showupbutbroken Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 I keep telling myself that. It wasn't real if we never went on a real date, had a real relationship, etc. I think it is important to remember during the intial NC path to eventual complete disappearance from our lives. It was never ours (OW's) to lose.
Geishawhelk Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 Bingo. You keep telling yourself.... Are you convinced? Because of course, you are absolutely right.
nellstar Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 I keep telling myself that. It wasn't real if we never went on a real date, had a real relationship, etc. I think it is important to remember during the intial NC path to eventual complete disappearance from our lives. It was never ours (OW's) to lose. If a couple had a real date... that means it will lead to a real relationship? Have you not had any real conversations with him? Don't you both share anything in that way? Is it just a PA? I don't think it takes a real date.. or a few of them to make it a real thing between two people. It takes so much more than that... even if you're seeing a MM or SG.
mistie03 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 The guy I just broke up with is single, but I feel the same way. I can't lose something that I never had fits in this case, too. I invited him into my life, but her never let me into his. I might as well have been dating a MM.
nadiaj2727 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 I keep telling myself that. It wasn't real if we never went on a real date, had a real relationship, etc. I think it is important to remember during the intial NC path to eventual complete disappearance from our lives. It was never ours (OW's) to lose. How true. Sometimes I get really sad when I think that *most* OW are only "side benefits" to MM, and *most* MM are the OW's whole world. We think about them, love them, want to be with them whenever we can and wait for the time when we can be with them the "right" way... all while they are still married and still fence-sitting etc. You sound strong, in recognizing that he was never truly yours. This is hard to admit. Once I started thinking about and trying to break up with xMM, I started to think more and more about his wife. SHE was the one he had taken vows with, committed his life to, promised to be there for... and here I was feeling sad about not being to "have" him. What was wrong with me??!! After I went NC I gained a lot more perspective and was able to realize that how I was thinking as an OW was really, really skewed. It sounds like you are doing some tough thinking and introspection. I wish you lots of strength and wisdom!!! I know it's a tough time, but keep telling yourself these true things you've discovered!
Aoife Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Do you think NC is always necessary?? I really want to keep my MM in my life - even as pals, someway down the line!!!
nadiaj2727 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Do you think NC is always necessary?? I really want to keep my MM in my life - even as pals, someway down the line!!! Aoife, I'm not sure if you were asking this question to me or to someone else. So of course I will answer it LOL. In my experience, NO, you can't just be "pals", because the same feelings that ignited the affair will still be there, and eventually they will start up again. I know you might not believe that now, but I guarantee you, it will happen. At a weak moment or when you have fond memories of him or when you want to escape from your real life, you will be back with MM and in the same boat you're in now. I think that an affair is a repetitive and addictive and destructive cycle that like a drug can only be quit FOR GOOD and by going cold turkey -- there is no "in between" stage like "friends" -- that is like saying, I'm going to have this crack pipe beside my bed so I can look at it and remember it and talk to it now and then, but I won't ever smoke it again. It's like, "yeah right," even with the best intentions, it will still be too much of a temptation to resist in a weak moment. Plus, when MM says "can we still be friends?" what he really means is "can we still sleep together some time?" No MM really wants to be just "pals" with someone he used to have an affair with... what he really wants is an affair, but he will settle for what he can get in the meantime and HOPE to have the affair start back up. Plus, how are you going to get over MM if he is still lingering in your thoughts, conversations, daily life as a "friend"? You will always feel that MM has control over your life and you will always be "waiting" on him in some way, and tied to him in some way, until *you* gain complete control over the situation by going NC. It will make you feel stronger and in control, no longer on his "string." Going NC is hard at first but then it feels really really good, strong and peaceful. You won't have any more ups and downs and falling into passion and then depression, etc... believe me, that can still be there if you are still "pals" just like it was there when you were in the affair. So by going NC you are cutting out the drama and the craziness that came with the affir. You are living your own life, for you, without MM, and you will start to feel like "Wow, I can do this, I am in charge of my own life and no longer agonizing over what's going to happen or waiting for MM to do something. And it feels really, really good!" I believe (and I have learned this from my own experience) that the only way to stop being in an affair is to make a clean break, realize that the situation is just not right for you, and move on from it, because what's the point of being "pals" with a married man anyway? My xMM really wanted to be friends; he claimed I was his best friend and I began to think, "well, if that's true (you start to question whether ANYTHING's true after thinking about going NC), then that is really messed up thinking... he is married, his wife should be his best friend. What kind of a married guy is 'best friends' with a woman a lot younger than him that he was having an affair with but didn't want to get out of his marriage enough to be with?" I gained a *lot* of new perspective after going NC and I realized he was still trying to cake-eat me!! No fair buddy. I didn't want him to depend on me for ANYTHING (even friendship... which to him equaled a shoulder to cry on, ego stroking from having a young attractive woman around as his "friend", and the chance for sex in the future, if he caught me in a weak moment) if he couldn't give me EVERYTHING I deserved, which included an open, public, committed relationship. Even if I was his "best friend", I would still be his dirty little secret, because he wasn't about to reveal to the world including his wife that I was really his best friend. And that is just sad. You don't want to date OR be friends with someone who can't be PROUD of your relationship to the rest of the world. I think if you are his "pal" you are still giving him something he doesn't deserve -- how would his wife feel about him being "friends" with you, and how will you feel when you realize it is all still about HIM trying to have the best of both worlds, and not about you being able to move on from that situation? So there is my very firm opinion about NC. But it is easier to preach it now than it was to practice it at first. I was very, very weak and gave up NC at points until I *finally* realized it was the only thing that would really "set me free", so to speak, of this self-destructive relationship. I think of my relationship with xMM as a fire... I was completely attracted to it and further ignited it by fueling it, and then it destroyed me, it burned me down!!! And time after time I was tempted by the same damn fire, even as a burn victim. I kept getting dangerously close to playing with it all over again. It takes a long time of feeling your hair being singed by those flames to finally take a step back and say, "what am I doing standing so close to this damn fire." To me, NC = pouring water on that fire and building a new little garden over where it used to be, and tending to that garden to make sure it stays pretty and doesn't become a place where any new fires could ignite. I can't do all of that and have ANY contact with MM/ the fire, because the two are opposites. I don't know if that makes any sense LOL but that is the way I think of it in my little world.
Owl Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 It depends on who you think its necessary for. Once you've crossed that line, your friendship is over and your "lover" relationship has replaced it. Going back to "just friends" after that is pretty much impossible. Not to mention...if his wife finds out about the two of you...EVER...what do you think the repercussions are going to be? Do you think that she could EVER trust that 'friendship'? Not to mention...its very likely that you'll continue to pine for having him as more than just friends...it'll always hurt when he's right there in front of you. What you want is standard script...he probably feels the same way about you. But its almost never workable in reality.
EllaDerSpin Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 What you have probably lost is the illusion, but, dont underestimate how shattering that can be.
Aoife Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Nadia - thank you soo much...I am getting more clarity here today than I have over the past three years of my 'relationship'. My MM described me as his addiction - and if I'm honest, he is mine. I just hoped so much we could be friends because the thought of not having him in my life is too much to contemplate. Yet....I have incredible highs and lows being in the middle of this!! I have to keep secrets from my family and friends, I drop everything to see him and play a waiting game day in, day out, getting a text from him can make my day and if I don't it can wreck it make me cry myself to sleep...I drink too much to numb the loneliness when I'm spending yet another night alone.......I don't know where my mind is sometimes, that this is preferable to living an independent, self-sufficient life which I long for in many ways, but which also scares me to death!! Owl - yes I concur, I think I probably would pine for him and be stupid enough to secretly wait for him forever if he was there in my life. I just can't imagine not having him in some small way now that I've found him! How pathetic am I?? Ella, shattering is the right word!!!
whichwayisup Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Do you think NC is always necessary?? I really want to keep my MM in my life - even as pals, someway down the line!!! All that does is keep your feelings alive and gives you false hope. Once an A is over, you cannot be 'friends.' What is the point?
Aoife Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 I'd miss him. I would love to transfer my feelings to another person one day, and my MM would just be a friend I would think the world of and have a history with but that's it. History!!
whichwayisup Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 You can't "Transfer" your feelings for someone onto someone new. You have to get over MM, deal with the sadness, grief, loss etc, THEN your heart will be able to open up to someone else. Transferring feelings isn't a healthy thing to do. You have an affair, fun and fantasy history with him - Not one that his wife has with him. You don't know his friends, family, kids, inlaws, neighbours - You aren't included in big decisions, $$ issues, house issues, his family issues. You can't compare what he has with his wife with what you share in an affair because you two focus on making eachother 'feel good'. It's a selfish friendship, self serving for the two of you, noone else.
nadiaj2727 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Nadia - thank you soo much...I am getting more clarity here today than I have over the past three years of my 'relationship'. My MM described me as his addiction - and if I'm honest, he is mine. I just hoped so much we could be friends because the thought of not having him in my life is too much to contemplate. Yet....I have incredible highs and lows being in the middle of this!! I have to keep secrets from my family and friends, I drop everything to see him and play a waiting game day in, day out, getting a text from him can make my day and if I don't it can wreck it make me cry myself to sleep...I drink too much to numb the loneliness when I'm spending yet another night alone.......I don't know where my mind is sometimes, that this is preferable to living an independent, self-sufficient life which I long for in many ways, but which also scares me to death!! Owl - yes I concur, I think I probably would pine for him and be stupid enough to secretly wait for him forever if he was there in my life. I just can't imagine not having him in some small way now that I've found him! How pathetic am I?? Ella, shattering is the right word!!! Aoife, I understand those highs and lows so well. That's one of the reasons I said going into and keeping NC is necessary -- to get ONE thing stable in your life, finally. You will no longer have to wait for his texts, get excited when you get them, be depressed when you don't get them, etc. You just DON'T talk to him/ text him, etc., no matter what. I understand the addiction. I was the same way, but at least you realize it... it took me a long time to realize that it was an addiction and the reason it was so exhilirating was that it was a forbidden affair, and not because I had found my true love and soul mate. I am in counseling now and I realize that I looked to him as my escape from myself. I wasn't completely happy, for a number of reasons, so I was looking to MM to fulfill what was missing in me. Of course, it didn't make me any happier and actually brought EXTRA drama and pain into my life. He was even more miserable than I was, which perhaps is what drew me to him. I finally realized I have to be happy with myself as a complete person before I can be happy in any relationship, and that that relationship wasn't doing anything for me but bringing me down. I had to stop trying to escape myself and face myself. That is really the only good thing that came out of my relationship with xMM -- sometimes I feel it's like I had to do something so stupid and selfish, and get to that really really low point in my life before I could figure out that something was really wrong!, and start working on fixing it. It feels good now to know that I have power and control over my own happiness. If I'm not happy, I'd better do something to fix it... no sense in ignoring the fact that I'm not happy while I wait around for a text from MM to distract me from my unhappiness. (I have so been there girl). It's a never-ending spiral until you decide to start climbing back up on your own. Unfortunately I think both of our MM will be stuck down there for a long time, because they haven't figured that out yet. Therefore we have to do it ourselves. You seem really cool and I can totally relate to you. I wish you didn't have to drink yourself into denial or cry yourself to sleep. I wish I knew you in real life and we could hang out instead of wasting our time even TALKING about stupid lying selfish low life married men. We'd go find ourselves some nice single men who deserve us.
Aoife Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Yip...I would love that!!!!!!!! How you described yourself Nadia is where I am today...you give me a lot of hope actually, and I feel that maybe it isn't impossible for me to bring all this to an end soon. It is no fun walking on eggshells around him in case I upset him and he doesn't contact me, or freaking out if he doesn't in case he's mad with me or tired of me!!! I feel my mental health is deteriorating as I am consumed with thoughts of him, day and night. He suggests things to include in our lovemaking that I would NEVER contemplate ordinarily but with him I feel I want to please him but also like I am some kind of fantastic girlfriend who goes to all these lengths to 'please her man'.... I really sometimes just want to run away and just be by myself, away from him, but it scares me too. Which you are right - I hadn't thought of it before, but I don't know anyone he knows and haven't a clue about that side of his life. That's the reality really of all this.
whichwayisup Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 It is no fun walking on eggshells around him in case I upset him and he doesn't contact me, or freaking out if he doesn't in case he's mad with me or tired of me!!! I feel my mental health is deteriorating as I am consumed with thoughts of him, day and night. Would you put up with that stuff if he was a single guy and this was a regular relationship? Fact that he is married and you two are NOT committed to eachother at all, you're staying by choice, to put up with the crap, to feel unhappy, and lose yourself in the process. Please consider counselling to help you gain the strength, to fix yourself, deal with your own issues, so you can end this affair.
lovernotafighter Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 If a couple had a real date... that means it will lead to a real relationship? Have you not had any real conversations with him? Don't you both share anything in that way? Is it just a PA? I don't think it takes a real date.. or a few of them to make it a real thing between two people. It takes so much more than that... even if you're seeing a MM or SG. I agree, what real is in the eye of the beholder if you will.
nadiaj2727 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Some time away from him would probably do you good. It sounds like you are realizing that the relationship is damaging your spirit and mental health. Something like this is hard to get out of and get over, but even harder to figure out why we entered into it in the first place. The easy way out, in my opinion, is to stay stuck where we are and continue down the same path because it's too "scary" to change. The harder but stronger way is to think "this isn't working for me" and start doing something else. Maybe you should try counseling. It has worked wonders for me. It's helped me see how my past upbringing influences who I am and how it has influenced my decisions. Not as an excuse or a justification, but as a realization of what is wrong inside me and how to fix it. It is really, really liberating to know myself and to know what decisions are right for me and to not need any man, especially a man who is married to another woman!, to make me happy. I'm not saying I've come full circle or that I'm completely sure I'll always make the right decision or whatever. In fact I still have a lot of guilt and baggage about having been involved with xMM (who I still work with -- so that's really hard). But it's a great start and I never realized how important it is to *examine* my actions and explore my thinking/ feelings/ influences. Counseling really helps with that (if you have a good counselor... I actually tried a couple and only recently have I found a very helpful one who I click with.)
nadiaj2727 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 I agree, what real is in the eye of the beholder if you will. If it's just a secret affair that only the people in the affair know about, then it is only "real" to the people that are involved in it. More than that -- honestly I think it's only a real "relationship" to the OW -- from what I've seen and read most MM consider their marriage the real relationship and their affair with OW just something extra on the side. I think there is an objective truth -- and if it has to be hidden, it's not a real relationship, it's just a fantasy in OW's head that she tries to live out. Who could be satisfied with that forever? Not me. I am not trying to be harsh, I am just saying, as a former OW I know exactly what OP means when she says it wasn't really "real" except in her mind/ hard.
lovernotafighter Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 If it's just a secret affair that only the people in the affair know about, then it is only "real" to the people that are involved in it. More than that -- honestly I think it's only a real "relationship" to the OW -- from what I've seen and read most MM consider their marriage the real relationship and their affair with OW just something extra on the side. I think there is an objective truth -- and if it has to be hidden, it's not a real relationship, it's just a fantasy in OW's head that she tries to live out. Who could be satisfied with that forever? Not me. I am not trying to be harsh, I am just saying, as a former OW I know exactly what OP means when she says it wasn't really "real" except in her mind/ hard. well perhaps we all see the word as real being different. to me if it is tangible and causes a reaction with in myself or my partner is certainly seems pretty real to me.
nadiaj2727 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 well perhaps we all see the word as real being different. to me if it is tangible and causes a reaction with in myself or my partner is certainly seems pretty real to me. Yes, I understand that to the OW the relationship is very real. I agree that we see the word "real" as different. When I was OW I thought I was so in love with xMM and we were each other's world. It felt like a very real love and a very real relationship. But then I started to realize that to the outside world, we were nothing, we didn't even exist. :-( I just started to think... what if MM died or got hurt? No one would even know to inform me. How real is what we have if I would be one of the last to know, instead of the first to know, of anything bad that happened to him? And after I read about so many OW getting thrown under the bus and/or ignored after D-Day, I started to think, what would happen if we got caught? I would see how "real" his love was for me then. He may have loved me, but not enough to do what it took to be with me in public and make our relationship "real" to the rest of the world. So it started to feel not very real to me, and that's why I can relate to OP when she said that they never had anything "real"... nothing recognized by the rest of the world, that is. I agree with you that if it feels real to the couple, and the rest of the world doesn't matter to them, then it's real to them. It's just that it started to matter to me so it didn't feel like I had something real.
Author showupbutbroken Posted February 23, 2008 Author Posted February 23, 2008 I think only when you are really over him can you worry about whether or not you could be friends. And the reality is, if you are over him, you probably won't want to be his friend anymore. My MM was a major part of my life but I can see the advantages he jumped on because at the end of the day, I loved him more than he loved me. It isn't about the presence of love, it's about enough love.
sadbuttrue Posted February 23, 2008 Posted February 23, 2008 i agree with lover about a relationship being real if the two people experiencing said relationship feel that it is. my MM used to get so upset with me when i even hinted that our relationship might not be real. to him, what we had/have was so very real, i was the one who tried to deny it to myself mostly to protect my heart i think. anyone who has had someone look into their eyes with such love and passion can not deny the realness there. there is no faking some things.
Author showupbutbroken Posted February 23, 2008 Author Posted February 23, 2008 I would agree the look involves passion but why do we all love the romantic comedies? They are able to fake that amazing look of love, the actors are usually not in love. I know that look, when my MM gave it to me it made me weak in the knees. Love is about action, about putting someone's needs as a priority. My MM was there for me, each time it was convenient for him to be. Loving someone has nothing to do with convenience, you are just there. Plus most MM are more concerned with what the outside world thinks than what their OW needs. And, the reason I can go NC and let him go on with his life is because I love him. I recognize that I need to sacrifice my own desires so I can let him go and both of us can work to find our happiness. It hurts like hell but to me, that is what loving him means. Being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and walk away...
9Lives Posted February 23, 2008 Posted February 23, 2008 Plus, when MM says "can we still be friends?" what he really means is "can we still sleep together some time?" No MM really wants to be just "pals" with someone he used to have an affair with... what he really wants is an affair, but he will settle for what he can get in the meantime and HOPE to have the affair start back up. Plus, how are you going to get over MM if he is still lingering in your thoughts, conversations, daily life as a "friend"? You will always feel that MM has control over your life and you will always be "waiting" on him in some way, and tied to him in some way, until *you* gain complete control over the situation by going NC. It will make you feel stronger and in control, no longer on his "string." Going NC is hard at first but then it feels really really good, strong and peaceful. You won't have any more ups and downs and falling into passion and then depression, etc... believe me, that can still be there if you are still "pals" just like it was there when you were in the affair. So by going NC you are cutting out the drama and the craziness that came with the affir. You are living your own life, for you, without MM, and you will start to feel like "Wow, I can do this, I am in charge of my own life and no longer agonizing over what's going to happen or waiting for MM to do something. And it feels really, really good!" I believe (and I have learned this from my own experience) that the only way to stop being in an affair is to make a clean break, realize that the situation is just not right for you, and move on from it, because what's the point of being "pals" with a married man anyway? My xMM really wanted to be friends; he claimed I was his best friend and I began to think, "well, if that's true (you start to question whether ANYTHING's true after thinking about going NC), then that is really messed up thinking... he is married, his wife should be his best friend. What kind of a married guy is 'best friends' with a woman a lot younger than him that he was having an affair with but didn't want to get out of his marriage enough to be with?" I gained a *lot* of new perspective after going NC and I realized he was still trying to cake-eat me!! No fair buddy. I didn't want him to depend on me for ANYTHING (even friendship... which to him equaled a shoulder to cry on, ego stroking from having a young attractive woman around as his "friend", and the chance for sex in the future, if he caught me in a weak moment) if he couldn't give me EVERYTHING I deserved, which included an open, public, committed relationship. Even if I was his "best friend", I would still be his dirty little secret, because he wasn't about to reveal to the world including his wife that I was really his best friend. And that is just sad. You don't want to date OR be friends with someone who can't be PROUD of your relationship to the rest of the world. I think if you are his "pal" you are still giving him something he doesn't deserve -- how would his wife feel about him being "friends" with you, and how will you feel when you realize it is all still about HIM trying to have the best of both worlds, and not about you being able to move on from that situation? So there is my very firm opinion about NC. But it is easier to preach it now than it was to practice it at first. I was very, very weak and gave up NC at points until I *finally* realized it was the only thing that would really "set me free", so to speak, of this self-destructive relationship. I think of my relationship with xMM as a fire... I was completely attracted to it and further ignited it by fueling it, and then it destroyed me, it burned me down!!! And time after time I was tempted by the same damn fire, even as a burn victim. I kept getting dangerously close to playing with it all over again. It takes a long time of feeling your hair being singed by those flames to finally take a step back and say, "what am I doing standing so close to this damn fire." To me, NC = pouring water on that fire and building a new little garden over where it used to be, and tending to that garden to make sure it stays pretty and doesn't become a place where any new fires could ignite. I can't do all of that and have ANY contact with MM/ the fire, because the two are opposites. I don't know if that makes any sense LOL but that is the way I think of it in my little world. That makes alot of sense. You made the right move with all the right thoughts on the table hands down!!! I too took that stand about 2 weeks ago and I cant go back. I miss him and think about him everyday but I am still very angry about everything that has happen and I just feel alot of pain from his lack of honesty. I have blocked his emails and took his phone number out my phone. I told him I hate him and he is not a man. I just cant stand him right now. As time goes on, I will be better and not so angry but at this time I have nothing for him. I dont want his friendship,love,or anything. I want to be free and even though we shared some very great times together I just feel like I want to just escape the whole thing. There is still alot of pain there
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