Am I wrong to want my wife to be more of what is a stereotypical wife?

March 8, 2008

The fact is though... for some people, these "Acts of Service" are proof of loving feelings, and because the "need" to feel loved is pretty much a universal one, a dismissive attitude by one's partner, turns what might have been a "want" into something larger.

I wonder if "Acts of Service" is the OPs love language, but not his wife's? He is doing all this stuff that would communicate love to him, but it does not communicate love to his wife. Might be worth trying to discover his wife's love language.

Edited March 8, 2008 by TechDude

March 8, 2008

Mike,

As I was reading your OP I was getting a very, very uncomfortable feeling that this is what I seemed like to my H a few years back. We have been together for over 30 years and married most of that.

I think things were pretty equal in terms of chores for much of our marriage, including all the kid stuff. But about 10 years ago it all began to hit the fan for me. Between the house, kids and a soul sucking job, I was becoming overwhelmed but I didn't realize it.

I saw myself as a superwoman for being able to work a 50-60 hour a week job, be a good mom, etc. Keeping all the balls in the air. Trouble was, I was dropping balls and didn't realize it. My H was doing most of the real cooking while I was coming home late from work. That seemed like a fair trade off to me, but he didn't see it that way. I was gradually doing less or taking shortcuts, but I felt like I needed to do that to survive. That's a lie. I wasn't really aware I was doing it and I didn't believe my H when he said I was. It just felt like he was dumping on me when what I felt I needed was to be indulged.

My libido was in the toilet and I rarely wanted sex (very unlike me), but I didn't see that either. Amazing how much denial you can labor under. Looking back on all this and other behaviors, it is clear I was suffering from a form of depression and I was driving my H away. I can see I was being selfish, though it wasn't my intent.

It wasn't until I got laid off and stayed at home that I began to unwind some. Then due to my H having an A, we went into MC, but more important, did a lot of talking about us. Only then was I able to get some perspective on what had been going on.

So you do need to talk to your wife, but understand that she may feel she is doing all she can. DO NOT take a critical, "you aren't pulling your weight" approach. She needs to hear that you are fully sensitive to what she is going through, but that you also feel your relationship and its support structures are suffering. Talk to her about what you might both do differently, don't just give her a list of the things you are sick of doing that you want her to do now. That makes it sound like it is all about you. Make it a conversation and bring her into the problem solving. Don't read off a list of grievances and your proposed solutions. Tell her how you are FEELING and that your marriage is important to you and you want it to be healthy.

Edited March 8, 2008 by smartgirl
need to add

March 9, 2008

Smartgirl, are you my doppleganger? Your story sounds so much like mine it's downright eerie.

Mike, the one thing I'd like to say (that I don't think anyone else has mentioned) is the fact that she's both working and going to school. That's a heavy schedule.

You are working and doing all of the housework. That's a heavy schedule. It could very well be that although she isn't truly aware of it, she figures that is a fair division of labor - 2 jobs for her (work and school) and 2 jobs for you (work and all the housework).

She needs to understand that this really isn't an even division of emotional labor, and that if she doesn't take on some of the "couples" work, then your togetherness erodes. Since she starts to cry whenever you bring up your dissatisfaction, it does seem that marriage counseling could be in the cards.

The book that LJ recommended is also a great way to start.

Best of luck to you.

March 9, 2008

I agree the game I am playing now is silly but I am not going to let her run all over me.

It's not only silly but unproductive. Beyond being satisfying on some childish emotional level (He started it first! No, he started it...), it has nothing to do with either of the positive solutions to your situation - either working on your marriage or getting out.

Mr. Lucky

March 9, 2008

LadyJane, you and I must have been typing at the same time

I am not looking for traditional his and hers, I'm just looking for her to do SOMETHING! We each do our own laundry, and we live in a 2 bedroom apartment. I did a deep clean of our family room, living room, and kitchen, which took a day each, and she reciprocated by cleaning the bathroom. I appreciated that, but the bathroom is small, and she could have offered to help me, or maybe done the bedroom or something.

You are right, I do resent her. When I go to bed sometimes I just look at her and think about all the things she hasn't done for me. I feel slightly selfish about that, but it's how I feel. I bring in 80% of the money. I pay all the bills, I do all the cooking, I do 80% of the cleaning, I do everything I can to make her happy and feel loved, and I feel she does nothing for me.

She never cooked, so you have to understand that she's not a cook. She's not going to suddenly become a cook. Before you came into her life, she probably ordered in a lot, made a lot of sandwiches, and ate out a lot. That's how it is with some people, so don't equate her cooking/not cooking with "doing/not doing anything for you". That's not how she sees it. Her not cooking has nothing to do with her feelings for you. She just doesn't like to cook, period. Neither do I, and no matter who I fell in love with, I'm not gonna turn into Martha Stewart, and it wouldn't mean I didn't love him.

As to your deep cleaning, again, some people don't give a damn if there is dust in the house. They don't care if the dishes stack up before running the dishwasher, and they take out the garbage when they can't fit one more single thing in the bag without it busting open. Do not equate cleaning/not cleaning with her doing/not doing something for you and whether she is showing/not showing love. That's not how she sees it.

And why would it take you a whole DAY to clean the living room, or any room, for that matter? Sounds like it may be your standards of cleanliness are wayyyyy higher than hers. YOU care that things are clean all the time, but she just doesn't. If you're sick of it, then hire a maid to come in once a month and do the deep clean. They actually aren't that expensive.

You are doing all these things 'to make her feeling happy and loved' but cooking and cleaning may not necessarily make her feel happy and loved. Maybe she would feel happy and loved if you flirted with her all the time. Or if you two went out on dates and did something romantic or fun together. Or if you joined her for roller derby or some other activity she enjoys.

Maybe you can find out what makes her feel happy and loved by asking her, and maybe you can explain to her that her doing household chores makes you feel happy and loved and you'll at least understand each other better even if you can't accommodate each other in those particular ways.

As to the sex, I really can't comment on that as I don't know what her issue is with it. Could be she's not having orgasms except for when she takes over and 'makes' you do it her way.

You need to communicate better to really understand what is behind your issues, and how to resolve them.

March 9, 2008

I agree with NJ's post. Based on the words of the OP, these are differences in personal preference and style that were present at the beginning of the relationship.

Also, if the sex is not satisfying on the honeymoon, it is generally not going to get better.

To address the question in the title, you're not wrong to want what you want. But this isn't about right and wrong, it is about whether the relationship is working for you (and for her) or not.

Edited March 9, 2008 by Storyrider

March 9, 2008

Great post Norajane. I think you've highlighted some valid points.

Mike, you do the things you do because they are important to YOU. They obviously aren't important to her or she would have the motivation to do them. At that point, it's your job to help her see how the importance to you and ASK (don't tell) her to help you.

Why do you spend so much time cleaning 2 rooms? Why is it so important to cook every night? Why are you really doing all this extra work? Is it for her? Because I'm not seeing how you're showing her how much you love her by spending 2 hours cleaning a couple rooms. You could've spent that time cuddling with her, or doing something TOGETHER that was fun. Instead, you're a huge ball of resentment because you put a ton of effort into doing something only you wanted to do anyway.

I don't get it Mike. I'm not trying to be obtuse or rude or anything, but it seems like your busting your a$$ to do something that is really only significant to you. These things you are busting your butt to accomplish don't show her you love her, they don't make her feel happy in the relationship. When you confront her about not doing the dishes, you end up making her feel like a kid being scolded by her parents. Not loved, cherished, OR respected.

And fine. you want things clean. But again... what is most important to you? Clean house, or better sex? You can nag and pressure your wife to clean the house, but the sex will suck. Or you can spend that energy on creating a better relationship (with a less clean house) and put the effort into improving the quality of your sex life.

March 9, 2008

I've found, through many years of marriage, that a person's interaction with their surroundings reflects a fundamental feature of their personality. I empathize with the OP. My experience has been that laziness regarding the necessary domestic responsibilities flows over into all aspects of living and relationships, and the difficulties we currently face bear that out. I have no control over how my wife treats me emotionally or spiritually, but I surely will not degrade myself by letting our home become a pig sty.

I believe all aspects of a relationship are important. If there's a half hour for lovemaking, there's 5 minutes to make a bed or pick up the clothing and shoes flung about. I don't think it's an "either or" proposition. It's also something I shouldn't have to nag about. My wife doesn't have to ask me to bring her coffee in bed every morning; it's something I do because I love her. I shouldn't have to ask her to pick up the cr@p she's tossed about when she comes home from work, which would stay exactly where tossed for days or weeks on end, or until she ran out. This personality feature spills over into commitments and finance, and costs us money.

I spent years doing special things for my wife and pursuing interests of hers to far flung parts of the world and enjoyed every minute of it. I now wonder why she never had the time nor inclination to even spend 10 minutes of her time to walk 100 feet to where my make my living and create all the cool things she enjoys and take the time to reciprocate or show a modicum of interest. Actually, I don't wonder. It goes back to that same cluttered personality which leaves the shoes everywhere and "doesn't do yard work" but is happy to plant more things for me to take care of.

That's why we're in MC and that's why I'm not confident the relationship will survive.

OP, stick to your guns. Tell her what you want and, if she's not willing to compromise and respect your perspective, get out. Trust me, it's not worth the humiliation.

March 9, 2008

I've found, through many years of marriage, that a person's interaction with their surroundings reflects a fundamental feature of their personality. I empathize with the OP. My experience has been that laziness regarding the necessary domestic responsibilities flows over into all aspects of living and relationships, and the difficulties we currently face bear that out. I have no control over how my wife treats me emotionally or spiritually, but I surely will not degrade myself by letting our home become a pig sty.

I believe all aspects of a relationship are important. If there's a half hour for lovemaking, there's 5 minutes to make a bed or pick up the clothing and shoes flung about. I don't think it's an "either or" proposition. It's also something I shouldn't have to nag about. My wife doesn't have to ask me to bring her coffee in bed every morning; it's something I do because I love her. I shouldn't have to ask her to pick up the cr@p she's tossed about when she comes home from work, which would stay exactly where tossed for days or weeks on end, or until she ran out. This personality feature spills over into commitments and finance, and costs us money.

I spent years doing special things for my wife and pursuing interests of hers to far flung parts of the world and enjoyed every minute of it. I now wonder why she never had the time nor inclination to even spend 10 minutes of her time to walk 100 feet to where my make my living and create all the cool things she enjoys and take the time to reciprocate or show a modicum of interest. Actually, I don't wonder. It goes back to that same cluttered personality which leaves the shoes everywhere and "doesn't do yard work" but is happy to plant more things for me to take care of.

That's why we're in MC and that's why I'm not confident the relationship will survive.

OP, stick to your guns. Tell her what you want and, if she's not willing to compromise and respect your perspective, get out. Trust me, it's not worth the humiliation.

Carhill, I think you've brought up a very fundamental difference in the way men and women tend to look at relationships. I don't want to generalize too much because of course, there are exceptions to every rule and in this case, alot of them. But... (you knew there was a "but", didn't ya? )... women tend to prioritize The Relationship ahead of all the other factors surrounding it.

It's kind of like a 'Big Picture vs. Small Picture' point of view. Yeah, the clutter and mess are relevant, but when compared to the general health of the relationship itself, these things aren't worth hurting anyone's feelings over.

Now, that's not to say there aren't a whole lot of female "neatniks" out there who nag like mules over the same sort of thing. The difference is... they don't usually allow it to become a 'make-it-or-break-it' issue within the relationship. Women don't tend to love their partner less, or lose respect for his character, based upon whether he's up to snuff on getting his household chores done or not. There's often a real sense of exasperation with one who doesn't, that's true... but most won't judge their partner to be a bad person because of it.

Don't you ever wonder why women so often cry over this kind of disagreement?

It's not some sort of ruse. It's because hard words go right to the 'Relationship File', where they become an indictment upon her value as a person, her worthiness as partner, a threat to the stability of the relationship. IOW, she sees these criticisms as a loss of love and appreciation.

And truly... as we see in so many posts from men who consider their wives to be slovenly, there does in fact seem to BE a loss of love an appreciation.

Even as you apply a concept like "Love Languages", where there are marked preferences in individual personalities as we perceive loving actions... I think we also need to take into account differences between the male and female brain. Men and women seem to have a different "filing system" when it comes to relationships, and the differences in gender are NOT limited to innies and outties as our brain functions will attest.

March 9, 2008

I want to post you guys a thought or two about the freedom of individuality and how it can enhance partnership, but it's going to have to wait.... until I get some of my chores done.

March 9, 2008

I want to post you guys a thought or two about the freedom of individuality and how it can enhance partnership, but it's going to have to wait.... until I get some of my chores done.

Whereas I am going to let the dust bunnies roam free while I go out looking for a house to buy, because my slovenly/non-cooking/disordered mind has somehow managed to keep my career and finances very orderly so I can buy a house on my own.

March 9, 2008

Carhill, I think you've brought up a very fundamental difference in the way men and women tend to look at relationships. I don't want to generalize too much because of course, there are exceptions to every rule and in this case, alot of them. But... (you knew there was a "but", didn't ya? )... women tend to prioritize The Relationship ahead of all the other factors surrounding it.

Now I don't think anyone would accuse me of being a "neatnik" but I'm with the guys on this! I think to me the distinction here is around EFFORT - Mike sees himself putting in all the slog and his W cruising - and I'd also get resentful about that. Perhaps his standards of neatness are different to hers, perhaps his idea of "cooking" and hers differ, and perhaps she genuinely doesn't see dirty dishes piling up in the sink, but if she was remotely tuned into him she'd have picked up by now that it matters TO HIM and would at least have sat him down to talk about what's clearly a sticking point between them.

I don't buy the feeling sorry for her because "she has grad school and a job" story - grad school is a privilege and a treat that HE'S enabling by bringing in real money to allow her to go off and do that. It doesn't exonerate her from doing her bit at home. If it's such a chore and is threatening her M, then she should drop it. Or drop the M. I simply don't see how one can equate doing something for one's own personal fulfillment with putting in the effort to keep an household and an M going.

I don't think it's about "wanting the W to be more of a stereotypical W", either. I think it's to do with wanting some evidence that the W is as invested in the M as Mike is. From what he's describing, he's not seeing it.

March 9, 2008

LJ, that's interesting about the languages of love. Male currency, what have you done for me lately? Female currency, how do you make me feel?

March 9, 2008

I don't think it's about "wanting the W to be more of a stereotypical W", either. I think it's to do with wanting some evidence that the W is as invested in the M as Mike is. From what he's describing, he's not seeing it.

He has every right to want a wife who is something more than a passive dependent. Perhaps he's not seeing it because he has a blind spot or perhaps he's not seeing it because it's not there. Either way, it's a problem.

If his wife truly isn't invested in the marriage and is not willing to pull her fair share of the weight then I see no reason why the marriage should continue.

March 9, 2008

story - grad school is a privilege and a treat that HE'S enabling by bringin

It wasn't me who made the point about grad school.

My main point is, don't buy the chocolate chip cookie and then get mad at it because it isn't a donut.

March 9, 2008

Whereas I am going to let the dust bunnies roam free while I go out looking for a house to buy, because my slovenly/non-cooking/disordered mind has somehow managed to keep my career and finances very orderly so I can buy a house on my own.

Good Point. :D:D

March 9, 2008

My perspective as someone who worked, built a business, built a home and lived alone for over 20 years is that it isn't rocket science to balance respect for one's relationship with respect for the shared responsibilities commensurate with running a household. It takes organization, effort and the willingness to go the extra mile to succeed.

The issue our psychologist has spent much time on is the "team" concept, where my wife and I are on "our" team, working towards a common goal. I think that's what I'm hearing from the OP, that being his wife isn't wanting to do the deed to be on the team. She likes the benefits of being on the team, but not the responsibility. This concept is a fundamental disparity in the compatibility area, at least according to our psychologist. Adjunct to that dynamic, the clear perception I have of her not "believing" in me affects my self-confidence in many negative ways.

Summarizing, if I felt more valued in the relationship, who picks up what and who does the dishes, etc, would be irrelevant. But, with things as they are, such issues are on my mind, at least after a long period of "reflection".

March 9, 2008

LJ, that's interesting about the languages of love. Male currency, what have you done for me lately? Female currency, how do you make me feel?

Exactly. Men and women have a whole different POV when it comes to viewing relationships. BBL.

March 9, 2008

While I think there are some bigger issues here with regard to how the two of you communicate I'd like to just weigh in on the cleaning issue specifically.

This is one of those really basic living together issues that any two people -- roomates or SO or spouses -- must talk about to resolve. We bring to a marriage, not our own attitudes about cleaning but some kind of baggage from childhood (we either try to mimic or do the opposite of what our parents did.)

It is not reasonable to expect one of you to change to the others point of view, no matter how much of a slob one might be. One of you will have to relax your expectations and one of you will have to step up more. Compromise is the key to everything. There is no one right or wrong way to do anything in a household. You create a way that you can both live with -- something competely unique and suited to the two of you.

It took a lot of adjustments in the first 5 years of our marriage. Maybe really we have had ongoing adjustments. But in any case, it is something WE worked out and bears no resemblence to the way our parents did things or how we thought things "should be."

Edited March 9, 2008 by smartgirl
fix type

March 10, 2008

Summarizing, if I felt more valued in the relationship, who picks up what and who does the dishes, etc, would be irrelevant. But, with things as they are, such issues are on my mind, at least after a long period of "reflection".

YES!! The "small ticket" items become pretty large bugaboos when you're not getting you truest needs met, don't they? The real question is... what are your needs and what are your wants.

Personally, I've tried to pare down my needs and expectations to just the basics. Things like fidelity and fiscal responsibility to be sure, but on my list of needs I also find what Dr. Chapman refers to in The Five Love Languages as "Words of Affirmation". Like you, I need my spouse to believe in me; I need him to believe that I'm THE BEST.. and to say so on occasion. Now, it doesn't matter what other people think, other people aren't my partner. But from him, it's something that speaks to my ability to feel loved and comforted within the marriage.

I've found over the years that expectations built on "wants" only bring strife to the relationship, and that if my spouse and I are making sure that we consistently address each other's "needs", then something very special happens... the "wants" become little gifts that we bestow freely upon one another. There's nothing like a gift you weren't expecting to brighten your day, right?

By limiting expectations, we NOTICE each other's contributions to the marriage as 'above and beyond the call', and we're better able to give and receive them with a willing spirit and genuine appreciation. My partner is no longer an obligation, an albatross slung around my neck... and vice versa.

Which brings me to my earlier thought on "individuality as an enhancement of the marital relationship", and also ties into what Carhill mentioned earlier about "teamwork"....

I think there are times in a long marriage in which it's absolutely necessary to join your partner's team, and to support your partner emotionally in as complete a way as possible. Usually those times are when your spouse is dealing with some kind of significant stress, or illness, or hardship. In times like that... we place as much of our energy as possible at our spouse's disposal in order to supplement his/her strength.

But for the most part, in ordinary times, I think we have to spread our energy throughout the marriage. I mean, really... if we're on a team 100% of the time... who's team is it? Is it my team? Or is it his team?

A few years ago, I found myself in a situation in which there was only one choice. It was a time of stress and emotional hardship for my sweetie and if I was going to be able to pull him up and out of the hell he'd created for himself, I had to get 100% behind him and expend my energy as a support player on his team. Spiritually, he'd fallen... and he didn't have enough strength left on his own to get back up without my help.

I think things like that happen frequently in a long marriage. It seems more of a fluid state, with one partner strong, the other weak... and next time, vice versa. We stumble and we need help. Our partner stumbles, s/he needs help.

All that said, I don't think it's possible to be "on the team" 100% of the time in the way we might ordinarily think of it. We end up with two cooks in the kitchen, two rudders on the boat... because even though we might choose to be part of a couple, we're still individuals at heart, and our individuality needs care and feeding too.

I look at marriage as more of a trinity... the two individuals and the 'couple entity', each existing on the same plane, each of equal importance, and each in need of equal energy. There are things I do everyday for my spouse, things I do which support our goals as a couple, and things I do just for me. And when my sweetie utilizes his energy likewise... things are GREAT.

Where we run into trouble though, is in sometimes forgetting to broadcast our energy throughout the "trinity". We can't neglect our partner, we can't neglect our 'coupleness', and we can't neglect ourselves without causing disorder to the marriage.

This is where we get to the cool part ... Because we recognize the need to expend our energy equally three ways, it becomes less burdensome to allow each other time and energy to just be ourselves. It makes it possible to be happy for our partner in his/her enjoyment of the unique person s/he is. We give our partners the gift of acceptance.

It also becomes possible to indulge ourselves without feeling fettered by guilt, knowing that we rejuvenate our energy by doing so, and that this allows us to bring fresh energy and the spirit of cooperation to the 'couple entity'.

When you think about it, none of us marry with the intent that we're going to make our partner into something else. At least, I hope not anyway.

We marry to augment our lives and that of our partner. Our intent is to add, not to subtract. So, it makes no sense to put ourselves into a situation in which we're trying to change somebody, especially to the extent that it hinders their ability to find joy in life.

A marriage license isn't a bill of sale. Nobody should have to give up the person they ARE. Marriage shouldn't limit us to being one "half" of something else. It should create a sense of MORE. I should still be allowed to be ME. My husband should still be allowed to be himself. And together... we create something new and... well, MORE than we were each alone.

When we look at house-keeping for example, if you're 100% on a team... who's team is it? Is it Mr. Neatnik's team?... or is it Mrs. Messy's? Sure, Mr. Neatnik has a right to a clean environment. But, really... so does Mrs. Messy have a right to clutter and dustbunnies if that's what she wants. They're both ADULTS, and neither has a "bill of sale" with which to order the other about.

In the spirit of cooperation and giving, with acceptance for each other's rights as individuals, with energy broadcast throughout the triad... it's possible to negotiate harmony. It's possible to build new and long-lasting relationship habits because we're dealing with a positive kind of energy, something more peaceful and joyful.

Alternatively, when we expend our efforts in thoughts or actions which breed resentment or in criticisms which stagnate the individual... we're breeding a negative energy which feeds on itself. It creates nothing but an empty cycle of intolerance. It devalues the very person we most love and want to protect.

March 10, 2008

I've found, through many years of marriage, that a person's interaction with their surroundings reflects a fundamental feature of their personality. I empathize with the OP. My experience has been that laziness regarding the necessary domestic responsibilities flows over into all aspects of living and relationships, and the difficulties we currently face bear that out. I have no control over how my wife treats me emotionally or spiritually, but I surely will not degrade myself by letting our home become a pig sty.

I believe all aspects of a relationship are important. If there's a half hour for lovemaking, there's 5 minutes to make a bed or pick up the clothing and shoes flung about. I don't think it's an "either or" proposition. It's also something I shouldn't have to nag about. My wife doesn't have to ask me to bring her coffee in bed every morning; it's something I do because I love her. I shouldn't have to ask her to pick up the cr@p she's tossed about when she comes home from work, which would stay exactly where tossed for days or weeks on end, or until she ran out. This personality feature spills over into commitments and finance, and costs us money.

I spent years doing special things for my wife and pursuing interests of hers to far flung parts of the world and enjoyed every minute of it. I now wonder why she never had the time nor inclination to even spend 10 minutes of her time to walk 100 feet to where my make my living and create all the cool things she enjoys and take the time to reciprocate or show a modicum of interest. Actually, I don't wonder. It goes back to that same cluttered personality which leaves the shoes everywhere and "doesn't do yard work" but is happy to plant more things for me to take care of.

That's why we're in MC and that's why I'm not confident the relationship will survive.

OP, stick to your guns. Tell her what you want and, if she's not willing to compromise and respect your perspective, get out. Trust me, it's not worth the humiliation.

I don't want to threadjack, so I hope my comments are overall still relevant. I hear what you are saying Carhill. I can't say what is behind your wife's behavior or how the two of you interact. I will give you this thought though.

I had conditional love only from both parents. My father expected excellence in achievement in school, social situations and the workplace. My mother expected everything to be spotless -- I did dishes, laundry, vacumming, bathrooms, etc from middle school on. Nothing was ever really good enough for either of them. But still, I thought they were right and I was simply failing if I didn't meet their standards.

I have worked my tail off my whole life in almost every area but I realize now I was yearning as an adult for an area where I could let go and not have to worrry about being measured and living up to someone else's standards in order to feel loved. I became a complete slob. It got to the point of personal rebellion in some cases because I would go to more trouble to throw my clothes on the floor of the bedroom that it would have taken to hang them up. Why? As a pathetic adult-child reaction to a mother that would dump my clothes out of my drawers and on to the floor if they weren't folded neatly enough. Sick part? My H's slob like tendencies drove my crazy because my mother's hang ups were still thumping around in my brain.

This is a very, very long way of saying that a spouses bad habits probably have a great deal to do with their childhood and personal hang ups and have little, to nothing to do with you. They don't act like a slob because of disrespect towards you or because they don't care what you think. It is because they hope you love them in the way they have wanted -- total, unconditional acceptance.

Don't worry, I came back toward the center eventually after I had taken my rebellion as far out as a civilized person dared. Eventually I realized my mother didn't live in my house and I actually preferred it cleaner for my own reasons. That took till my 30s though:-)

March 10, 2008

Hey, glad to provoke thought here I'll work my way backwards, sticking to the neatness thing, so as not to become too verbose. Long day....

They don't act like a slob because of disrespect towards you or because they don't care what you think. It is because they hope you love them in the way they have wanted -- total, unconditional acceptance.

Interesting that our psychologist said love of a child is unconditional and love between adults is conditional. Since I've been doing a b!tch session about my wife, I'll try to turn the tables, in keeping with the "childhood" reference. My wife hates it when she buys a food item and it disappears (I eat it) before she even gets a chance to have some. She sees it as a fundamental disrespect. I see it as food in my cupboard and I'm a man, therefore I eat . The childhood reference is my wife grew up relatively poor with 3 brothers and always fought over food. My eating the food brings back those painful memories. So, out of respect, no matter what I may want, I always leave "some" so she can get her portion. I know my behavior, though innocuous to me (as an only child, I got everything) hurts her (she's told me), so, out of love and respect, I accommodate her. Conversely, she's well aware that leaving food items and coffee cups and wrappers laying around and rarely putting anything in the dishwasher not only creates more work for someone (usually me) it affects my self image as someone who endeavors to keep an orderly household. Neither behavior is "right" or "wrong", it's how we feel about our surroundings and ourselves. My experience and assertion is that, when one wants to please someone, they alter their behavior (not their personality or characteristics) to do so. My leaving some chips in the bag is an example of this, where I would've eaten the whole thing otherwise. Essentially, that is what I'm asking for. The psychologist doesn't seem to feel that is unreasonable. Again, I've provided examples; it's the underlying psychology which is important.

As we painted my mother's house today, my wife bragged to our friend (a single guy who is a neatnik himself) how well my mom took care of the place (where I grew up), even after she became demented. This coming from the same brain that reviles me for my efforts to keep our house only a fraction as well kept. I've compromised to piles, to dishes, to shoes, to books, to boxes, to having my office taken over. One can only compromise so much before they lose their mind

When I read the OP, these are the visions which run through my head. Perhaps inaccurate, but that's what I see. I wouldn't mind it so much if she was consistent or didn't rush around madly to clean up (driving me nuts) prior to having guests over.

Granted, it's just a symptom, but it's one which faces me every minute of every day. Our psychologist calls it a "disparity of perspective" and that makes good sense. To me, neither way is right or wrong, just different. As long as a modicum of respect and love is maintained, differences are OK with me. But, oh, watch out when I eat that last slice of pie

When we look at house-keeping for example, if you're 100% on a team... who's team is it? Is it Mr. Neatnik's team?... or is it Mrs. Messy's? Sure, Mr. Neatnik has a right to a clean environment. But, really... so does Mrs. Messy have a right to clutter and dustbunnies if that's what she wants. They're both ADULTS, and neither has a "bill of sale" with which to order the other about.

Consider the burdens. Someone who is organized creates no burden on the less or non-organized person. They suffer not one whit. Their perspective remains pure. But, conversely, the less or non-organized person can and usually will create a burden for the more organized person when existing in the same environment.

Let's consider for a moment the tale of two scissors. Being the organized person I am, I keep two pairs of scissors (a primary and a backup) in the kitchen tool drawer. I use them and put them back. I know, novel idea . Now, my wife likes to use things and just leave them where she used them. So, she takes the scissors outside to cut some cardboard and then leaves them there, say in the garage. Later, she needs scissors for cutting some paper she's working with in the bedroom and can't find the first pair (or remember where she put them), but good old carhill has that second pair in the drawer, which she takes, uses, and leaves. Now, carhill needs to cut open a bag of food items for dinner (since he does most of the cooking) and, in the midst of cooking, opens the drawer and no scissors are there. So, while mindful of what's cooking, he must scour the house, looking in all the usual places (and then the unusual ones) and/or call her to find out where the heck she put the scissors. Yes, he just could've used a knife, but he knows that those scissors will never make it back to the drawer unless he does it himself. This is very stressful. Wife has no stress at all. She just continues on her merry way without regard for anyone else and leaves carhill to clean up the mess.

True story, many times and such disrespect and inconsiderate behaviors, regardless of their base (my wife is not a child and I will not treat her as such), is why we're having marital issues. Combine this with 4 years of me caring for my demented mother essentially alone and, well, you have one pretty pissed off nice guy

Best thing marriage has taught me is that, even under the most derogatory and objective terms, my mother was a pretty special lady. My biggest mistake was to think that (and she never taught me) the general population of females were anything like her. I'm not talking about how she treated me (nearly all mothers love their children and will do anything for them); I'm talking about how she treated strangers. She's who I learned respect from. I guess I was lucky. I'm sorry my wife perhaps wasn't as lucky. She's had a great opportunity to learn and grow in our marriage. Someday she's going to look back and wish she had. I will always take comfort in knowing I tried as hard as I could.

March 10, 2008

I find it interesting, and disheartening on your behalf, Carhill... that you see your wife's absent-minded behavior as "disrespect", as if it were some sort of personal attack on her part. Think about it, on the occasions when you ate her food, was disrespect your intention? And if it wasn't, then how can you assume that losing the scissors is disrespectful on your wife's part?

Honestly, if you're going to pull this thing out of the ditch... I think you'd BOTH do well to redefine what "disrespect" means, and then maybe limit it to the biggies in your marriage, things like fidelity and fiscal responsibility. It's a strong word, a strong concept. I don't think it's something that should be bandied about haphazardly, because it infers deliberation and intent.

Consider the burdens. Someone who is organized creates no burden on the less or non-organized person. They suffer not one whit. Their perspective remains pure. But, conversely, the less or non-organized person can and usually will create a burden for the more organized person when existing in the same environment.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you on whether or not a "neatnik" creates no burden. Certainly, you're right that when it comes to being ready for guests or keeping track of household items, he doesn't. But, there's a psychological stress in living with someone who by his expectations demands perfection as proof of love and devotion. To my mind, that's a burden too.

March 10, 2008

Maam, that's not different than the stress of her expecting me to fix the house or her car or her brother's toilet or her sisters appliances.

You women are skillful debaters, but I have a female wired brain, so I'm up on all your methods.

I don't demand anything; my love and affection is conditional, just like yours is. I see it here on LS every day, how women place conditions on their men. Turnabout is fair play.

And yes, cleaning up after her does impact my fiscal responsibility, since it takes time, time I could be spending furthering our goals.

Edited March 10, 2008 by carhill

March 10, 2008

As long as a modicum of respect and love is maintained, differences are OK with me. But, oh, watch out when I eat that last slice of pie

Consider the burdens. Someone who is organized creates no burden on the less or non-organized person. They suffer not one whit. Their perspective remains pure. But, conversely, the less or non-organized person can and usually will create a burden for the more organized person when existing in the same environment.

Carhill, you are assuming that the organized person creates no burden on the non-organized - because you are the organized person . It is difficult for a non organized person to live with an organized one. I wouldn't personally choose the word burden for either, though I fully understand your example.

My mother was non-organized to an unbelievable degree. My father organized. His shop was perfection. The house much less so. Neither person did well. My mother was constantly fearful that she would not put something where it belonged and frustrate/displease him. She really worked at trying to be organized. It was difficult and created a burden for her, as she kept trying to take on attributes that didn't belong to her. She would have been perfectly happy spending hours looking for something she had put down somewhere. My father was constantly picking up and putting away things that were not where they belonged, a burden for him, especially when he needed the thing that was out of place.

Both experienced what you refer to as a burden. I personally like to see it as the enjoyment of differences - but maybe that's because I have a little too much of both of them inside me .

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