Art_Critic Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 I have to ask, but has she made any effort to get to know you, understand you, ask questions about your life? That is a really good point WWIU... If the effort isn't there then maybe she just isn't into you enough to put the effort into dating one on one...
carhill Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 (edited) What is this "zone" or "zone talk" thing, carhill? Based on my past similar experiences (many over 20 years of being single), a woman who was minimally intimate with me (physical/emotional affection, not sex) but introduced me to her friends/family/kids, etc right away without fail put me in what LS'ers call the "friend zone". In retrospect, I think the purpose was to create a false sense of intimacy on my part, hooking me. I fell for it numerous times *smacks head*. I'm not saying that's what's going on here (obviously I don't know) but just saying to be watchful, especially if the next couple dates aren't more intimate (again, not sex but rather physical and emotional intimacy). Edited to add that my wife ran me by her friends and family (and they were brutal ), but she was full-on dating me with all the bells and whistles and flirtation and intimacy. There was no ambiguity. She has been married and divorced twice. Good luck! Edited March 15, 2008 by carhill
eDave Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 Many of you guys are saying that Nu should take her as a package and be OK with this and don't understand his frustration. What the hell? It goes both ways. If she likes him she will make time alone. Kids first? Of course but that kid has a father. Nu, doesn't sound like she is into you enough to spend time with the 2 of you. You have every right to have lost your patience. You have either lay it out there or leave. With that in my, remember what you said about her plans changing. That will happen A LOT. Oh and she should grant the father more time. I say this as a father without custody. I also say this because I think with this kind of approach to dating and possibly finding a new man, she is in for a world of hurt. Granting more time to father, frees her time to "live". (i am not saying having a daughter and caring for her is not way to live..) e
AussieJack Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 If she likes him she will make time alone. Kids first? Of course but that kid has a father. OK Nu, the essence of the problem is that you have been drawn into "her Frame". Ya dig ?. You are having to change the way YOU want to date to suit her life circumstances. Bad idea. She is setting the pace and creating the structure of your connection with you and using her daughter in some kind of "keep your distance " manuver...Wacky stuff? Yep,but nobody ever said women act rationally. The more that you mold and shape yourself to fit HER needs the more she will do this thing with the kiddo...eventually she will start disrespecting you because she has collapsed your limits and boundaries, and then you will get LJBFs .. YOu need to do two things - 1. Immediately find another women to date casually -this will erase the scarcity mentality and take you focus off this strage acting mom. 2. Break a date with " single mom" .. with little notice. You have become too predictable and lost your ointrigue with her .. BE unavailable and do not talk to her for two days. THis sounds childish BUT you need to crack her grip on your time and your feelings by taking control of YOUR own time. THis woman should be GRATEFUL for your attentions and not playing these stupid kiddies games. YOu see, you as a single man have freedom and choices . She has fewer of those as a single mother. YOu are in the stronger postion inherently, BUT she has taken control ,skillfully, and you are bewildered. Follow my advice - there is no charge -THIS time !!
City_girl Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 Nu, am really sorry to read this because I have read how you have wrestled with the issue of her having a daughter etc. You sound like a lovely man. I am afraid I would start wondering if I was knee deep in the friend zone too. I think Carhill is right. I have a daughter and men I date never meet her. The man I saw from November, whom I have known since October hasn't ever met her and we dated through Christmas. This woman doesn't date men like you, does she? She seems to like bad boys and I am afraid it sounds as tho she finds this kind of man sexy. What particularly alarmed me was when you said she bailed after kissing hmmm. Tread very carefully, you deserve a nice woman who won't decieve you (though she may not be purposefully doing so) and use you as an emotional crutch. You pay for her and you offer to pay for sitters but she declines, I'm afraid it's a big red flag to me. If I met a man like you he would have to peel me off every night not wonder at all if he was going to be able to kiss me. Hope I'm wrong, I really do
Touche Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 I thought Nicki gave you very good advice. And believe me, I understand your frustration having been single dating men with kids. At one point I said NEVER AGAIN! But yeah, I did it again. It was up to me to set the boundaries on that. I think you're going to have to do the same in a gentle way. Tell her that as much as you enjoy the time you all spend together, it would be very nice to spend more time with her alone. That's all you have to say. You don't have to get defensive or explain...just state what you want. Period. End of story. She'll either honor your wishes, as you have hers, or she won't. Might as well find out now whether she's just a taker, right?
Author NuTuDating Posted March 15, 2008 Author Posted March 15, 2008 Wow, I really appreciate all the advice. It's really very helpful because I do want to make sure I'm not being unreasonable. And sorry to have disappeared for a while, but we (the three of us) went to eat and then saw Horton Heard A Who (not so great, Madagascar is still my favorite). Anyways, she did grab my hand during the movie, which I thought was a good sign. She said she'd call me tomorrow (she always calls when she says she will) and we'd do something alone. And yeah, we have talked about pretty much everything under the sun and she does ask questions and show interest. No issues there. I'm pretty sure tomorrow is her test. I've taken the tests for her, now it's her turn. Sounds like a big freaking game, and I hate games. But I'm definitely not willing to end up in the friend zone. Thanks again for all the advice, and I'll let you know how she does on her exam!
Touche Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 Hey, good luck to you NTD. Sounds like you have the right attitude. The "games" stink but that's always the way it seems to be in the beginning of most relationships..push/pull. Before too long you'll have your answer as to whether you're really compatible or not. Hang in there! And yes, let us know how it goes, ok?
carhill Posted March 15, 2008 Posted March 15, 2008 OP, and I say this gently, try not to over-analyze things, like "she looked at me" or "she grabbed my hand" or "she rubbed my leg", etc. The important thing is that, overall, your desire for intimacy (or whatever you desire here) is clearly communicated and attempted to be met by your partner. If she attempts, that is a clear sign of interest and "caring". Very important. Again, don't over-analyze. I was very, very guilty of this when I was single. Took a lot of fun out of some otherwise fun times. Go with the flow...um, my wife taught me that
Author NuTuDating Posted March 16, 2008 Author Posted March 16, 2008 Well, better than last time anyways. Went to dinner, got a really long good night kiss before she had to go pick up her daughter. Grrrr...
whichwayisup Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Did you plan the next date? Hopefully alone? Atleast you got a kiss! Inquiring minds want to know..How was the conversation throughout the night?
carhill Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Jeez, drop the kiss bomb and leave us hanging! Oy!
whichwayisup Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Kind of what she did to him, now he's doing to us! Left us hanging!
AussieJack Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Well, better than last time anyways. Went to dinner, got a really long good night kiss before she had to go pick up her daughter. Grrrr... NTD - the danger here is that you are in her frame, THat means that you are attaching yourself to HER life rather that her joining yours. NOt a good situation You are spending time with her when it suits her and her daughter. Not good. THis creates a kind of scarcity mentality in guys in your position in which you 'hang' off her and and always feel like there is not enough of her and her time to satisfy your needs. Am I right ? Every text and every email from her IS a huge deal isn't it ?. Do you feel a sense of RELIEF when you hear from her ?
Author NuTuDating Posted March 16, 2008 Author Posted March 16, 2008 (edited) NTD - the danger here is that you are in her frame, THat means that you are attaching yourself to HER life rather that her joining yours. NOt a good situation You are spending time with her when it suits her and her daughter. Not good. THis creates a kind of scarcity mentality in guys in your position in which you 'hang' off her and and always feel like there is not enough of her and her time to satisfy your needs. Am I right ? Every text and every email from her IS a huge deal isn't it ?. Do you feel a sense of RELIEF when you hear from her ? This is fairly accurate, yes. Perhaps hard to admit, although I don't think she's doing this consciously. So what am I supposed to do in this situation? I've developed a backbone over the past few years, but I'm not really at the Leykis level of assishness. I'm not going to go canceling dates just to cancel dates or start dating someone else. For the rest - we didn't have the conversation about spending time alone. Her daughter is going to her fathers Wednesday through next Sunday because she's on spring break. We're definitely having a next date. Maybe I won't have to wait a whole week for this one, either. I have a feeling things are going to be fine. She started the kiss off with her tongue. Edited March 16, 2008 by NuTuDating
AussieJack Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 This is fairly accurate, yes. Perhaps hard to admit, although I don't think she's doing this consciously. So what am I supposed to do in this situation? I've developed a backbone over the past few years, but I'm not really at the Leykis level of assishness. I'm not going to go canceling dates just to cancel dates or start dating someone else. She started the kiss off with her tongue. I love the last sentence - there is a great 'line' in there somewhere too. I have been in your situation and I feel ya - I really do. Here is what you are doing wrong -. You are creating too much COMFORT and not enough ATTRACTION. The balance is all wrong. How do I know ? BEcause if this woman what really HOT for you she would find a way to be with you privately and be tearing at your pants. The daughter's ubiquitous presence says that she (the woman) feels so comfortable with you that she is willing to expose her daughter to you frequently. You get my thoughts here ? The tongue thing was her way of telling you so move it up a few gears - she is ready, but it is YOUR job to jump start yourself. I could write pages about this, but here is a clue. Kiss her for more than 12 seconds without a pause.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Well, better than last time anyways. Went to dinner, got a really long good night kiss before she had to go pick up her daughter. Grrrr... Why the gurrr? you finally got the great kiss you have been wanting no? I would have thought you would have been happy. NuTu I'm starting to think you want more sexually at this point and maybe shes not ready yet is that whats truly annoying you? I have a feeling things are going to be fine. She started the kiss off with her tongue. Again this makes me feel you want more then the kiss we kept hearing about in your previous posts. Look if you want sex thats ok your human but I don't think you two are on the same page far as its goes just yet!
whichwayisup Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 You are spending time with her when it suits her and her daughter. This is something that happens though when one dates someone who has children. Now she doesn't have to include her daughter in their dates as much, but she does have someone else (her kid) to think of most of the time. She just can't up and GO like most single folks can...Arrangements have to be made, and probably abit in advance too.
carhill Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 Yeah, that's a choice the OP made when choosing to date a single mother. IMO, her choice should be to, when having adult time, focus on him. That promotes equity. Short of an emergency with her daughter, her social life with him should be about him. Later, if they continue into a more relaxed relationship where they are spending a lot more time together, then he just becomes part of her family, including the daughter. I would imagine, if not started already, daughter is in the early stages of rebellion anyway, which will make for an interesting dynamic Hope the OP is ready for that... I do like AussieJack's tone here. If I were to be dating a single mom again, I would do things completely differently. The key word is dating. Options open. Looking around. Not putting all my sperm into the single mom's basket, so to speak. I can see now I was too attached. Hope the OP is watchful for that. I don't get the feeling the mom is too attached to him, just yet.
AussieJack Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 I don't get the feeling the mom is too attached to him, just yet. Exactly ! Why is this ? The answer lies in the OPs willingness to ACCOMODATE her and her relationship with her daughter. This is what I refered to as him creating too much 'comfort'. He has been willing to mold his time and actions to HER life circumstances. NOt a great idea. If she wants the BENEFITS and REWARDS of dating a good man then she should make some EFFORT to accomodate HIM and met his needs. All relationships cost both parties something. YOu girls cannot "have it all" - that is just Cosmo dogma and feminist propaganda - a fantasy. Most of you have agreed or suggested that she needs to seperate her daughter from her dating time with NTD, I agree. His scarcity mentality bothers me. It emerged recently when he posted about the " tongue kiss' - his tone was one of GRATITUDE . What !! A good man should NEVER feel this way if the relationship is 'in balance' . This woman needs to HONOR and RESPECT him more and it is HIS job to send her the message that he is worth more than the present treatment that he is receiving . .
Author NuTuDating Posted March 17, 2008 Author Posted March 17, 2008 Exactly ! Why is this ? The answer lies in the OPs willingness to ACCOMODATE her and her relationship with her daughter. This is what I refered to as him creating too much 'comfort'. He has been willing to mold his time and actions to HER life circumstances. NOt a great idea. If she wants the BENEFITS and REWARDS of dating a good man then she should make some EFFORT to accomodate HIM and met his needs. All relationships cost both parties something. YOu girls cannot "have it all" - that is just Cosmo dogma and feminist propaganda - a fantasy. Most of you have agreed or suggested that she needs to seperate her daughter from her dating time with NTD, I agree. His scarcity mentality bothers me. It emerged recently when he posted about the " tongue kiss' - his tone was one of GRATITUDE . What !! A good man should NEVER feel this way if the relationship is 'in balance' . This woman needs to HONOR and RESPECT him more and it is HIS job to send her the message that he is worth more than the present treatment that he is receiving . . Thanks again for all the responses. The "Grrrrr..." from before was having the date end early because she needed to go get her daughter at about 10:00. We went out to eat at 8:30, so... 1:10 of dinner, 10 minutes of driving, and another 10 minutes at my house where I got the nice good night kiss, just in case anyone wants the details. Alright, AussieJack... write some pages, you're preaching to the clueless. LOL, you're on the spot! I would think that if she wasn't attracted to me, things would have gone at least a little worse than they did? How do you go about telling her that I'm "worth more than the present treatment" I'm receiving?
carhill Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 OP, she's deciding if she's attracted to you. Try "I'm going xxx this Saturday. I'd love for you to join me". If answer in the negative, then "OK, no worries." Just leave it at that, and then go. For me, that would be something like a cruise-in with my Mustang buddies or similar. This shows her you have interests and things you like to do and want to include her, but being with her doesn't supercede important things in your life. I think that's part of what AJ meant.
Author NuTuDating Posted March 17, 2008 Author Posted March 17, 2008 OP, she's deciding if she's attracted to you. Try "I'm going xxx this Saturday. I'd love for you to join me". If answer in the negative, then "OK, no worries." Just leave it at that, and then go. For me, that would be something like a cruise-in with my Mustang buddies or similar. This shows her you have interests and things you like to do and want to include her, but being with her doesn't supercede important things in your life. I think that's part of what AJ meant. I get the drift.
tanbark813 Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 How do you go about telling her that I'm "worth more than the present treatment" I'm receiving? You tell her with actions. If you want to go out just the two of you then refuse to hang out with her and her daughter. You don't have to be a dick about it, just tell you that you'd prefer to get to know her one-on-one and stand your ground. There's no reason why you have to go along with a situation you don't like.
SpanksTheMonkey Posted March 17, 2008 Posted March 17, 2008 Thanks again for all the responses. The "Grrrrr..." from before was having the date end early because she needed to go get her daughter at about 10:00. Alright, AussieJack... write some pages, you're preaching to the clueless. Well thats because like some one else here tried to point out she is not a completely free women. She can't come and go at will like you can she has responsibility's. I think you don't quite appreciate that fact maybe. I think for a single mom shes doing pretty well far as the dating thing goes here. OP, she's deciding if she's attracted to you. Yes I agree with this! I don't think this relationship has much future honestly. I think you would be happier with a single unattached women at the end of the day just from what I'm seeing in this thread. Not trying to rude here please don't take this the wrong way but if anyones a bit clueless here it sounds like you when it comes to dating a women with kids.
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