Why don't I think before I speak?

[daisygirl]

I need some honest advice about an argument H and I had last night. Here are my other threads for those who don't know my story:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t145326/

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t146507/

 

To update our situation, we are still planning on trying MC, but only for the sake of our son. Other than that, it basically feels like we are living separate lives, just in the same house. My H even said the other day that he doesn't think of me as a wife, or even a friend anymore.

 

So, yesterday, we had an "okay" day - no arguments, but we didn't really spend all that much time together, either. H went to bed before me, and when I got up there, he started trying to have sex with me. I told him no. Then, I blurted out (me not thinking before I speak) that I felt like he was just using me. He got so pissed and it started a huge argument. He said that I'm not that sexy or beautiful, so why would he want to use me for sex. I told him I didn't mean it that way, I just meant that we're not exactly living together as husband and wife, so I felt like he just wanted sex from me because I was there, not because of any good feelings he has for me. I should have just told him I was too tired for sex. Why did I have to open my big mouth?

 

Well, he goes on to say, "Don't be upset when I f*** another woman!" I said nothing. What can I say to that? He also said that I always say stupid things, and also muttered some comments in his native language, so I didn't understand that part. He continues to argue, raising his voice. I was trying to calm him down - I told him I was sorry for saying it and I wish I could take it back. He said it was too late. He said I have way too many problems, and he hates to think that I will be raising our son, and that I will probably mess him up, too. He said to cancel the MC appt (2nd time he's told me to do this), and that I'm the one that needs counseling so I can "fix myself" before I do anything else. (I am in IC)

 

I admit that I do need to learn to think before I speak, I realize this is a problem of mine. But I think his reaction was a little much. It especially hurts me to think that he thinks I won't be a good mother to our son. Was what I said REALLY that bad? God, I wish I could just take it back.

[carhill]

Wow, you spoke the truth about your feelings and he handled it like an 8 year old child. Yeah, beat yourself up...

 

I've been the male version of this. Don't go there. It's a bad place.

 

IMO, do not go to MC for your son. Go for you and your husband. If you let the IC work, you'll see why I say this.

 

Now, I'll go refresh my memory from your past threads and see how well I did (or not)

[daisygirl]

Thank you for the response, Carhill. You're always a big help. I wanted to post it here so I could see if I was wrong in expressing my feelings or not. Sure, I could have lied and said I was tired or the cliche "headache" excuse. Or, I suppose I could have had sex with him anyway, wishing it was over the whole time.

 

I absolutely take responsibilty for our marriage problems...but I feel as though he's not owning up to his part. We both have to stop blaming each other. He still says it's 75% my fault, and that I will never change. He also slept in the spare bedroom last night.

 

I am finding that I am starting to believe what he says - maybe I am mostly the cause of our problems.

 

I feel so bad that my son is in the middle of all of this. Thank God we do agree on one thing - we won't argue in front of him. All I want is to do the right thing for him - he's innocent in all of this.

Edited March 18, 2008 by daisygirl

[carhill]

Part of validating yourself is being responsible for how you feel and honestly communicating it. Your spouse is used to a status quo and these changes are shocking to him. His maturity level is indicated by his response.

 

I think the IC is helping you. Talk about "you being mostly responsible for your marital problems" at your next session.

 

I see good things ahead for you.

[daisygirl]

Part of validating yourself is being responsible for how you feel and honestly communicating it. Your spouse is used to a status quo and these changes are shocking to him. His maturity level is indicated by his response.

 

I think the IC is helping you. Talk about "you being mostly responsible for your marital problems" at your next session.

 

I see good things ahead for you.

 

I hope good things are ahead for me. I need it! I am really trying to work on myself, and I don't think my H likes the changes I am making. I am standing up for myself more, and it seems to make him more aggressive.

 

I have an IC appt. on Thursday, so I'll be sure to bring that up, Carhill....thanks again!

[whichwayisup]

Your H's stubborness and ego trip he's on...How much of that is cultural, religion and just who he is, his views on women, marriage and how men/women are in a marriage?

 

Things won't change unless HE is willing to admit his faults, his part in the problems in the marriage. You can only do so much.

[TheRain]

 

Well, he goes on to say, "Don't be upset when I f*** another woman!"

 

Are you sure he is not doing that already?

 

He continues to argue, raising his voice. I was trying to calm him down - I told him I was sorry for saying it and I wish I could take it back. He said it was too late. He said I have way too many problems, and he hates to think that I will be raising our son, and that I will probably mess him up, too.

 

What's his native language and where was he from?

[daisygirl]

Your H's stubborness and ego trip he's on...How much of that is cultural, religion and just who he is, his views on women, marriage and how men/women are in a marriage?

 

Things won't change unless HE is willing to admit his faults, his part in the problems in the marriage. You can only do so much.

 

I REALLY am starting to believe that the basis of a lot of our problems are based on our cultural differences. I don't believe his culture is "bad" or "wrong", I just can't say I agree with it all.

 

I am also thinking that he will never admit his faults. I don't know if MC will help with that or not, that is if he decided to actually go.

[daisygirl]

Are you sure he is not doing that already?

Pretty sure, yeah. Can't be 100% sure, of course, but I have never had any reason to suspect him. I'm the one that was tempted to cheat, although I never did - at least not physically.

 

 

What's his native language and where was he from?

He's from Turkey - speaks Turkish.

 

I never specified before because I didn't want any chance of someone figuring out who I am....lol....silly, I know.

Edited March 18, 2008 by daisygirl

[whichwayisup]

No, this has nothing to do with his actual religion, but it has alot to do with his culture and how he was brought up and how women fit into "mens" lives in a sense. Their role. Obviously him being in the USA has changed that, yet he still has certain views...

 

I hope he decides to go to MC with you.

[TheRain]

I REALLY am starting to believe that the basis of a lot of our problems are based on our cultural differences. I don't believe his culture is "bad" or "wrong", I just can't say I agree with it all.

 

I am also thinking that he will never admit his faults. I don't know if MC will help with that or not, that is if he decided to actually go.

 

How old was he when he first came to the United States? Is he Americanized....meaning does he socialize with American friends or Turkish friends?

[daisygirl]

No, this has nothing to do with his actual religion, but it has alot to do with his culture and how he was brought up and how women fit into "mens" lives in a sense. Their role. Obviously him being in the USA has changed that, yet he still has certain views...

 

I hope he decides to go to MC with you.

 

He told me to cancel the appt, but I haven't cancelled it yet....it's not until next Thursday, so we have some time.

 

How old was he when he first came to the United States? Is he Americanized....meaning does he socialize with American friends or Turkish friends?

 

He was 31 when he came here. Met me after about 5 months of being in the country, we got married almost immediately, less than 2 months after we met. We've now been married for 5 years.

 

He is SOMEWHAT Americanized, but no, he NEVER hangs out with American friends. Only Turkish friends. We don't really even have any mutual friends- never have.

[TheRain]

 

He was 31 when he came here. Met me after about 5 months of being in the country, we got married almost immediately, less than 2 months after we met. We've now been married for 5 years.

 

He is SOMEWHAT Americanized, but no, he NEVER hangs out with American friends. Only Turkish friends. We don't really even have any mutual friends- never have.

 

I understand that's not the point of this post, but I can't help it.

 

I thought he at least attended college here in U.S. How did you meet and why did you marry him in the first place if there is such a difference in views of the world between the two of you. I must ask, did he marry you for visa purpose?

[daisygirl]

I understand that's not the point of this post, but I can't help it.

 

I thought he at least attended college here in U.S. How did you meet and why did you marry him in the first place if there is such a difference in views of the world between the two of you. I must ask, did he marry you for visa purpose?

 

We met when he was working at a restaurant here in town - he now owns it.

 

Yes, he married me for his visa. Why did I marry him? God, I wish I had a good answer for that, but that's a whole therapy session. Briefly, I was young (22 - and, yes, I SHOULD have known better, even at that age, but I've learned a lot since then), and I have always been emotionally insecure. I was just in love with the idea that someone wanted to marry me. Something I am working on in IC - I need to learn how to be happy without depending on a relationship - whether with him or someone else.

 

Now it's 5 years later and we have a beautiful 2-year-old son. If it wasn't for our son, I'd have already left, but I have to think about what's best for him....

[surfcitysiren]

Dearest Daisy.....

 

I have just read your post and have to say my mouth is hanging wide open. Let me shut it.....there.....

 

I am posting a reply even before I go on to read anyone else's replies to your post. I have a few things to say....yes I do, by God.....

 

GIRL. YOU did not say or do anything wrong. Granted, I was not there to hear your tone of voice when you said it, and I realize that it's not always the words we use but the tone we say them in, but still.....

 

He got ANGRY and attacked YOU because you spoke the TRUTH. He does not want to take any responsibility for the relationship. It's easier to push all the blame/problems into your lap and be done with it.

 

Let's recap: This is a man who

 

A) (And I'm sorry to bring this up, but it must be said). Used you indirectly from the START. I won't get into all the reasons...you know what they are, and anyone who has read your previous posts will, too. I hate to bring it up, but it IS a factor, simply because you two have built your relationship from this foundation....

 

B) Has already told you, flat out, with no holds barred brutal honesty, that he is DONE with you and wants a divorce. (Please tell me where intimacy and sexual relations fits into this picture----OH! And wasn't HE the one who INFORMED you that you would need to take your pillow and blankie and go sleep in the spare room!? Yyyyyyyyeah.)

 

C) For him to initiate sex with you, under the circumstances, IS using you. If he had made an effort to be kind and get along during the day (more than the common courtesy/civility one would afford to a roomate, as you seem to be suggesting in your post) and he had initiated some sort of intimacy (non-sexual to start with) OUTSIDE the bedroom, THAT YOU HAD RESPONDED TO IN A POSITIVE WAY AND RECIPROCATED, then maaaaybe I could see this a bit more from his POV and see that your words could have stung and/or been rude or insensitive. HOWEVER, from what you've indicated, this is not the case. If you find a man on the couch watching a movie and you put a bowl of freshly popped popcorn in his lap, what's the chances he won't eat it? You know? He did not want YOU. He wanted to satisfy an urge in himself and you just happened to be there. End of story.

 

D) He put all his cards out on the table for you to see when he said that he basically thought maybe he'd go to counseling and sorta kinda just keep you around for a few years, but then divorce you anyway. Hello? Sweetheart, please hear me: This is a man who has most likely never had any TRUE regard/love/devotion/dedication/respect for you---and it's HIGHLY LIKELY for anyone ELSE, besides himself. He may or may not even be capable of truly loving anyone besides himself. You have GOT to stop blaming YOURSELF for this man's emotional/spiritual/mental deficencies. It's NOT YOUR FAULT if he is not capable of giving love in a healthy way that does not involve meeting HIS agenda. You may be 'mouthy', my darling, but YOU are not what's broken here. However, if you stay with this man, he will continue to project his brokenness onto you and you will become more and more broken over time.......

 

E) And did I mention STOP BLAMING YOURSELF? Just checking.

 

F) It must be said: This is a man who you aleady KNOW has a cultural mindset that goes against many (if not all) of the ideals and values YOU need and want in a marriage, eg: 1) It's 'acceptable' for the man to conduct extramarital affairs but not for the woman, etc, etc....... So, THAT ALONE....my goodness, sweetie! Let's say you go to marriage counseling and 'work it out'. UNLESS HIS WHOLE WAY OF RELATING NOT ONLY TO YOU BUT TO WOMEN IN GENERAL CHANGES, he is still going to have a *propensity* to behave in 'deal breaker' behavior down the line. Even IF you 'fix' it now...and even find in him your friend and lover, etc.....what's to say he won't be unfaithful, etc. to you in the future and *still* break your heart and leave you *right back to the place you are in NOW*?

 

G) It's noble that you want to make it work for the sake of your child. I would say if you were not dealing with such a mixed bag of tricks here and had more to work with that you should not give up on it....however....and please believe me when I say that I am truly ever so sorry to say this, but it simply appears not to be the case. IF you stay in this situation and allow your son to grow up in this environment, it will skew his perception of what a man is and what a woman is and what is the appropriate/healthy way of interacting. He will grow up and marry a very sweet young girl and treat her exactly the way he sees his father treating you. You are both modeling for him what he will come to see as 'normal and right' patterns of relating. And, newsflash: as much as he loves you and always will, even HE will begin to treat you with disdain and disrespect, because his father does. Studies have proven that the influence of the SAME SEX parent has the greatest impact on a child's development/self concept/emotional well being/growth/etc.... So I say, if anything, you need to remove him from this ENVIRONMENT. Note that I did not say from his FATHER. His father is always going to be his father and he is going to say and do whatever he's going to do when you are not around to skew his son's concept of who you are and there is nothing you can do about that. The only thing you can do is be consistent and loving with your son and let him form his OWN view of you over the course of his lifetime. Someday he will see everything as it TRULY is and see that his father was an emotional infant. But he does NOT need to witness the lack of empathy, warmth and common courtesy you are living with on an ongoing basis. You wonder what will really mess him up? THAT. If you love him, try to provide a different scenario for him to grow up in. Seriously.

 

Your husband is relating to you as his 'property', not as his wife, or his friend, or his lover.....He is excercizing his 'right' as your 'husband'. He puts a roof over your head, etc and he feels ENTITLED to you in whatever sense he wants to assign to you. If you were a dishwasher, he would not relate to you any differently. He puts the dishes in.....the dishwasher spits water all over the floor? NO. Something is wrong with the dishwashwer. He presses buttons and hits start and the dishwasher beeps and says, "No" ????? Oh, NO---something is wrong with that darn dishwashwer. Call the repairman, I'm exasperated with the stupid thing, it won't do what I want it to or what it's supposed to----FIX it. It's not ME, it's the darn dishwasher. And as moronic as that sounds, that is exactly how he is relating to you. He either TRULY believes the problem is YOU or else he is not capable of finding fault in himself. In either case, let's play this out:

 

1) the problem is the dishwasher (you). The repair person comes out (you go to MC and/or IC alone. YOU GET 'FIXED'. But what's going to happen is that HE is not going to change HIS pattern of relating to you. And when you DO really get 'fixed' you will be less and less willing/able to engage in unhealthy patterns of relating to him and his BS. And you'll probably see that and leave anyway. It takes two to 'fix' this thing....

 

2) He sees that he is *possibly* part of the problem. The repairman comes and tells him the problem but he is not willing/capable of seeing the problems from a different POV and keeps insisting that it's the DISHWASHER not doing what he wants/expects and so a lot of time and energy is spent going through spin cycles....he may even subscribe to a few pointers and half heartedly 'try' with you....but when that fails, as it will, IF HE IS NOT WILLING TO CHANGE/ACCEPT HIS PART OF THIS, then he will be right back to saying, "See? I told you. The dishwasher is broken. Not my fault. Give me a new dishwashwer"........

 

So you see......

 

Yes, you need to do your very best to communicate in a way that is clear, concise, not hysterical and civil **without** being a doormat or allowing him to twist things around and blame YOU for everything. You are living with a tyrannical 3 year old. Speak to him gently and with as much patience and kind firmness as you would a three year old having a tantrum on the floor of the supermarket. You wouldn't internalize the conniption fit of a 3 year old and beat yourself up over it, would you? Don't take on his, either. Just because he throws trash at you does NOT mean you are obligated to pick it up.....

 

Take care of yourself and your son and do what you need to do.

 

One last note: PLEASE speak with a *good* attorney. Because you hear about men like him who one day pack the kid off to their homeland and cannot be found....know the risks....learn the laws....watch for the signs....seriously. Research it on the web and arm yourself somehow. My fear would be that he is a flight risk. Just protect yourself and your son, sweetie. He's already shown you his wheels are turning up there because he already spoke to an attorney. DO NOT tell him when you consult one. You will only be providing him with counter intelligence. DO NOT be so paralyzed with fear for the future that you are shellshocked when he drops his next bomb on you. He has already shown you he is very shrewd....he is already laying out his future in his mind without YOU in it....don't think he's not thinking of the neatest way to cut you out of the picture completely....he is.....and he has already shown you he is unpredictable and runs hot and cold/plays mind games with you.......

 

Stop being a victim. Take charge. Stop letting him steamroll you and STOP blaming everything on yourself. YOU CAN DO THIS. You can do this......yes......you can........ Take care, hon. You are in my frequent thoughts......

 

SCSiren

[TheRain]

Yes, he married me for his visa.

 

I thought you didn't know.

 

Now, I know that you know. Are you avoiding or denying it as the truth?

[daisygirl]

I thought you didn't know.

 

Now, I know that you know. Are you avoiding or denying it as the truth?

 

Well, I knew, but I had convinced myself at the time that we would have gotten married anyway. Now I don't believe that. I denied it for a long time, and just recently (past year or less) have REALLY come to terms with it. But like I said before, we have a son we have to think about now. It's not just our marriage we'd be breaking up, it's the whole family.

[daisygirl]

Siren...

 

Thank you for your thoughtful post! Really - thank you SO much for taking the time to post all that. I hope you know it means a lot

[TheRain]

Well, I knew, but I had convinced myself at the time that we would have gotten married anyway. Now I don't believe that. I denied it for a long time, and just recently (past year or less) have REALLY come to terms with it. But like I said before, we have a son we have to think about now. It's not just our marriage we'd be breaking up, it's the whole family.

 

If you want to save your marriage and if you think you can save your marriage, do so. Try your best to convince him to go to counseling with you.

[TheRain]

Well, I knew, but I had convinced myself at the time that we would have gotten married anyway. Now I don't believe that. I denied it for a long time, and just recently (past year or less) have REALLY come to terms with it. But like I said before, we have a son we have to think about now. It's not just our marriage we'd be breaking up, it's the whole family.

 

If you want to save your marriage, you can't do it alone. You have to do your best to convince him to go to counseling with you. He has to change his attitute and respect for you. Otherwise, it will not last.

[Ladyjane14]

Now, H told me the other day that we're done, he doesn't want to try MC (to be fair, neither of us were optimistic about it, but I was at least willing to go), and he wants to divorce. He told me to sleep in the guest room and get a job ASAP and move out. He's going to fight me for full custody of our 2 y/o son.

 

But here's what he said to me last night...He still barely accepts any responsibility for our marriage failing. I admit, I made many mistakes, but he said his only mistake was working too much. He also said that when our son is old enough to understand, he's going to tell him that I was the one that mainly caused the divorce. This hurt me like you wouldn't believe. And he said that he'll never forgive me for causing the divorce. How am I supposed to handle that? I guess IC will help....I hope so.

 

Thinking back, I did mess up. I was unhappy for so long, and was too scared to say anything, so I ended up resenting my H. I should have had the guts to say something sooner. I always "suggested" MC to H and he said no, but I am sure I could have tried harder and been more honest with him from the beginning.

 

Has anyone else had a ex-spouse tell them that they will never forgive them? How do you deal with that? I can handle the M being over, but I can't deal with a statement like that.

 

I picked this one up from your other thread. Wow.

Your husband is an overbearing blowhard who doesn't let you talk. And while I haven't read every response to your other threads... I can surmise that the reason you've gotten into marital trouble to begin with is that you're being treated like a child who's expected to be seen and not heard.

 

Have you talked to a divorce attorney yet?

Because honestly, if I were you... I'd do it ASAP.

 

This guy isn't going to get any better. There's no incentive for him to change. You can lay down like a rug and let him walk all over you for the next 20 years and it won't make a damn bit of difference. All you'll be is 20 years older.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Ladyjane14

[TechDude]

All you'll be is 20 years older.

... and as worn as a 20 year old rug.

[daisygirl]

If you want to save your marriage, you can't do it alone. You have to do your best to convince him to go to counseling with you. He has to change his attitute and respect for you. Otherwise, it will not last.

 

Thanks for the input...I'm afraid it's too late for us, but I guess I could be wrong.

 

I picked this one up from your other thread. Wow.

Your husband is an overbearing blowhard who doesn't let you talk. And while I haven't read every response to your other threads... I can surmise that the reason you've gotten into marital trouble to begin with is that you're being treated like a child who's expected to be seen and not heard.

 

Have you talked to a divorce attorney yet?

Because honestly, if I were you... I'd do it ASAP.

 

This guy isn't going to get any better. There's no incentive for him to change. You can lay down like a rug and let him walk all over you for the next 20 years and it won't make a damn bit of difference. All you'll be is 20 years older.

 

Thanks, Ladyjane. I just contacted a friend who knows a good lawyer, so I am going to go see one soon. Unfortunately, I still don't have a job, and I have no money in my name, so I am not sure what I can do as far as hiring someone.

 

I also don't think my H is going to change. He's almost 37 years old, and with the cultural differences as well, he's pretty set in his ways. It still makes me sad that our marriage is (probably) over, but I can't see either of us being happy this way. I hope we can at least do a good job co-parenting, because our son means a whole lot to BOTH of us. But like you said, I cannot continue to lay down like a rug and let him walk all over me anymore, and when I do actually try and stand up for myself, as I have recently, he just gets more angry and has threatened kicking me out, taking our son, not giving me anything, etc. I'm kind of stuck for now. I'm at least being civil with him until I can find out my rights. I don't want to be left with nothing, seeing as how I am going to be a single mom.

 

... and as worn as a 20 year old rug.

 

No way I see myself with him in 20 years! I don't want to be a freaking rug anymore!!