Am I wrong to want my wife to be more of what is a stereotypical wife?

[justpassingthrough]

Fair warning: I am a "neatnick," too.

 

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you on whether or not a "neatnik" creates no burden.

 

How so, Ladyjane?

 

My "neatnick" ways have created endless battles in my own home, so I do agree with you the clash over levels of tidiness happens. I, however, fail to understand why.

 

Seriously, I'm looking for insight. It has been a source of contention between my now-young adult son and daughter and myself for a long, long time. So much so that their "teenage rebellion" was not sex (neither of them - to this day - honest), drugs (again, honest), alcohol (honest), school (honest), or any of those other horrible experiences teenagers are capable of putting their parents through (really, I'm being truthful). Instead, it took the form of an outright lashing out and quitting "cleanliness" pretty much altogether.

 

Ex.:

 

In order to get to the bathroom, it used to be necessary to walk past my daughter's bedroom. One morning, I smelled something ... rank ... coming from that room. I opened the door, stood stunned at the mess, found what I thought was the source, took all of the dirty dishes from under her bed, soaked them for a really long time, and washed them.

 

A couple of hours later, I'm headed back to the bathroom and the smell is still there. I dove back into "the mess" and started looking deeper. Sure enough, there it was, in one of her dresser drawers.

 

My daughter and I were at the grocery store and she saw a Cornish hen. Now, I've never prepared that as a family meal; never had an interest. But she wanted to try it so I bought her one. Sure enough, she cooked it, took it into her room to eat it, and instead of disposing of the carcass, put it, still on the plate, in her dresser.

 

She knew what she was doing and she knew exactly what would happen. She PLANNED to do that because she knew it would "get to" me.

 

Ladyjane - or anybody - what on earth could I have possibly done to cause someone to want to live and sleep in closed quarters with a rotting carcass?

 

Please?

 

But, there's a psychological stress in living with someone who by his expectations demands perfection as proof of love and devotion. To my mind, that's a burden too.

 

Is this the way that non-"neatnicks" really see "us"?

 

Seriously, I'm trying to understand this one, too.

Edited March 10, 2008 by justpassingthrough
bad grammar

[carhill]

My mother was non-organized to an unbelievable degree. My father organized. His shop was perfection. The house much less so. Neither person did well. My mother was constantly fearful that she would displease him. She really worked at trying to be organized. It was difficult and created a burden for her, as she kept trying to take on attributes that didn't belong to her. She would have been perfectly happy spending hours looking for something she had put down somewhere.

I'm curious. How would your mother have been able to live alone, searching for hours for something she misplaced? Would she, as my wife often does, buy another duplicate item to replace it, then misplace that item, buy another, and another , and another (granted over time). You can see how this behavior can impact fiscal responsibility, and does for us. Right now, we can't afford mistakes, so, yes, my wife has to do her part for our team just like I have been tasked to increase my business by a certain amount (by her).

 

This is where I'm seeing the disconnect in the therapy process. I'm learning all these great new relationship and communication tools and I'm increasingly hearing from her that the therapy process isn't being "fair". BTW, as part of the process, I now do not complain when I have to hunt down the scissors. I merely do so and return them, advising her that I put them back in the drawer, with no editorializing. There are no consequences from me for her behavior, hence no burden, other than that which she puts on herself.

 

This example is proffered as an infinitesimal part of the insignificance of everyday life which does, through repetition with many other aspects and activities, become significant.

 

Look at it another way, and see it in your hearts. If I felt I was truly being loved, would I really care where she put the scissors? I think you know that answer. Right now, in our relationship, my wife has the control (by caring the least) That, in essence, is what I'm hearing from the OP. Where is he, BTW?

Edited March 10, 2008 by carhill

[stillafool]

I didn't read this entire thread but my question to the OP is - didn't you notice that your wife didn't like to cook and clean before you married her? If so, why do you expect her to want to cook and clean now that you are married? Did you think she would change?

[Trialbyfire]

I agree that there's a burden on both parties, when the manner in which they prefer to live, conflicts dramatically. I guess the question is, why is this a battle of wills? Shouldn't this be similar to fueling any component of a relationship? Compromise?

 

My ex and I were similar but of different levels of cleanliness. It worked out okay, in that he became cleaner and I dropped my expectation level. Also, I love to cook, so he did the cleaning up after dinner. It would have been different if both of us didn't have dedicated career paths and goals.

 

I also agree that if you knew that she wasn't a domestic person pre-marriage, that it should come as no surprise that post-marriage, she would be the same way. You cannot force change on someone. They have to want to change for themselves.

 

Can this not be something fun you can do together? If you're capable of getting along in the kitchen together, maybe she can make the salad and you can do the entree?

[carhill]

I agree that there's a burden on both parties, when the manner in which they prefer to live, conflicts dramatically. I guess the question is, why is this a battle of wills? Shouldn't this be similar to fueling any component of a relationship? Compromise?

 

Great perspective IMO. One doesn't have to "change" their fundamental personality, yet they can modify their situational behavior for the betterment of the relationship. This is an important tool I've learned in therapy. By accepting (using my prior postings here) my wife's "messiness" and modifying my behavior to be less critical, I now understand that I'm not demeaning my own character by accommodating hers. Adjunct to that, my responsibility is to communicate my perspective and character to her, so she's aware of compromises she needs to make. It's a process

 

My only reservations (and it's noted abundantly here in this thread) are when someone attempts to assert or educate me about my perspective being "wrong" or inapplicable. Yes, my behaviors, especially in the past, have been wrong, but my perspective is valid

[Ladyjane14]

 

She knew what she was doing and she knew exactly what would happen. She PLANNED to do that because she knew it would "get to" me.

 

Ladyjane - or anybody - what on earth could I have possibly done to cause someone to want to live and sleep in closed quarters with a rotting carcass?

 

Please?

 

 

 

Is this the way that non-"neatnicks" really see "us"?

 

Seriously, I'm trying to understand this one, too.

 

:lmao: I know it's not funny... but still, I have to laugh at the olfactory insult she must've dealt to HERSELF just to eek out some minor teenage rebellion. I mean, it's not like you were exposed to it for nearly as long as she was. You were just passing by. She was LIVING in there.

Talk about snipping off her nose to spite her face! I bet she probably reached a point where she wished she literally could have!

 

Kids seem to find lots of nonsensical reasons to invoke conflict with their parents, don't they? I expect a good bit of it is a separation mechanism, whereby they're asserting independence. Invoking conflict is a pretty good way of screwing up our nerve to let go of Mama's hand, although I doubt many of us recognize it for what it is when we're going through it ourselves.

 

Teenagers are also graced with an immature medial prefrontal cortex which affects their ability to make good judgment calls. And just at the point in life when they need good judgment the most too. To top it all off, they're flooded with hormones, which can sometimes make it difficult for them to concentrate, particularly, I've noticed, when it's something that's not too interesting like... hmmm... tidying up. Mine can play video games with the mental focus and dexterity of a neurosurgeon... but can't seem to find their way to the sink with a cereal bowl!

 

I'm thinking you're right and you just had a mini teenaged revolt going on. Kids will find a way to pluck your last nerve when they want your attention. And you know, sometimes, I think it's just that they need some reassurance that we're still minding the store. They test our love for them, maybe just to make sure it's still there.

 

But you know, in a larger sense... I think it's natural for everybody to want unconditional love, and to maybe "test" it from time to time. Regardless of whether or not unconditional love truly exists in adult relationships, it's still something we want for ourselves. We want to know our partner will love us no matter what. So when we find ourselves on the receiving end of critical commentary, we feel particularly hurt and devalued, as if our worth of spirit was measured by our inability to bond the clothes hamper. The "test" of love has failed at that point, and the person we love most... only loves us when we're good.

That's the stinkin' thinkin' anyway, the thought process which brings stress and emotional division.

 

I think it's important that we focus on the Big Picture when we're dealing with our loved ones, so that we prioritize what's special about them, and allow what's not quite so exceptional to skid on down into trivia. Afterall, it does no good to love somebody, if they can't feel the love. When you consider the potential for built up resentment and loss of love, why sweat the small stuff? It's not like we can change anybody but ourselves anyway.

[Ladyjane14]

It's a process

 

Exactly.

From the day you make your vows 'til the Good Lord calls one of you up... it's an ongoing process.

[Mustang Sally]

I like the fact that the word "compromise" has been used amply in this thread. The truth is, in all aspects of marriage, this is probably one simple way to distill it all down, I think.

 

Compromise = viable marriage.

 

I know a premarital counselor who says this about what both partners are mandated to do in marriage: You give. And when you're done giving, you give some more. And when you are done with that, you keep on giving.

 

Get the picture?

 

Of course, I also heard this on the radio this morning:

Question: What is the definition of compromise?

Answer: Nobody is happy!

 

Actually, now that I think about it some more, it probably should read more like this:

Compromise + communication = viable marriage

 

You two need to come to the table with an open, honest dialogue. I don't find your requests unreasonable, per se. But I'm sure there is another (or three) side to the story, as well.

[Trialbyfire]

While I do believe in compromise, it shouldn't always need to be a compromise. Sometimes you get your way, other times he/she gets their way too. Otherwise, once again, you have lifestyles that conflict too greatly, which can only develop resentments.

[silktricks]

My only reservations (and it's noted abundantly here in this thread) are when someone attempts to assert or educate me about my perspective being "wrong" or inapplicable. Yes, my behaviors, especially in the past, have been wrong, but my perspective is valid

 

Hi Carhill - a perspective is an angle of looking at things. Noone can say your perspective is "wrong", but sometimes we all need to get a little nudge just to change the angle a little.

 

I (for one) do not intend to say that anything about you is wrong (including your perspective), and if I came across that way, I apologize profusely. From the angle of a non-neatnik, however, living with a very neat person can have its difficulties, too. That's all I was trying to say.

 

Would my mom have gone out and purchased a new whatever because she lost the previous one? Doubtful. But that's more because she was also excessively penurious rather than that she wouldn't have wanted to go out and buy a second (or third) item. As a child growing up, more times than I could count we would all spend hours looking for some lost item - or lost car - or lost whatever. (Once she lost me. )

[Mustang Sally]

While I do believe in compromise, it shouldn't always need to be a compromise. Sometimes you get your way, other times he/she gets their way too. Otherwise, once again, you have lifestyles that conflict too greatly, which can only develop resentments.

I agree with you.

And I think that that, in and of itself, can be considered compromise.

JMO.

[MJTig]

I echo many of the things said above.

 

My husband likes to cook, I do not. Therefore he cooks more often- BUT, I also clean up after dinner and put the kitchen back in order as a thank you to him. There was a period of time where I wasn't doing as much as I should and we talked about it and now I make sure I do more. He is more OCD than I am about things and i got annoyed that he was seemingly pointing out things i always do wrong rather than thanking me for what I do well (although he has acknowledged this and calmed down). So there may be a difference in the natural drive to get things done, but you have to compromise about it.

 

As for her grad school and you finding snippets of her day where she is goofing off- maybe that is stress relief for her? You love to cook, maybe that is stress relief for you? You have to both find a level where you are getting things dfone but one person is not getting worn out then expected to perform. This is how you feel now, don't make it so it's how she feels later.

 

Also, there is the idea of being a "martyr" - Person A busts their butt doing things for others off of what is important to them and because they want others to notice or do things in return. When person B doesn't (because they may not find the same things important or not have the time that A is putting into it), the person resents it and sulks and wonders why B isn't tripping all over themselves for A. Bad road to go down.

Edited March 11, 2008 by MJTig

[carhill]

Agree on the martyr road; walked that road; they left the sewer trench open.

 

Viewed in the vacuum of this thread, I think the advice offered here is excellent and I hope the OP (where is he, anyway?) will take it to heart.

 

Now, from my own "perspective", I'll offer a bit of advice to the ladies: If your SO/husband's mother is terminally mentally ill, please do not consistently make derogatory remarks about her, whether in the past (as the reason for your mate's "disease") or the present. Trust me when I tell you it will kill your mate's love for you quicker than you can say WTF.

 

That's a tiny bit of my backstory (in no way applicable to the OP) which was not shared here, because I didn't think it pertinent. Such behaviors are a virus to a relationship and are a large part of why ours is in trouble. On the one hand, my wife can brag on my mother "how she took such good care of this house for 50 years" to others and then, privately, blame her for my "disease of domestic perfection" due to being an obsessive cleaner/doting mother/surrogate "wife" bla, bla, bla. Anyone else would've gotten a bullet in the head, trust me. Bottom line ladies; disrespect your SO's mother at your own peril. Most men will not stand for it, martyr or not.

 

Thanks for your advice. I've learned a lot. I hope the OP has too. Back to work

[smartgirl]

I've been on both sides of this with my mother, husband and daughter. What is needed is consideration and compromise on both sides.

 

I thought my H (very intelligent man) was just being difficult by leaving things wherever he used them last, never putting things back in a particular place or leaving dishes next to sink instead of dishwasher, He seems to suffer the most sometimes because he is perpetually looking for things he has misplaced.

 

Flash forward to wonderful, very intelligent daughter. She is twice as bad as him. It is as though anything in her hand doesn't register with her brain. Her room is beyond pigsty and no day goes by that she isn't tearing the house up looking for something. She is not the only one who suffers, because the entire household gets sucked into dealing with this. But she is the one who suffers the most and it does not motivate her to change.

 

Just as the Wizard of Oz said to the Scarecrow - "you my friend are a victim of disorganized thinking."

 

I am beginning to think people like this can't change even if they want to and I fear for my daughter's ability to maintain relationships with the opposite sex.

[carhill]

I think it's an issue of compatibility. If my wife and I were more compatible in that regard, I would not see "burdens" or "responsibilities". It's the disparity of perspective which creates the issues. Unfortunately, I did not have the time to confront this earlier in our marriage, due to my responsibilities to my mother, so I maintained the status quo, which is now entrenched. Therapy and the "new me" is effectively pulling the rug from underneath my wife's world and this not unexpectedly upsets her. I would imagine the OP faces a similar situation. Such is why I'm giving the process time with continuing MC and personal work. My wife has given me a deadline of one year to improve my business to a certain level or sell it and our home, move and get a "job". I have a similar deadline for relationship issues I feel are important to me. Back to work

[Trialbyfire]

The human mind is odd but in so many ways, predictable. If you honestly place importance on something, you will remember. One of my old bosses once said to me "People who are perpetually late for meetings, have no respect for other peoples' time.". Yes, he said this about me and yes, he was right. I was more focused on dealing with what I viewed, were priorities. It's based on my disdain for meetings, when most of them tend to be non-productive, simply posturing opportunities for certain other attendees.

 

To this day, I still catch myself doing this but not consistently. Most of the time, I try to ensure that I'm on time if not early or better yet, find ways to weasel out of meetings.

 

In so many ways, what he said was/is true. A disorganized person places no real importance on returning items to where they belong or returning a place to the state it was. The end product is that it affects other peoples' time, which can become a cumulative resentment.

[carhill]

The human mind is odd but in so many ways, predictable. If you honestly place importance on something, you will remember.

 

My wife has never been late to a Keith Urban concert, no matter in what country on earth it is. Always managed to have her camera too

[Trialbyfire]

My wife has never been late to a Keith Urban concert, no matter in what country on earth it is. Always managed to have her camera too

I rest my case.

 

Of course this has levels to it. There are some things in life that shouldn't be stressed as important. The only people who can define importance to items and situations, is the couple in question. Unilateral decision-making never works for anyone. You need buy-in, from both parties.

[Micke81]

I haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if what I'm suggesting has already been covered. First of all, you need to be able to talk to your wife. Communication is very important.

 

As far as the household duties, why not try doing most of them together. The two of you can cook together, then clean together. I HATE to clean, and get the most done when H and I work at the same time.

 

The sex is a whole other issue. But don't go to bed alone. Go to bed at the same time as your wife. Create some intimacy. Obviously your wife needs to put in some effort, but she isn't here, so you've got to take the fist steps.

[Storyrider]

She is not the only one who suffers, because the entire household gets sucked into dealing with this. But she is the one who suffers the most and it does not motivate her to change.

 

This is a really telling point. If the behavior is undermining her success, but not enough to motivate her to change, how does it make sense to assume someone else's frustration will motivate her? It most likely will not.

 

The human mind is odd but in so many ways, predictable. If you honestly place importance on something, you will remember.

 

In a sense this is true, but some people can't juggle as many balls as others. I can honestly say that if I vacuumed my carpets every day, dusted every other day, washed all my clothing items every second wearing, I would not be able to function in other areas of my life that matter to me more. So, yes, in a sense it is prioritizing. If I felt obligated to do those things, I would not have any energy left for my kids or my husband, wouldn't have enough time to read and write (which is a core part of who I am and I refuse to jettison) and I would be a very angry person.

 

Those who are great at multitasking might say, well, you just need to structure your time better and you could do all these things. But, realistically, not everyone has it in them to do this with success. Some of us can only manage one or two things at a time without getting overwhelmed, so that is how we function.

 

My wife has never been late to a Keith Urban concert, no matter in what country on earth it is. Always managed to have her camera too

 

Of course, but that is because she is intrinsically passionate about it. She will never be intrinsically passionate about housework if she isn't now.

[Kamille]

I likely fall in the disorganized category. I have spells when I'm on top of things, but as soon as start feeling overwhelmed, cleaning drops right down on my list of priorities.

 

I really want to stress that disorganized people are not disorganized to spite others.

 

Your wife doesn't leave stuff everywhere just to spite you.

 

Plus, I live on my own, have done so for much of the last 6 years, and I do manage. IT isn't true that disoranized people would be lost without their neatniks partners. Their ways of operating are just different.

 

For instance, say I'm cooking and looking for sissors and realize I haven't put them back in the drawer. For me? It really doesn't stress me out. I close the burner and go on the hunt, likely getting distracted along the way by something else - like say a good song on the radio. Eventually find the sissors and get back on track.

 

I agree that it isn't fair to the neatnik partner for whom misplaced objects are stressful or for whom being neat and organized is a way to manage stress. Yet at times I find having to always keep on top of everything very stressful.

 

My attitude is probably a reaction to the fact my mom was a neatfreak and gets stressed out when there is a dirthy cup on the counter. I find comfort in letting things slide. In priorizing leasure and relaxation over organization.

[carhill]

 

 

Of course, but that is because she is intrinsically passionate about it. She will never be intrinsically passionate about housework if she isn't now.

 

At the risk of oversimplifying, I want her to be "intrinsically passionate" about our marriage, just as I am, and show it (per the above example) as her travel agent making sure she gets to all her desired gigs on time and as cheaply as possible. It has nothing to do with housework. That's just a symptom of a deeper issue. Re-visit the "our team" concept proffered by our psychologist earlier in this thread. I know she loves seeing Keith Urban, so, as a "team member", I use my skills to help her and do it willingly and without expectation. I'm passionate about "it" because I'm passionate about "her", not because I derive vicarious satisfaction from staring at a computer screen and typing.. It's up to her to decide whether she's passionate about our team, and her role on it, including "housework" or whatever the issue du jour is.

 

I've used the terms "guilt and manipulation" in therapy to describe how my wife's behavior impacts me. These are relatively new words to me, as my past experiences (especially with female role models) did not reveal such to me. Therapy has clarified an important concept to me, that of being clear about what I want and being consistent about rebuffing attempts to deter me from it. I know what I want from our marriage, am communicating it and expect it to be understood. Whether it is given is not up to me. Whether I stay is

[Storyrider]

At the risk of oversimplifying, I want her to be "intrinsically passionate" about our marriage, just as I am, and show it (per the above example) as her travel agent making sure she gets to all her desired gigs on time and as cheaply as possible. It has nothing to do with housework. That's just a symptom of a deeper issue. Re-visit the "our team" concept proffered by our psychologist earlier in this thread. I know she loves seeing Keith Urban, so, as a "team member", I use my skills to help her and do it willingly and without expectation. I'm passionate about "it" because I'm passionate about "her", not because I derive vicarious satisfaction from staring at a computer screen and typing.. It's up to her to decide whether she's passionate about our team, and her role on it, including "housework" or whatever the issue du jour is.

But this is what it means to you. You are choosing to interpret her lack of housework as a lack of passion for the marriage. She may not mean it that way.

 

By the same token, she may not interpret your support of her Keith Urban hobby as a showing of love. She might just take it for granted and look for signs of your love elsewhere.

[carhill]

Yep, that's her argument, and likely will be until she sees the divorce papers

[StartingOver07]

I likely fall in the disorganized category. I have spells when I'm on top of things, but as soon as start feeling overwhelmed, cleaning drops right down on my list of priorities.

 

Kamille, that made me think of the note I posted below. I realise it is slightly OT but also slightly on...

 

Personally, I used to be an extreme neat-nik but then I went and had children.... It was adapt or be miserable, so now I am trying to find my inner messy person.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Recently, I was diagnosed with AA.A.D.D. -

 

Age Activated Attention Deficit Disorder. This is how it manifests:

 

I decide to water my garden.

 

As I turn on the hose in the driveway, I look over at my car and decide it needs washing.

 

As I start toward the garage, I notice mail on the porch table that I brought up from the mail box earlier.

 

I decide to go through the mail before I wash the car.

 

I lay my car keys on the table, put the junk mail in the garbage can under the table, and notice that the can is full. So, I decide to put the bills back on the table and take out the garbage first.

 

But then I think, since I'm going to be near the mailbox when I take out the garbage anyway, I may as well pay the bills first.

 

I take my check book off the table, and see that there is only one check left.

 

My extra checks are in my desk in the study, so I go inside the house to my desk where I find the can of Diet Coke I'd been drinking. I'm going to look for my checks, but first I need to push the Diet Coke aside so that I don't accidentally knock it over. The Coke is getting warm, and I decide to put it in the refrigerator to keep it cold.

 

As I head toward the kitchen with the Coke, a vase of flowers on the counter catches my eye--they need water.

 

I put the Coke on the counter and discover my reading glasses that I've been searching for all morning. I decide I better put them back on my desk, but first I'm going to water the flowers.

 

I set the glasses back down on the counter, fill a container with water and suddenly spot the TV remote. Someone left it on the kitchen table. I realize that tonight when we go to watch TV, I'll be looking for the remote, but I won't remember that it's on the kitchen table, so I decide to put it back in the den where it belongs, but first I'll water the flowers.

 

I pour some water in the flowers, but quite a bit of it spills on the floor. So, I set the remote back on the table, get some towels and wipe up the spill.

 

Then, I head down the hall trying to remember what I was planning to do.

 

At the end of the day:

 

the car isn't washed

the bills aren't paid

there is a warm can of Coke sitting on the counter

the flowers don't have enough water,

there is still only 1 check in my check book,

I can't find the remote,

I can't find my glasses,

and I don't remember what I did with the car keys.

 

Then, when I try to figure out why nothing got done today, I'm really baffled because I know I was busy all damn day, and I'm really tired.

 

I realize this is a serious problem, and I'll try to get some help for it, but first I'll check my e-mail.....

[/FONT][/COLOR]