictable. The key is never losing sight of yourself (I'm speaking from a guy's standpoint right now). If you lose yourself to the relationship, you're doomed. This is what killed my marriage (my part of it). I became a martyr to the relationship and didn't communicate my needs properly. My wife now thinks of me as a doormat (not in a bad way, just that she expects a certain behavior) and it's hard to change that mindset.

 

I've noticed that, after purposely being quiet more (I'm usually a chatterbox ), she comes around wondering what I'm doing. If she doesn't, I don't care; I just do what I enjoy and interact with her and show her affection when I feel it. If she can adapt, our marriage will survive; regardless, I need to reclaim myself

[Kamille]

Your sitch is different from Dreamergrl's, so I'm going to try to mesh them. To attempt to generalize something that can't really be generalized, I think you have to break it down to two types of this style of men:

1. There's the very selfish guy, who always sees their personal needs as priority one and will never meet your needs. In essence, they tend to use. It's why they can only fuel for awhile, in that it's not true caring for you that causes them to put in the effort to "get" you. It's a means to an end that once they get what they want, they stop pretending.
   
2. There's the guy who's "bad for you". Somewhere, somehow, there's a bad dynamic. Incompatibility.
   

While you maybe a strong and independent woman, I think you have difficulty saying no or drawing a line, to/with someone you have feelings for. This is applicable to both situations.

 

In either situation, you have to push back and assert yourself.

 

In situation #1, the guy will probably wander off, which is for the best in the long run. In situation #2, if the guy really cares, he'll try to find some middle ground with you.

 

That does make sense. I seem to meet a lot of incompatible men. But that's most likely because you're right, I do have difficulty drawing the lines with people I care for. Especially since the guy I go for are usually pretty strong-willed.

 

End of threadjack.

[dreamergrl]

That does make sense. I seem to meet a lot of incompatible men. But that's most likely because you're right, I do have difficulty drawing the lines with people I care for. Especially since the guy I go for are usually pretty strong-willed.

 

End of threadjack.

 

I too have problems drawing lines - so what makes me so much more doomed???

[Yamaha]

This is very true

I can't say the attraction is completely gone - I do like him, and enjoy being with him by all means. I have no desire to repeat the bad boy era

 

I see the word friend coming from your lips next. Most nice guys are used to being friends with women because the attraction fades if they don't keep up the drama.

[dreamergrl]

I see the word friend coming from your lips next. Most nice guys are used to being friends with women because the attraction fades if they don't keep up the drama.

 

Actually the word FRIEND is NOT coming to my lips. I have interest in him, and want to continue dating him - other wise I wouldn't ask things I can do to keep the attraction there. If I just want to be friends with him, I'd say so and move on - I don't like playing games and stringing men a long. I'm learning from my past relationships and trying to go forward thank you very much.

[Kamille]

I too have problems drawing lines - so what makes me so much more doomed???

 

I'm not sure I understand. Do you feel much more doomed then me or did you get the impression we were saying you were more doomed.

 

I guess I think we have a lot of similarities Dreamergrl and I was never really satisfied with the "you're addicted to drama highs" advice. Fact is, I don't like drama highs. The reason why I like unavailable guys is because I find them to be pretty drama free since they don't threaten my personnal space or my perceptions of myself.

 

I have a really hard time letting myself be vulnerable with people, mostly because I feel like I lose myself in relationships, precisely because I have a hard time drawing the line.

 

Thanks for this thread, it's helping me out Dreamergrl .

[dreamergrl]

I'm not sure I understand. Do you feel much more doomed then me or did you get the impression we were saying you were more doomed.

 

I guess I think we have a lot of similarities Dreamergrl and I was never really satisfied with the "you're addicted to drama highs" advice. Fact is, I don't like drama highs. The reason why I like unavailable guys is because I find them to be pretty drama free since they don't threaten my personnal space or my perceptions of myself.

 

I have a really hard time letting myself be vulnerable with people, mostly because I feel like I lose myself in relationships, precisely because I have a hard time drawing the line.

 

Thanks for this thread, it's helping me out Dreamergrl .

 

No other people said the relationship I'm pursing right now is doomed because I've fallen into the bad boy issue.

 

I hate drama as well - I look back on my last relationship and I was always being forgiving, and letting things go - I hated that I became like that.

At the same time, I'm not used to being treated nice - and while I enjoy - it's new water for me, and with some things "new" scares me.

 

I've learned to draw lines better because I finally stopped saying "okay I forgive you" to my ex - as had been trying to get back with me after we broke up and I moved on.

 

I want to be with someone who does treat me nice - I think part of my problem is I get attracted to what I know, not what I need.

[Saxis]

Yes, it's possible to be good and loving yet unpredictable. The key is never losing sight of yourself (I'm speaking from a guy's standpoint right now). If you lose yourself to the relationship, you're doomed. This is what killed my marriage (my part of it). I became a martyr to the relationship and didn't communicate my needs properly. My wife now thinks of me as a doormat (not in a bad way, just that she expects a certain behavior) and it's hard to change that mindset.

 

I've noticed that, after purposely being quiet more (I'm usually a chatterbox ), she comes around wondering what I'm doing. If she doesn't, I don't care; I just do what I enjoy and interact with her and show her affection when I feel it. If she can adapt, our marriage will survive; regardless, I need to reclaim myself

 

Sounds all too familiar. My X wanted/wants to "work things out" after she left for 6 months. It was just enough time for me to drop the doormat habit. Now like you said, I can and will be responsive and affectionate (not to the X, although it drives her bonkers that I'm not broken down anymore ) when I feel like it. Otherwise, I have my own life and agenda to look after! Well said...

 

I see the word friend coming from your lips next. Most nice guys are used to being friends with women because the attraction fades if they don't keep up the drama.

 

That's the first thing I thought too. It's nearly in line with the somewhat humorous scenario I posted. It's what my XW did to me at first, before divorce was mentioned. I believe when she says she's not interested in this though. 1 month of time wouldn't be worth pulling the friend card. My X did it because we have a daughter and it was a way to keep me hanging while she could sponge off my income and security.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Saxis

[backspn]

Bad boys always look more appealing in the first few months of dating. They are a challenge and unpredictable. Once you become exclusive he will remain the bad boy and you wish you had the nice guy. I think you are just having doubts, which is normal in relationships.

 

He is available, he's kind and he treats you well. Isnt that what women want in a partner?

[dreamergrl]

Bad boys always look more appealing in the first few months of dating. They are a challenge and unpredictable. Once you become exclusive he will remain the bad boy and you wish you had the nice guy. I think you are just having doubts, which is normal in relationships.

 

He is available, he's kind and he treats you well. Isnt that what women want in a partner?

 

It very much so is what I want - just not what I'm used to.

[carhill]

Another scenario:

 

If someone has issues with intimacy, it's easier to have a more superficial and distracting relationship with a bad boy, because you know you'll never have to get into those deep recesses that you fear.

 

My female friend calls these "convenient relationships" because they fulfill superficial needs like companionship, sex, money, things, etc, without the examination of oneself that comes with complete intimacy.

 

OTOH, with the man who looks to fulfill and explore those intimate recesses, one feels vulnerable and anxious and insecure and, with no superficial drama to distract one, it can be a scary situation. Imagine looking into his eyes and knowing that he wants to be in *that* part of you, the part that's still a child in some ways, that criticizes what it sees in the mirror, etc, etc...

 

Anyway, that's my lunchtime psych babble for today

[Kamille]

Another scenario:

 

If someone has issues with intimacy, it's easier to have a more superficial and distracting relationship with a bad boy, because you know you'll never have to get into those deep recesses that you fear.

 

My female friend calls these "convenient relationships" because they fulfill superficial needs like companionship, sex, money, things, etc, without the examination of oneself that comes with complete intimacy.

 

OTOH, with the man who looks to fulfill and explore those intimate recesses, one feels vulnerable and anxious and insecure and, with no superficial drama to distract one, it can be a scary situation. Imagine looking into his eyes and knowing that he wants to be in *that* part of you, the part that's still a child in some ways, that criticizes what it sees in the mirror, etc, etc...

 

Anyway, that's my lunchtime psych babble for today

 

Well that makes a lot of sense to me. I always feel like nice guys are going to crush me for some reason. I can't really figure out why. I'm happy on my own... Why would I let someone into the nooks and cranies only to face my deepest fears?

[dreamergrl]

Another scenario:

 

If someone has issues with intimacy, it's easier to have a more superficial and distracting relationship with a bad boy, because you know you'll never have to get into those deep recesses that you fear.

 

My female friend calls these "convenient relationships" because they fulfill superficial needs like companionship, sex, money, things, etc, without the examination of oneself that comes with complete intimacy.

 

OTOH, with the man who looks to fulfill and explore those intimate recesses, one feels vulnerable and anxious and insecure and, with no superficial drama to distract one, it can be a scary situation. Imagine looking into his eyes and knowing that he wants to be in *that* part of you, the part that's still a child in some ways, that criticizes what it sees in the mirror, etc, etc...

 

Anyway, that's my lunchtime psych babble for today

 

You know I've always seemed to find the men who want to have sex right away, and this one is different - he wants to wait - which I have no issues with - but its also strange to me.

[Stockalone]

"He is available, he's kind and he treats you well. Isnt that what women want in a partner?"

 

It very much so is what I want - just not what I'm used to.

 

No other people said the relationship I'm pursing right now is doomed because I've fallen into the bad boy issue.

 

I don't think that you are missing the drama or that the relationship is already doomed. I think it has more to do with missing the excitement that the bad boys provide. With the bad boys the excitement tends to turn into drama, but excitement doesn't always have to lead to drama.

 

To quote carhill: "Yes, it's possible to be good and loving yet unpredictable. The key is never losing sight of yourself (I'm speaking from a guy's standpoint right now)."

 

Personally, I have to admit that I was never able to find that balance. And in my experience, most nice guys cannot provide that excitement on their own. They associate excitement with being a bad boy and can't or won't go there.

 

But who knows, with your help, your nice guy may become the kind of man that not only will provide you with enough excitement to keep you interested but will also remain the caring guy that treats you well. Those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. Good luck!

[NuTuDating]

I've run into quite a few girls who keep going for the "bad guys". Many of them do date on a very shallow, superficial level. Seems like they need the guy to keep them entertained. Most of these girls were shallow themselves and couldn't entertain themselves if they tried. This wasn't always the case, some just didn't want to admit to anyone that they enjoyed knitting.

 

OP, are you happy being single? Truly happy. Content to spend time by yourself?

 

Again, there seems to be a general consensus that the guy has to keep a woman entertained. Frankly, I don't meet that many women who can keep me entertained, either. That's why I have a hobby or two or three.

[carhill]

Tell me about that

 

Seriously, I think this is good work. Think about it. The loving, caring man has much more potential to be a willing long-term partner, IMO. So, what you have to work out with him (it takes work by you too) is what you each need to keep the relationship fresh and vital. Some "nice guys", like myself, have sensitive nervous systems so we're always in tune with our partners feelings and needs; this is something I've had to learn to block out, mainly because it drove my wife nuts

 

Just step back and look at the upside potential here, and I'm in no way trying to sell myself; I think it's an important dynamic to help women choose and stay with the type of man who's healthy for her. I stake no claim as to whether it's the bad boy or nice guy (or something in between). I merely want to help promote an understanding

[dreamergrl]

I've run into quite a few girls who keep going for the "bad guys". Many of them do date on a very shallow, superficial level. Seems like they need the guy to keep them entertained. Most of these girls were shallow themselves and couldn't entertain themselves if they tried. This wasn't always the case, some just didn't want to admit to anyone that they enjoyed knitting.

 

OP, are you happy being single? Truly happy. Content to spend time by yourself?

 

Again, there seems to be a general consensus that the guy has to keep a woman entertained. Frankly, I don't meet that many women who can keep me entertained, either. That's why I have a hobby or two or three.

 

I don't need to be in a relationship to be happy. I'm a good person with our with out a boyfriend.

 

I can admit though, I'd had problems finding good relationships. Some have thought that problem roots down to not having a good father in my life - but I don't like place blame on my personal life and choices due to my up bringing.

 

I do feel though, that I want to find a relationship that will lead me to the next stages of my life (getting married/having a family).

[NuTuDating]

I don't need to be in a relationship to be happy. I'm a good person with our with out a boyfriend.

 

I can admit though, I'd had problems finding good relationships. Some have thought that problem roots down to not having a good father in my life - but I don't like place blame on my personal life and choices due to my up bringing.

 

I do feel though, that I want to find a relationship that will lead me to the next stages of my life (getting married/having a family).

 

I wasn't asking if you were a good person. I don't doubt that you're a good person at all, so I hope you didn't think that's what I meant.

 

Frankly, I don't see how "bad boys" would make great parents or faithful husbands. It seems that's why guys like ME keep running into single mothers. Husbands cheated, didn't care and just ran off with someone else, don't pay child support, beat their wives, etc. I've seen this WAY too often.

 

But I bet those guys were as exciting as hell that first month.

[carhill]

I can admit though, I'd had problems finding good relationships. Some have thought that problem roots down to not having a good father in my life - but I don't like place blame on my personal life and choices due to my up bringing.

 

While "blame" assigned to others can be seen as avoiding responsibility, and I think that's why you avoid using the label, it's good to be "aware" of the realities of our histories and their effects on our psychology. After all, our brains were formed within the furnace of our mother's womb and the nuclear family (of whatever type) that we were raised in. Acknowledging that history, IMO, is key to moving forward. Even though I thought I had an "easy" childhood, there were still behavior formations and reinforcements which affected my relationships later in life. One of those is what created the mindset which made me a "nice guy" or "doormat", take your pick

 

My wife had a very tenuous childhood, with a lot of insecurities, and this has created polarity in our relationship, as we look at things from a completely different perspective. That's what MC is attempting to bridge, along with teaching us better communication skills.

 

My wife, when presented examples of "bad boy" friends we have, says emphatically that she would never marry someone like that. But, OTOH, she seems to find me "boring". A classic conundrum

[dreamergrl]

I wasn't asking if you were a good person. I don't doubt that you're a good person at all, so I hope you didn't think that's what I meant.

 

Frankly, I don't see how "bad boys" would make great parents or faithful husbands. It seems that's why guys like ME keep running into single mothers. Husbands cheated, didn't care and just ran off with someone else, don't pay child support, beat their wives, etc. I've seen this WAY too often.

 

But I bet those guys were as exciting as hell that first month.

 

My point was a man doesn't change the view point I have on myself.

I never said a bad boy would make a good parent ect ect - but I was saying what I want in my life is different then what I used to want. I'm passed the go out and party phase. I'm passed having meaningless sex. I want something with substance.

[Balthazar]

Unfortunately, sounds like dead man walking...