gspgal Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 I'm new to LS.org, and first let me say I really which I'd found this site 2 years ago. GAH! Long story short, I've suspected my DH of infidelity for over 2 years. When it first started, everything I found was online contact and essentially 'feelers' for an affair but no evidence of anything physical actually going on. Since the feelers were for straight-up sex and not an emotional relationship, I wouldn't really say there's an EA going on either. More that he was on the market. Anyways, I confronted him about it and got the standard denial, anger, and gaslighting (learned that word today!). Then it changed to nothing happened but "pretending" to want to have an affair was exciting and it was all to make our sex life better, and after a few hours it evolved to about how he was insecure about himself and his body, didn't know why I loved him, he was sorry & never meant to hurt me, etc. I told him how I couldn't imagine him doing this, especially since his first wife had cheated on him. It was a long night... Things were supposed to get better, and they pretty much did. Except... (you knew there was except, didn't you...) Except my spidey sense still tingled. Always, without fail, I continued to feel something wasn't right. I digital kept tabs on him, and every 3 months or so he'd send out more feelers. Just over a year ago he started emailing a woman he works with (a subordinate). He's never avoided bringing her up, and speaks of her in a friendly co-worker fashion just as he does any other male that works for him. He even emailed her on my birthday last year. Around the middle of last year he blatantly emailed asking for an affair, saying he was certain I was having one and that he is smart enough to not get caught. She responded in a truly ingenious manner: that she was flattered, especially because he's so much younger than her, but that she's not willing to risk the wrath of a woman scorned. I've never met her, but the response does garner a certain amount of respect... For those that find that point of view confusing, understand that in my perspective, she's not the one who vowed to love, honor, and cherish me, so I don't hold her at fault for the situation. Shortly after she declined his advances he started mentioning fixing this same woman up with a single friend of ours that is closer to her age. Needless to say I had a hard time playing it cool when he suggested we all go out on a double date, but I got lucky and things fell through... OK, apparently that wasn't "long story short"... I love my H, and our life together, and our time together. We joke, we laugh, we romp in the bedroom and out. In a lot of ways, our life is better than it's ever been, and if I could turn off the durn spidey sense I would. But I can't, so deep down I'm always planning for the worst, which is a cruddy way to live. I've researched divorce laws, and that's where the need for proof comes in. I live in an at fault state, and moreover I make about 50% more than my H so without proof I would almost certainly have to pay him alimony. I've priced out a few PIs and just don't have the cash right now to do it. I was (actually, still am) tempted to contact the almost OW to see if she'd help me get the proof I need. In a nutshell, I'm at a loss of what to do...
annieo Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 I'd trust your spidey senses. They are your instincts, which are real and there, thanks to nature/god, for a reason. As much as you might be afraid of finding out if you do some digging, you sound like a woman who needs to know the truth and not live a lie (possibly). There's nothing worse than waiting for something to happen. You wouldn't feel this way if there wasn't cause.
carhill Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 Any past instincts about affairs? How long have you been married? Children? I'm hearing two things. One is "We joke, we laugh, we romp in the bedroom and out. In a lot of ways, our life is better than it's ever been" and one is "Since the feelers were for straight-up sex and not an emotional relationship, I wouldn't really say there's an EA going on either. More that he was on the market." Such a duality usually doesn't appear in a healthy relationship. How do you see this? My main alarm went up from the alacrity with which he danced around the issue when it was brought up. Such "various and sundry approaches" usual result from life experience. If you have the time, you can be your own PI. You sound like you have all the tools
Author gspgal Posted March 2, 2008 Author Posted March 2, 2008 Thanks for your responses... To clarify, we've been married 2.5 years and dated 2.5 before that. No children and no desire for them; in fact, the plan is for him to get a vasectomy by summer (we discussed me getting 'fixed' instead but a vasectomy is much less expensive, invasive, etc.) Ironically, when we completely decided we didn't want kids he said his main reason was because he was too selfish to share the time we have together... And I know the instinct (gut, spidey sense, whatever) is there to be followed. I have to an extent, which is why I've been keeping tabs on him for the past 2 years (being my own PI as Carhill put it). So far, I can't find that he's ever actually, physically done anything since we've been together. So I guess it's really the duality (great word choice, BTW!) that freaks me out so much. He's sweet and kind, and does things that shows he understands me more than anyone (other than possibly my immediate family). He stands up for me and has said on multiple occasions that he's lucky to 'have' me. And yet, every now and then he sends out another feeler... He thinks (or says he thinks) I'm having an affair (which I know is a common transference tactic). He's even sent a picture of the two of us to someone and described it as him and "some girl he met in Vegas". How can someone treat you so well when you're there (and even when you're not there), yet think so poorly of you when it's just him and his computer? Or at least act like they think it... He doesn't say or act like this in front of anyone we know (our friends talk too much, so I'd hear about it if he did), it's just in these random emails.
carhill Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 Another possibility is compartmentalization without conscience. Not evil, but sometimes an unconscious coping skill men have, a remnant from when they had to go out and kill to defend the tribe and family and then go home and love their mate and offspring. This phenomena, which some call "sides", can explain a lot of male behavior. There's a really funny video on YouTube about men's "boxes". Google "men's brains youtube" for a good laugh.... IMO, I would take your husband's "projection" of affairs upon you seriously. I can say with certainty that such a thought has never passed my lips, much less entered my mind, , no matter how bad things between my wife and I have become. That's just disrespectful... If I had suspicions, I would, as you've done, gather evidence and proceed in a calm manner even if the emotions felt like a kick in my stomach. Given the length of the "investigation" and the behaviors related here, I would advise continued vigilance and attempts to better communicate your concerns, as warranted. A real telling sign will be whether the upcoming "snip" goes off as planned or "something comes up" and it's delayed. Something is going on here.....
Author gspgal Posted March 2, 2008 Author Posted March 2, 2008 IMO, I would take your husband's "projection" of affairs upon you seriously. I can say with certainty that such a thought has never passed my lips, much less entered my mind, , no matter how bad things between my wife and I have become. That's just disrespectful... I was completely taken aback, without doubt. Dumbfounded and crushed are actually better words. When I first found out about all this 2 years ago I confronted him then and he threw that one at me: "I came home months ago and this piece of paper was out of place in the bedroom and so and so had been there earlier, so I just started thinking...". Not only was the accusation and situation preposterous, but even if I were single the so and so in question is just so utterly unappealing to me there aren't words to describe it. He's never made such an accusation to me since, but the fact that he stated such a thing in the email last summer literally knocked the wind out of me. The difficult part is that I'm fairly certain I know who the implied OM is: my boss who has also been a friend of ours for several years. In fact, he and H are at a concert right now; we all had dinner together tonight before-hand. Granted, this is only an assumption on my part, but it has definitely made me change the way I interact with my boss (just to make sure there isn't anything that could be misconstrued). Given the length of the "investigation" and the behaviors related here, I would advise continued vigilance and attempts to better communicate your concerns, as warranted. A real telling sign will be whether the upcoming "snip" goes off as planned or "something comes up" and it's delayed. Something is going on here..... I agree, there's definitely something going on but I just can't figure out what yet. As for the snip: I'm pretty sure it'll happen, as he mentions just how much he hates condoms each and every time we use one. But then there's that tiny little voice in the mean and scared part of my brain that wonders: could he possibly be so selfish and shortsighted as to have an affair post-vasectomy and not wear a condom?
sally4sara Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 The way you think about this is so conflicted. I'm sorry you're in this situation. At one hand you know you need proof to not pay fraudulent alimony. So it seems you want to find it. Are you intending to ask the coworker to bite the bait to see if he would?!?! But that "fantasy" attempt would be the one that clinched the deal to me. His other attempts were with random people he would've had to put effort into to see through. IF she had accepted his advance, it wouldn't have taken much extra or obvious effort to consumate. It all hung on her answer and she said no so you feel stuck. If your state was a no fault state what would you do?
carhill Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 But then there's that tiny little voice in the mean and scared part of my brain that wonders: could he possibly be so selfish and shortsighted as to have an affair post-vasectomy and not wear a condom? Interesting hypothesis, and goes to trust. There's a reason you are considering such scenarios. It might be within you or it might be your unconscious impressions of your relationship. Have you had past experiences with infidelity, either as a child or adult? Not a psychologist here, but I do pay one handsomely regularly
Mr. Lucky Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 I love my H, and our life together, and our time together. We joke, we laugh, we romp in the bedroom and out. In a lot of ways, our life is better than it's ever been, and if I could turn off the durn spidey sense I would. But I can't, so deep down I'm always planning for the worst, which is a cruddy way to live. I've researched divorce laws, and that's where the need for proof comes in. I live in an at fault state, and moreover I make about 50% more than my H so without proof I would almost certainly have to pay him alimony. I've priced out a few PIs and just don't have the cash right now to do it. I was (actually, still am) tempted to contact the almost OW to see if she'd help me get the proof I need. In a nutshell, I'm at a loss of what to do... You have two separate and distinct issues: 1). The quality of your marriage - Pretty obvious that there are huge issues here. Regardless of any denial, your H is either planning to or has already cheated. That seems pretty clear. 2) The quality of a possible divorce - You should at least see a lawyer to understand the parameters involved. An attorney may advise you that the emails you have - especially the one soliciting the coworker - are enough to proceed. Up to you where to go from here. Personally, knowing what you know, I wouldn't sit around waiting for the other shoe to fall... Mr. Lucky
RecordProducer Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 I don't think it matters whether he succeeded in finding a victim for his cheating plans. He offered himself to this woman which is absolutely the same as cheating. It's like planning murder, buying a gun, and shooting someone six times, but missing. He's still a murderer, right? Had the lady accepted his offer, he would've had a full blown affair. Fixing her up with his friend after trying to screw her? What is he, a pimp? This is not like the regular fixing up where you want to hook your best friend up with this nice girl. I would assume they fix each other up with girls available for sexual encounters. Your husband is a dog. Stop guessing and snooping, he already betrayed you. I really feel for you. Regarding divorce, you should talk to an attorney instead of making uneducated guesses - for your own sake. I don't see why you would have to pay him alimony if he works, just because you make more than he does. You mentioned that he has people who work FOR him, which means he has a manager's position or something similar. He did cheat by offering an affair to this woman and you could use it at court. You don't necessarily need hard evidence, your word against his is also strong. Talk to a good divorce lawyer!
norajane Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 I wouldn't recommend going to the OW and asking her for anything. Not while you are still in investigation mode...your husband may find out you talked with her, and then he'll cover his tracks better. I agree with RP. Talk to a lawyer, and take your printouts of the emails with you. If you've only been married 2 years, I doubt you'll be hit with a lifetime of alimony payments just because you make more than he does!!
carhill Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 The OP has stated she doesn't have the cash for a PI. Anyone want to hazard a guess what the retainer is for a divorce attorney in an "at fault" state?
OWoman Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 I don't think it matters whether he succeeded in finding a victim for his cheating plans. He offered himself to this woman which is absolutely the same as cheating. It's like planning murder, buying a gun, and shooting someone six times, but missing. He's still a murderer, right? Not legally, no - a court would find him guilty of attempted murder, not murder. Still guilty, but a lesser crime with a lesser sentence.
norajane Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 The OP has stated she doesn't have the cash for a PI. Anyone want to hazard a guess what the retainer is for a divorce attorney in an "at fault" state? Divorce is expensive and she'll need the attorney anyway. If that's her plan, though, better to save her pennies for an attorney who can tell her she doesn't need to hire a PI because the proof she has is enough and it's not going to cost her alimony to divorce him at 2.5 years, although it may cost her alimony at 3 years or 5 years. Do lawyers charge for the initial consultation? Certainly not a retainer at that time.
whichwayisup Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 What if you can borrow the money from family? Or get a bank loan?
BetrayedMM Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 (edited) Free initial consultation, $1200.00 general retainer, further consultation fees, payment plan negotiable from that point. Shop around, they vary in price, approach, and cynicism. Edited March 2, 2008 by BetrayedMM
Author gspgal Posted March 3, 2008 Author Posted March 3, 2008 Thanks for your responses, everyone. I'm going to try to address the points raised as best I can... He and the friend definitely do not find women for one another: I've known the friend longer than my husband and can say with 100% certainty he would not be involved in such a thing. And yes, I know it's strange that I can say that about someone who isn't my husband and not be able to say it about my husband... I'm not sure what I would do if this was a no fault state. I think, though, that I might still want some sort of real proof. I think I might need it mentally, to know I made the right decision rather than wondering "what if" down the road when things get hard. As for the legal stuff: my state has it's entire legal code online, and the divorce section is pretty straightforward. Alimony becomes an issue after 4 yers of marriage. The spouse who has no income or who makes less is eligble for alimony unless he or she is found at fault. If there were only a dollar or two difference in hour salaries per year I wouldn't really be cocerned about it, but making 40-50% more per year makes it a real concern IMO. And to the poster who brought this up: yes, he is in a managerial position and doesn't make peanuts, but his salary is still considerably less than mine and mathematically cannot cover the costs of his monthly bills and living quarters if we were separated. Carhill asked if I'd had any personal experience with infidelity. A boyfriend in college cheated on me, but nothing else: no family history that I knew about at the time or found about after the fact. I was, however, a psychology major with a focus on adult abnormal behaviour, which puts me in the weird position of sitting outside myself and analyzing the situation. My only real experience with the 'at fault' divorce laws in this state are, ironically, what I've heard from friends and family about H's first marriage and divorce. She cheated on him and he sought an at fault divorce. It cost him several thousand dollars in attornies fees (part of what led to his current financial position), and someone who'd seen the wife and OM very literally 'together' had to testify in court about the acts he'd seen. I'm sure the weight of proof might vary from judge to judge, but I'm not sure that printed emails (which I do of course have) will cut it. The advice to speak with an attorney to find out for sure is, of course, something to consider. Money-wise, I'm saving cash that could be used for either a PI or attorney if need be. I'm not willing to borrow money from friends or family for this because his relationship with them all is very good: should this prove to be 'nothing', I don't want that hanging over how they see him. Yes, I know some of you will question my willingness to protect his relationship with my friends and family, however that's not a stance I'm willing to change right now. And by 'nothing', I mean I find out he's never physically done anything outside of our marriage. So far as I've seen over the past 2 years, the pattern is for him to approach women electronically with no real intention of following through physcially. Since the actions in question don't fit into a traditional EA or PA, I'm still on a very painful fence regarding how I personally feel about them, divorce laws and burden of proof aside. It's not just that I'm comfortable in my marriage: I truly enjoy it (well, all aspects of it other than this). I read someone's comment in another thread here that what someone wants and what they're willing to live with can be very different things. Obviously I don't want a husband who gets his ego stroked by approaching other women with no intention of following through. The question is whether or not I'm willing to live with it...
norajane Posted March 3, 2008 Posted March 3, 2008 Alimony becomes an issue after 4 yers of marriage. Then you'd best figure out what you want to do before then, while you can still divorce without alimony being a consideration. So far as I've seen over the past 2 years, the pattern is for him to approach women electronically with no real intention of following through physcially. I don't know what leads you to that conclusion. Had the woman at work been interested, he would have had sex with her. He offered, she refused - that's the only reason they didn't have sex. And frankly, that you have even had to monitor this for the past two years should tell you all you need to know!
Owl Posted March 3, 2008 Posted March 3, 2008 OK, normally I'm all about getting the "proof". But I don't think you need it, in this case. You've suspected something for 2 of the 2.5 years that you've been married. That's enough "proof" right there to tell me that SOMETHING is wrong, whatever it is. I'd seriously suggest you go for the D, as others have recommended. If you're in a no fault state, you can get a "divorce kit" online and file a lot of the paperwork yourself, saving thousands by not having a lawyer do all that footwork that you can manage on your own. WHY STAY AND KEEP THIS UP??? His asking someone to have an affair with him is ENOUGH proof for anyone.
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