Not sure what position to take on this

[midwest]

Hello. This is my first post and I'm looking for some outside perspective on my current situation. I appreciate any input and I apologize for the long post. The history is relevant to the current issue.

 

A little background info:

Girlfriend and I have been together for a little over 3 years and I love her deeply. Exactly 1 year ago I discovered through email she had cheated on me with my best friend. I felt heart broken, despair, and humiliation. The first time in my life that feelings turned into actual physical pain in my chest. This was a friend that I also worked with in the past, who no doubt disclosed information to other friends and co-workers after the fact.

I decided to attempt to forgive for a couple reasons:

1) I had been somewhat distant and while I wasn't necessarily doing anything inappropriate, I had started to take her for granted. I had created an environment that was ripe for this.

2) My "friend" had told her multiple lies about me which I read in the emails when I discovered the relationship. Lies such as I had at one point had an STD, I had cheated or attempted to cheat on her on multiple occasions, I had said bad things about her, and a few other more minor things.

3) She took full responsibility and I could tell she was extremely distraught to the point of not understanding or believing that she should or could be forgiven.

4) She had told him in email that she would not ever choose him over me in the long run.

 

We decided that we were going to start something new, as getting back what we had before would mean nothing. We decided that we needed to voice concerns and discuss our problems. We decided we needed to disclose anything of importance in our past (I had nothing, she had apparently given her number to a semi-famous musician, but then broke it off when he called). I had read a book or two on recovering from cheating and she browsed through one. I tried to make suggestions as given in the books. One of the suggestions was that the cheater would not have a private life for a while until the person cheated on had regained trust. This includes being able to read emails. For about a week and half she gave me access to her email (the same email that I discovered the affair on), but then stopped.

 

In spite of this, we have had a great year, and I don't have a reason to believe that she has cheated again. However, I have a current situation that I'm not sure how to handle. I don't know if I am overreacting or not.

 

The current situation is:

Last Friday day I was working from home since I am not currently on a project. I have been digitizing all my DVDs and then converting them to a smaller format so I can use a computer to play them back in my living room (I'm not really that big of a geek, it is just convenient). Anyway, to do the conversion I have to use her computer since mine takes the better part of a day. I called her, asked if I could use it and what for, she said yes and gave me the password. She called right back and asked me to wait until she got home because she knew I was going to read her emails and she didn't want me to get upset. I told her it hadn't crossed my mind, but that I was concerned now because she brought this up. Long story short, she ended up leaving work because of this and picked up her computer and went back to work.

 

Of course, after this discussion I used those 10 minutes to investigate. I didn't see anything regarding cheating, but I did see some "odd" conversations with her friend. Something about the musician I mentioned from above, something about some guy calling her or her friend a whore.

 

She said we could go through the emails when she got home later and that she wanted to be there so she could answer questions. This was apparently just a line so I would drop it, as she has refused to show me the emails. She has refused to discuss my concerns because "she doesn't think its worth talking about". I have tried explaining that I do think it is worth talking about and when one of us has a concern the other should consider it important. She is completely stonewalling me on the issue with how she acted about the email and said I should just consider it "girl talk". I have trouble with this because I don't lock my computer and my email client is always open. She could look back into emails from 7 years ago and I would have nothing to hide. I don't have discussions with people that could be mis-understood by 3rd parties, so this is odd to me. Is this truly a girl talk issue or do I need to press the issue? I really do want things to work out and I do understand that it can be frustrating for her to try to regain my trust.

 

Thanks for any input.

[Geishawhelk]

First of all, I can equate with the girlie talk... we gurlz do sometimes open our hearts and have a bit of a whinge with our fellow ladies, about things that rile us about our B/Fs because.... it's what we do. it's how we vent, get it off our chests and just generally air any little grieviances, and get them out in the open with friends.

It's not necessarily anything really bad... but it saves hitting our fist through a door, getting drunk or bottling things up. Like some (but not all) macho guys do.

But I think she may just be sharing some stuff with buddies, and doesn't want to possibly hurt your feelings.

 

You say you're very open, honest about your computer.

 

Now see, this is admirable, but it's just an example of how things work differently in a lady's mind.

Let me ask - who do you offload to, have a bit of a gossip with, and get things off your chest to? If there's something just niggling at you, and you want to just clea the air, without bothering or involving her, just 'cos' you need to talk a bit.... Who do you chat to on your PC, via e-mail?

If you're struggling for an answer, or you just come up with this forum, then there's the point I'm making...

THIS SAID:

She shouldn't say she's going to do one thing, then clam up and refuse to do it. That's a bit naughty.

I think you just need to reassure her that you trust her completely, but she also has to be open to discussion, if she says that you can go over things together.

I would only start getting really suspicious if her behaviour begins to change, she goes out alot, that kind of thing.

In my opinion, she was a little foolish; it wasn't right to tell you one thing then refuse to engage in further talk... but I suspect it's simply just a girlie thing.

Try not to worry too much.

 

But that's just my bit.

[midwest]

Wow. That was a very well stated response. Is this really the internet that I know:) . I appreciate the reassurance. Do you by chance do counseling as a profession?

 

To answer your question about who I vent to, the answer would be no-one. I believe the reason for this is two fold. First, I don't like airing dirty laundry and I don't want people to question our relationship based on some minor "quirk" that I brought up. Second, I am often too busy to get into these types of discussions with people. If I have the time to do something like that, I would rather spend it hanging out with my SO.

Now in serious situations, I talk to my parents and I have a friend of nearly 20 years that I can confide in when necessary (for example, the situation 1 year ago), but those are reserved for only the most serious of problems.

 

Not sure if I made it clear above, but my biggest concern is the method of communication she has chosen on this. I would be lying if I said I didn't have a curiosity and a desire for an explanation to the emails after the way it was handled, but the lack of communication is what really worries me.

I have been actively considering a future with this woman and I know that this is not an effective way to deal with this situation. We really are a very close couple and I adore her, so this is somewhat like a slap in the face (or maybe just a pinch on the arm).

[Geishawhelk]

Wow. That was a very well stated response. Is this really the internet that I know:) . I appreciate the reassurance. Do you by chance do counseling as a profession?

Yes, I do.

 

To answer your question about who I vent to, the answer would be no-one. I believe the reason for this is two fold. First, I don't like airing dirty laundry and I don't want people to question our relationship based on some minor "quirk" that I brought up. Second, I am often too busy to get into these types of discussions with people. If I have the time to do something like that, I would rather spend it hanging out with my SO.

Now in serious situations, I talk to my parents and I have a friend of nearly 20 years that I can confide in when necessary (for example, the situation 1 year ago), but those are reserved for only the most serious of problems.

Thank you.

This serves absolutly to illustrate what I was saying before. Ther;'s nothing wrong with doing things differently; it's not a superior/inferior situation. I am just pointing out that men and Women are hard-wire in diffeent ways, and we express ourslves in ways we feel comfortable.

I fully understand what you are saying about 'airing dirty laundry', and others 'questioning the relationship based on a minor quirk'.... I take it and read into this that you are extremely serious and dedicated about this relationship.

This doesn't mean she isn't, necessarily. She expresses herself in different ways. it does not indicate she takes your relationship in any a lighter way, or that she does not deem it worthy of serious intent. It's just the different ways women handle things...

As you so pertinently pointed out, you either discuss things with her, or with really serious situations, you either have your parents, or a good friend of 20 years' standing. So for you, it's either her, or them. but if it's them, then it's pretty serious stuff....

Women are different... they... 'spread the tension out' ....if you like. They air their 'problems and niggles' and diffuse things that way. "A problem shared," and all that.

There's nothing wrong with your approach.

there's nothing wrong with hers.

It's only when they conflict and cause a diversion in the 'meeting of Minds' that porblems arise....

 

Not sure if I made it clear above, but my biggest concern is the method of communication she has chosen on this. I would be lying if I said I didn't have a curiosity and a desire for an explanation to the emails after the way it was handled, but the lack of communication is what really worries me.

 

And I''ll be honest with you - on the face of it, I'm a bit concerned too.

I say "on the face of it", because, if you will forgive me, I only have your side of the reasoning, here.

I am not suggesting for one moment you are either lying or being biased. But because I cannot have her opinions, fears, points of view or reasonings on this, it's very hard for me to give you a completely 'level playing field' opinion.... Do you see? As far as her 'side of things' is concerned - it's all hypothesis on my part...

But she does seem to have a mild block when it comes to the communication issue. And a far as I am concerned, that forms part of the fundamental basis and solid support for a relationship. In order for a relationship to function healthily and to be complete and cohesive, Trust, Communication and Respect are the three essential requirements. Take one of these away, and the other two are insufficient to 'hold things up' on their own.

I don't know her background, her history of previous relationships, or her relationship with her family. Communication issues stem very often from inherited or learnt conditioning.

I am merely wondering whether she has had communication issues in the past.

maybe she feels hurt because it looks as if you don't trust her, and she fears you will read things into the emails hat aren't here... she's gone on the defensive a bit. But I (not knowing her mind,) can't say whether it is justified or not...

I have been actively considering a future with this woman and I know that this is not an effective way to deal with this situation. We really are a very close couple and I adore her, so this is somewhat like a slap in the face (or maybe just a pinch on the arm).

 

I think you need to take her out for a meal (neutral territory) reassure her of your feelings for her (women constantly need reassurance and validation. I know, it's crazy. but I'm a woman. I know therse things!) we need telling and reassuring that we are important and valuable, needed and loved.

Then tell her you want everything to be good between you, because you see yourselves enjoying a long-term relationship together.

try to understand a woman has 'little secrets'. They're not intended to be malicious or spiteful. They're just our little foibles.

tell her you know this.

tell her it's hard 'for a bloke' to understand this... women will always be a mystery to guys ! - but just because you're having difficultly understanding her, it doesn't mean you don't trust her....

 

Then swing it from there....

 

I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do.

I'm just 'hanging' and giving a scenario....

[midwest]

Thanks again for the response. I have certainly attempted to be as forthcoming with information as I can to make this unbiased, but I'm sure even my best efforts wouldn't be a completely accurate representation of things from her view.

 

All in all, none of this is a short term deal breaker, I'm just trying to ensure long term survivability. I'll follow your suggestion on reassuring my trust of her and my lack of understanding, but acceptance, of girl talk.

 

Thanks again.

[Bryanp]

You judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions are speaking volumes. If the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would be so accepting as you have been? There clearly is more to this story and I think you know this.

[Cobra_X30]

Y

This serves absolutly to illustrate what I was saying before. Ther;'s nothing wrong with doing things differently; it's not a superior/inferior situation. I am just pointing out that men and Women are hard-wire in diffeent ways, and we express ourslves in ways we feel comfortable.

I fully understand what you are saying about 'airing dirty laundry', and others 'questioning the relationship based on a minor quirk'.... I take it and read into this that you are extremely serious and dedicated about this relationship.

 

GW, I understand what your saying... and I pretty much agree, it's just on the whole I'm not sure if he really needs to be MORE understanding of his GF. To be completely honest... it sounds like the vast majority of problems are on her end of the relationship.

 

I realize we are only hearing one side of the story... but we should be focusing on the actions involved anyway, not the opinions.

 

Thanks again for the response. I have certainly attempted to be as forthcoming with information as I can to make this unbiased, but I'm sure even my best efforts wouldn't be a completely accurate representation of things from her view.

All in all, none of this is a short term deal breaker, I'm just trying to ensure long term survivability. I'll follow your suggestion on reassuring my trust of her and my lack of understanding, but acceptance, of girl talk.

Thanks again.

 

Ok, You've already encountered an issue once where "girl talk" lead to cheating. I really doubt that your friend was ragging on you and your GF just said... no that's BS. Is there a possibility he got the greenlight to say that stuff when she started bashing on you first? I've noticed that's how things usually start.

 

Second, after such a short time... what gives her the right to be so demanding of your trust, when she has essentially done ZERO to earn it back.

 

I know you've shouldered a good chunk of the blame for what happened before, but honestly, it sounds like your putting in all the effort to fix this. I'm sure she is a lovely woman.... but don't you deserve someone who you can trust? Someone who respects you?

[carhill]

Don't fall on your sword. Just the fact that she'd leave work to snatch up her laptop speaks volumes. Who knows what isn't on that computer? More importantly, something impelled her to act like that. That's just not normal behavior.

 

The counselor brought up a good point. Who exactly do men vent their emotions to? Not other guys, IME. One, they don't care; two, they then see you as "weak" because you don't have your "woman under control". I've see a lifetime of this personally and know from vast experience as both an emotional man and a sounding board for other men (and women).

 

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would not continue the relationship without counseling. If she doesn't agree, leave.

[midwest]

A few quick responses. The things that my friend said were witnessed by me, not said by her. She actually wanted to take the whole blame. I saw the full string of conversations as they unfolded chronologically in email and at this point confronted her. The majority of their relationship was through email, so I saw the majority of their conversation. As stated above, the fact that I saw the way he attempted to control the situation was one of the reasons I ever even considered trying to work things out with her and ditch him. When confronted about the things he said he admitted it and said he didn't know why he said them (of course us guys know exactly why he said them).

 

We just talked briefly and she actually brought up going to couples counseling on her own without provocation from me, so that statement above is very timely. She said she knows that I have been saving for an engagement ring and that she would be happy if I used that money for my share of it, and go smaller on the ring when/if the time actually comes.

 

The issue of being demanding with my trust so early is one of the hang ups I have.

[carhill]

We just talked briefly and she actually brought up going to couples counseling on her own without provocation from me, so that statement above is very timely.

 

Make the call today

[Geishawhelk]

I'm really pleased other people came in with their own perspectives. It's so difficult on a board like this to be able to cover all the bases - not that any one person can, of course....

 

But in an odd way, you have just shared a dilemma with others on a board... whereas usually you wouldn't do something like this... As carhill confirmed, it's difficult for guys to do this....

 

But I didn't want to imply that No men do this and All women do. Sorry to all if I gave that impression.... It's hard to think of everything when you're typing - !!

 

I'm glad you managed to come in here and talk about it.

And I'm glad something constructive seems to be coming of the whole situation.

 

Midwest, let us know how you guys get on.

 

If you want to....

[Cobra_X30]

A few quick responses. The things that my friend said were witnessed by me, not said by her. She actually wanted to take the whole blame. I saw the full string of conversations as they unfolded chronologically in email and at this point confronted her. The majority of their relationship was through email, so I saw the majority of their conversation. As stated above, the fact that I saw the way he attempted to control the situation was one of the reasons I ever even considered trying to work things out with her and ditch him. When confronted about the things he said he admitted it and said he didn't know why he said them (of course us guys know exactly why he said them).

 

We just talked briefly and she actually brought up going to couples counseling on her own without provocation from me, so that statement above is very timely. She said she knows that I have been saving for an engagement ring and that she would be happy if I used that money for my share of it, and go smaller on the ring when/if the time actually comes.

 

The issue of being demanding with my trust so early is one of the hang ups I have.

 

It seems odd to me that she would accept what your friend was saying, and then continue that forward into an affair. Did she try to confront you about it beforehand?

 

The way it sounds... your friend began gossiping about you... behind your back to your GF. She essentially ate it up, without notifying you, and began cheating behind your back. It just really sounds like your blaming the friend too much for this. Even if he was the manipulator... she seems to be too willing.

 

Really you know better than I how things went. It's just, were I in your shoes... I would feel so disrespected.

 

Make the call today

 

I second that!

[sally4sara]

I just wanted to throw in that if she was having girl talk in the emails and there is something she doesn't want you to see, it doesn't have to be a secret of HER'S. Her friend might have shared something with her that she knows her friend doesn't want out in the open.

 

I'd have my guard up too over this; you have every reason to not be so trusting. Just didn't want you to not at least consider that it might be something personal about her friend's life that she is trying to protect.

[midwest]

I am not being blind to this and I agree the behavior is suspect. At some point I feel you just have to make a decision based on the things you know and the things you think you know. Like most of the people here I consider the behavior to be suspicious when isolated. When I think about our relationship climate as a whole, I have a woman who spends every free moment with me. 10 or 15 minutes after work until morning, weekends, family events. She comes through the door happy to see me with a big hug and kiss, and leaves sad, again with a big hug and kiss. She buys little gifts (and big ones), bakes gifts for me, plans baby names, and even though she would prefer to stay here at home, recommends we move elsewhere so I can get the specific position I am looking for (very specific IT position).

 

I am not defending her behavior past or present, I am just pointing out the whole picture so you can see why I am making the decisions I am.

 

Cobra. You and I would likely see eye to eye on a lot of things. You are picking up on the exact details I did. She never directly confronted me. As I mentioned earlier, our relationship was sort of growing apart and I was traveling a lot. We simply were not communicating but were just tolerating each other....barely. She did say things like "you never had an STD did you", to which I would respond truthfully "no". When I asked why she would ask such a thing "oh, just curious". I dismissed this as silly talk where girls start thinking about that stuff.

 

She did eat up the gossip from the friend. We have established together that none of it would have happened if we would have been more open with each other. She was too willing. Doing anything is too willing isn't it? She was also devastated, and took entire responsibility. She said none of what was said to her was an excuse for what she did, when she could have easily played that card (her sense of personal responsibility for her actions is one of the reasons above for choosing to heal things). She has not once said anything other than that it was her fault and that it was unforgivable, meanwhile, my friend lied to me when confronted the first time, and the second time had no explanation. He had just as much responsibility to avoid (not provoke?) the situation as she did, but took none of the responsibility. All of her friends, when they found out, basically gave her the "what the f*ck were you thinking" treatment.

Disrespect is only one of many words that would describe the way I felt and probably the least offensive. Devastated would be a very accurate word. I was so devastated I couldn't work, I cried the first 2 weeks straight, and over the course of 5 weeks lost 35lbs (I am not overweight to start with).

While we have been together for 3 years, this past year has been different than the rest because we communicate openly and we don't avoid the touchy subjects. This incident is the first deviation I have seen from that.

 

sally4sara. It is funny that you mention that. She actually did say that I didn't have the right to see things that her friends had said. This was another major basis behind her actions. True or not I don't know, but it came out fast and I know her closest friend does have some weird stories.

 

In summary (sheesh, another long one). In the end, is it possible/plausible that the reasons she has stated are the actual reasons she acted the way she has. Yes.

In general, has she shown me she is serious about our relationship and thrilled to be in my company (which wasn't the case previous the incident 1 year ago). Yes.

Could I be a fool who is making the wrong decision. Yes, but I have to make a decision and commit to it. I know some people will cringe and others will applaud.

 

We have started looking at counselors. We will make a decision tomorrow and I will be making the appointment tomorrow. I'll gladly continue to answer questions, give updates, etc. It does feel a little better to get some outside perspective on the situation.

[Cobra_X30]

In summary (sheesh, another long one). In the end, is it possible/plausible that the reasons she has stated are the actual reasons she acted the way she has. Yes.

In general, has she shown me she is serious about our relationship and thrilled to be in my company (which wasn't the case previous the incident 1 year ago). Yes.

Could I be a fool who is making the wrong decision. Yes, but I have to make a decision and commit to it. I know some people will cringe and others will applaud.

We have started looking at counselors. We will make a decision tomorrow and I will be making the appointment tomorrow. I'll gladly continue to answer questions, give updates, etc. It does feel a little better to get some outside perspective on the situation.

 

Yeah, I completely agree with what your saying here, and I think your taking the right steps.

 

See there is this weird line between personal privacy, and open sharing within a relationship. Most people require a certain balance of both.

 

I cringe when I read her reaction to you even having the possibility of looking at her computer, because she is really pushing the openess out of your relationship just to preserve her personal privacy. Honestly, that is 100% selfish in motivation. In many ways it's her saying that she does not "trust" you with the information contained on her computer. Does that make sense?

 

Of course on some level you probably feel as though she doesn't deserve that privacy... because she has taken advantage of it before. But what gets to me is that there is something on the computer she doesn't trust you in knowing.

 

Sometimes those people who view themselves as untrustworthy, also tend to find themselves unable to trust anyone else.

 

Why do you think she doesn't trust you with what's on the computer? Are you going to pick a fight? Are you going to gossip or think bad of a friend of hers?

[midwest]

Cobra. You and I are seeing eye to eye on this at this point. We still haven't established what the line is between personal privacy and being blatantly secretive. Yes, wondering what is on that computer is something I am going to have to get used to, for the time being at least. As far as I have gathered from our talking, it is a combination of her friends secrets and probably some venting about me as geisha mentioned above. I also believe there is some conversation around her not knowing if I was ever going to marry her with her mother, which probably raised the question of whether the relationship should continue. We have established that I have planned to have her in my future as a wife, but these conversations were prior to that.

 

I honestly think she fears that we will have an episode of sorts because I will really analyze things and possibly make something out of nothing (I over analyze things sometimes). I don't argue or yell, but I ask a lot of questions (in all aspects of my life, not just with her). I know this frustrates her. Stonewalling, while it prevents the over analyzing, causes all sorts of other issues. She also is afraid to set a precedent for me being able to check her email "because I'm worried" even though the worry wasn't there until the dash home to grab the laptop. These are both valid concerns though as are mine. I really think the counseling is the best decision we've made yet other than the one to repair our relationship. I'm even more thrilled that it was her idea and that she values the investment in the relationship more than the investment in the ring.

 

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone thus far.

[Cobra_X30]

Cobra. You and I are seeing eye to eye on this at this point. We still haven't established what the line is between personal privacy and being blatantly secretive. Yes, wondering what is on that computer is something I am going to have to get used to, for the time being at least. As far as I have gathered from our talking, it is a combination of her friends secrets and probably some venting about me as geisha mentioned above. I also believe there is some conversation around her not knowing if I was ever going to marry her with her mother, which probably raised the question of whether the relationship should continue. We have established that I have planned to have her in my future as a wife, but these conversations were prior to that.

I honestly think she fears that we will have an episode of sorts because I will really analyze things and possibly make something out of nothing (I over analyze things sometimes). I don't argue or yell, but I ask a lot of questions (in all aspects of my life, not just with her). I know this frustrates her. Stonewalling, while it prevents the over analyzing, causes all sorts of other issues. She also is afraid to set a precedent for me being able to check her email "because I'm worried" even though the worry wasn't there until the dash home to grab the laptop. These are both valid concerns though as are mine. I really think the counseling is the best decision we've made yet other than the one to repair our relationship. I'm even more thrilled that it was her idea and that she values the investment in the relationship more than the investment in the ring.

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone thus far.

 

Well, she has some valid points in there. If you tend to overanalyze then, you should be very careful in how you express that to her. Perhaps you are too sensitive. I find that often comes from insecurity. Really, that's just something for you to consider.

 

In regards to "girl talk". I'm really not a big fan. I know Geisha and others play it off as just harmless ranting... but I don't think it really is. When you really think about it... if she can't say it to your face, why is it Ok to say behind your back to her mom or her friends? When you consistently badmouth someone to other people... that begins to form a negative opinion in their minds about you! What are you going to do when her entire support group thinks your a bad guy... cause all they hear is her "venting"

 

Not to say this is what's actually going on in your relationship. It's just that is my take on "girl talk."

[midwest]

I have raised the issue in the past of "if you can't say it to my face, why is it acceptable to say to someone else" and I'm not sure I pursued it completely to be honest because I can't remember the response or resolution. As someone who doesn't mention relationship issues to others nor bad mouth my SO, I don't understand it at all. Again, maybe she isn't saying bad things. Maybe her mother encouraged her to break it off and she doesn't want me to have bad feelings towards her mother. Maybe they are discussing past relationships. Maybe they are discussing a disgusting bowel movement . And yes, maybe they are bad mouthing me and scheming. There are a million what-ifs here. Another issue is determining when the girl talk has gone beyond innocent girl talk. I suspect it is very fine line. I do plan to raise this very issue in counseling because I don't fully understand it, but right now I'm not sure I should get too caught up in it seeing as there is nothing I can do about it anyway. This item won't fall off the radar but I am going to put it on the back burner with everything else until we can get professional help.

 

I would be interested in more womens' input on the girl talk issue. I can pretty much guess how the guys are going to respond based on how I feel and how the others have responded in this thread. Is it truly something that guys need not worry about or is it something that needs to be kept in check?

[Geishawhelk]

In regards to "girl talk". I'm really not a big fan. I know Geisha and others play it off as just harmless ranting... but I don't think it really is. When you really think about it... if she can't say it to your face, why is it Ok to say behind your back to her mom or her friends? When you consistently badmouth someone to other people... that begins to form a negative opinion in their minds about you! What are you going to do when her entire support group thinks your a bad guy... cause all they hear is her "venting"

 

Not to say this is what's actually going on in your relationship. It's just that is my take on "girl talk."

 

Cobra, I can fully understand your feelings, but as I said in my first post, this is where men and women, in my fairly long experience, are simply hardwired differently....And unfortunately this issue alone can expose all kinds of communication issues and misunderstandings.

I'm sorry I appear to be in the minority on this thread, with rgard to being a woman....I would love some input from other ladies too...

 

Women find it very difficult in general (emphasis there, gentlemen) to understand why men do 'bottle it up' and 'remain strong and silent'... I'm absolutely certain you don't see yourselves in this light, but that's how it comes across... Broadly speaking, this is where we see 'men's issues' occasionally stemming from. I get this an awful lot.

"He won't talk. He won't open up. He won't say what's worrying him. It's like gtting blood out of a stone...."

From our point of view, airing something that is preying on our minds, is a way of expunging a probelm that we might be able to deal with and cope with, because we can't bottle it up.

Women by and large, are not the 'strong and silent' types.

from what I have studied, this goes waaaaay back... We're talking hunter/gatherer here.. women round camp-fire, spinning, weaving, scraping skins, keeping camp warm and watching offspring...plenty opportunity discuss ribe situation. Men on hunt, mustn't disturb animals, keep silent, hunt not successful otherwise....

 

I'm rendering it mildly comical, but there is much in what I say.

 

A study on how children inter-act was carried out some time ago, and boys and girls from the ages of around 5 or six were divided and put into groups. They both had the same task. Build a castle with these bricks.

The boys accomplished the task in very little time, but hardly spoke to one another, unless it was to give/seek instructions. To the surprise of the researchers, they very quickly established amongst themselves, who would be in charge.

The girls never fully completed the task. But by the end of the experiment, they knew just about everything about each other as was possible... names, age, likes, dislikes, favourite toys, colours, tv programmes....

 

Sorry to have made this quite long, but there is a fundamental basic difference in the way men communicate with men, and the way women communicate with women. And the odd thing is trying to bridge the 'divide'.

Whereas your G/F, Midwest, probably has no trouble opening up to other women, she may see your inquisitiveness and 'need to know' as intrusive and controlling.

By your own admission you are analytical. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that what you see as a desire to just get everything straight, and defined, and well 'categorised'... she sees as intrusive, calculating and

persistent....

Thereby hang the differences.

Neither side, speaking generally, understands the workings of the Mind of the other.... and it leads to communication issues.

Again, I'm not saying that either side is wrong. I'm just explaining why I see so many couples.... 99.9 times out of 10, it's just a series of assumptions and misunderstandings.

 

Hope this helps.

[Cobra_X30]

Cobra, I can fully understand your feelings, but as I said in my first post, this is where men and women, in my fairly long experience, are simply hardwired differently....And unfortunately this issue alone can expose all kinds of communication issues and misunderstandings.

I'm sorry I appear to be in the minority on this thread, with rgard to being a woman....I would love some input from other ladies too...

 

Whereas your G/F, Midwest, probably has no trouble opening up to other women, she may see your inquisitiveness and 'need to know' as intrusive and controlling.

By your own admission you are analytical. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that what you see as a desire to just get everything straight, and defined, and well 'categorised'... she sees as intrusive, calculating and

persistent....

 

Yes! I think your spot on in regards to how Midwest's GF sees his analytical tendencies! I think it's something he may need to take some time out to really examine and understand. It's the only reason I can think of that is mildly innocent, that would cause her to react the way she did/does.

 

While I understand the reasoning and desire for that type of "girl talk", as it can provide needed outside perspectives, it needs to be handled carefully. While it's often harmless or even beneficial, over time it can "poison the well water" so to speak. There doesn't seem to be a manual for women on how to do this properly... so really it comes down to the individual. For some people verbalizing bad feelings cement them even more rather than releasing them.

 

Midwest's GF has used this improperly in the past... to the point of undermining the relationship. She used it with a member of the opposite sex, and it lead to cheating. Now she is jealously guarding her privacy... on this exact same topic. While I'm understanding... I would essentially take a zero tolerance stance on this, based on her past failures.

[Geishawhelk]

I completely agree with regard to MW's Girlfriend. I think the edges became blurred and she's overstepped the boundaries...

To use a term I'm familiar with, she didn't use her "girlie" tendencies 'skilfully or mindfully'... It all strayed into the "wrong" territory....

Coupled with the factor that we haven't had a chance to see her take or angle on it.

Again, I'm not implying bias or blame here, on MW. I'm saying that if she were able to elaborate and come clean on here, we'd have the second aspect of the equasion.....

 

Additionally, I didn't mean to imply that simply because she was resorting to a feminine foible, or this habit women have of talking to each other, that it made it automatically right, or acceptable, even.

I can completely see MW's unease at this, and I think he's absolutely right to feel the way he did.

I just think that understanding how a person's instincts work, is quite useful, and broadens the picture a bit. but it doesn't give anyone carte blanche to do it regardless, with no consideration for the consequences....

 

Freedom of Speech does not equal freedom from Responsibility....

 

Thanks, Cobra.

 

Good discussion.

I hope MW is finding it constructive!

[carhill]

Freedom of Speech does not equal freedom from Responsibility....

 

No truer words have been spoken. Great quote.

 

Thank you for your analytical insight. Even though not the OP, it's much appreciated.

[midwest]

I really am finding this useful. I'm curious, how would one enforce a zero tolerance policy on this? What "this" are we talking about? Private email, girlie talk?

[Spectre]

I can really see where this is heading, get ready for a world of heart break buddy.

 

First red flag is skank sleeps with your friend, and you seem to be making excuses for her. You were distant? So, it is called communication. Your friend told her lies about you? Well, obviously she was into this friend if she was so willing to believe things he tells her without you even knowing. Oh and she felt bad? Of course she did. He tells him she would never choose him over you, again so? This just means she doesn't wanna have a relationship with dude, just have sex with him, is that really better?

 

 

Guys who are so willing to go the extra mile and make excuses for slutty behavior are the ones that end up in un-happy relationships in the end.

 

Cheating on a guy with a friend is a big no no and girls know this, those who still choose to do it are a special kind of messed up.

 

Then these little shenanigans? Dump her. I am not a professional counselor, you do not need professional advice. Get rid of this chick, she will bring you nothing but pain, and she has zero class and zero respect for you.

 

No offense, but guys REALLY need to stop kidding themselves when it comes to chicks like this, they are not worth it, trust me.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Spectre

[Cobra_X30]

I really am finding this useful. I'm curious, how would one enforce a zero tolerance policy on this? What "this" are we talking about? Private email, girlie talk?

 

In my experience women tend to do much better when you clearly communicate your boundaries and what you consider as acceptable behavior from them... and then hold them to it! Remember, it's nearly impossible to really love someone you don't respect, and nobody respects a pushover/doormat!

 

That's really the key here. It's also what I mean by zero tolerance... that means holding her accountable to whatever relationship boundaries you feel comfortable with at this time... with the full expectation that you may be comfortable with more later on.

 

I would approach it like this.

1) I would communicate the level of openness you feel comfortable with in this relationship. If that means little to no privacy for her, so be it. Let's be honest... if she wants the relationship to work, she should be more than willing to put the effort into rebuilding trust.

 

2) This should also be coupled with the solemn promise that whatever information you may see or hear will not make you think less of her or people important to her. That you will not over-analyze and raise issues about it. Essentially that she can be emotionally trusting of you... that you won't abuse the information. That will force her to trust you... and if she does you cannot abuse that trust.

 

That is typically how I approach relationships. I try my absolute hardest to create a situation where when she has something on her mind, be it big or small, she feels safe to come to me and talk about it.

 

Oh, and I'm not going to try and tell you if this girl is worth the effort or not. You seem to think she is... and that's good enough for me. I just think you need to stand up and be a little better at letting her know where she stands with you... what you want from her... and putting your foot down when needed.