Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 Record Producer - I don't know how to drift apart! We only see eachother Saturday evenings s and Sunday all day. He initiates almost all of our calls. I would agree I can stop including him in plans as I do now - but frankly I would not enjoy myself without him. For example we are going to a casino night to benefit a charity we both want to support - I could have just paid for myself and gone alone, but one I hate going to these things alone and secondly I would miss having him with me. Of when I bought tickets to the ballet, I did not have to ask him if he wanted to go too - that one would have been simple, as another friend of mine is going as well - but he was so excited as it was his mother's favorite ballet and he's never seen it. My therapist feels I should not agree to go see (which really means I pay) his son when he gets back from Iraq - but how can I not support that?! Long story short his son's mother disappeared with him when the boy was only 4, b/f and his son have only been back in touch a few years and it is very important to b/f that they build a good relationship. UGH once again it all translates to the fact that I'm an idiot! See I truly believe we are a committed couple, and therefore we each bring what we can to the party. At the moment I am the one with the money, so I am the one that pays. I truly believe the tables will turn at some point - but I do not understand why I should have to wait until that happens for him to be willing to move forward. I also do not understand if we are a committed couple, with only one income, why we should be blowing savings on supporting two houses. And while I have agreed to compromise my religion for marriage (ie stop keeping kosher, allowing a Christmas tree in my house) I am unwilling to do that for living together.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 It's a catch 22, because if she doesn't pay then she doesn't get to have much fun either. Curiousnycgirl, since you are mid-40's, I'm going to assume your BF is roughly the same age. And I'll hazard the following guesses about him: Savings = $0 Stocks, Bonds, Annuities = $0 401K = $0 Real assets (other than his house) = $0 Based on your description of him, I've known a lot of similar folks. And I've come to believe that there is a link between his lack of financial discipline and goals and his lack of committment to you and your wants, needs and desires. I've seen it over and over... Mr. Lucky Ah but up until he lost his job he had all those things! Since then he has been living off the savings, investments, and I believe recently started tapping into the 401K. He does have a boat that he tells the therapist he will sell to pay me back for the lawyer (but he tells me he wants to build another garage to house the boat - so not sure which to believe). So if I believe that he is going to knock the ball out of the part, then I believe the savings etc. will be recouped. But I remain baffled why we are in two houses.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 I don't know the guy so I can't say for sure what his issues are but there is something about marriage that scares him. Maybe one of his friends is going through some stuff or it is something that happened in his family. It probably has nothing to do with you. That is pretty much my point. I know that what we have today is not enough for me, yet something in him will not allow it to move forward. So do I continue waiting and being a great g/f while my wants/desires get left by the wayside, or do I just move on? Again I do NOT want to give him an ultimatum - it's not how I would want to start a marriage - however I need to assess the viability of this relationship and whether my needs/wants will ever be met.
Woggle Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 You say that his son's mother just left with him at age 4. That might explain why he is so heistant to commit to a woman. He trusted one woman already and she ended up taking his son from him and when a man is betrayed by a woman it tends to taint his view of all women unless he does serious work on himself. It's not right for him to do this but you and the other women he wouldn't marry are paying for the sins of the one woman that did betray him.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 You say that his son's mother just left with him at age 4. That might explain why he is so heistant to commit to a woman. He trusted one woman already and she ended up taking his son from him and when a man is betrayed by a woman it tends to taint his view of all women unless he does serious work on himself. It's not right for him to do this but you and the other women he wouldn't marry are paying for the sins of the one woman that did betray him. Actually they were not together at the time. They only dated a few months, and were already broken up when she discovered she was pregnant. By the time his son was born, he was living in a different state. However he would visit often. The mother was in an abusive relationship and the government helped her disappear. So the private investigators he hired could not find her. Truth be told his son has confided in me that it's all BS since his grandparents never moved, and he lived with them for years while he was growing up, so if b/f wanted to find him, he could have. I'm still not sure how to interpret that one.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 Curiousnycgirl, since you are mid-40's, I'm going to assume your BF is roughly the same age. Mr. Lucky Forgot to answer this one - I will be 43 next month, he is 51.
StartingOver07 Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 CG, I am just not getting a good feeling here. You seem to have all the right feelings and expectations of a mature adult in a committed r/s, but I am not hearing the same about your BF. I understand that, at the moment, you are the one with the income, so you pay. But what is he giving to you? I am not hearing that he is contributing in other ways. By this I mean, in what ways does he take the lead in the r/s? You have it financially for now, but this does not mean you have to have it on all fronts. As to the issue of whether you should pay to see his son, my question is this: If your BF had the money to make this trip without you, would he be pressing for you to go with him? Are you sure this is the guy you truly want to be with forever?
Woggle Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 If this guy doesn't want to get married he should just be honest with you and then you can make a decision from that point. He shouldn't be stringing you along like this.
luvstarved Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 Luvstarved - thanks for all you've written. Just to clarify my issue with his not calling first when we were separated was not really a who called first, it was an issue with the fact that he was willing to let me go without any effort whatesoever. He im'd me saying he was shocked, that was it. When I ended it then (January 2007) I made it very clear that I loved him, but there was a significant issue that he was clearly not willing to work on - and that I could not take the rejection anymore (the issue was his lack of libido). I did not say "we" don't work, I did not say I did not care for him - I said I could not take his rejection. So if he had truly cared at the time, and if I was important to him, do you not think he would even call to say he would try? So yes I guess to a large degree I question if he loves me - of if I've just made it easy. I agree that overall we do have a great relationship - but I have alway said I am looking for marriage, and to share my life - and he said he was looking for the same. Not just weekends. We live over an hour apart, and do not see eachother during the week - so for the most part is Saturday evenings and Sundays. We speak throughout the week - several times a day (mostly initiated by him) - and if we have plans we see each other during the week, but generally not. I simply want this relationship to move forward, and it's not. I tried to take the initiative and basically proposed to him - and he rejected me. He had several reasons for it, not the least of which is he wants to be the man and be the one to propose. Fine then do it! It's been 9 freaking months! marriage is the next logical step. Again thank you for your input - I will think about all of it - and am seeing my therapsit tonight, so will be discusing next steps further. Oh yes, I did understand that the part that bothered you about him not calling was the implicit lack of care/commitment... A few other thoughts...I read back and noticed that you mentioned also not being cherished by your parents...and nearly breaking up over sex issues. Very similar to my situation...in counseling it has come out that "legacy" life always comes into relationships one way or another...I was the last of 5 kids so never got the attention/love I craved either and that makes it super-important to me in marriage (and I don't get it either but am working on it)...Also I threatened to leave my H over sexless life and he also "stepped up" but things still aren't as intimate as I want on that score... So I can relate to your situation. I don't know if I would still be with my H if he skirted marriage... Another similarity though is an outward strength that might in some ways come across as stubbornness or an independence that you would LIKE to let go of a little!!! In other words, it might come across that you want to be cherished, maybe caretaken a little, get the I-love-you-as-much-as-you-love-me feedback...but you also want to not compromise on certain things (which is fair enough) and that *could* come out as intimidating at some level. I am blathering but my points are that 1) Might be telling to consider the legacy that both of you bring to the relaitonship 2) Your strength might be experienced as pressure/intimidation by him ( not saying it is right but it could be true) 3) I wonder if it would help the situation if you allowed your vulnerability to come out...so many times parties in a relationship would see that their thinking is closer if they would just be honest. For instance, I can't help but think that there aren't some aspects of living together/being married that scare you a little...but rather than doing a virtual toe-tapping with arms folded waiting for him to cough up a proposal...might go further to just talk about your emotional reality in the situation... I wonder how much for each of you his failure to propose sits like the white elephant in the relationship...in that scenario, it might make sense that he has a lingering reluctance... Anyway by projecting vulnerability vs strength I am thinking of something like the contrast between these two speeches (neither of which do I mean to imply to be representation of your actual communication style, but just as a "for instance") "I have been waiting years for you to ask to marry me. I just can't keep waiting. You know that is what I want and you say it is what you want too but you keep dragging your heels. I get the message that you want to be the one to ask, but I keep waiting and nothing happens. I really wonder if you want to even get married at all. What is the problem here? Why are we living in two separate houses? It's such a waste. I want to get on with it and don't know what I have to do to get you to get off the stick and get to the next level already! I'm not going to wait forever. Do you love me or not? Make up your mind!" vs "You know that I want to get married and you say you do too. I love you and I want you to be happy and I do not want you to do anything that you are not fully happy with. That is why I feel so sad and confused as to why things go on with no forward progress. In my mind, I feel as though perhaps you really do not want to get married and I do not know whether that has more to do with me or with you but at times I feel that you don't really want what I want and are just afraid to say so. But it isn't fair to either of us to continue with no better understanding of each other than we have. I don't want you to marry me because you feel pressured to or if it for some reason is not what you want. Neither do I want to get married if it isn't the right thing for us. There are aspects of it that scare me to tell you the truth. But I don't know what your real feelings are and am not sure you understand mine. Do you think we can work on understanding each other better so that we don't keep guessing about the other's needs and feelings?" Or something like that. As for you spending your money on the recreational stuff, I would throttle that back somewhat. Not in any in-your-face "I'm not doing that anymore way" just - if it comes up - a simple "I really can't afford that" or similar. Just to maybe smooth one edge of resentment for now...
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 StartingOver - you are right I am not accurately portraying his contribution, at the moment I know it's there, I just can't articulate it. My therapist wondered the same thing until him met my b/f and saw the two of us together. He then did a 180 and agreed there was something special there. Woggle - yup that's where I am now. And if he says yes he wants to get married, how do I believe him? Do I give him a timeline? Wouldn't that be the same as an ultimatum? UGH hate this situation.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 Luvstarved you are right, my intent was to present the case in the second manner, not the first - although I know I do come off as very strong and very independent. The few times I have tried to indicate that I am getting overwhelmed, and could really use help - he sort of barked at me. Most recent example is that I am interviewing for a job that will require me to start going into an office everyday again. I expressed concern to him that caring for my dog (who I sort of inherited when a friend died), while having to physically be in the office is going to be a greater challenge (it's why I never got a dog before). I then said see it's just one more example of why it is so hard living alone. His answer was well you need to have contingency plans when you have a dog and then elaborated on all the trouble he would go to when he had a dog and had to travel unexpectedly. Truth be told all I wanted him to say is "if you find yourself in a bind, you can always call me." But he didn't say that. Hence the resentment continues to build. I know he is good, and good to me. I know I would not love him if he wasn't. Truth is he puts up with my family, which is NOT easy. When the chips are down, he is there for me (I just don't require a lot of care and feeding). He does little things that he knows I hate to do - like a few weeks ago I was running errands and he vacuumed my house (trust me that is huge for me and it's 3200 sq ft). He offers to help all the time - reality is his help is just not always useful. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your input, and your thoughtful responses.
Ariadne Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 I am not cold, nor am I heartless, however I have spent my entire life doing for others at my own expense, and frankly this is not something I am willing to forego. I want to truly share my life with a man that I love, my b/f is not willing to do that. Does that make any sense? I can see that you are defending that guy with your nails. Ok, the guy doesn't want to marry you (probably if you told him to move in with you I'm pretty sure he'd say no, even though you don't want that either). He doesn't pay for the dates, trips, vacation, etc. He doesn't give you any sex. You break up with him and he couldn't care less, and you end up calling him. It seems like this wonderful thing is all in your head and you are trying to be nice. Truly, I don't see what is there to love about that guy other than a better than nothing. He'd be better off as a friend.
SoleMate Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 (edited) However how long should I keep doing the same old same old? Should I wait until I'm 50 before I find out that this relationship won't go any further? No, that would be wasting your time. I think the moment is now ripe. You two want different things, he is not willing or able to change, you can't stand the way things are now, so there you have it, all the reasons you need. You do NOT need to give him a reason. Sure, if he asks and you want to, fine. But in general, "discussing reasons" for a breakup is really just a failure to end the r/s cleanly. Such discussions don't accomplish much, if anything - they just prolong the contact and crisis and agony/annoyance. Edited March 6, 2008 by SoleMate can't!!!
Mr. Lucky Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 So if I believe that he is going to knock the ball out of the part, then I believe the savings etc. will be recouped. Ah, but that's the nature of this kind of guy. He's always just inches away from the next big deal, the next chance to "knock the ball out of the park". Meanwhile, there are other folks steadily working away at conventional jobs and carreers that build long term financial security. And therefore my comparison between financial and long-term relationship committment. In takes the same determination and resolve to be successful in either... Mr. Lucky
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 I can see that you are defending that guy with your nails. Ok, the guy doesn't want to marry you (probably if you told him to move in with you I'm pretty sure he'd say no, even though you don't want that either). He doesn't pay for the dates, trips, vacation, etc. He doesn't give you any sex. You break up with him and he couldn't care less, and you end up calling him. It seems like this wonderful thing is all in your head and you are trying to be nice. Truly, I don't see what is there to love about that guy other than a better than nothing. He'd be better off as a friend. I understand why you say that, but I disagree that it is all in my head.
Ariadne Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 I understand why you say that, but I disagree that it is all in my head. I meant this part: I just thought I was part of something wonderful, and as part of a committed couple you help eachother out, pay for things, whatever. You still want to see it that way.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 No, that would be wasting your time. I think the moment is now ripe. You two want different things, he is not willing or able to change, you can't stand the way things are now, so there you have it, all the reasons you need. You do NOT need to give him a reason. Sure, if he asks and you want to, fine. But in general, "discussing reasons" for a breakup is really just a failure to end the r/s cleanly. Such discussions don't accomplish much, if anything - they just prolong the contact and crisis and agony/annoyance. WOW harsh - probably true, but still harsh. How do you just walk away from someone you love? I guess that is my challenge here.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 Ah, but that's the nature of this kind of guy. He's always just inches away from the next big deal, the next chance to "knock the ball out of the park". Meanwhile, there are other folks steadily working away at conventional jobs and carreers that build long term financial security. And therefore my comparison between financial and long-term relationship committment. In takes the same determination and resolve to be successful in either... Mr. Lucky Really good points. However he was gainfully employed for all the years up until I seven months into our relationship. Then he was let go, and unable to find a new job (he even spent thousands on 2 separate search firms). When he could not find a job, he started branching out on his own. So do you think he just suddenly changed into the type of person who is consistently inches away from the next big deal, or is he someone doing the best he can in a really bad situation?
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 I meant this part: I just thought I was part of something wonderful, and as part of a committed couple you help eachother out, pay for things, whatever. You still want to see it that way. No that's why I said I understood why you said what you said, but I still don't think it is all in my head - maybe just a lot of it, as I likely make more allowances than I should.
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 OMG the therapit let the cat out of the bag - basically told b/f to cancel his plans, that it was critical that he come to therapy tonight, etc. So b/f called me to find out what was going on, immediately saying that if I felt it was a priority for him to be there, then he would be. I told him no it can wait until tuesday (our normal night - I was traveling this week for business so my appt got moved to thursday). We then had a lengthy discussion about what is going on. I was very up front that I felt I was giving my all and he wasn't. He agreed that I have given way more, to which I said I didn't want that type of validation. I said I have only asked for one thing, and while clearly it is huge, it is equally clear he is not interested in giving it to me. His concern is that he doesn't want marriage to be in response to a financial imperartive. I said that if all things are equal, money should not be allowed to stand in the way. I further stated all the things I've said above, about the absurdity of continuing to spend unnecessary money. He saw my point, but is not comfortable with it. I made it very clear that I will not/cannot wait around forever, and frankly feel we are past due. However I further stated that this was not an ultimatum, it was a fact and if he did not want to marry me, then that is that. He kept saying no he does want to marry me - but frankly I'm not buying it. UGH - this feels AWFUL.
lexi29 Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 OMG the therapit let the cat out of the bag - basically told b/f to cancel his plans, that it was critical that he come to therapy tonight, etc. So b/f called me to find out what was going on, immediately saying that if I felt it was a priority for him to be there, then he would be. I told him no it can wait until tuesday (our normal night - I was traveling this week for business so my appt got moved to thursday). We then had a lengthy discussion about what is going on. I was very up front that I felt I was giving my all and he wasn't. He agreed that I have given way more, to which I said I didn't want that type of validation. I said I have only asked for one thing, and while clearly it is huge, it is equally clear he is not interested in giving it to me. His concern is that he doesn't want marriage to be in response to a financial imperartive. I said that if all things are equal, money should not be allowed to stand in the way. I further stated all the things I've said above, about the absurdity of continuing to spend unnecessary money. He saw my point, but is not comfortable with it. I made it very clear that I will not/cannot wait around forever, and frankly feel we are past due. However I further stated that this was not an ultimatum, it was a fact and if he did not want to marry me, then that is that. He kept saying no he does want to marry me - but frankly I'm not buying it. UGH - this feels AWFUL. I am really sorry that you are going through this. Has your bf had any individual therapy? Maybe to explore the possibility that he is afraid of commitment? You sound like a very good person, responsible, kind, thoughtful of others, etc. You've helped him through some tough times and stuck with him when others may not have (when he lost his job etc) I'm not going to debate whether he is a good guy vs bad guy. I don't know him. Obviously you care for him a lot and there are good things in your relationship that we (posters) don't know about. I've been in your shoes dating the guy who kept promising marriage and never moved forward. It is frustrating how he keeps dangling the carrot (yes, I want to get married... someday) and you think you have a chance. That one day he is going to suddenly decide he wants to get married. It hurts very badly to leave the one you love. My ex was a decent guy and we had a lot in common and had good times together. However he was just like your bf. He always had a different excuse as to why we couldn't get married right now (or soon). He would tell me he was going to propose to me by Thanksgiving (pick a holiday) and then Thanksgiving would come and go and there was always some excuse. I noticed that your bf has given you many different excuses. Such as -he wants to get married in Europe, but guess what he cant' afford it. He wants his son to be there - and you suggested getting married when you went to visit his son and he shot that down, then he doesn't want to get married because YOU proposed and HE wants to do the asking. Now he doesn't think its a good time because of his financial situation. I'm sure there will be many more excuses in the future (hope I'm wrong though) I think he is happy with the status quo and doesnt' want anything to change. I also think he is placating you by telling you he wants to get married but I honestly don't think he will follow through with it. I don't think he wants to lose you but I think his fear or negative feelings about marriage will be greater than his fear of letting you go. I personally believe actions speak alot louder than words so if you let go of his words how do you really feel he thinks about getting married?
Author curiousnycgirl Posted March 6, 2008 Author Posted March 6, 2008 I think he is happy with the status quo and doesnt' want anything to change. I also think he is placating you by telling you he wants to get married but I honestly don't think he will follow through with it. I don't think he wants to lose you but I think his fear or negative feelings about marriage will be greater than his fear of letting you go. I personally believe actions speak alot louder than words so if you let go of his words how do you really feel he thinks about getting married? He has been in individual counseling since January 07 - in response to my ending things then. I hear what you are saying about him placating me - and he knows I am still tentative, nothing has been resolved from the one conversation. He has also agreed to joint counseling on Tuesday. I do not want him to marry me out of fear of losing me, I want him to want to marry me, and I kept saying that over and over during the call. Now I guess I just have to keep plowing forward and see where this takes me. Thank you so much for your post.
Mr. Lucky Posted March 6, 2008 Posted March 6, 2008 So do you think he just suddenly changed into the type of person who is consistently inches away from the next big deal, or is he someone doing the best he can in a really bad situation? The kind of "rainy days" you describe are part of a financial plan. A job search can't be open ended, especially if one has financial obligations. At some point, one needs to be employed, regardless of the job's place in one's career trajectory. By avoiding a real and lasting committment to you, he dodges the need to make those kind of decisions. The parameters involved in planning a single life are very different from those pertaining to marriage... Mr. Lucky
RecordProducer Posted March 7, 2008 Posted March 7, 2008 He initiates almost all of our calls. Good. This is in your favor. frankly I would not enjoy myself without him. I know. But this is precisely the thing that makes him feel so secure in the relationship, so he can afford not to propose. The cow and the milk syndrome, as Curm suggested. He can have your company anyway, so why bother to propose you? but he was so excited as it was his mother's favorite ballet and he's never seen it.This reminds me: are you sure he isn't a mamma's boy? Just a thought, maybe the lady died long time ago. My therapist feels I should not agree to go see (which really means I pay) his son when he gets back from Iraq - but how can I not support that?! I think your therapist is giving him/herself way too much freedom in counseling you. They are there to help you get over issues and feel better overall, not to tell you what to do, especially about things that are innocent and irrelevant, and their advice is against your will and nature. At the moment I am the one with the money, so I am the one that pays. You know, I am starting to think that this is all about his unlucky financial position, and he even said that he wants to get married when he is able to afford to take his bride.... in other words when he has a stable income. If he is currently unemployed, he feels like less of a man and therefore is not ready to be somebody's man. I've been in a marriage where I've had nothing and the husband was a provider. I've had such traumatic experience due to this fact that I promised myself that I will never ever let any man support me. And I am a young woman. So I can imagine how he as a man feels. He obviously wants to make as much as you or even close to your income or more. I honestly can't blame him for that. Also, what he said that HE wants to be the one to propose means that he IS thinking about it or he would have just broken up by now. He knows it's important to you and he probably wouldn't just waste your time intentionally knowing that he will never marry you. I think it's really about his financial status. What's his occupation? Is he likely to get a decent job anytime soon? while I have agreed to compromise my religion for marriage (ie stop keeping kosher, allowing a Christmas tree in my house) I am unwilling to do that for living together.Why would you stop keeping Kosher if you get married? By the way, do you plan to have children? Have you ever been married before? If not, I can tell you, marriage is not as good as you think. It brings troubles that you don't have now as a dating couple and the romance wears off before you even take off your wedding gown.
Ariadne Posted March 7, 2008 Posted March 7, 2008 (he even spent thousands on 2 separate search firms)... So do you think he just suddenly changed into the type of person who is consistently inches away from the next big deal, or is he someone doing the best he can in a really bad situation? I know people like that too, that are one week away from becoming millionaires. All paca paca. And they've been like that for 10+ years and struggling to buy food. Spending thousands on search firms and not finding a job sounds like a pretty bad money move. Your bf is probably going to spend all of his savings and then might want to move in with you.
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