Kamille Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 I have two tidbits of contrary relationship wisdom running through my head: Relationships are about compromise. Don't go into a relationship expecting your partner to change. So where's the boundary between trying to find a compromise and trying to change somebody?
xpaperxcutx Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 I have two tidbits of contrary relationship wisdom running through my head: Relationships are about compromise. Don't go into a relationship expecting your partner to change. So where's the boundary between trying to find a compromise and trying to change somebody? Good question. In response, I have to say that boundaries would not come into play if your SO has for his part come to the realization that he's WILLING to change for the sake of the relationship.You can voice your concerns, but for someone to fully and compliantly change themselves they have first to see that what they're fully contributing to the relationship does warrant some effort on their part for actual change.
Pyro Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 IMO, there is a fine line between compromising with your SO and changing for your SO. I would like to explain the difference but I guarantee that someone will come along and explain it 10 times better than me, so I will wait for them.
Star Gazer Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 What would you say to me if I was trying to change my ex, Kam?
Author Kamille Posted February 29, 2008 Author Posted February 29, 2008 What would you say to me if I was trying to change my ex, Kam? Ooh I know the answer to this one! He can only change if he wants too? My problem is that ex-bf is asking for a chance to prove that he can change. I guess for me it's also a question of knowing how to set my boundaries and when to know when to call it quits.
Star Gazer Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 Ooh I know the answer to this one! He can only change if he wants too? My problem is that ex-bf is asking for a chance to prove that he can change. First, I don't think you'd ever respect a man who would change for YOU. If he changed because he too cared about his physical well-being, sure. But if he changes (which I don't think he will), it will be for you, and only you. You have different values on this matter. As such, over time he will grow resentful, and you will question his character as well. Secondly, YOU cannot change an alcoholic. His drinking problem has nothing to do with YOU or your relationship. It's all on him. I think you need to attend some Alanon meetings and spend a considerable amount of time apart before you really even consider getting back together.
Trialbyfire Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 Changing yourself for the relationship or another person, is a temporary fix. Wanting desperately to change yourself, for the good of you, tends to stick. Changing and compromising are two different things. Example: Change: I hated peas as a child. I love peas now because they're so good for me. Compromise: While I'm not fond of peas, if you make them, I'll eat them. Changing for someone else: The peas you made are delicious. (Internal dialogue...Ick, blech, vomit, I hate it when you cook.)
carhill Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 Is it possible to change somebody? IMO, no, for adults. For a forming brain, it is possible to influence their environment and socialization sufficiently to "change" their intrinsic personality. As an example, if I make an effort to bring my wife coffee in bed every morning, has she "trained" me or "changed" my usual morning behavior? She'd likely say "yes". In reality, it is an act I perform because I want to. I've noted, of late, since we're in MC and I haven't felt as loved, I don't do it as often as I used to. When she's gone on trips, I rarely even drink coffee, similar to when I was single. Perhaps a poor example, but I believe basic personality traits (and our resultant characteristics) in an adult are essentially "fixed". We can cognitively modify a behavior by choice to suit a circumstance (for whatever reason), but the underlying characteristic is still there.
Star Gazer Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 Your BF "changing" will look like this: He'll be dead sober when you're physically together, but he will be grouchy and irritable. If you get your way about anything, the movie selection, the color of the sheets, anything, he will remind you of what he "did for you." Eventually, you will find Scotch bottles in his underwear drawer, trunk of the car, and accidentally gag when you take a gulp of that "apple juice" in the fridge.
Tony T Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 People often change when they are in desperate situations, such as on the brink of a break-up. However, they usually regret it and resent it. I didn't see where the OP's problem related to alcohol but if that be the case you've got a very serious issue on your hands and one that's not likely to change very rapidly. For the most part, small changes can take place and stick. Major changes rarely happen quickly unless there's a life threatening issue involved.
Author Kamille Posted February 29, 2008 Author Posted February 29, 2008 Here's a thread where the role alcohol plays in my lovelife right now is discussed: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=145441 I am open to keeping this more of a general discussion then a discussion related to my perticular issue.
Star Gazer Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 I am open to keeping this more of a general discussion then a discussion related to my perticular issue. Sorry. I guess I just knew what you were getting at. But it still stands. They have to change for themselves by themselves. TBF provides a great example.
Author Kamille Posted February 29, 2008 Author Posted February 29, 2008 Sorry. I guess I just knew what you were getting at. But it still stands. They have to change for themselves by themselves. TBF provides a great example. No worries . You obviously knew where my question was coming from - and yes I totally agree with TBF's example (which made me smile) and also agree with you that deep down I don't want him to change for me. I want him to want to change. I guess that makes us incompatible, but a part of me still believe he and I aren't over. Oh look, I made this thread about my perticular issue after all .
Pyro Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 Changing yourself for the relationship or another person, is a temporary fix. Wanting desperately to change yourself, for the good of you, tends to stick. Changing and compromising are two different things. Example: Change: I hated peas as a child. I love peas now because they're so good for me. Compromise: While I'm not fond of peas, if you make them, I'll eat them. Changing for someone else: The peas you made are delicious. (Internal dialogue...Ick, blech, vomit, I hate it when you cook.) People often change when they are in desperate situations, such as on the brink of a break-up. However, they usually regret it and resent it. I didn't see where the OP's problem related to alcohol but if that be the case you've got a very serious issue on your hands and one that's not likely to change very rapidly. For the most part, small changes can take place and stick. Major changes rarely happen quickly unless there's a life threatening issue involved. This is what I was waiting for.
sedona Posted February 29, 2008 Posted February 29, 2008 If we're talking about adults only, then I believe that there is only one person you can change, even though it's really hard to do. Yourself. No one else.
Storyrider Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 Hi Kamille. I just caught up with your other thread. I didn't realize you two had broken up. Hope you're doing alright and not too sad. Maybe this is something that needed to happen so he could see how serious you are about it.
White Flower Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 IMO, no, for adults. For a forming brain, it is possible to influence their environment and socialization sufficiently to "change" their intrinsic personality. As an example, if I make an effort to bring my wife coffee in bed every morning, has she "trained" me or "changed" my usual morning behavior? She'd likely say "yes". In reality, it is an act I perform because I want to. I've noted, of late, since we're in MC and I haven't felt as loved, I don't do it as often as I used to. When she's gone on trips, I rarely even drink coffee, similar to when I was single. Perhaps a poor example, but I believe basic personality traits (and our resultant characteristics) in an adult are essentially "fixed". We can cognitively modify a behavior by choice to suit a circumstance (for whatever reason), but the underlying characteristic is still there. [/b] I like this post because it demonstrates that your compromise is a choice that you make to please your wife; that you want to please your wife. You didn't change anything about your personality or who you are in order to please her. You do it because you care. If it's true about the OP's B/F having a drinking problem then she is asking for a change that will improve his life (and hers by default) yet this is something he can only do on his own when he is willing and ready. Oh, how many drinkers, smokers, and gamblers I have seen quit only to return to it with a vengeance when given an ultimatum to do so.
marlena Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 (edited) Kamille, No, adults do not change. Not radically at any rate. What you see is what you get. Adults are not children in an undergoing process of socialization and character formation. They are not malleable like children and so any efforts to exert any type of influence that will effect major changes is usually futile. Adults are people with a fully-formulated and distinctive identity. Things become even more complicated when you are dealing with people with a strong personality. They are not likely to appreciate or understand anyone's efforts to change them. They will see it as controlling behaviour. Ergo you have the, "you are trying to change me and can not accept me the way I am" line. Even if they do make some adjustments, they are usually temporary. The pressure their partner puts on them to effect changes in their life-style,philosophy,perceptions often leads to resentment that builds up and eventually corrodes the relationship. And in my opinion, they are right. As adults we are free to live our lives as we wish. Even if the choices we make are self-destructive, it is, after all, our prerogative to self-destruct if we so wish. The person who chooses to go along with this type of person is responsible for his own bad choices. Wanting to change someone is a wrong premise to base a long-term relationship on. It will never happen. When faced with choosing a life partner, we, ourselves, have to decide what we can tolerate in another and what we can not, where we can compromise and where compromising would be self-destructive. Compromising does not equate to settling nor is it fatalistically accepting a bad situation. It is fairly easy to compromise where little things are concerned but agreeing to be someone we are not just to meet the expectations of another is not compromising. It is self-effacing. People tell us who they are right from the start. Your boyfriend is telling you who he is and how he likes to live his life. If his life-style choices come into direct oppostion with your own, then, you are not compatible. Once you recognize this, then, you have to make a choice whether to leave or stay. And accept the consequences either way. I often think that if we all walked away, however hard, from people that we know right from the start are not right for us, the percentage of unhappy marriages and relationships would decline drastically and so would divorce of course. Most of us don't listen to that inner voice - myself included - but I am working on it. Kamille, I know you will soon find your own answers. Edited March 1, 2008 by marlena
Author Kamille Posted March 1, 2008 Author Posted March 1, 2008 The pressure their partner puts on them to effect changes in their life-style,philosophy,perceptions often leads to resentment that builds up and eventually corrodes the relationship. And in my opinion, they are right. As adults we are free to live our lives as we wish. Even if the choices we make are self-destructive, it is, after all, our prerogative to self-destruct if we so wish. The person who chooses to go along with this type of person is responsible for his own bad choices. You're so right and I can't believe that the pain and anger I felt made me lose perspective of that. I know this. Ex-bf and I always managed to find a middle ground on everything else (even the smoking inside thing) that for some reason I thought asking him to change his drinking was just another compromise, kind of like - oh could you rince your bowl of cereal after breakfast please? It would make me happy that you didn't drink every night, so could you do it please? Wanting to change someone is a wrong premise to base a long-term relationship on. It will never happen. When faced with choosing a life partner, we, ourselves, have to decide what we can tolerate in another and what we can not, where we can compromise and where compromising would be self-destructive. Compromising does not equate to settling nor is it fatalistically accepting a bad situation. It is fairly easy to compromise where little things are concerned but agreeing to be someone we are not just to meet the expectations of another is not compromising. It is self-effacing. People tell us who they are right from the start. Your boyfriend is telling you who he is and how he likes to live his life. If his life-style choices come into direct oppostion with your own, then, you are not compatible. Once you recognize this, then, you have to make a choice whether to leave or stay. And accept the consequences either way. I don'y know yet what I will chose to do and what he will decide either. I went to my first Al Anon meeting yesterday and today I feel much calmer. I no longer feel as powerless as I did before and I think this will help me think clearly about the situation. I no longer feel like it's just a matter of all or nothing, can I accept it or not? Now it's more like, if I were to stay I know I would have support to help me learn to deal/accept the consequences of my choice. I often think that if we all walked away, however hard, from people that we know right from the start are not right for us, the percentage of unhappy marriages and relationships would decline drastically and so would divorce of course. Most of us don't listen to that inner voice - myself included - but I am working on it. I have a history of walking away and of putting conditions on love. I tend to be somewhat uncompromising. I used to firmly believe that it was the only way to be happy in relationships, but right now I feel like I have a lot to learn about acceptance and love. The meeting made me realize not only why I struggled in my relationship with ex, but why I struggle in my relationship with my mom. I realized that when someone cause me anguish, I look at what they could change about themselves instead of looking at what I could change within myself. Al anon was a very humbling experience. Kamille, I know you will soon find your own answers. Thanks Marlena. The last few days have been so emotionnally charged, have made me reflect on so many things about love and myself, that right now I even feel thankful for how things unfolded. I have a lot to learn about myself still.
Trialbyfire Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 I don'y know yet what I will chose to do and what he will decide either. I went to my first Al Anon meeting yesterday and today I feel much calmer. I no longer feel as powerless as I did before and I think this will help me think clearly about the situation. I no longer feel like it's just a matter of all or nothing, can I accept it or not? Now it's more like, if I were to stay I know I would have support to help me learn to deal/accept the consequences of my choice. I have a history of walking away and of putting conditions on love. I tend to be somewhat uncompromising. I used to firmly believe that it was the only way to be happy in relationships, but right now I feel like I have a lot to learn about acceptance and love. The meeting made me realize not only why I struggled in my relationship with ex, but why I struggle in my relationship with my mom. I realized that when someone cause me anguish, I look at what they could change about themselves instead of looking at what I could change within myself. Al anon was a very humbling experience. Now you know why everyone stressed for you to attend al-anon. It's about taking control back into your life but not by controlling your environment but by controlling yourself. Well done for taking that first step!
Storyrider Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 Kamille, No, adults do not change. Not radically at any rate. What you see is what you get. Adults are not children in an undergoing process of socialization and character formation. They are not malleable like children and so any efforts to exert any type of influence that will effect major changes is usually futile. Adults are people with a fully-formulated and distinctive identity. Things become even more complicated when you are dealing with people with a strong personality. They are not likely to appreciate or understand anyone's efforts to change them. They will see it as controlling behaviour. Ergo you have the, "you are trying to change me and can not accept me the way I am" line. Even if they do make some adjustments, they are usually temporary. The pressure their partner puts on them to effect changes in their life-style,philosophy,perceptions often leads to resentment that builds up and eventually corrodes the relationship. And in my opinion, they are right. As adults we are free to live our lives as we wish. Even if the choices we make are self-destructive, it is, after all, our prerogative to self-destruct if we so wish. The person who chooses to go along with this type of person is responsible for his own bad choices. Wanting to change someone is a wrong premise to base a long-term relationship on. It will never happen. When faced with choosing a life partner, we, ourselves, have to decide what we can tolerate in another and what we can not, where we can compromise and where compromising would be self-destructive. Compromising does not equate to settling nor is it fatalistically accepting a bad situation. It is fairly easy to compromise where little things are concerned but agreeing to be someone we are not just to meet the expectations of another is not compromising. It is self-effacing. People tell us who they are right from the start. Your boyfriend is telling you who he is and how he likes to live his life. If his life-style choices come into direct oppostion with your own, then, you are not compatible. Once you recognize this, then, you have to make a choice whether to leave or stay. And accept the consequences either way. I often think that if we all walked away, however hard, from people that we know right from the start are not right for us, the percentage of unhappy marriages and relationships would decline drastically and so would divorce of course. Most of us don't listen to that inner voice - myself included - but I am working on it. Kamille, I know you will soon find your own answers. Truly excellent post, Marlena. I agree with nearly everything you wrote here. I don't blame Kamille one bit for her own feelings about her guy's drinking/smoking. At the same time, when one person is disapproving and the other feels in the wrong, the dynamic in a relationship becomes unsexy really quickly for both parties. I wonder about the concept of letting another person self-destruct...how does one draw the line between caring about a loved-one's well-being versus interfering? Would it be different if when Kamille met him he was not a drinker, and then ten years into a marriage he developed a drinking problem? What about when you can see the other person is unhappy, but they don't seem to have the strength or will-power to make the change necessary? These are open questions for me, not things I feel I've figured out myself.
carhill Posted March 1, 2008 Posted March 1, 2008 What about when you can see the other person is unhappy, but they don't seem to have the strength or will-power to make the change necessary? IMO, provide a supportive environment within one's own comfort zone and encourage them when moments of clarity present. A person can/will "change" how their fundamental characteristics present to the world with sufficient desire. The above presumes no significant untreated mental illness or defect. I've seen a number of instances of this in our MC. My personality characteristics remain essentially static but I am presenting them to the world in a different way, IMO a way which is more supportive and encouraging and less condescending. Same person, different method. An interesting side effect is that I feel better too.
sb129 Posted March 2, 2008 Posted March 2, 2008 Kamille, I know I am a bit late, but I wanted to say sorry to hear about the breakup. I hope you are OK. IMO, if there are damaging habits that bother someone in a R, the other party should examine themselves to see if they are open to changing a little bit- I agree with carhill, that compromise and change to a certain extent is possible, and often necessary in a LTR, esp if you love somebody. However, marlena made some excellent points about expecting someone to be someone they are not, and to what level we are prepared to tolerate some things- in your case the balance was definitely shifted. WB and I have both had to make little adjustments to be able to live together in harmony- he has all but given up smoking (he wanted to anyway, I think my disapproval was the final straw that pushed him towards doing it) I have had to become a little more tolerant of mess giving we live in a cluttered shoebox, and he has had to become a little tidier... etc etc. But as Marlena pointed out these are little things that we were both prepared to work on- not large lifestyle changes. Maybe your split will help your BF examine himself more carefully and maybe he will conclude that he wants to change- maybe it won't. Going to alanon meetings sounds like its a good idea for you- if only to understand the situation a little better. I feel like I am rambling now and not really contributing anything positive to your thread, but I am sad for you, and am thinking of you. I also understand completely why you did what you did, and think that you did the right thing, however painful it may be.
Florida Posted March 5, 2008 Posted March 5, 2008 I have two tidbits of contrary relationship wisdom running through my head: Relationships are about compromise. Don't go into a relationship expecting your partner to change. So where's the boundary between trying to find a compromise and trying to change somebody? Marlena's advice was so -OMG took my breath away. But, I think the opposite, even though I hear so much truth in that. How can one not immediately see what is lacking/needs to be fixed in their SO and want to change it? Do we not all deem ourselves as the arbiters of taste? Oh, if only he was (fill in the blank) he would be perfect. I think if one partner is doing something deemed harmful by the other party-they have to change the offending way or part ways. If someone loves another, they will change. Only one's personality is not changeable, for example, I don't think someone can change being stubborn, or vacillating, or hot headed, or being impatient. But the behaviors can be changed. Such as lateness, sloppiness, etc. Behavior is very changeable, if they really want to please. I think people meet eachother with the express purrpose of seeking out change within themselves. Hopefully for the better.
Storyrider Posted March 5, 2008 Posted March 5, 2008 Behavior is very changeable, if they really want to please. I think people meet eachother with the express purrpose of seeking out change within themselves. Hopefully for the better. I don't know....I don't know....I really don't. I used to believe this. I used to think, if your spouse can't be honest and tell you what's wrong with you, no one can. I used to think you've found "the one" when you feel like your best self with that person. Now I'm not sure. At what price? At the price of resentment and pushing/pulling all the time? And disappointment? And unfulfilled expectations? I've gotta say, if that person wanted to change, truly wanted to change, they would have already done so, before they met you. Think of all the pain we could let go of, if we let go of the idea of changing our SO.
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